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On April 18 2011 20:59 venage wrote:
19%?! REALLY?!
The thing is, True Finns aren't just an anti-immigration party. They're a populistic party, against giving out hundreds of millions in bailouts for fraudulent countries, against taking in more refugees, against raising the minimum age of receiving pension. You get the deal.
Politics are about compromise. You're lucky if you've found a party that fits your ideology 100%. For the rest of us, we need to find a party that match our thoughts and/or beliefs the most.
That's most likely a reason why the percentage is so high, people may look at it like this: "Well, I agree we shouldn't give our money away. If they don't pay back our pension money is in danger. Oh, and I agree the minimum age of pension shouldn't be raised. I'm not so sure about this whole immigration deal, though."
That would be 2/3 of things they agree with, that you might not find from other parties.
--
But anyway, think I'm done here. I don't even really care about politics, just thought to write my own opinions and thoughts as to what has happened.  Time to play some starcraft.
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Instead of tackling the root of the problems, they attack the consequences. This is what all those populist right wing parties in every European country do. Easy solutions for complex problems, swallow the propaganda, as if it works.
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Rightwing nationalist parties have been gaining ground in scandinavia these last elections. In DK they are called the Danish Folkparty and in sweden Sverigedemokraterne, they are all anti EU and anti immigration.
Its pretty embarrasing imo. especially when they like in DK actualy get some power in parlament and begin making stupid protectionist laws.
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On April 18 2011 21:35 BlackFlag wrote:
Instead of tackling the root of the problems, they attack the consequences. This is what all those populist right wing parties in every European country do. Easy solutions for complex problems, swallow the propaganda, as if it works.
yes! exactly! couldn't have put it better myself. I personally don't get how 20% of the people can just jump on the bandwagon and don't realize how the long term consequences will affect us.
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Nazi party, political disease, hate party, if it were so I would have voted for them, however, it is not. Nice rhetorics people, TrueFinns are not anti-immigration, they just oppose the harmful types of immigration.
They are definately not a hate party, even some of the party members are black or other kinds of immigrants.
There's a lot of discussion about immigration at the moment and in the near past. Basically we are paying some of the best money in Europe for the immigrants who are never even tempted to work due to the system. Also, a lot of the less informed immigrant youths are criminals or harbor a violent attitude towards white skinned people (Yes, it's called racisms no matter whom does it).
And the reason for these views? I've never seen a black man in my life? I fear the unknown. Wrong, I lived next to the one of the worst immigration zones in Finland for years. Everytime I'd come from drinking in Helsinki, I'd have to walk through the immigrant infested area. Even without any visible signs of my political views, I'd bump in troubles due to my white skin (Yeah, this is the reason why I support far-right).
Whilst I've never been hateful towards individual persons, I detest immigration as a whole, because I see the lack of respect in every day life. I work as a shop clerk in eastern Helsinki at the moment, and about 50% of the customer base are immigrants.
Refugees are the worst group of immigrants, they stick to their own ways, and expect everyone else to follow. I've been called racist because someone's credit card did not work (no money, is that my fault?) and whilst I voice heavy dislike for the immigrants I NEVER allow it to show in my work.
Then again, the people whom have been raised into western culture, and have the money to travel (middle class american blacks for example) are pretty nice to deal with.
Anyways, enough about me. I'm just saying, that TrueFinns ain't exactly the nazis who want to gas six million jews. They mean well, whilst a bit uneducated, they are not exactly hateful towards the people who behave well. Just the rotten eggs who ruin it for everyone. Most of the Finns who voted for TrueFinns due to immigration policies either live near to the ghettoes or were just concerned for the absurd amounts of money we give to them. Neither of which we should have to bear, when you check places like malmö, you see why we don't want same future.
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On April 18 2011 21:35 BlackFlag wrote:
Instead of tackling the root of the problems, they attack the consequences. This is what all those populist right wing parties in every European country do. Easy solutions for complex problems, swallow the propaganda, as if it works.
Sums it up pretty nice. As for the finns who are worried about their reputation: Other european countries are definitely worried. The fact that a democratic country with a high standard of education jumps off the wagon (or at least one fifth of the population would support such move) as soon as there are bad times is worrisome. Especially if the population of finnland doesn't seem to care about europe. I don't like the deficit criesis either, but right now it hits the greece population the hardest (check out the cuts they make, after that everybody can just lulz at your 30k immigrants a year). Is the average citizen of greece responsible? Everybody should know that ain't the case.
European union is about cooperation, we share the good times as well as the bad times. This is the only way to ensure that the future in europe is peaceful. Imagine if Germany, France or the United Kingdom would suddenly give a shit about Finnland and start protecting the market/block educated people from moving to finnland etc. Not to mention that Finnland is insignificant and can only protect itselft against superpowers with the help of the European Union.
So yeah, if you oppose true finns that is good, but people need to know and you need to fight far right/racism/isolation policies. Right now we definitely hear too little about it.
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Geez, people who know nothing about Finnish politics or Finnish way of life are whining about the way our nation votes.
TrueFinns are not even half what the other populist parties in Europe seem to be. National Socialists support them only because they are better choice than the main parties. Still, they are nowhere close to NS ideology.
They are not talking about closing the borders, they want to choose immigrants more carefully and they want to send them back where they came from when they start causing a ton of problems. Also, they want to cut the social welfare for the immigrants because the system is too easy to cheat (Finns do cheat the system also, but due to how being an immigrant works in here you can really make big bucks by lying and forging if you are immigrant). There was a somali woman who made 50,000 euros in a year, by cheating the welfare system. That's more than most of the Finns make yearly, and that sure fires up some opinions. Especially when in the end the welfare cheater got off the hook for nothing.
And oh boy, the Finns are really awakening to what is happening in the rest of the Europe. Immigrants are causing large scale problems everywhere, because we haven't dealt with them efficiently enough. Riots in France, Malmö, even areas where you can not walk safely if you are white. If we had taken harder stance since the beginning we probably wouldn't have any problems right now.
People want change, I can't blame them. Multiculturalism is failing, like some of the more prominent European politicians have said (Angela Merkel for example).
Anyways, people who are talking about Nazi, Fascist or Far-Right ideologies and TrueFinns in the same topic should get themselves educated. I can't help it, but laugh at anyone parroting that propaganda. Hell, only the most delusional communists in Finland think that TrueFinns have anything to do with Nazis. Most of the people who dislike them think they are just dumb rednecks.
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Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
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I wouldn't vote for the "True Finn" (a weird translation btw, in finnish it sounds more like "an average finn") party as a whole because i think they are a bit uneducated and simple, but i could vote for one of their guys who is Jussi Halla-aho because he is very educated and anti-charismatic/emotional and very calculative and logical (all though a bit more conservative than i am).
I don't think this election really changed anything... from the moment people started actively criticizing immigration-politics most politicians became a lot more sceptical towards immigration. Maby Finland will become more sceptical of the EU, but i think the true finn party will compromise when needed...
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This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, XIXth century has been so good...
+ Show Spoiler +
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"True Finns with 14,9% poll (4,0% last election, currently 5 seats) is only party that opposes EU. Currently their partly leader Timo Soini is in EU though. Gained a lot of new votes past year. Party had 6,4% poll year ago and now is closing gap to major parties. Slightly hates immigration and uses EU problems to boost their party voting share."
This party is my absolute nightmare, it reminds me of everything that's been bad in the history: Big promises, abuse of current situation to get votes from stupid people, racism, nationalism... ring a bell?
The other large parties don't really matter since they'll mostly be able to negotiate with each other and it won't make much of a difference, but I really hope people would stop voting for these.
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On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices. People are scared, and that's never a good sign. Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917. Yeah, XIXth century has been so good... + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.).
PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
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On April 18 2011 21:22 FreshVegetables wrote:
Swedens don't have problem with ghetos like rinkeby?
Well yeah but we are educated enough to know that its NOT the immigrants fault but the way our immigration system works. We need to integrate immigrants more to the Swedish culture rather then send them home or stop immigration. Most immigrants come from hostile zones or unfriendly/undemocratic countries and denying those people who seek out better opportunities a chance in our society is just stupid.
The problem with heavy immigrant populated areas in Sweden like Rinkeby and Rosengård is that they've become outsider to the rest of the community and build one for their own thats segregation and we need to put a stop to that. But that Swedish problems and as far as I know Finland is no where near our numbers in immigrants.
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Oh wow 19% that's so embarrassing. Though it kinda makes me feel a little better about the 5.7% we had over here.
The bad economic climate seems to amplify the fear and selfishness in people.
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On April 19 2011 00:53 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices. People are scared, and that's never a good sign. On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917. Yeah, XIXth century has been so good... + Show Spoiler + Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
none of these are bourgeois ideas. none.
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On April 19 2011 01:22 BlackFlag wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 00:53 Wegandi wrote:On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices. People are scared, and that's never a good sign. On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917. Yeah, XIXth century has been so good... + Show Spoiler + Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda. none of these are bourgeois ideas. none.
I didn't know that John of Paris, Thomas Aquinas, John Locke, David Hume, Voltaire, Turgot, Cobden, and the rest of the Classically Liberal tradition were proleteriat. Hegel, Marx, Lenin, Anabaptists, Puritans, etc. certainly weren't for liberty, freedom, and inalieable rights.
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On April 19 2011 01:08 OTIX wrote:Oh wow 19% that's so embarrassing. Though it kinda makes me feel a little better about the 5.7% we had over here. The bad economic climate seems to amplify the fear and selfishness in people.
What's embarrassing? People should be allowed to vote for whatever the fuck they want right? I know it's a sensitive subject but if someone has the same politcal opinion as a a party it shouldn't be "embarrassing" to vote for it, no matter what.
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It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up.
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On April 19 2011 00:53 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices. People are scared, and that's never a good sign. On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917. Yeah, XIXth century has been so good... + Show Spoiler + Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda. Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.). PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
You're an American who lives in the U.S.A? Please vote for your epic classical liberal 1832 pinoit Freedom Liberty Justice party over there, I'm sure it will work out really well.
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On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Social security stuff like pensions was introduced in Germany a long long long time ago (1891) and was done by conservative parties to take the wind out of the sails for unions, social democracy and communists. It is inconceivable to have no social security in Germany. However much the payouts will shrink in the future, the system will never be discontinued.
About the collapse: social security has "insurance" in its German name but does not work like an insurance and is basically some kind of Ponzi scheme (just like the social security in the US?). The problem is the prediction for Germany's population pyramid for 2050 looks like this:
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/7/7b/Bevpyr_2050.png)
Also, at the moment immigration and emigration numbers for Germany are about the same, so no population change from that angle. Statistics show that immigrants do not actually have more children than German families after the first generation.
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EPT
