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Pokerstars is an online poker site. Pokerstrategy is an educational training site. They are not the same site. The TSL3 is sponsored by pokerstrategy.com. |
On April 16 2011 04:22 thebigdonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:19 Manit0u wrote:From LP.net On April 15 2011 14:13 VanDerMeyde wrote:
Conspiracy to Commit Bank Fraud and Wire Fraud
ISAI SCHEINBERG,RAYMOND BITAR,BRENT BECKLEY,NELSON BURTNICK,PAUL TATE,RYAN LANG,BRADLEY FRANZEN,IRA RUBIN,CHAD ELIE
30 years in prison;
fine of $1,000,000 or twice the gross gain or loss;
5 years supervised release;
forfeiture of proceeds of offense
Money Laundering Conspiracy
ISAI SCHEINBERG,RAYMOND BITAR,BRENT BECKLEY,NELSON BURTNICK,PAUL TATE,RYAN LANG,BRADLEY FRANZEN,IRA RUBIN,CHAD ELIE,JOHN CAMPOS
20 years in prison;
fine of $500,000 or twice the amount laundered;
3 years supervised release;
forfeiture of proceeds of offense
Is that who's getting charged and what they can get? There's a link to the Department of Justice pdf of the filing in the OP. It details the charges.
Oh, sorry, not really in the mood for reading legal stuff in .pdf format right now 
On April 16 2011 04:24 Propane wrote:
If the United States were acting rationally they would simply tax cocaine at a reasonable rate and allow drug addicts to continue doing what they enjoy. If you live in the United States or any other jurisdiction which is attempting to ban cocaine please contact your representative and let them know that you are in favor of allowing people to do drugs.
By outlawing cocaine the United States is wasting resources enforcing a silly law when they could instead allow a business to thrive and produce entertainment for millions of people.
Additionally, allowing companies to operate inside the USA would allow better consumer protection.
See now how bad your argument sounds?
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On April 16 2011 04:01 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:00 Thrill wrote:
PokerStrategy.com TSL4?
Bye bye if this turns out to be the real deal. poker strategy is not a gambling site, it's a strategy site, big difference.
Strategy sites for a specific thing don't do well if that specific thing doesn't exist.
-$9k if this ends up being as bad as it could be... sigh tuition
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On April 16 2011 04:10 zTz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:05 jalstar wrote:
...but people with $10000+ bankrolls, especially non-US players who weren't breaking their country's laws, are gonna take action for sure. wait.... is online gambling a crime? I thought that the sites were getting shut down for laundering, fraud, and other crimes, not because of "gambling."
Only certain forms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gambling#United_States
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On April 16 2011 04:17 contraSol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:06 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 04:03 TURKISHRAMBO wrote:On April 16 2011 03:58 jalstar wrote:On April 16 2011 03:54 Nyx wrote:On April 16 2011 03:53 jalstar wrote:
i only have $50 on PS anyway, hopefully my $200 withdrawal echeck from last week clears though. Restraining orders were issued against more than 75 bank accounts used by the poker companies and their payment processors, while five Internet domain names used by the companies to host poker games were seized, federal authorities added in a statement. well -$250 sucks a lot but there are some people with thousands on there, this is huge. is the govt aloud to do this and not give your money back? All i can see is this causing even more unrest and people trying to get their money back using legal action. It's not "your money". It is money that was sitting in the bank account of an entity engaged in a criminal enterprise. The money has been seized as part of a federal criminal investigation. Trying to get your money through legal action against the US government here would be like trying to get your money back from your local drug dealer after he was arrested. Your money is gone. You have a 0% chance of ever getting it back. Yes, it IS my money. I spent countless hours studying poker theory, played and analyzed hundreds of thousands of hands. Don't tell me that isn't my own hard-earned money. They have not seized funds from these sites yet, nor are these sites "criminal organizations." They're based in countries where what they're doing is completely legal, and the US has no jurisdiction. Comparing this with getting back money from a drug dealer demonstrates your ignorance on the subject.
I'm not ignorant of the subject. I'm an attorney in the US and a former online poker player.
The bolded part is particularly laughable. Yes, I understand, you spent a lot of time playing poker. How much effort you put into it has no bearing on its legality or the legality of what the poker sites did with the money they took in - including the money of yours they were holding.
The sites aren't criminal enterprises? You can go argue with the federal indictment. To quote the press release,
The United States also filed a civil money laundering and in rem forfeiture complaint (the "Civil Complaint") against the Poker Companies, their assets, and the assets of several payment processors for the Poker Companies. In addition, restraining orders were issued against more than 75 bank accounts utilized by the Poker Companies and their payment processors
whether or not poker is legal where the companies were based, what they were doing with the money was illegal. Some of that involved activity in the US, and with US financial institutions. Thus, the US has jurisdiction.
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On April 16 2011 04:17 contraSol wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:06 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 04:03 TURKISHRAMBO wrote:On April 16 2011 03:58 jalstar wrote:On April 16 2011 03:54 Nyx wrote:On April 16 2011 03:53 jalstar wrote:
i only have $50 on PS anyway, hopefully my $200 withdrawal echeck from last week clears though. Restraining orders were issued against more than 75 bank accounts used by the poker companies and their payment processors, while five Internet domain names used by the companies to host poker games were seized, federal authorities added in a statement. well -$250 sucks a lot but there are some people with thousands on there, this is huge. is the govt aloud to do this and not give your money back? All i can see is this causing even more unrest and people trying to get their money back using legal action. It's not "your money". It is money that was sitting in the bank account of an entity engaged in a criminal enterprise. The money has been seized as part of a federal criminal investigation. Trying to get your money through legal action against the US government here would be like trying to get your money back from your local drug dealer after he was arrested. Your money is gone. You have a 0% chance of ever getting it back. Yes, it IS my money. I spent countless hours studying poker theory, played and analyzed hundreds of thousands of hands. Don't tell me that isn't my own hard-earned money. They have not seized funds from these sites yet, nor are these sites "criminal organizations." They're based in countries where what they're doing is completely legal, and the US has no jurisdiction. Comparing this with getting back money from a drug dealer demonstrates your ignorance on the subject.
Yet you've spent your money by studying, and then playing, online gambling. No one here is arguing that your effort isn't worth something. Of course it is.
But what has happened, happened. And these companies are going the way of the dodo, like it or not. If any online gambling for-profit companies remain, they are gonna be either heavily regulated in some shape or form, or they pay their taxes just like any other company, period. And YOU - have you reported all your poker earnings on your tax returns?
But back to your study of poker. Can you not take your poker skills and just head down to your poker house of choice or vegas? Why restrict your means of income to online venues only?
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On April 16 2011 04:21 Modafinil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:15 Wohmfg wrote:On April 16 2011 04:07 StarStruck wrote:
It's just one of the risks you take by doing it. :/ No it really isn't. Don't make it sound like it's the poker players' fault for losing the money. This is not something anyone could have ever foreseen. Ever. There were maybe like a few thousand people in the whole world who knew what was going on. Say you get struck by a meteor playing golf. That is not one of the risks of playing golf. I think I just lost my £400 for my euro trip then. While I sympathize with the players who lost money, I think "meteor while playing golf" is a bit over-dramatic. The fact is online poker has always been a grey area, whether it was the passage of the UIGEA in 2006 or just the sites themselves having problems with cheating and shills. A lot of you are probably too young to remember this but online poker has been on the government's radar for almost a decade. It was always a question of WHEN the "meteor" would hit, not IF. That said there was no telling when. It sucks that it happened now, but it was inevitable.
Why are you comparing cheating at online poker to this? They are not the same at all and it isn't relevant. Don't call poker a "grey area".
The UIGEA has nothing to do with me. It should not have affected me.
http://www.pokerstars.com/legislation/uigea/
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On April 16 2011 04:00 Thrill wrote:
PokerStrategy.com TSL4?
Bye bye if this turns out to be the real deal.
PokerStrategy.com is explicity non-US anyways, can't even enter the TSL raffles if you are in the US, so I imagine they will be fine.
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lol i always thought it was weird that it is illegal to gamble online but no one seemed to do anything about it. I know some american's used some friends to initallity transfer money to an account but it's obvious that tons of american ip addresses were constantly playing.
pokerstars, partypoker and all that even sound like american companies. this isn't bullshit like thepiratebay getting fucked over cause they were clearly european and euros shouldn't care about that shit.
but ya really, i don't know why this is illegal. america is the state of liberty and the pursuit of happiness. why can't people gamble their money on the computer? we all know how sexual the computer can get with porno/webcams, why is virtual gambling illegal?
stupid law
edit: that is my unbias testimony as this effects me in no way
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meh for god sake i got 75k on these sites
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On April 16 2011 04:24 Propane wrote:
Just to be clear, the poker companies are not accused of tax avoidance. They are accused of misreporting their transactions as something other than gambling so that they could continue doing business in the USA. This would be like somebody operating a speakeasy during prohibition of reporting their alcohol sales as ice cream sales.
If the United States were acting rationally they would simply tax online gambling at a reasonable rate and allow poker players to continue doing what they enjoy. If you live in the United States or any other jurisdiction which is attempting to ban online gaming please contact your representative and let them know that you are in favor of allowing people to play poker online.
By outlawing online poker the United States is wasting resources enforcing a silly law when they could instead allow a business to thrive and produce entertainment for millions of people.
Additionally, allowing companies to operate inside the USA would allow better consumer protection.
I like your thinking.
could use the same reasoning to legalize weed ^^
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Interesting. My father plays poker as one of his primary sources of income, although for legal reasons he can't play in tournaments. He stopped playing online because of a general lack of trust in the poker companies - switched strictly to casinos a while ago.
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On April 16 2011 04:29 Fayth wrote:meh for god sake i got 75k on these sites
People are withdrawing like crazy man. Maybe you should atleast some of it. :-)
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Does anyone know if this is going to effect Root?
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On April 16 2011 04:29 Fayth wrote:meh for god sake i got 75k on these sites
lol what? you are gonna lose money now cause america slacked for the last 10 years? the fame of these sites means they are legit.
if this truly fucks all the non-american players then it really should turn into an international crisis as big as the last "bubble burst"
i say bigger cause i bet more people play online poker than buy houses in america.
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On April 16 2011 04:28 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:17 contraSol wrote:On April 16 2011 04:06 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 04:03 TURKISHRAMBO wrote:On April 16 2011 03:58 jalstar wrote:On April 16 2011 03:54 Nyx wrote:On April 16 2011 03:53 jalstar wrote:
i only have $50 on PS anyway, hopefully my $200 withdrawal echeck from last week clears though. Restraining orders were issued against more than 75 bank accounts used by the poker companies and their payment processors, while five Internet domain names used by the companies to host poker games were seized, federal authorities added in a statement. well -$250 sucks a lot but there are some people with thousands on there, this is huge. is the govt aloud to do this and not give your money back? All i can see is this causing even more unrest and people trying to get their money back using legal action. It's not "your money". It is money that was sitting in the bank account of an entity engaged in a criminal enterprise. The money has been seized as part of a federal criminal investigation. Trying to get your money through legal action against the US government here would be like trying to get your money back from your local drug dealer after he was arrested. Your money is gone. You have a 0% chance of ever getting it back. Yes, it IS my money. I spent countless hours studying poker theory, played and analyzed hundreds of thousands of hands. Don't tell me that isn't my own hard-earned money. They have not seized funds from these sites yet, nor are these sites "criminal organizations." They're based in countries where what they're doing is completely legal, and the US has no jurisdiction. Comparing this with getting back money from a drug dealer demonstrates your ignorance on the subject. Yet you've spent your money by studying, and then playing, online gambling. No one here is arguing that your effort isn't worth something. Of course it is. But what has happened, happened. And these companies are going the way of the dodo, like it or not. If any online gambling for-profit companies remain, they are gonna be either heavily regulated in some shape or form, or they pay their taxes just like any other company, period. And YOU - have you reported all your poker earnings on your tax returns? But back to your study of poker. Can you not take your poker skills and just head down to your poker house of choice or vegas? Why restrict your means of income to online venues only?
Maybe online poker will die in USA. There are plenty of other countries where people will still be able to play it.
It's much harder to make money in live play because you can't put in the volume of games. You need a much bigger edge to be able to solely play live games and make a profit. You can play so many more games simultaneously online.
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I feel afraid. ( I'm going to lose a lot of money if this goes south.
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On April 16 2011 04:29 Fayth wrote:meh for god sake i got 75k on these sites
Ouch dude ><
Hope they actually turn the money over to the owners...since there is pretty much no way ordinary users could have known about the money laundering, and online poker itself is theoretically not explicitly illegal (grey area I think?).
Though the cynical side of me thinks this is going to all end up in treasury coffers...
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On April 16 2011 04:28 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2011 04:21 Modafinil wrote:On April 16 2011 04:15 Wohmfg wrote:On April 16 2011 04:07 StarStruck wrote:
It's just one of the risks you take by doing it. :/ No it really isn't. Don't make it sound like it's the poker players' fault for losing the money. This is not something anyone could have ever foreseen. Ever. There were maybe like a few thousand people in the whole world who knew what was going on. Say you get struck by a meteor playing golf. That is not one of the risks of playing golf. I think I just lost my £400 for my euro trip then. While I sympathize with the players who lost money, I think "meteor while playing golf" is a bit over-dramatic. The fact is online poker has always been a grey area, whether it was the passage of the UIGEA in 2006 or just the sites themselves having problems with cheating and shills. A lot of you are probably too young to remember this but online poker has been on the government's radar for almost a decade. It was always a question of WHEN the "meteor" would hit, not IF. That said there was no telling when. It sucks that it happened now, but it was inevitable. Why are you comparing cheating at online poker to this? They are not the same at all and it isn't relevant. Don't call poker a "grey area". The UIGEA has nothing to do with me. It should not have affected me. http://www.pokerstars.com/legislation/uigea/
I don't know how many times I have to explain this.
The poker sites were allegedly engaged in fraud and money laundering. Whether or not you were legally depositing there, they were allegedly doing illegal things with your money. As a result, the assets of the companies are being seized - including your money.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Am I right to assume that all the money will be percieved as evidence in these cases?And as such will not be released until the court cases are over? Or will the money just be gone because it involves illegal gambling?
I have also taken a look at the PDF format(relax, its only 7 pages)
Violation of Unlawful Internet GamblingEnforcement Act (UIGIEA) - FullTilt Poker, other poker sites too. Does anyone know how this law works?
In any case this kind of operation probably took months if not multiple years of planning. I'd be suprised if they didn't have an ironclad case.
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EPT
