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Please guys, stay on topic. This thread is about the situation in Iraq and Syria. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On February 16 2016 20:35 xM(Z wrote: based on what do kurds claim land in Syria and Iraq?. what's the history here?. Based on what does anyone claim land? Israel is like the only country in the world who has it's right to exist 'confirmed'. No other country on the world even has a right to exist, only Israel in the eyes of some. | ||
KwarK
United States43280 Posts
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
Israel was merely asking for the Palestinians, not an already independent country, to accept the morality behind their own suffering. Why did Israel ask that? Because it is too heartbreaking for anyone to accept that, so it would never be accepted, which is exactly what Israel really wanted. Canada doesn't have the right to exist. | ||
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KwarK
United States43280 Posts
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
All the claims I made can be backed up with mainstream opinion or Israeli authority citations. If all you say is 'I disagree', I can assure you, no one should care about that. Opinions on subjects are 1% of the value of quality posts. Arguments are the other 99%. If you don't want to argue, don't post. Anyway, the Kurds were there earlier than the Turks. Not even the Turks deny that. Not that that really matters for those are were born today. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11647 Posts
On February 18 2016 01:32 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Really stupid? Haha, that's lauchable. I guess when you are biased the quality of your debating cannot be continuous throughout all subjects. Once the point of bias has been reached, there has to be some discontinuty. All the claims I made can be backed up with mainstream opinion or Israeli authority citations. If all you say is 'I disagree', I can assure you, no one should care about that. Opinions on subjects are 1% of the value of quality posts. Arguments are the other 99%. If you don't want to argue, don't post. Anyway, the Kurds were there earlier than the Turks. Not even the Turks deny that. Not that that really matters for those are were born today. Your point is that if the UN does not explicitly say "x country has the right to exist", it does not have that. Kwarks point is that such a statement only gets made if that existence is threatened. Noone is threatening Canadas existence, and thus noone needs to point out that Canada has the right to exist. In fact, if you wanted to do that, you would probably mostly get a lot of weird looks. If you get the surrounding nations to agree that a nation has a right to exist, you have an argument to make if they try to threaten that existence. In the absence of any threat, that confirmation is not really important to anyone. Thus, your argument is indeed really stupid. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18132 Posts
While I don't find the chart particularly enlightening, the analysis is decent. This conflict is going nowhere any time soon.  | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
- US won by betting on the kurds; by arming them, they balanced Turkey in the region and also get to be represented in Syria's politics by the syrian kurds - Russia won; obvious - the dream team Turkey, Saudis, Quatar, Israel lost - EU lost by proxy(with them putting their money on Turkey and all); they're getting fucked now by both US and Russia. - the rest will just die or go underground start terrorist cells and do terrorist attacks next will be Libya and SE Asia. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14048 Posts
On February 18 2016 03:11 Acrofales wrote: http://www.vox.com/2016/2/16/11024056/syria-war-chart While I don't find the chart particularly enlightening, the analysis is decent. This conflict is going nowhere any time soon. The increasing Russian involvement with the Syrian regime has signaled a change in the war though. Cutting off ISIS's oil pipeline to turkey while taking Aleppo is a huge development. Its the equivalent of the Union taking New Orleans from the confederacy in the US civil war. The kurds will squash the northern half of ISIS If turkey doesn't intervene and this will be the death blow for ISIS in the long run, lacking reinforcement and cash Russian backed Syrian forces will retake the country before coming to the negotiating table with the kurds. Or the kurds will go to war with Russia and the syrian regime in full force. Or the turks will intervene and go to war with russia and the syrian regime. Or Israel will cold cock Hezbollah with its greatest opportunity to secure its northern border in its existence. Or the Saudis will open a front in the south. If anything the conflict is going to so somewhere fast soon. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14048 Posts
On February 18 2016 03:33 xM(Z wrote: that dude just over complicates things. if Turkey doesn't do something stupid: - US won by betting on the kurds; by arming them, they balanced Turkey in the region and also get to be represented in Syria's politics by the syrian kurds - Russia won; obvious - the dream team Turkey, Saudis, Quatar, Israel lost - EU lost by proxy(with them putting their money on Turkey and all); they're getting fucked now by both US and Russia. - the rest will just die or go underground start terrorist cells and do terrorist attacks next will be Libya and SE Asia. What has Israel lost? Hezbollah has lost more troops in this civil war then it ever has against Israel. The greatest threat to Jewish existence is corps of Syrian armor streaming down the Golan heights, that will not happen in a generation at the very least. There is something even worse then Hitler and it was filled with Islamic looking people. If anything Isreal is the real winner of the civil war and it didn't have to do anything but keep its mouth shut. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
And even if a country's existance is at stake, let's take North Korea as an example, that still doesn't mean it has a right to exist exactly because it is threatened. If China threatens Taiwan, that doesn't mean Taiwan magically gets the right to exist that China can never have. The real problem with Israel is that it has to be a jewish state. You can't be a jewish state and have a large minority be second rank citizens. Not in a civilized democratic world. Israel is already filled with arab values, though Israeli's call them jewish. This is not sustainable. Israel will have to change it's way or it will collapse from the inside eventually. Of course no country has the right to exist. A country isn't a person. When tomorrow the people of Belgium decide their country stops existing, then it stops existing. The will of a nation-state legal construct cannot be put over the will of even a single person. Countries do have the right not to be destroyed. That's what Israel has, what it needs and it need not ask for something more. Same for Kurds vs Turkey vs Syria. Every people has the right of self-determination. The interests of the nation-state shaping how peopel live, that only leads to needless suffering. In the end, Turkey can't let the Kurdish provinces go exactly because it has no right to exist if it can't show it exists no matter what. There is a reason the leaders of nations are so keen not to allow secession. Just look at Spain for an exellent example. The problem with Israel is that the bias we all have towards Israel clouds the debate we may have over other countries. It muddles the debate and the use of fair arguments. Lol, that chart. IS is fighting everyone except Israel. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21969 Posts
On February 18 2016 03:33 xM(Z wrote: that dude just over complicates things. if Turkey doesn't do something stupid: - US won by betting on the kurds; by arming them, they balanced Turkey in the region and also get to be represented in Syria's politics by the syrian kurds - Russia won; obvious - the dream team Turkey, Saudis, Quatar, Israel lost - EU lost by proxy(with them putting their money on Turkey and all); they're getting fucked now by both US and Russia. - the rest will just die or go underground start terrorist cells and do terrorist attacks next will be Libya and SE Asia. le what? The US won by keeping the conflict going. They dont suffer from it and it is draining all their enemies (ISIS, Iran, Russia mainly) Russia lost because the war still has no end in sight and is draining an economy already stretched to breaking point. The EU lost because they didn't bet at all and hoped the problem would go away if they wished hard enough. They certainly didn't put their money on Turkey. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14048 Posts
On February 18 2016 03:47 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Let's be real. Israel's existance hasn't been threatened in a long long time. The only danger to Israel's existance is Israel's internal politics and Israel putting expansion over the safety of their own citizens and the social cohesion of it's peoples. And even if a country's existance is at stake, let's take North Korea as an example, that still doesn't mean it has a right to exist exactly because it is threatened. If China threatens Taiwan, that doesn't mean Taiwan magically gets the right to exist that China can never have. The real problem with Israel is that it has to be a jewish state. You can't be a jewish state and have a large minority be second rank citizens. Not in a civilized democratic world. Israel is already filled with arab values, though Israeli's call them jewish. This is not sustainable. Israel will have to change it's way or it will collapse from the inside eventually. Of course no country has the right to exist. A country isn't a person. When tomorrow the people of Belgium decide their country stops existing, then it stops existing. The will of a nation-state legal construct cannot be put over the will of even a single person. Countries do have the right not to be destroyed. That's what Israel has, what it needs and it need not ask for something more. Same for Kurds vs Turkey vs Syria. Every people has the right of self-determination. The interests of the nation-state shaping how peopel live, that only leads to needless suffering. In the end, Turkey can't let the Kurdish provinces go exactly because it has no right to exist if it can't show it exists no matter what. There is a reason the leaders of nations are so keen not to allow secession. Just look at Spain for an exellent example. The problem with Israel is that the bias we all have towards Israel clouds the debate we may have over other countries. It muddles the debate and the use of fair arguments. Lol, that chart. IS is fighting everyone except Israel. Iran having a nuke threatens Israel. The Intifada's threatenes Israel's existence. Hamas tossing rockets into civilian areas threatens Israels existence. Arabs In Isreal are not second class citizens and have the same rights (much better rights then any arab state I might add) as a Isreali citizen. The holocaust happened and we've treated Jews like shit for hundreds apon hundreds of years Ofc we have a bias twords them now. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
1) Iran doesn't have "nukes" (why don't you call them nuclear weapons instead of "nuke".) 2) None of those reasons threatens Isreal as a country. 3 )When walls are built and homes demolished and their citizens segregated, that's very much not first class citizens. 4) Who are this "we"? I am not you. They are not you. "We" haven't treated Jews like shit for hundreds of years. Not that it gives a special victimhood card even if it was true. "We" don't neccessarily have the same biases you do. So what remains of your post? | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21969 Posts
On February 18 2016 04:50 Sermokala wrote: Iran having a nuke threatens Israel. The Intifada's threatenes Israel's existence. Hamas tossing rockets into civilian areas threatens Israels existence. Arabs In Isreal are not second class citizens and have the same rights (much better rights then any arab state I might add) as a Isreali citizen. The holocaust happened and we've treated Jews like shit for hundreds apon hundreds of years Ofc we have a bias twords them now. Iran doesnt have a nuke, Hamas is a threat to citizens within Isreal but not to the state itself. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On February 18 2016 04:50 Sermokala wrote: Iran having a nuke threatens Israel. No. And if you read between the lines, Israel has admitted they don't believe this either. Iran having a nuke threatens sphere of influence of Saudi Arabia. The Intifada's threatenes Israel's existence. Hamas tossing rockets into civilian areas threatens Israels existence. Depends on what you mean by Israel. Of course it threatens the existence greater Israel Israeli leaders have strived for. Does it threanen a viable Israeli nation? No. I don't know why you bring up Palestinian violence when the Israel violence is much larger. Maybe you truly believe Iron Dome is saving thousands of lives. If so, the Iron Dome is worth it's money because it does not shoot down rockets as far as we know. All it does is give Israel a claim they are under a heavy attack, justifiying harsh retalliation, while there are barely any destruction or any deaths. Palestinians shoot unguided firework bombs with shrapnell into Israel. They can't aim them. They just shoot and hope it hits something. Yes, most hope it kills Israeli babies. But you can't accuse them for deliberately aiming at civilians. They have the right to defend themselves and fight Israel until there are no more Israeli's on Palestinian territory. Will you speak out in support for this right? Palestinian are really cowards. They fight among themselves and don't have the balls to stand up to Israel. I have no love for Hezbollah, but at least they don't chicken out. Palestinians always do. If you don't want freedom enough, maybe you don't deserve it and maybe that's why they don't have it. Also, what about the threats to the existence of Palestine. Arabs In Isreal are not second class citizens and have the same rights (much better rights then any arab state I might add) as a Isreali citizen. If you mean arabs with an Israeli nationality, they kind of are already and it will be worse when they get close to a majority, which they will eventually. But what about those that live in the west bank and even those in Gaza. They live in Israel. They have been part of Israel for a long long time. Yet they are trapped in an open air prison. Having the right to vote isn't even on a long list of basic rights a Palestinian would wrote down they are withheld. Either they are not Israel, and Israel should retreat, or they are and they should be given all the rights of any Israeli. The holocaust happened and we've treated Jews like shit for hundreds apon hundreds of years Ofc we have a bias twords them now. Really? It all boils down to applying to Israel-Palestine what you would apply to any similar case, ignoring the labels 'Israel' or 'Jewish'. If you paint out these words and ask a person, they will suddenly answer differently. People bend their principles to accomodate Israel, because Israel. But why really? The west gains very little for supporting Israel. It is an irrational foreign policy and an unjust one. Of course we have treated the jewish people like shit. But I don't see how that means we should treat even more people like shit. Maybe we should not make the mistakes of our grandfathers. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
On February 18 2016 03:52 Gorsameth wrote: le what? The US won by keeping the conflict going. They dont suffer from it and it is draining all their enemies (ISIS, Iran, Russia mainly) Russia lost because the war still has no end in sight and is draining an economy already stretched to breaking point. The EU lost because they didn't bet at all and hoped the problem would go away if they wished hard enough. They certainly didn't put their money on Turkey. well i bet that the war in Syria will end in at most 2 weeks; not across the whole Syria obviously, but there will be a(nother) peace agreement and the political games will begin. EU bet on Turkey = them succeeding in creating a gas pipe between Israel and Turkey that would pass through a turkish(more or less) controlled Syria. remember the bullshit that happened in december or january with weird EU demands about some Israel imported goods labeling(they demanded the label to have as provenience origin Palestine or WestBank occupied something; can't remember exactly)?. that was EU negotiating the gas price but they're fucked now. Edit: US gets squeezed by China as we speak(chinese built an artificial island in South China Sea and equipped it with anti missile equipment - something similar with Russia's S300) ; they can't afford bullshit now. | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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Sermokala
United States14048 Posts
On February 18 2016 04:55 Dangermousecatdog wrote: And none of those "reasons" mean that Isreal amd Isreal solely has a right to exist. Also: 1) Iran doesn't have "nukes" (why don't you call them nuclear weapons instead of "nuke".) 2) None of those reasons threatens Isreal as a country. 3 )When walls are built and homes demolished and their citizens segregated, that's very much not first class citizens. 4) Who are this "we"? I am not you. They are not you. "We" haven't treated Jews like shit for hundreds of years. Not that it gives a special victimhood card even if it was true. "We" don't neccessarily have the same biases you do. So what remains of your post? 1. Iran was trying to get a nuke 2. How do they not threaten Isreal as a country? 3. Palestine isn't apart of Isreal? 4. We as in white euro people. Read a book about History and the jews. I'm sorry but if you are speaking English, are using computers, and generaly enjoy the light of civilization you concede that jews get to play the victim card for a few things. Citizens are the State. The rockets Hamas were launching were indiscriminate terror attacks on the nation as a whole. Attacking the governments ability to keep its citizens safe has to at least be apart of a social contract. + Show Spoiler [Trulo's post] + On February 18 2016 05:16 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: No. And if you read between the lines, Israel has admitted they don't believe this either. Iran having a nuke threatens sphere of influence of Saudi Arabia. Depends on what you mean by Israel. Of course it threatens the existence greater Israel Israeli leaders have strived for. Does it threanen a viable Israeli nation? No. I don't know why you bring up Palestinian violence when the Israel violence is much larger. Maybe you truly believe Iron Dome is saving thousands of lives. If so, the Iron Dome is worth it's money because it does not shoot down rockets as far as we know. All it does is give Israel a claim they are under a heavy attack, justifiying harsh retalliation, while there are barely any destruction or any deaths. Palestinians shoot unguided firework bombs with shrapnell into Israel. They can't aim them. They just shoot and hope it hits something. Yes, most hope it kills Israeli babies. But you can't accuse them for deliberately aiming at civilians. They have the right to defend themselves and fight Israel until there are no more Israeli's on Palestinian territory. Will you speak out in support for this right? Palestinian are really cowards. They fight among themselves and don't have the balls to stand up to Israel. I have no love for Hezbollah, but at least they don't chicken out. Palestinians always do. If you don't want freedom enough, maybe you don't deserve it and maybe that's why they don't have it. Also, what about the threats to the existence of Palestine. If you mean arabs with an Israeli nationality, they kind of are already and it will be worse when they get close to a majority, which they will eventually. But what about those that live in the west bank and even those in Gaza. They live in Israel. They have been part of Israel for a long long time. Yet they are trapped in an open air prison. Having the right to vote isn't even on a long list of basic rights a Palestinian would wrote down they are withheld. Either they are not Israel, and Israel should retreat, or they are and they should be given all the rights of any Israeli. Really? It all boils down to applying to Israel-Palestine what you would apply to any similar case, ignoring the labels 'Israel' or 'Jewish'. If you paint out these words and ask a person, they will suddenly answer differently. People bend their principles to accomodate Israel, because Israel. But why really? The west gains very little for supporting Israel. It is an irrational foreign policy and an unjust one. Of course we have treated the jewish people like shit. But I don't see how that means we should treat even more people like shit. Maybe we should not make the mistakes of our grandfathers. This is just incoherent so its hard to accurately respond to. "greater Israel" is something I've never heard of and I take it that its taken from some weird Balkan "greater Serbia" propaganda. How can Isreal be inaccurate that they're not under attack when the rockets are being launched at them. I don't know what you consider "harsh retaliation" but Israels air strikes are the most moral attacks the world has ever seen. drooping leaflets about when you're going to bomb and phoning ahead to the building they're going to bomb is worlds ahead of what anyone has ever been expected to do. What in the fuck do you think "unguided firework bombs with shrapnel" are? They're rockets that are made in Iran and shipped over to Hamas. This isn't disputed by anyone even the harshest critics of Isreals responses to Hamas. You can accuse them of fireing at civilians when they're aiming them twords civilian centers. They're doing this to kill civilians and the fact that you're saying that they're hoping that it kills Israeli babies is whats fucked up. Then you go insulting Palestinians saying how they don't deserve freedom. If you have any proof about your last point I would very much enjoy seeing that. The west gains very much by supporting a country that values women over countries that don't value women. The west gains very much from supporting a country with a modern capitalist industry over those that can't get past the "you can't kill people who disagree with you stage" of nation building. | ||
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