As you guys might remember Swedish general elections this year, there is same kind of atmosphere going on. Traditionally there is only 3 major parties which each party usually gets around 20% of votes. Election winner party leader is nominated to start coalition talks to form government. Usually it consists 2 major parties and 1-3 smaller parties.
Here are the parties and polls:
Bigger parties:
Centre Party (last elections winner though lost seats) with 18,6% poll (down a lot from elections which was 23,1%), currently holds 51 seats. Has big influence on smaller municipalities. Expected to lose lots of seats because party has been in power for 8 years now and had some fund raising scandals. Current party leader Mari Kiviniemi.
National Coalition Party (last election gained 50+1 seats, defected MP) with 21,1% poll (last election 22,3%). Economic liberal freedom to sum it up. Managed to hold their voters pretty well. Current party leader Jyrki Katainen. Currently sits in government coalition.
Social Democrats (last election only got 45 seats, down 8 seats) with 18,4% poll ( last election 21.4%). Main voters comes from working class. Has close relationships on trade unions. Current party leader is Jutta Urpilainen. 2 out of 3 leaders from major parties are female.
Smaller parties:
Left Alliance with 7,9% poll (8,2% last election) is more leftist than Social democrats.
Green League with 9,1% poll (8,5% last election) is environmental party. Currently sits in government coalition.
Christian Democrats with 4,5% poll (4,8% last election) is what its name says.
Swedish People's Party with 4,0% poll (4,5% last election) represents Swedish speaking minority. Usually always in government coalition.
True Finns with 14,9% poll (4,0% last election, currently 5 seats) is only party that opposes EU. Currently their partly leader Timo Soini is in EU though. Gained a lot of new votes past year. Party had 6,4% poll year ago and now is closing gap to major parties. Slightly hates immigration and uses EU problems to boost their party voting share.
Election day:
Advance voting between 6th and 12th April.
Actual day (17th of April) from 9:00 to 20:00 (9 AM to 8 PM)
Voter backing for the populist True Finns party has surged to 16.9 percent in a fresh survey conducted for YLE by pollster Taloustutkimus. Conversely, support for the Social Democrats has dropped to hitherto unseen levels.
The True Finns’ heady rise in the polls is continuing, with the party’s voter backing up by 0.3 percentage points since January. Although other parties made predictions of a fall in the True Finns' backing, the party’s support did not peak with the record January figures.
The conservative National Coalition Party retains the top spot with 20.9 percent backing. Their support increased by half a percent since last month.
The Centre Party’s standing has also improved somewhat, with 18.9 percent of the poll’s respondents opting in its favour. This is an increase of 0.4 percentage points on January.
The main opposition party, the Social Democrats, has suffered further drops in popularity. Only 17.5 percent of respondents supported it in January, which makes it the lowest result since YLE started measuring party backing in 2006.
Support for the Green League has also fallen. February’s figure stands at 8.5 percent, down by 0.7 since last month. In fact, current backing for the Greens is at exactly the same level as their result in the 2007 parliamentary elections.
The Left Alliance attracted 7.3 percent of poll respondents in February, which is a 0.1 percentage point rise since January.
February also brought a slight rise in the polls for the Christian Democrats and a slight fall for the Swedish People’s Party, whose backing stands now at 4.2 percent and 3.9 percent respectively. Since January, the Christian Democrats rose in the poll by 0.4 percentage points and the Swedish People’s Party fell by 0.2 percent.
The category “other” has grown in popularity, with 1.9 percent of respondents supporting parties currently without a parliamentary presence.
Taloustutkimus conducted phone interviews with 2,901 people in Finland between February 1 and 23. Of them, 67.9 respondents stated their party preference. In earlier surveys, about 71 percent of respondents have done so. The margin of error is 1.7 percentage points.
So it seems like about 1½ months to election we have officially 4 partys close to each other competing for government spot. Its rare situation as its always been only 3 parties close each other. Will be updating when elections closes in...
True Finns gaining so much support, though I feel like it might start going down now aslong as the economy keeps recovering in the EU and bad shit doesn't happen.
From left to right: National Coalition Party Centre Party Social Democrats True Finns
From left to right Green League Left Alliance Christian Democrats Swedish People's Party other small parties
YLE
A new opinion poll commissioned by YLE shows the conservative National Coalition remains the largest single party in the run-up to next month’s parliamentary election. Support for the party in March stood at 20.1 percent.
Support for the populist True Finns Party continues to rise. The party gained 17.2 percent of support, just a hair's breadth behind the Centre and Social Democratic parties, each with 18.1 percent support.
In this latest poll, the Green league gained nine percent of support followed by the Left Alliance with seven percent, with both the Christian Democrats each with around four percent.
Pollster Taloustutkimus interviewed 2,428 people earlier this month. Just over two-thirds of respondents revealed their party support. The margin of error is 1.6 percentage points. Finns go to the polls in exactly one month’s time on April, 17.
Helsingin Sanomat (largest daily newspaper in Finland) Poll
20.7% National Coalition Party 18.4% True Finns 18.3% Centre Party 17.4% Social Democrats
8.8% Green League 7.8% Left Alliance 4.1% Swedish People's Party 3.5% Christian Democrats N/A other small parties
2500 people interviewed, the margin of error is 2.0%
It seems that more and more Europeans are voting for populist anti-immigration parties. Same thing's happened here in the Netherlands and from what I've heard this situation is also arising in France.
I find it hard to form an opinion on these events. If anyone knows any good articles on related subjects please share!
However, living outside of Finland, I'm not 100% familiar with every aspect of Finnish politics and the way votes are counted and distributed makes me a little confused. Moreover, my main motivation for voting is voting against True Finns rather than for someone specific. Although I've taken YLE's vaalikone and got my results there, I still want to know if there are any tactics that I could use to maximize the chances of my vote keeping True Finns out...
I've read up on wikipedia that the voting system in Finland, the d'Hondt method, favours the big parties and so I thought I should vote for one of the three other big parties, to maximize the effect of my vote. But then I read about how the parties can join together for the purpose of gathering votes and I guess that changes everything. I need to vote for someone who absolutely won't join with True Finns.
Moreover, there's a system in Norway that's meant to give small parties a fighting chance, as long as they're above the election threshhold. Thanks to this system, the Venstre party in Norway got 10 seats with 5,9% of the votes in 2005, but only 2 seats with 3,9% of the votes in 2009, with the election threshhold at 4%. Thus, if I wanted to maximize my vote against someone else than Venstre, if my vote could have tipped the scales so that Venstre got 4% of the votes, it might have meant 3-4 seats less for other parties, possibly being the party I voted against. Is there any analogy to this system in Finland? In addition, the election threshhold is at 3%, right? I may not agree to much with any of the parties under 3% enough to vote for them, but I like having all the facts when I make my decision. And again, they should absolutely not join with True Finns.
So, in short: Could someone explain, or give me a link to, which parties are likely to join up for the purpose of gathering votes, and which will most certainly not join up with True Finns? In addition, could anyone tell me what the effects of bringing a party above the election threshhold is? Finally, any insight into how to maximize the effect of one's vote, that I haven't thought of, is of course, also welcome. (Links in Finnish as well as English are also okay).
On April 04 2011 18:47 iMAniaC wrote: So, in short: Could someone explain, or give me a link to, which parties are likely to join up for the purpose of gathering votes, and which will most certainly not join up with True Finns? In addition, could anyone tell me what the effects of bringing a party above the election threshhold is? Finally, any insight into how to maximize the effect of one's vote, that I haven't thought of, is of course, also welcome. (Links in Finnish as well as English are also okay).
It depends on which district you have right to vote, but you can check them here:
Choose your district, and then choose not to answer the questions. You can then see the alliances at the top, but I'm pretty sure true finns are big enough to not be allied with anyone. Also, there is no treshold.
Elections will be held this weeks Sunday. Advance voting is possible till tomorrow. Most likely major updates going to happen Sunday. There will be live streaming (most likely finnish language) available. Don't know if major english news stations will cover it (they did it 4 years ago though).
Polling stations in Helsinki, Lapua and Tampere reported heightened voting activity, with queues developing at some locations. In Helsinki’s Kallio district, some voters had already formed queues ahead of the official opening of local polling stations.
Martti Pöyhönen told YLE that he was looking forward to the result of today’s election. "I’ve already bought buns and coffee to cheer when my candidate becomes a Member of Parliament,” he said of his choice.
For her part, voter Sanna Pykäläinen said the election debates had helped reinforce her election day choice. “I already knew in advance who I’d vote for and all of the pre-election debates have confirmed my decision,” she explained.
Voters have until eight o’clock Sunday evening to influence the look and tone of the new Parliamentary line-up. By then political pundits would have already compiled the results of advance voting.
Some 32 percent of voters chose to cast their ballots ahead of election day, compared to 29 percent during the 2007 parliamentary election.
Election day ballots will be counted by the Election Board. After 8.00 pm, YLE will broadcast its initial exit polls, which have closely reflected the final winners and losers for the past decade.
Election officials will have an initial count of ballots cast across the country by midnight Sunday.
On December 02 2010 09:39 Too_MuchZerg wrote: True Finns with 14,9% poll (4,0% last election, currently 5 seats) is only party that opposes EU. Currently their partly leader Timo Soini is in EU though. Gained a lot of new votes past year. Party had 6,4% poll year ago and now is closing gap to major parties. Slightly hates immigration and uses EU problems to boost their party voting share.
That's what I would have voted on if I was finnish.
Election officials in Oulu say they’re not certain to complete counting advance ballots cast in the 2011 Parliamentary election.
Early Sunday evening Mika Penttilä, Returning Officer for the Oulu Electoral Board signaled that the results of advance voting in the Oulu electoral district could take longer than usual. About 114,000 electors took advantage of the opportunity to cast early ballots.
Voting activity on the official poll day Sunday was also brisk in Oulu, with early projections of voter turnout forecast at over 70 percent.
20.2% National Coalition Party 17.3% Centre Party 19.5% Social Democrats 18.6% True Finns 6.4% Green League 8.3% Left Alliance 4.3% Christian Democrats 3.5% Swedish People's Party 0.4% Pirate Party 1.6% other small parties
Seems like there is gonna be Rainbow coalition. As there is 4 parties around 20% so government parties needs multiple parties to hold majority seats comfortably.
Quite simple: they hate us swede-finns because they think we have some sort of superiority complex and think we're better than everyone else in this country.
On April 18 2011 03:02 Raktavijan wrote: Quite simple: they hate us swede-finns because they think we have some sort of superiority complex and think we're better than everyone else in this country.
Ur the only reason ppl still need to study swedish no matter what. Which is kinda retarded cause ur such a minority.
On April 18 2011 01:31 KlaCkoN wrote: Um can anyone explain to me how Finland has an anti immigration party when they take like 100 refugees per year? =p
Because people are stupid* and it's easier to lay blame for "the others" (ie. immigrants, EU, etc.) rather than address problems as complex, multilayer issues. With a mindset like that, facts are secondary factors to emotions (anxiety, uncertainty, irritation...) which are the driving force behind the kind of thinking that has flared up as anti-immigration sentiment.
On April 18 2011 03:00 Jh wrote: swedish is like the easiest language to learn (i speak 6). whats with the hate?
The apparent uselessness of the subject (well, language) to a large number (if not majority) of Finns. I'm personally against Swedish as an obligatory language, and would rather see bigger, more useful languages (German, Russian, etc.) as options from which to choose. That said, for me, it's a neglible issue, both personally (I speak/study 4 languages, intending to pick up fifth later this year) and in general (there are far more important issues).
True Finns sound like the best choice for their country, kind of makes sense from the name itself, and whoever follows EU opens their arms to unwanted immigration policies and what not, just saying.
On April 18 2011 01:31 KlaCkoN wrote: Um can anyone explain to me how Finland has an anti immigration party when they take like 100 refugees per year? =p
Because people are stupid* and it's easier to lay blame for "the others" (ie. immigrants, EU, etc.) rather than address problems as complex, multilayer issues. With a mindset like that, facts are secondary factors to emotions (anxiety, uncertainty, irritation...) which are the driving force behind the kind of thinking that has flared up as anti-immigration sentiment.
On April 18 2011 03:00 Jh wrote: swedish is like the easiest language to learn (i speak 6). whats with the hate?
The apparent uselessness of the subject (well, language) to a large number (if not majority) of Finns. I'm personally against Swedish as an obligatory language, and would rather see bigger, more useful languages (German, Russian, etc.) as options from which to choose. That said, for me, it's a neglible issue, both personally (I speak/study 4 languages, intending to pick up fifth later this year) and in general (there are far more important issues).
* Not to be taken quite literally.
Hm thanks, the same as everywhere else then. I'm just confused how such sentiments can grow in a country which quite frankly doesn't have any immigrants to speak of. But it sounds like their hatered is more directed towards swede-finns (who must count as native finns by any standard right?) rather than actual immigrants. Is that true?
19.8% True Finns (seats 41) 19.8% National Coalition Party (seats 42) 18.5% Social Democrats (seats 41) 16.4% Centre Party (seats 36)
8.0% Left Alliance (seats 14) 7.3% Green League (seats 10) 4.2% Swedish People's Party (seats 9) 4.1% Christian Democrats (seats 6) 0.4% Pirate Party (seats 0) 1.4% other small parties (seats 1)
On April 18 2011 03:56 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Seems like Finland gets first black member to parliament. Another record is that we might get first immigrant member too.
Who is known from tv shows *sigh* not a real politician /facepalm
On April 18 2011 03:56 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Seems like Finland gets first black member to parliament. Another record is that we might get first immigrant member too.
Who is known from tv shows *sigh* not a real politician /facepalm
He has been pretty active in being the voice for minorities like gays and blacks, and in my opinion he has clearly has the passion for politics.
The populist True Finns saw their vote rise by 15 percentage points compared with the last election in 2007 to become the biggest party with 75 percent of the vote counted in Finland's parliamentary election. Turnout was high as Finns delivered what will be seen as a large protest vote against the established parties and the bailout of eurozone economies.
Results
Results with 95% of vote counted:
National Coalition Party: 19.8%
Social Democratic Party: 19.2%
True Finns: 19.1%
Centre Party: 16.2%
Left Alliance: 8.1%
Green League: 7.0%
Swedish People’s Party: 4.3%
Christian Democrats: 4.1%
Pirate Party: 0.4%
Others: 1.6%
The country basked in warm weather, further lifting participation in what has been a keenly-contested election campaign. Many Finns had cast their ballots before Sunday at 901 advance polling stations across the country, and 241 out-of-country polling stations at consulates and embassies.
The number of advance votes hit one and a quarter million, 31.2% of the electorate.
In the last parliamentary election in 2007, the Centre party won the most votes followed by the National Coalition Party and the Social Democrats. Recent polling has shown a surge in support for the True Finns, a populist Eurosceptic party that was the eighth largest in 2007. Total voter turnout in 2007 was 67.9%.
Most observers believe that indications are that there will be a higher voter turnout recorded in these elections.
YLE Pundit: Biggest Post-War Defeat for Centre
YLE election pundit Sami Borg said that based on early election returns, the loss suffered by the Centre Party may be the biggest post-war election slide. Votes in favour of the Centre have traditionally slumped by 2 -3 percentage points after the advance voting count.
Early returns of advance voting results showed that the Centre trailed the National Coalition, Social Democrat and True Finns with just 17.3 percent of the vote.
Borg estimated that the final results of the new “big three” would be difficult to predict. The National Coalition Party has generally improved on its vote count after the advance vote results, while the Social Democrats and Centre parties have traditionally lost ground.
"They believe that a low birth rate is not solved by immigration, as that results in problems and foreigners do not fit into Finnish culture. Instead, young women should study less and spend more time giving birth to pure Finnish children. That is like a faint echo of Nazi ideology."
Countrys switching to Extreme Left or Right Party is gonna be quite common imo When people feel in crisis they think that extreme situtations require extreme measures. Im portuguese , maybe if there was some more extreme measures and not a liar as PM we wouldnt need this bail out this early... Next is France with Marine Le Pen ?
The number of votes the "True Finns" got is just saddening. I fucking love finnish people, and to all of you finns with half a brain: stand tall and get those ignorant fuckers out of your parliament asap.
On April 18 2011 09:31 Mangemongen wrote: The number of votes the "True Finns" got is just saddening. I fucking love finnish people, and to all of you finns with half a brain: stand tall and get those ignorant fuckers out of your parliament asap.
Of course other countries can now see how True Finns do their job. If they fail then citizen of other countries can be reported how they did and is it wise to vote radical parties etc. If they succeed well then we will see what happens.
Could anyone of my finnish fellow TLers explain to me, why the "True Finns", oppose the things they oppose? Afaik they are even proposing, that women should not be equal to men or something in that fashion. I am utterly confused, always thought finnland was one of the dream countries with a shit ton of intelligent people, that are rather rational
On April 18 2011 18:12 zocktol wrote: Could anyone of my finnish fellow TLers explain to me, why the "True Finns", oppose the things they oppose? Afaik they are even proposing, that women should not be equal to men or something in that fashion. I am utterly confused, always thought finnland was one of the dream countries with a shit ton of intelligent people, that are rather rational
Well okay, I'll try. Finland has always had a strong economy, fair growth, and our deficit has never got out of control. That's why the general public of Finland has had it with countries like Greece (who lied to the EU about stuff) and Portugal now.
In essence the Finnish people do not want to pay up because other countries have acted like retards. Did you know, that in Greece, loggers received extra salary for working outdoors? Did you know, that in Greece, PM's daughters got a pension for life?
That's one half of the True Finns phenomenom. The other is "anti-immigration policy". They're not actually anti-immigration, but pro workbased-immigration. If people of any nationality want to come and work in Finland, that is okay.
We also have a very strong social security system, you basically get an assload of money even if you don't work. Some refugees seek to exploit this, and do not even look for work. There's some arab sites that specifically instruct people about to immigrate how to drain more money out of the system.
This is pretty much the gist of it.
Also, there's a whole lot of propaganda in foreign news outlets, or at least failed translations. The anti-abortion part is the party's leader's personal opinion because he is Roman Catholic. Most of the Finnish population (85% or so) are Lutheran.
And no, they're not proposing anything like women should not be equal to men.
On April 18 2011 18:12 zocktol wrote: Could anyone of my finnish fellow TLers explain to me, why the "True Finns", oppose the things they oppose? Afaik they are even proposing, that women should not be equal to men or something in that fashion. I am utterly confused, always thought finnland was one of the dream countries with a shit ton of intelligent people, that are rather rational
Well okay, I'll try. Finland has always had a strong economy, fair growth, and our deficit has never got out of control. That's why the general public of Finland has had it with countries like Greece (who lied to the EU about stuff) and Portugal now.
In essence the Finnish people do not want to pay up because other countries have acted like retards. Did you know, that in Greece, loggers received extra salary for working outdoors? Did you know, that in Greece, PM's daughters got a pension for life?
That's one half of the True Finns phenomenom. The other is "anti-immigration policy". They're not actually anti-immigration, but pro workbased-immigration. If people of any nationality want to come and work in Finland, that is okay.
We also have a very strong social security system, you basically get an assload of money even if you don't work. Some refugees seek to exploit this, and do not even look for work. There's some arab sites that specifically instruct people about to immigrate how to drain more money out of the system.
This is pretty much the gist of it.
Also, there's a whole lot of propaganda in foreign news outlets, or at least failed translations. The anti-abortion part is the party's leader's personal opinion because he is Roman Catholic. Most of the Finnish population (85% or so) are Lutheran.
And no, they're not proposing anything like women should not be equal to men.
OK so i get that everybody thinks its annoying, that countries like Greece are not able to handle their finances, but afaik they have an "Anti-Europen" attitude. And is ther a big amount of immigration to finnland from people that are not willing to work?
Yeah it's true they're anti-European to an extent. I guess their support is mostly due to these few countries not being able to keep up, and the fact the union is now letting Turkey in too which is considered to be bad in Finland.
And there's a fair amount of those people, yes. And it doesn't help immigrants lead proportional crime rates in a bunch of cities, especially the more brutal crimes like rape.
I didn't vote them myself -- actually I didn't vote at all. But if I had it would have been a tough choice between National Coalition Party and True Finns.
I might actually have to move away from the best country in the world because apparently 20% of our population are idiots. Seriously.... who votes on a party that is racist, wants Finland to close up and be in out own little bubble and wants us to move back in time to the 80's. Awesome job my fellow Finns! I'm actually almost ashamed of being a Finn right now.
Immigrants make up 2% of Finland's population. Most Fins probably haven't even seen an Immigrant. But people always hate what they don't know. And I bet not as many people abuse the social security as you'd think.
On April 18 2011 19:40 BlackFlag wrote: Immigrants make up 2% of Finland's population. Most Fins probably haven't even seen an Immigrant. But people always hate what they don't know. And I bet not as many people abuse the social security as you'd think.
All of what you said is false. And how is your `bet´ of any value without anything to back it up with?
Bets and mis-informed "probabilities" aren't too hot arguments.
I don't argue with ignorant people who vote for hateparties anyways. I've got better things to do with my time. People believe what they want to believe.
I don't know how much of this election result is due to racism, nationalism or anti-europeanism, but I think it's good to have gained a strong voice against further EU bailouts.
Greece and Portugal screwed up, many other countries are doing the same, and the rest has had their eyes shut tight while it was and is happening. Our sweet little country shelled out nearly €5 000 000 000 for the Greek, EU and now our abortion of a financial practice. And by shelled out I mean borrowed. If we'd stuck half of that money in education we might actually get some of it back, but if anyone seriously believes Greece is going to pay it back while the euro is still worth something, he'd better go and see a neurosurgeon who operates with a sledgehammer.
On April 18 2011 19:40 BlackFlag wrote: Immigrants make up 2% of Finland's population. Most Fins probably haven't even seen an Immigrant. But people always hate what they don't know. And I bet not as many people abuse the social security as you'd think.
All of what you said is false. And how is your `bet´ of any value without anything to back it up with?
Bets and mis-informed "probabilities" aren't too hot arguments.
actually... the number of immigrants in Finland right now is about 2,7% of the country's population so saying 2 or 3% is accurate enough. Also most immigrants live in big cities like Helsinki or Tampere so I won't agree with "Most Fins probably haven't even seen an Immigrant", but I do believe there are parts of this country that are a lot more ignorant about them then the people in e.g. Helsinki.
On April 18 2011 19:40 BlackFlag wrote:Most Fins probably haven't even seen an Immigrant.
And it's stereotyping statements like this along with "TRUE FINNS HATE IMMIGRANTS" -rhetoric and similiar stuff that makes me want to vote "True Finns". I don't vote for them because I hate immigrants, I don't. What I hate is giving away Finnish money for free. You know, billions and billions of euros in charity money to countries who are not able to handle their own debts, while having to cut similar sums from our own budget.
To me it seems, the money government gains from raising taxes and cutting spending is given away straight away in name of "greater good". For countries who are unable to handle their own finances. Don't argue with that, they are unable do handle their own finances.
If they are able to handle their finances, why are "rescue packages" necessary?
Well, to be honest. Nearly all imigrants are placed in Helsinki city suburbans, there are parts of Helsinki that are filled with crime and young somali gangs. Just take a look at swedens rinkeby for example? 90% of the people living there are immigrants.
I don't hate immigrants at all. It just pisses me off when they exploit our country and fail to intergrate to the society. They rarely go to school, they hang out with somalis (Almost all imigrants here are somali). Worst of all is that their crime rate is really high too. I would suggest a similar system to the US to the imigrants. 3-strikes-and-out, meaning that after they would have broken the law 3 times, theyd be banned from the country. This would obviously exclude usual stuff like speeding tickets etc.
On April 18 2011 19:40 BlackFlag wrote:Most Fins probably haven't even seen an Immigrant.
given away straight away in name of "greater good".
That's just on the spot. "Greater good" with an assload of quotation marks and italic.
The money's not for greater good, like the development aid given to REALLY poor countries in Africa etc. That's where charity should go for. Not to Greece or Portugal. They're not poor countries!
They've just been living beyond their wealth, and as a result need to cut their standard of living. And not expect tiny northern countries to loan out billions.
On April 18 2011 20:40 FreshVegetables wrote: Well, to be honest. Nearly all imigrants are placed in Helsinki city suburbans, there are parts of Helsinki that are filled with crime and young somali gangs. Just take a look at swedens rinkeby for example? 90% of the people living there are immigrants.
I don't hate immigrants at all. It just pisses me off when they exploit our country and fail to intergrate to the society. They rarely go to school, they hang out with somalis (Almost all imigrants here are somali). Worst of all is that their crime rate is really high too. I would suggest a similar system to the US to the imigrants. 3-strikes-and-out, meaning that after they would have broken the law 3 times, theyd be banned from the country. This would obviously exclude usual stuff like speeding tickets etc.
Voting "True Finns" (word to word translation would be "Basic Finns" why wont they use that ?) wont solve that. Timo Soini wont get Finland out of EU. Humatarian help is in a EU law so we have to take refugees.
Problem u said is more of a city structure problem. We need build citys they way that theres no ghetos/rich places.
Voting "True Finns" (word to word translation would be "Basic Finns" why wont they use that ?)
Their party's Swedish name is sannfinländarnas, from which it's translated. Actually, the party's name was supposed to be Tosi Suomalaiset at first; it wasn't liked. Then it was Varsinais-Suomalaiset, which was already in use. The current form is the third option
City structure problems can't be solved short or even mid term. Most large cities were built over centuries, which means they don't really have an overall plan in the central parts. Changes would have to happen as buildings get too old and need to be replaced.
19%?! REALLY?! Finland accept a low amount of immigrants each year when compared to Sweden and our "anti-immigration party" only got 5-6% and even then the whole country went out on the streets to rally against racism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see this kind of politic disease spreading across the EU. But hey, thats democracy I guess.
On April 18 2011 20:59 venage wrote: 19%?! REALLY?! Finland accept a low amount of immigrants each year when compared to Sweden and our "anti-immigration party" only got 5-6% and even then the whole country went out on the streets to rally against racism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see this kind of politic disease spreading across the EU. But hey, thats democracy I guess.
There is a bit of a difference tho. Sverige Demokraterna seem to be much more anti-immigrant while Perussuomalaiset are more anti-EU with a bit of anti-immigration on the side.
On April 18 2011 20:59 venage wrote: 19%?! REALLY?! Finland accept a low amount of immigrants each year when compared to Sweden and our "anti-immigration party" only got 5-6% and even then the whole country went out on the streets to rally against racism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see this kind of politic disease spreading across the EU. But hey, thats democracy I guess.
Swedens don't have problem with ghetos like rinkeby?
On April 18 2011 20:59 venage wrote: 19%?! REALLY?! Finland accept a low amount of immigrants each year when compared to Sweden and our "anti-immigration party" only got 5-6% and even then the whole country went out on the streets to rally against racism. It makes me sick to my stomach to see this kind of politic disease spreading across the EU. But hey, thats democracy I guess.
There is a bit of a difference tho. Sverige Demokraterna seem to be much more anti-immigrant while Perussuomalaiset are more anti-EU with a bit of anti-immigration on the side.
Judging by spedes explanatation at the top of page 4, I'd say the 2 are nearly identical.
On April 18 2011 20:59 venage wrote: 19%?! REALLY?!
The thing is, True Finns aren't just an anti-immigration party. They're a populistic party, against giving out hundreds of millions in bailouts for fraudulent countries, against taking in more refugees, against raising the minimum age of receiving pension. You get the deal.
Politics are about compromise. You're lucky if you've found a party that fits your ideology 100%. For the rest of us, we need to find a party that match our thoughts and/or beliefs the most.
That's most likely a reason why the percentage is so high, people may look at it like this: "Well, I agree we shouldn't give our money away. If they don't pay back our pension money is in danger. Oh, and I agree the minimum age of pension shouldn't be raised. I'm not so sure about this whole immigration deal, though."
That would be 2/3 of things they agree with, that you might not find from other parties.
--
But anyway, think I'm done here. I don't even really care about politics, just thought to write my own opinions and thoughts as to what has happened. Time to play some starcraft.
Instead of tackling the root of the problems, they attack the consequences. This is what all those populist right wing parties in every European country do. Easy solutions for complex problems, swallow the propaganda, as if it works.
Rightwing nationalist parties have been gaining ground in scandinavia these last elections. In DK they are called the Danish Folkparty and in sweden Sverigedemokraterne, they are all anti EU and anti immigration. Its pretty embarrasing imo. especially when they like in DK actualy get some power in parlament and begin making stupid protectionist laws.
On April 18 2011 21:35 BlackFlag wrote: Instead of tackling the root of the problems, they attack the consequences. This is what all those populist right wing parties in every European country do. Easy solutions for complex problems, swallow the propaganda, as if it works.
yes! exactly! couldn't have put it better myself. I personally don't get how 20% of the people can just jump on the bandwagon and don't realize how the long term consequences will affect us.
Nazi party, political disease, hate party, if it were so I would have voted for them, however, it is not. Nice rhetorics people, TrueFinns are not anti-immigration, they just oppose the harmful types of immigration. They are definately not a hate party, even some of the party members are black or other kinds of immigrants.
There's a lot of discussion about immigration at the moment and in the near past. Basically we are paying some of the best money in Europe for the immigrants who are never even tempted to work due to the system. Also, a lot of the less informed immigrant youths are criminals or harbor a violent attitude towards white skinned people (Yes, it's called racisms no matter whom does it).
And the reason for these views? I've never seen a black man in my life? I fear the unknown. Wrong, I lived next to the one of the worst immigration zones in Finland for years. Everytime I'd come from drinking in Helsinki, I'd have to walk through the immigrant infested area. Even without any visible signs of my political views, I'd bump in troubles due to my white skin (Yeah, this is the reason why I support far-right). Whilst I've never been hateful towards individual persons, I detest immigration as a whole, because I see the lack of respect in every day life. I work as a shop clerk in eastern Helsinki at the moment, and about 50% of the customer base are immigrants. Refugees are the worst group of immigrants, they stick to their own ways, and expect everyone else to follow. I've been called racist because someone's credit card did not work (no money, is that my fault?) and whilst I voice heavy dislike for the immigrants I NEVER allow it to show in my work.
Then again, the people whom have been raised into western culture, and have the money to travel (middle class american blacks for example) are pretty nice to deal with.
Anyways, enough about me. I'm just saying, that TrueFinns ain't exactly the nazis who want to gas six million jews. They mean well, whilst a bit uneducated, they are not exactly hateful towards the people who behave well. Just the rotten eggs who ruin it for everyone. Most of the Finns who voted for TrueFinns due to immigration policies either live near to the ghettoes or were just concerned for the absurd amounts of money we give to them. Neither of which we should have to bear, when you check places like malmö, you see why we don't want same future.
On April 18 2011 21:35 BlackFlag wrote: Instead of tackling the root of the problems, they attack the consequences. This is what all those populist right wing parties in every European country do. Easy solutions for complex problems, swallow the propaganda, as if it works.
Sums it up pretty nice. As for the finns who are worried about their reputation: Other european countries are definitely worried. The fact that a democratic country with a high standard of education jumps off the wagon (or at least one fifth of the population would support such move) as soon as there are bad times is worrisome. Especially if the population of finnland doesn't seem to care about europe. I don't like the deficit criesis either, but right now it hits the greece population the hardest (check out the cuts they make, after that everybody can just lulz at your 30k immigrants a year). Is the average citizen of greece responsible? Everybody should know that ain't the case. European union is about cooperation, we share the good times as well as the bad times. This is the only way to ensure that the future in europe is peaceful. Imagine if Germany, France or the United Kingdom would suddenly give a shit about Finnland and start protecting the market/block educated people from moving to finnland etc. Not to mention that Finnland is insignificant and can only protect itselft against superpowers with the help of the European Union.
So yeah, if you oppose true finns that is good, but people need to know and you need to fight far right/racism/isolation policies. Right now we definitely hear too little about it.
Geez, people who know nothing about Finnish politics or Finnish way of life are whining about the way our nation votes.
TrueFinns are not even half what the other populist parties in Europe seem to be. National Socialists support them only because they are better choice than the main parties. Still, they are nowhere close to NS ideology.
They are not talking about closing the borders, they want to choose immigrants more carefully and they want to send them back where they came from when they start causing a ton of problems. Also, they want to cut the social welfare for the immigrants because the system is too easy to cheat (Finns do cheat the system also, but due to how being an immigrant works in here you can really make big bucks by lying and forging if you are immigrant). There was a somali woman who made 50,000 euros in a year, by cheating the welfare system. That's more than most of the Finns make yearly, and that sure fires up some opinions. Especially when in the end the welfare cheater got off the hook for nothing.
And oh boy, the Finns are really awakening to what is happening in the rest of the Europe. Immigrants are causing large scale problems everywhere, because we haven't dealt with them efficiently enough. Riots in France, Malmö, even areas where you can not walk safely if you are white. If we had taken harder stance since the beginning we probably wouldn't have any problems right now.
People want change, I can't blame them. Multiculturalism is failing, like some of the more prominent European politicians have said (Angela Merkel for example).
Anyways, people who are talking about Nazi, Fascist or Far-Right ideologies and TrueFinns in the same topic should get themselves educated. I can't help it, but laugh at anyone parroting that propaganda. Hell, only the most delusional communists in Finland think that TrueFinns have anything to do with Nazis. Most of the people who dislike them think they are just dumb rednecks.
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
I wouldn't vote for the "True Finn" (a weird translation btw, in finnish it sounds more like "an average finn") party as a whole because i think they are a bit uneducated and simple, but i could vote for one of their guys who is Jussi Halla-aho because he is very educated and anti-charismatic/emotional and very calculative and logical (all though a bit more conservative than i am).
I don't think this election really changed anything... from the moment people started actively criticizing immigration-politics most politicians became a lot more sceptical towards immigration. Maby Finland will become more sceptical of the EU, but i think the true finn party will compromise when needed...
This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
"True Finns with 14,9% poll (4,0% last election, currently 5 seats) is only party that opposes EU. Currently their partly leader Timo Soini is in EU though. Gained a lot of new votes past year. Party had 6,4% poll year ago and now is closing gap to major parties. Slightly hates immigration and uses EU problems to boost their party voting share."
This party is my absolute nightmare, it reminds me of everything that's been bad in the history: Big promises, abuse of current situation to get votes from stupid people, racism, nationalism... ring a bell?
The other large parties don't really matter since they'll mostly be able to negotiate with each other and it won't make much of a difference, but I really hope people would stop voting for these.
On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote: This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.).
PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
On April 18 2011 21:22 FreshVegetables wrote: Swedens don't have problem with ghetos like rinkeby?
Well yeah but we are educated enough to know that its NOT the immigrants fault but the way our immigration system works. We need to integrate immigrants more to the Swedish culture rather then send them home or stop immigration. Most immigrants come from hostile zones or unfriendly/undemocratic countries and denying those people who seek out better opportunities a chance in our society is just stupid.
The problem with heavy immigrant populated areas in Sweden like Rinkeby and Rosengård is that they've become outsider to the rest of the community and build one for their own thats segregation and we need to put a stop to that. But that Swedish problems and as far as I know Finland is no where near our numbers in immigrants.
On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote: This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote: This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
none of these are bourgeois ideas. none.
I didn't know that John of Paris, Thomas Aquinas, John Locke, David Hume, Voltaire, Turgot, Cobden, and the rest of the Classically Liberal tradition were proleteriat. Hegel, Marx, Lenin, Anabaptists, Puritans, etc. certainly weren't for liberty, freedom, and inalieable rights.
On April 19 2011 01:08 OTIX wrote: Oh wow 19% that's so embarrassing. Though it kinda makes me feel a little better about the 5.7% we had over here.
The bad economic climate seems to amplify the fear and selfishness in people.
What's embarrassing? People should be allowed to vote for whatever the fuck they want right? I know it's a sensitive subject but if someone has the same politcal opinion as a a party it shouldn't be "embarrassing" to vote for it, no matter what.
On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote: This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.).
PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
You're an American who lives in the U.S.A? Please vote for your epic classical liberal 1832 pinoit Freedom Liberty Justice party over there, I'm sure it will work out really well.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Social security stuff like pensions was introduced in Germany a long long long time ago (1891) and was done by conservative parties to take the wind out of the sails for unions, social democracy and communists. It is inconceivable to have no social security in Germany. However much the payouts will shrink in the future, the system will never be discontinued.
About the collapse: social security has "insurance" in its German name but does not work like an insurance and is basically some kind of Ponzi scheme (just like the social security in the US?). The problem is the prediction for Germany's population pyramid for 2050 looks like this:
Also, at the moment immigration and emigration numbers for Germany are about the same, so no population change from that angle. Statistics show that immigrants do not actually have more children than German families after the first generation.
On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote: This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.).
PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
You're an American who lives in the U.S.A? Please vote for your epic classical liberal 1832 pinoit Freedom Liberty Justice party over there, I'm sure it will work out really well.
I rarely vote, but was just wondering if Finland had a CL Party. I am not telling people who to vote for, or calling them names. I find it purposefully distracts from any meaningful conversation -- essentially it becomes an argument of personality than substance. I like to follow the spread of the ideas I covet. Inquiry should not be miscontrued as anything other than curiosity.
On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote: This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.).
PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
You're an American who lives in the U.S.A? Please vote for your epic classical liberal 1832 pinoit Freedom Liberty Justice party over there, I'm sure it will work out really well.
I rarely vote, but was just wondering if Finland had a CL Party. I am not telling people who to vote for, or calling them names. I find it purposefully distracts from any meaningful conversation -- essentially it becomes an argument of personality than substance. I like to follow the spread of the ideas I covet. Inquiry should not be miscontrued as anything other than curiosity.
Your words are weightless in this (and probably a lot more) context. You barged into a Finnish election thread and starting rambling about 'classical liberal 1832 politics' against the 'socialists'. True Finns are dumb as shit but they're not as dumb as an American Libertarian, aka petit-bourgeois
Quite a funny and sad thread. But in the end just a typical internet politic discussion. Just some random numbers an opinions and nothing with any depth. True Finns are just nationalism/racism and provide simple answers for difficult questions. Economy refugees are just the main "problem" for the west world to come. I mean, what would you do if you see the richness in the western countries and life somewhere in africa or eastern europe or latin america? You would try it. The main problem that needs to be solved is that noone has the urge to immigrant in another country because everywhere are equal chances for a good life. And because this can't be solved by 1 or 2 countries "democracy" and states are failing in the conditions of a globalized world. just my 2 cents^^
On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote: It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up.
And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you?
On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote: It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up.
And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you?
They make a million billion promises that they can't fulfill, yes it's stupid to believe in obvious exeggration and lies.
I'd say it's more of a learned opinion than a personal preference. Even the one guy who supports True Finns in this thread (Mayhemia) called them stupid. He also said "Nazi party, political disease, hate party, if it were so I would have voted for them," just as a headsup for what type of person defends the PS.
On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote: It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up.
And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you?
They make a million billion promises that they can't fulfill, yes it's stupid to believe in obvious exeggration and lies.
b-b-b-but it's their opinion OMG!!!! every opnion is special, plz give us 1832 classical liberals under the true finns
All those "it's their opinion, let them be" people don't grasp the concept of opinions, because an opinion is worth nothing, if you can't back it up with intelligent arguments. The only argument for those right wing extremists, is "duh immigrants take my money", which is just a shortened sight of a chain of events. (It's the same with the bailouts for EU-countries like Greece. To give them money is stupid, but in a complete different way than "they're taking our money!!!!". But it's impossible to argue with those people anyway, because who votes for those kind of parties, is shortsighted or uninterested in real problem-solving.
On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote: It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up.
And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you?
They make a million billion promises that they can't fulfill, yes it's stupid to believe in obvious exeggration and lies.
I'm not trying to defend them or anything but what I'm trying to say is that if you want to vote for something stupid then go ahead, you have the right to do that without being questioned.
Didn't actually vote even though I was working at one of the location where the election took place.
Before the elections I was mostly amused by the "True Finns" phenomenon, never really expected them to break into top 3. I mostly consider this as people protesting, similar to voting Aku Ankka (Donald Duck) and Tony Halme but in much bigger scale.
I would imagine that Kokoomus (Coalition?) will keep "True Finns" in a fairly tight leash and "True Finns" won't be able to come through with most of the promises they made, and it's probably better that way.
On December 02 2010 09:39 Too_MuchZerg wrote: True Finns with 14,9% poll (4,0% last election, currently 5 seats) is only party that opposes EU. Currently their partly leader Timo Soini is in EU though. Gained a lot of new votes past year. Party had 6,4% poll year ago and now is closing gap to major parties. Slightly hates immigration and uses EU problems to boost their party voting share.
That's what I would have voted on if I was finnish.
Yeah Nazism has worked out great so far in history!.. oh wait..
It's quite sad to see that almost every country in Europe has a pretty large party based on racism and conservatism. Lucklily the inbred Swedish equivilant is kept faily small in comparison, but still. The future looks quite dark indeed. By the way, how can you slightly hate something?
On April 19 2011 02:13 Vaelone wrote: I mostly consider this as people protesting, similar to voting Aku Ankka (Donald Duck) and Tony Halme but in much bigger scale.
I agree, it's a protest from the anxious, angry, and less 'informed' parts of society about not having their populist and throwaway personal ~special opinions~ about nasty immigrants. the scary EU, being Tough On Crime etc being discussed by politicians
Eh just stop throwing racism around because that's not what they are. How is it racist to not want people to just come feed off the system? They have nothing against normal immigration where people come to work etc, they support it. Still didn't vote for them cos of some other stuff.
On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote: This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices.
People are scared, and that's never a good sign.
On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote: Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917.
Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda.
Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.).
PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
Are you really seriously opposing "classical liberal" à-la Malthus and other conservative reading of Smith and the Red Khmer as the only alternative?
Is it incredibly bad faith or complete ignorance?
The reason capitalism has worked quite well and insured freedom and some equality for a century is precisely because there have been movements to oppose "classical liberals": socialists, social democrats etc...
Society ion 1830 was more or less disguised slavery for 70% people.
A lot of people are reading too much into the results of the election.
Unless the True Finns find common ground with at least the National Coalition Party or the Social Democrats, they will not be included in forming the government. In the event that they do, serious concessions have to be made to reach a consensus on important decisions. Considering how different the three parties that are currently likely to form government are, any propositions or laws that are passed will not heavily favor the policies of any single one of the three biggest parties.
Finnish foreign and immigration policies are unlikely to see radical change. At most, I expect limits to well-fare and other social services for immigrants based on how long they've been unemployed in relation to how long they've been under well-fare. A change that wouldn't be completely uncalled for from a financial perspective, even if it included Finns and not just immigrants as well.
Most non-Nordics have a lack of perspective when it comes to Finnish politics. All of our parties are very similar when compared to French (whom we modeled our form of Parliament after) or even American political parties, which seem like they are worlds apart and harbor great animosity toward each other. All major Finnish parties agree on gradual taxation, the idea of a national Army with compulsory military or civil service for all Finnish males, free public education up to university-level, free healthcare and the likes. Negotiations frequently yield results, even between government parties and the opposition. Finland has a longstanding reputation of being a neutral/pseudo-neutral party or the mediator in conflicts, and that image is represented among all Finnish political parties. Politically, Finland is very unified.
I don't mean to imply that there are no differing views or policies, far from it. I'm simply stating that the parties generally compromise with each other, especially in matters of foreign affairs. Even though the True Finns are against the EU, Finland will remain in the union and will contribute to the situation in Portugal. The thing in question is by how much, and that is what the True Finns will attempt to influence.
I personally voted for an individual whose views I liked with no regard to which party was in question. I realize that this is a naive way to vote and that individualism has no place in politics, but it was either that or not vote at all (voting for the sleeper-party, as it's called) since I didn't really identify with any party. Regardless, my candidate didn't make it into parliament but there's always next election.
ignorance from his part i imagine, bad faith from the american media for emotionally charging words like 'socialist' 'capitalist' etc in their news
I guess so.
Saying we should go back yo 1830's doctrines is more or less like saying we should go back to XVIth century and restablish serfdom.
Technically, it is really 13th Century, since the Magna Carta was a giant leap forward for human liberty. I suppose that is too old, and the Magna Carta is like serfdom, so we should just do away with that too. I think it is foolish to write off everything that once was as inferior, or worse.
There was no income tax. No sales tax. Most of the states had outlawed socialist endeavors like internal improvements (State-roads, canals, etc.). There was no welfare so you were not getting stolen from. Perhaps you should read a bit of De Tocqueville. To call having an absence of taxation (for the most part) as serfdom is beyond Orwellian. Most of the world had outlawed slavery by 1830.
Yes, I miss the lack of Republicanism. I guess I am a backward neanderthal to pine for a time when Government was nearly non-existent & you were free to pursue your dreams without interference. When society for the most part believed in voluntary relationships. When there was no Central Bank stealing your wealth and property and giving it to an aristocratic privileged class.
I guess you guys do not know that my views in the MSM are nearly non-existent. The media hates those who hold my political views.
Ironically, RussiaToday is probably the most libertarian channel (I guess they are trying to foment revolution like the CIA /shrug).
ignorance from his part i imagine, bad faith from the american media for emotionally charging words like 'socialist' 'capitalist' etc in their news
I guess so.
Saying we should go back yo 1830's doctrines is more or less like saying we should go back to XVIth century and restablish serfdom.
Technically, it is really 13th Century, since the Magna Carta was a giant leap forward for human liberty. I suppose that is too old, and the Magna Carta is like serfdom, so we should just do away with that too. I think it is foolish to write off everything that once was as inferior, or worse.
There was no income tax. No sales tax. Most of the states had outlawed socialist endeavors like internal improvements (State-roads, canals, etc.). There was no welfare so you were not getting stolen from. Perhaps you should read a bit of De Tocqueville. To call having an absence of taxation (for the most part) as serfdom is beyond Orwellian. Most of the world had outlawed slavery by 1830.
Yes, I miss the lack of Republicanism. I guess I am a backward neanderthal to pine for a time when Government was nearly non-existent & you were free to pursue your dreams without interference. When society for the most part believed in voluntary relationships. When there was no Central Bank stealing your wealth and property and giving it to an aristocratic privileged class.
I guess you guys do not know that my views in the MSM are nearly non-existent. The media hates those who hold my political views.
Ironically, RussiaToday is probably the most libertarian channel (I guess they are trying to foment revolution like the CIA /shrug).
It's a bit like looking at Fox News. I don't even know where to start because everything is wrong.
First of all, your Magna Carta stuff applies only to England, and serfdom has existed in Russia until the 1917 revolution.
Orwell was a hardcore socialist, just that you know. I say that because I am annoyed to see uber-capitalist people think that Orwell would have been on their side with their crusade about "statism".
Now, you try to apply to the whole history what applies only to modern times, since you seem to think that modern State has always existed. That leads you to really gross misinterpretations, like when you say we lack Republicanism. Republicanism = less state = lol?
Ok, since you seem to ignore completely what Republicanism is: Republicanism is a movement which comes from what has been called civic humanism, during the XVIth century in Italy. The idea behind civic humanism, or neo-athenian humanism is that man is free only when he is protected from the arbitrary of the Fortune by the City. The main figure of Republicanism in XVIIIth century is typically Rousseau.
The alternative which was born at the same time was the neo-Roman humanism, or merchant humanism, which has more or less led to liberalism, and for which someone is free when nobody steps in his way to do what he wants.
I don't know what to say, because I really don't want to be agressive or rude, but I would just try to get a little bit better informed, because when you post stuff which look like bad propaganda such as:
When there was no Central Bank stealing your wealth and property and giving it to an aristocratic privileged class.
you can be sure that most readers die a little bit inside.
Oh, and I have read Tocqueville. I didn't realize it was the Bible though. And I haven't realized he had anything to do with the mad anti-tax paranoia of conservative americans today.
EDIT: maybe I got the stuff about republicanism backward, i don't get your sentence. Oh well.
On April 19 2011 03:27 FrozenSolid wrote: A lot of people are reading too much into the results of the election.
Unless the True Finns find common ground with at least the National Coalition Party or the Social Democrats, they will not be included in forming the government. In the event that they do, serious concessions have to be made to reach a consensus on important decisions. Considering how different the three parties that are currently likely to form government are, any propositions or laws that are passed will not heavily favor the policies of any single one of the three biggest parties.
Finnish foreign and immigration policies are unlikely to see radical change. At most, I expect limits to well-fare and other social services for immigrants based on how long they've been unemployed in relation to how long they've been under well-fare. A change that wouldn't be completely uncalled for from a financial perspective, even if it included Finns and not just immigrants as well.
Most non-Nordics have a lack of perspective when it comes to Finnish politics. All of our parties are very similar when compared to French (whom we modeled our form of Parliament after) or even American political parties, which seem like they are worlds apart and harbor great animosity toward each other. All major Finnish parties agree on gradual taxation, the idea of a national Army with compulsory military or civil service for all Finnish males, free public education up to university-level, free healthcare and the likes. Negotiations frequently yield results, even between government parties and the opposition. Finland has a longstanding reputation of being a neutral/pseudo-neutral party or the mediator in conflicts, and that image is represented among all Finnish political parties. Politically, Finland is very unified.
I don't mean to imply that there are no differing views or policies, far from it. I'm simply stating that the parties generally compromise with each other, especially in matters of foreign affairs. Even though the True Finns are against the EU, Finland will remain in the union and will contribute to the situation in Portugal. The thing in question is by how much, and that is what the True Finns will attempt to influence.
I personally voted for an individual whose views I liked with no regard to which party was in question. I realize that this is a naive way to vote and that individualism has no place in politics, but it was either that or not vote at all (voting for the sleeper-party, as it's called) since I didn't really identify with any party. Regardless, my candidate didn't make it into parliament but there's always next election.
In the end, it will all be business as usual.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
When 1 French people out of 4 or 5 think that Marine Le Pen is the best person to represent them and their country, you can be sure that something is fucking damn wrong with French democracy and France as a country, although he doesn't even have a single member to the parliament.
Also, the problem with far right is that they are very good to impose their themes to political life. Means even if Marine Le Pen doesn't have a deputy, the only thing which is being discussed in French papers and french parliament is her agenda: foreigners, immigration, security, and all the same repressive / xenophobic / populistic (cross the ones you don't like) bullcrap.
Most people who claim some kind of intellectual kinship with Tocqueville have not read him carefully enough. I understand that in the United States, Vol. 1 of Democracy is commonly read, and the far more important Vol. 2 is practically ignored.
While the Tea party may bemoan the awful prophetic truth of his chapter: "What Sort Of Despotism Democratic Nations Have To Fear," they often ignore "Why The Americans Display More Readiness And More Taste For General Ideas Than Their Forefathers, The English," which they play out to a T.
Although I suppose I should point out that his following chapter was titled: "Why The Americans Have Never Been So Eager As The French For General Ideas In Political Matters." Kind of makes Tocqueville St. John the divine of the Democratic age, as far as I'm concerned reading through tl.net.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Just want to point out how sweet the butthurt coming from swedes is. Their citys are burning and 20% of budget goes to immigration, and they have the nerve preache us how to ruin our country too.
On April 19 2011 04:43 MoltkeWarding wrote: P.S. Yes, I am making fun of the fact that an American and a Frenchman have hijacked a thread about Finnish politics, in case you were wondering.
Both True Finns' leader Timo Soini and National Coalition party (NCP) chair Jyrki Katainen believe that a government composed of the three largest parties following Sunday's parliamentary vote is likely.
"It is a very probable option," said Katainen. "It would accord with the results of the election. Now we have to solve the content issues."
Soini agreed, saying that he was ready to begin negotiations on that basis.
"It's a starting point," Soini told YLE. "We can get things going from there and begin discussions. It's fine by me if that's the starting point. Then we have to solve the content issues."
Earlier, party secretaries gave a similar verdict on YLE's Aamu-TV breakfast show. The NCP secretary Taru Tujunen says that a government composed of the three largest parties – her own plus the Social Democrats (SDP) and the True Finns – would be a ”strong option”.
Different Negotiations
According to the Social Democrat party secretary, the True Finns’ place is in the government. According to Tujunen the coalition negotiations will be different to earlier discussions on government formation. She says that earlier governments have been formed by the two largest parties, which have then taken smaller parties in to make up the numbers.
This time round, the NCP, SDP and True Finns would be a strong option. According to True Finns’ leader Timo Soini, the goal is to have a majority government.
SDP party secretary Mikael Jungner did not take a view on the possibility of the three largest parties joining forces, but stated that the biggest winners in the election, the True Finns, should be in the government. Jungner emphasised that the ball was now in NCP chair Jyrki Katainen’s court.
The Centre Party’s party secretary Timo Laaninen did not want to give an opinion on the likely composition of the next government. He seconded party chair Mari Kiviniemi’s view that as the biggest losers in the election, the Centre party should now move into opposition.
Laaninen guessed that negotiations could prove difficult because of the polarised positions different parties took on the proposed Eurozone bailout during the election campaign.
YLE
Its gonna be very hard to form government without True Finns as they other parties lost seats. Clearly one option is National Coalition, Social Democrat and True Finns making coalition government. I can't see Centre party joining any government talks as they lost lot of seats.
Well, can't say that I voted but then again I think our voting system is misleading and I don't have too positive thoughts towards democracy anyway. Also I feel like people aren't taking it seriously enough.
That said if they are not happy with the incoming culture, religion and people I hope they present a valid option and not just decide to kick out all the refugees and be like "lol, not our problem". If not, then I hope they start by getting rid of the judochristianity, that has been raping our culture for more than 500 years. It's just funny how these right wing political parties make people believe they have some God given right to the land & we really can just shut ourselves in in a little corner of the Earth. And like the people living there now never came and stole the land themselves -.-
But again I'm not in high hopes as finns are some of the most close-minded and stubborn people in the world, once you manipulate them onto your side they won't stop and think for some time. You won't see pictures of crowds burning flags and flailing guns but that's about it.
I think people are really not understanding finland and Finnish culture. Because of the very high reputation Finland has, you assume that people are nice and friendly. Well, I got a news for you, there is the same proportion of jerks here than anywhere else. If you could define a Finn in three word, it would be Cold, Jealous, stubborn. Is this the kind of person you would expect to fall for an anti-immigration stuff?
Finland's reputation on the other side is built on honesty and trust. Finland 30 years ago, was almost crimeless. There exists also a strong culture of taking the justice in your own hands. So a vote for populist is the civilized way for people to express that other political parties have fail to solve problems that worries Finns.
One other thing that people don't understand about Finland is the racism. Many people have told this clichee that Finn's haven't even seen an immigrant. In Finland, if you don't work your ass off, fight a war and build your own house at the same time, you are not a man. So there is usually a big respect for Asian immigrants that will learn the language in one year, have a business, integrate. And there is the Somali problem that doesn't integrate. There are many contradiction, you can really see Finns being friendly to foreigners and at the same time tell most horrible racist jokes without even understanding what is racist or that the context is inappropriate. I wouldn't say the Finnish are xenophobic, they are just xenosceptic with a very low tolerence to bullshit even by finns themselves, this means that view will be easily perceived as racist even if the reaction would be the same to a Finn, the only difference is that a Finn knows the local culture and doesn't make those mistakes.
I would never vote for true finns. They are the worst kind of Leftist conservationist that exist. I really laugh when people are thinking that 20% votes for extreme right. They just cant be placed anywhere as they have no serious proposition and if their program would be implemented, the country would be ruined fast.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
It might be due to the translation engine but I am unable to verify your claims. All I've read was about foreigners being accused of rape and it wasn't 25% of the cases. Please specify.
Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
On April 19 2011 16:44 Rflcrx wrote: It might be due to the translation engine but I am unable to verify your claims. All I've read was about foreigners being accused of rape and it wasn't 25% of the cases. Please specify.
The graph. Raiskaus means rape. The latter box is percentage of a given crime commited by immigrants.
On April 19 2011 16:46 aderum wrote: Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
And you must not have even gotten far enough to drop out from high school because I didn't actually make any comment about what is the actual cause of the crimes nor did I imply anything. It is like, where did you pull that out from? Why would you say such a thing to me? It doesn't make any sense.
On April 19 2011 17:05 aderum wrote: When you are talking about immegrants representing 25% of the rapes commited without giving reasons to why, it becomes clear what your opinions are.
Actually, they don't become clear at all. Only thing that is clear from what I said is that I corrected a factually incorrect statement. Anything else is a fantasy conceived in your mind.
On April 19 2011 17:00 Squeegy wrote: The graph. Raiskaus means rape. The latter box is percentage of a given crime commited by immigrants.
As far as I understand it the graph has nothing to do with crimes commited but it is about suspects. Please be more specific/directly quote what you mean/translate it (as it seems google language changes "commited" to "suspected").
Biggest problem in the immegrants is not that they come its just for some ****ing stupid reason they are giving more money to immegrants than students in overall. I mean there has been several TV stuff about it and it has been written in some newspapers.
If they will get over 2000€ in month without doing anything NO WONDER people are so pissed off, just like me.
Also there are the grey market and construction companies are paying so low paycheck that they just won't hire anymore finnish people, just foreign.
Personally I hope to see some things happening, I am not a racist and I do not want to change anything else than that they should give more to students instead of foreign people and unemployees.
Politics are about compromise. You're lucky if you've found a party that fits your ideology 100%. For the rest of us, we need to find a party that match our thoughts and/or beliefs the most.
That's most likely a reason why the percentage is so high, people may look at it like this: "Well, I agree we shouldn't give our money away. If they don't pay back our pension money is in danger. Oh, and I agree the minimum age of pension shouldn't be raised. I'm not so sure about this whole immigration deal, though."
That would be 2/3 of things they agree with, that you might not find from other parties.
--
But anyway, think I'm done here. I don't even really care about politics, just thought to write my own opinions and thoughts as to what has happened. Time to play some starcraft.
So let's say there is a party which has a program of exactly 3 things: Mandatory Starcraft training in public schools, Free Candy for everyone and Exterminating <insert racial minority>. But hey, you agree with 2/3 of their program, you just aren't that sure about the extermination part, should vote for them, right?
I'm not saying that True Finns will begin exterminating anyone, however their platform certainly has a few things that should make a rational person pause and seriously reconsider before voting for them.
On April 19 2011 16:46 aderum wrote: Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
Let's see what kind of answer your media has brainwashed for you about this.
On April 19 2011 16:46 aderum wrote: Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
So let's say there is a party which has a program of exactly 3 things: Mandatory Starcraft training in public schools, Free Candy for everyone and Exterminating <insert racial minority>. But hey, you agree with 2/3 of their program, you just aren't that sure about the extermination part, should vote for them, right?
If mandatory starcraft training and free candy outweigh extermination in your personal opinion, then yes, you should vote for that party. That is democracy. You vote for whoever the fuck you want. Hopefully, you look into your candidate/party prior to, though.
Now, obviously any reasonable person wouldn't vote for that kind of stuff.
About there being a "platform" for any kind of extreme stuff: I don't personally see it. Most of the immigrant-involved laws were "tightened" by the last government. True Finns aren't even proposing any additional new laws or correction of already in place laws.
Currently, Finland is a very safe place to live in. Even in the capital city of Helsinki there are barely any areas where you cannot go at night alone. People are afraid of this changing as a result of immigrant gangs and such -- even the KRP (National Bureau of Investigation) has warned that there are already some violent immigrant gangs forming.
It's basic human logic. If things are changing so you feel afraid of letting your kids go to school, or to let your wife take a jog in the evening, of-motherfucking-course you're going to vote for a party that promises to take a stricter stance against the bad apples. And only the bad apples.
Oh well. At least I managed to pick out and vote for the party that didn't want to enter into a coalition with True Finns. Thanks for the link (on page 1), btw, it was a great help
Oh, and for those that don't bother: A quick summary of page 4 in the PDF in Squuegy's post: In 2005, a foreigner was the suspect in 21% of the rapes. However, if one reads a little further, one sees that in 27% of those cases, the suspect was an Estonian, meaning that this is not statistics about just refugees, but all kinds of immigrants. Moreover, rape might be the one crime where the fewest incidents are actually reported, because so many of them are committed by family or someone close. A 2008 Norwegian estimate (I'll use that, because I don't know the term for dark figure in Finnish), estimates that about 10% of all rapes are actually reported. Assuming then, that the number is roughly the same for Finland, and that those 10% or close to it, are those that are committed by unknown persons and not by family or friends, we should assume that those 21% foreigners are really 21% out of the 10% of all rapes reported. To be fair, we should assume that out of those those 90% not reported, about 2,7% (the number of foreigners in Finland), are committed by foreigners, giving us a grand total of (21% * 10 ) + (2,7% * 90 ) ≈ 4,5%, meaning that 2,7% of the population is responsible for 4,5% of the rape crimes. That's still an overrepresentation, but very far from the 25% initially reported...
In conclusion, I'd say there's a very big difference between "25% of all rapes are done by foreigners" and "in 21% of all reported cases, the suspect was a foreigner"...
I was suspecting the very same, but I don't speak the language, thanks for your help in clearing that up.
I would also assume that such claims, one might even say lies, create a hostile enviroment with lots of racism, but it might just been a missunderstand/naive way of thinking. Either way, I would be very careful with any claims, especially when talking about emotional topics like foreigners or rape.
On April 19 2011 17:00 Squeegy wrote: The graph. Raiskaus means rape. The latter box is percentage of a given crime commited by immigrants.
As far as I understand it the graph has nothing to do with crimes commited but it is about suspects. Please be more specific/directly quote what you mean/translate it (as it seems google language changes "commited" to "suspected").
You're actually completely right, I confused commit with accused. I assumed your problem was with the percentage thus I managed to miss it in your post.
On April 19 2011 17:48 spede wrote: It's basic human logic. If things are changing so you feel afraid of letting your kids go to school, or to let your wife take a jog in the evening, of-motherfucking-course you're going to vote for a party that promises to take a stricter stance against the bad apples. And only the bad apples.
So, do other parties in Finland not recognize this as a problem or are they simply not willing to address it? Tougher penalties, which seems to be what True Finns is proposing is most likely not the right answer to this. However, if they are the only party that have even recognized it as a problem, then fair enough.
As for my previous post, don't think for a second that people won't vote for such a party, all you need to do is disguise the last point as something else. The more people agree with the rest of your views, the thinner the disguise can be.
Immigrants come here ONLY bc they know we give them free house, free money (tons if know what to do) and they can invite their "familys" to live here free and get income too with no worries about going to work. They are very rude people bc we are very calm people and are not used to that kinda living. The fact is that they make A SIGNIFICANT amount of crimes and rapes here espoo/helsinki/vantaa area, that is just true and cannot be dodged.
On April 19 2011 18:06 FinBenton wrote: The fact is that they make A SIGNIFICANT amount of crimes and rapes here espoo/helsinki/vantaa area, that is just true and cannot be dodged.
They poison wells as well, right? You just can't proof it, but you don't need to, because it is a fact and true.
On April 19 2011 18:06 FinBenton wrote: Immigrants come here ONLY bc they know we give them free house, free money (tons if know what to do) and they can invite their "familys" to live here free and get income too with no worries about going to work. They are very rude people bc we are very calm people and are not used to that kinda living. The fact is that they make A SIGNIFICANT amount of crimes and rapes here espoo/helsinki/vantaa area, that is just true and cannot be dodged.
No they come to finland bc they couldnt stay in thier country bc of war/starvation etc. Nobody wants to leave thier house home and family and go to another country and culture, but they have to in order to survive.
I am sad that ignorant people like you are a part of the Tl-community.
On April 19 2011 18:06 FinBenton wrote: The fact is that they make A SIGNIFICANT amount of crimes and rapes here espoo/helsinki/vantaa area, that is just true and cannot be dodged.
They poison wells as well, right? You just can't proof it, but you don't need to, because it is a fact and true.
Its been many times on the news so I dont lie, if you dont know our situation and dont live here then dont talk like you do.
e. And im not a racist, immigrants with education and a will to go to work are always welcome if they try to integrate and dont make crimes. Mut people from somalia and romania come here only for free money. I mean why live in crazy country trying to work when you can come here with your kids and get a house + 10-40k year for absolutely free AND you dont go to jail from sexual crimes?
On April 19 2011 01:55 skutz wrote: I'd say it's more of a learned opinion than a personal preference. Even the one guy who supports True Finns in this thread (Mayhemia) called them stupid. He also said "Nazi party, political disease, hate party, if it were so I would have voted for them," just as a headsup for what type of person defends the PS.
Well, it´s not the personal preference to clear out some misunderstandings. I do not believe in emotional politics, which people seem to prefer in here. It´s emotical to shout out that TrueFinns are nazis etc. It is however incorrect.
I personally do not support them, because yes, they are not intelligent people at all, or well, small minority of them are capable of political work. Still I think that they are going to mess up most of time.
Also, yes, I do openly favor NS policies. Whilst the adaption in Germany had infamous results, I do believe NS would be best option. However, as every political system, it needs perfect people to work perfectly. Everyone knows this is not possible. Even then, I prefer real Far-Right parties consisting of boneheads since at least they are truthful and passionate. TrueFinns on the other hand are in the end same Bullcrap in a new package. There´s no evidence that Finland´s policies would change drastically due to TrueFinns making it in to the main governing coalition. Even the Portugal package is in danger because of Social Democrats and TrueFinns combined. Not only because couple of redneck hillbillies. Now add up the fact that immigration is a hot topic at the moment, and most if not all parties have pressure to tighten the rather liberal immigration laws. I do not think that any "change" is actually due to TrueFinns, but more likely due to the opinions as a whole.
A lot of people who dislike immigration dislike the TrueFinns even more.
Even some of my friends who are clearly leftist are laughing at alleged nazi accusations, due to the fact that NSDAP was on a completely different level, and spewing pointless misinformation on the forums ain´t really profitable.
On April 19 2011 16:46 aderum wrote: Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
Hahaha just must be fucking joking with me. My media brainwashing me? And then you send me a video from an open racist and opponent of multiculture.
I can send you just as many videos of "aryan"people being violent and fighting as you can send me videos of "muslims" being violent and fighting, so trying to use that video as an argument just proves to the rest of us just how ignorant and stupid you are.
On April 19 2011 16:46 aderum wrote: Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
Hahaha just must be fucking joking with me. My media brainwashing me? And then you send me a video from an open racist and opponent of multiculture.
I can send you just as many videos of "aryan"people being violent and fighting as you can send me videos of "muslims" being violent and fighting, so trying to use that video as an argument just proves to the rest of us just how ignorant and stupid you are.
On April 19 2011 18:06 FinBenton wrote: Immigrants come here ONLY bc they know we give them free house, free money (tons if know what to do) and they can invite their "familys" to live here free and get income too with no worries about going to work. They are very rude people bc we are very calm people and are not used to that kinda living. The fact is that they make A SIGNIFICANT amount of crimes and rapes here espoo/helsinki/vantaa area, that is just true and cannot be dodged.
No they come to finland bc they couldnt stay in thier country bc of war/starvation etc. Nobody wants to leave thier house home and family and go to another country and culture, but they have to in order to survive.
I am sad that ignorant people like you are a part of the Tl-community.
Sure some have to escape war. Shouldn't mean that they don't have to work in the country they run to.
On April 19 2011 18:06 FinBenton wrote: The fact is that they make A SIGNIFICANT amount of crimes and rapes here espoo/helsinki/vantaa area, that is just true and cannot be dodged.
They poison wells as well, right? You just can't proof it, but you don't need to, because it is a fact and true.
You can translate that if you want. When it comes to sexual crimes, we have like 3% immigrants and over 30% of sexual crimes are made by immigrants... And then you ask why are people voting for true finns? BC they love their wifes and girlfriends.
Yo, they seriously get shitloads of money if they play their buttons right. No wonder everyone walks here with new iPhones and 200 € worth jeans and shit.
EDIT Expect students and rest of the residents. ( Unless they are wealthy)
On April 19 2011 18:20 aderum wrote: No they come to finland bc they couldnt stay in thier country bc of war/starvation etc. Nobody wants to leave thier house home and family and go to another country and culture, but they have to in order to survive.
I am sad that ignorant people like you are a part of the Tl-community.
Some do, some do not. There was a long article where they interviewed one of the more honest somalis. He told the interviewer that some of the immigrants are real mad eggs, who just come here to suck money out of our pockets.
Why stay home when you can live well with other people´s money? Also, due to the family connection laws a lot of immigrants use other people´s children or even sell their own for smugglers. Once you get the kid in Finland, he/she can request family unification and suddenly 10-15 people who would have never been allowed in are coming lawfully in Finland.
Also, it is not long since there was a somali woman in court who had cheated 50k euros annually from the welfare system in Finland. These kind of people do not belong here, and they are the reason why immigrants are hated and seen as lazy suckers.
Heck, even the decent immigrants recognize this.
Basically, we have enough criminals and suckers of our own whom we can´t just send in Sweden or somewhere else to be their problem. Why should we bear the burden of people unfit to live in western system? At least send back the problematic people.
On April 19 2011 19:17 PeZuY wrote: Yo, they seriously get shitloads of money if they play their buttons right. No wonder everyone walks here with new iPhones and 200 € worth jeans and shit.
EDIT Expect students and rest of the residents. ( Unless they are wealthy)
Yeah normally news are pretty quiet about how much immigrants get but sometime ago there was one case in the news about immigrant mom with few kids and she had free big house in the center of Helsinki and free income about 40k€ (if you have more kids you get more money). Of course normally they dont get that much but that just tells what they can get when they know papers to apply.
On April 19 2011 18:20 aderum wrote: No they come to finland bc they couldnt stay in thier country bc of war/starvation etc. Nobody wants to leave thier house home and family and go to another country and culture, but they have to in order to survive.
I am sad that ignorant people like you are a part of the Tl-community.
Some do, some do not. There was a long article where they interviewed one of the more honest somalis. He told the interviewer that some of the immigrants are real mad eggs, who just come here to suck money out of our pockets.
Why stay home when you can live well with other people´s money? Also, due to the family connection laws a lot of immigrants use other people´s children or even sell their own for smugglers. Once you get the kid in Finland, he/she can request family unification and suddenly 10-15 people who would have never been allowed in are coming lawfully in Finland.
Also, it is not long since there was a somali woman in court who had cheated 50k euros annually from the welfare system in Finland. These kind of people do not belong here, and they are the reason why immigrants are hated and seen as lazy suckers.
Heck, even the decent immigrants recognize this.
Basically, we have enough criminals and suckers of our own whom we can´t just send in Sweden or somewhere else to be their problem. Why should we bear the burden of people unfit to live in western system? At least send back the problematic people.
Ofc, there will be bad people from somalia, but there are bad people from finland to, so shouldn't you want them out to?
Edit: Im gonna stop to look here now, there are to many ignorant people here for me to handle and i am probably gonna get warned again... so k thx bai
On April 19 2011 18:20 aderum wrote: No they come to finland bc they couldnt stay in thier country bc of war/starvation etc. Nobody wants to leave thier house home and family and go to another country and culture, but they have to in order to survive.
I am sad that ignorant people like you are a part of the Tl-community.
Some do, some do not. There was a long article where they interviewed one of the more honest somalis. He told the interviewer that some of the immigrants are real mad eggs, who just come here to suck money out of our pockets.
Why stay home when you can live well with other people´s money? Also, due to the family connection laws a lot of immigrants use other people´s children or even sell their own for smugglers. Once you get the kid in Finland, he/she can request family unification and suddenly 10-15 people who would have never been allowed in are coming lawfully in Finland.
Also, it is not long since there was a somali woman in court who had cheated 50k euros annually from the welfare system in Finland. These kind of people do not belong here, and they are the reason why immigrants are hated and seen as lazy suckers.
Heck, even the decent immigrants recognize this.
Basically, we have enough criminals and suckers of our own whom we can´t just send in Sweden or somewhere else to be their problem. Why should we bear the burden of people unfit to live in western system? At least send back the problematic people.
Ofc, there will be bad people from somalia, but there are bad people from finland to, so shouldn't you want them out to?
Edit: Im gonna stop to look here now, there are to many ignorant people here for me to handle and i am probably gonna get warned again... so k thx bai
Sure. In Finland pedophiles that molest/rape (and get caught obviously) don't even go to prison 100%. In fact probably more of them go on probation than to prison and if they go to prison it's for like 2 months- so of course there are other problems too. Thought that was obvious. But why would anyone intentionally want to increase problems.
And if you have so bad luck after rape that you have to go to prison for a few months, no worry, its like a hotel. Here prisoners can make more than 2000€/month in jail so its actually pretty good if you get in.
Well anyway, I might have sounded more critical(or racist if u really want to) than i actually am but even if you criticize immigration doesn't mean u r racist and want to ban all immigration. Just need to admit it's not all good either.
I have to point out that the way PS is translated sort of gives the wrong impression. Perussuomalaiset would rather be Basic Finns and not True Finns. 'True Finns' sounds more "agressive" (if you will) to me. Also throwing out the nazi card is just overreacting. PS is, in my opinion, a populist party without working solutions for our problems. As I see it, they gained votes by giving easy solutions to deep and complicated problems.
Also I agree with
On April 19 2011 02:13 Vaelone wrote: I would imagine that Kokoomus (Coalition?) will keep "True Finns" in a fairly tight leash and "True Finns" won't be able to come through with most of the promises they made, and it's probably better that way.
I am an 18-year-old student with not that much experience in politics, but I did do some research before voting. Bear this in mind before 'flaming'.
I voted for Kokoomus. Some think that they are populists, but their program was the one I agreed with most, since it made sense to me.
Ofc, there will be bad people from somalia, but there are bad people from finland to, so shouldn't you want them out to?
No, they are our problem. It would not be fair to the other countries. However, if you ask my opinion, yes I´d love to send them away. Principle behind it just is not justified, so I would not do it, even if it is a tempting option.
(Even better, I´d put a ball & chain to the leg and dump them in sea)
On April 19 2011 20:13 4mgg wrote: ...As I see it, they gained votes by giving easy solutions to deep and complicated problems...
Taking a stab in the dark here since I'm not that involved in Finnish politics, but the "complicated problems" that they gave "easy solutions" to, are they problems that the other parties refused to acknowledge existance of in the first place?
Last year in Sweden, if you as much as mentioned the word "immigration" media would publically behead you (figuratively speaking).
Anyone speaking about immigration in negative tone got jumped on by the whole media. People do get angry because majority of people I have met are just a little bit racists at least inside if not publicly. When someone finally says what people think, they get crucified. Not a wonder that people voiced the support to the more or less mediocre party, which would at least speak for them.
The True Finns remind me to our "Swiss People Party".
Basically its toying around with peoples fear and ignorance, true populists... If you say u don't want criminal immigrants, good job, no one wants them... One the same page u can't hold responsible all immigrants or even all immigrants from another country for the deeds of a few...
We have thi famous argument with the prison statistics where we have proportionally a lot more immigrants in prisons compared to their actual size. But few people mention that it has a lot to do with the social background (poor, lack of perspective) rather than the origin.
And btw. Finnland got about 4% immigrants... that's pretty much nothing... to compare we have around 18-20% (not exactly sure) and still our state isn't collapsing...
You can have opinions about the EU and european or international integration as you want and like. But I think it's weak of a party to play on peoples fear and ignorance while the task of politicians should be to educate people and offering them different honest solutions and alternatives to actual problems.
I say down with the populists, whereever they are!...
Edit: Even if it sounds deeply undemocratic, I honestly think some people should not have a party to speak for them or even get involved in politics. Nothing good ever comes from racism and hate. I think the democratic argument is weaker then the one to prevent racism (thats by the way, at least here, you can't say anything you want about jews, blacks or anyone, even if you think so... Which is a good thing!..)
Those populist parties play on the latent racism of a large part of the population... sad and a problem in our political system, since racist people get a voice through such parties. This should'nt be...
No, for a reason there are civil and human rights, since politicians should not just do what people want. Thats how fascism happened... Politicians should responsibly represent their people. Which includes different opinions but doesn't includes racism etc. (Which is what those parties are essentially based on, even if no one admits it...)
On April 19 2011 20:26 Danjoh wrote: Taking a stab in the dark here since I'm not that involved in Finnish politics, but the "complicated problems" that they gave "easy solutions" to, are they problems that the other parties refused to acknowledge existance of in the first place?
Immigration is one of the 'problems', yes. (As has been discussed in this thread.) PS has been talking about more strict immigration policies, very general ideas without too much depth in them. NATO/foreign policy, public services, retirement age, nuclear power, taxes and education were the general subjects of discussion before the election. (Leaving immigration out of this, since PS is only one that has been really active about it, unless I have missed something huge.) PS has really general and broad ideas with little detail about everything. Other parties have been focusing on a few subjects instead. Immigration is still a very volatile thing to talk about and most of the major parties have been very precautious about it.
So to answer your question, the other parties do acknowledge the immigration 'problem', but are very careful about it, since it really stirs up alot of conservation and different opinions between people.
PS has SOME ideas I agree with, but their solutions just don't feel solid solid enough.
I am not very comfortable talking about politics and you shouldn't base your vision about finnish politics on what I write. I am interested in politics but I could be horribly wrong. If so, someone who knows our politics point out my misunderstandings and call me a noob.
On April 19 2011 20:44 Szordrin wrote: I say down with the populists, whereever they are!...
"True finns" dont want to stop all immigration <_> they just want all the leechers out of the system and only immigrants who come here to WORK not just SIT AROUND all day and rape at night. /nuff said
Only good thing about "true finns" is that atleast its not only 3 big parties now that rule with an iron fist. Maybe smthing will change for the better.
"We want leechers out of the system". Who doesn't? How do you do it? "Well..." A very populist thing to say, just like Szordrin pointed out.
On April 19 2011 20:44 Szordrin wrote: Basically its toying around with peoples fear and ignorance, true populists... If you say u don't want criminal immigrants, good job, no one wants them...
"The True Finns believe that all the important Finnish art has already been done and the task of today's culture is to worship it and copy it in order to strengthen Finnish identity. There is no need for anything new."
On April 19 2011 21:20 Sh0guni wrote: "The True Finns believe that all the important Finnish art has already been done and the task of today's culture is to worship it and copy it in order to strengthen Finnish identity. There is no need for anything new."
Guys seriously
This aint looking good
Source on that? Sounds like a very radical opinion and I haven't heard this one before..
Immigrate bums get the same money as finnish bums... The reason why lot of immigrates use welfrare system is because they dont get jobs, cause they dont know the language. Would u hire african/arabic/asian person who dosnt speak finnish ? We need spend more money on dissolving immigrats to Finland. When this is done better they can enter the worklife more easily.
When looking at the crimerates, may I remind that finnish ppl were leading the same rates at Sweden in the 60's... Mainly cause they didnt have jobs, didnt know the language etc. Not anymore cause the ppl have integrated better to Sweden.
The truth is our ppl r aging and we need lot more taxpayers soon. High educated persons dont come to Finland -_-.
On April 19 2011 21:29 kroko wrote: The reason why lot of immigrates use welfrare system is because they dont get jobs, cause they dont know the language. .
I highly doubt that this is the main reason. Theres so many immigrants in the school right know who doesn't even BOTHER to learn finnish. Ive seen it, my friends has seen it, everyone knows that. When they were in their home land they were used to work somehow to get their living. Now its the opposite. Why would they want to go to work if they get the living for free now? Doing _nothing_.
On April 19 2011 21:20 Sh0guni wrote: "The True Finns believe that all the important Finnish art has already been done and the task of today's culture is to worship it and copy it in order to strengthen Finnish identity. There is no need for anything new."
Guys seriously
This aint looking good
Source on that? Sounds like a very radical opinion and I haven't heard this one before..
On April 19 2011 18:06 FinBenton wrote: The fact is that they make A SIGNIFICANT amount of crimes and rapes here espoo/helsinki/vantaa area, that is just true and cannot be dodged.
They poison wells as well, right? You just can't proof it, but you don't need to, because it is a fact and true.
You can translate that if you want. When it comes to sexual crimes, we have like 3% immigrants and over 30% of sexual crimes are made by immigrants... And then you ask why are people voting for true finns? BC they love their wifes and girlfriends.
Why would they want to go to work if they get the living for free now? Doing _nothing_.
Because u make better money working.. The welfare money is really weak tbh..
Well obviously.. but yet you can't see them whine about the money they get from the government. So seems that they are pretty "well-off" with it. Even tho it sounds ridiculous.
Why would they want to go to work if they get the living for free now? Doing _nothing_.
Because u make better money working.. The welfare money is really weak tbh..
Perhaps, but some people value their leisure time more than working 40 hours a week only to make a minimal amount more. I'd rather take 30,000$ for free and not work, than make 50,000$ and work 40 hours a week. Too many people completely overlook peoples subjective valuations.
Why would they want to go to work if they get the living for free now? Doing _nothing_.
Because u make better money working.. The welfare money is really weak tbh..
Perhaps, but some people value their leisure time more than working 40 hours a week only to make a minimal amount more. I'd rather take 30,000$ for free and not work, than make 50,000$ and work 40 hours a week. Too many people completely overlook peoples subjective valuations.
Me too.
If u r unemployed u get something like 500€ + 80% ur rent. Minus taxes. Per month. So nothing sweet. And for every kid u get some extra money. Now I dont know the exact figures (cause I dont really care) but this r much closer then ppl post here.
Bottom line is we need foreigners to pay our pensions etc. Birthrate atm is too low, eventho I try to make babies with every lady I meet.
If u r unemployed u get something like 500€ + 80% ur rent. Minus taxes. Per month. So nothing sweet. And for every kid u get some extra money. Now I dont know the exact figures (cause I dont really care) but this r much closer then ppl post here.
Negative, it depends from a lot of factors. Also, if you have 600€ rent that is 480€ + the 417€ (yeah, it´s not 500 but 417€) + your bills + monthly bus ticket + some random bonuses (kids, hobbies, even glasses/and other useful stuff), for example you can gain extra if you have a hobby which you need to pay for monthly.
For example, some immigrants "sell" eye glasses. They have a decent immigrant pay for them about half the price, then let them use their ID to get the glasses. Afterwards Finland pays for the glasses which never went to the right person.
Sudden realization that the shitty jobs earn you anything between 900-1500 euros/month and you are already gaining about 1000 euros easily via welfare handouts.
There are many other scams that immigrants may apply with ease. The system sucks imo anyways, because some Finns do exploit it same way. Mostly leftists / anarchists etc.
Well guys... then you don't have a problem with immigrants but a problem with your incentive system in social issues. Nothing to do with those foreign guys who are sooo mean
And just repeating it again, u have 4%!!! forreigners in your beatiful nordic country which is to cold for most guys anyway Compare it to mid europe we are all around 15-20% id say... And it works fine for some cases and not so good for others. The point is u r complaining on a high level.
Today there are two ways to go: 1. We close the border and live our own live (which works really good for North Korea for example and guess why no one else acts like this ^^) or 2. We regulate immigration and provide programs to the immigrant to facilitate integration in our society... The point is just that the solution isn't to say "They are all bad, we don't want them". The world ain't working like that anymore, this is dangerously shortsighted.
btw. we need immigrants anyway due to demographic developments...
My personal opinion on this issue is that we shouldn't think so much for ourselves and show some solidarity. But in the same time the government !has to! enact fitting immigrational and social policies. I agree completely that it's not okay to abuse the system or to throw money at every lazy guy whereever he is from. But again, people are mixing up subjects... but ofc its also about election campaigns on which topic u go for...
Btw. we have an interesting idea here in Switzerland by some people. Everyone receives 2k Swiss Francs (around 1600 Euro) for free but all social services get eliminated. You can decide if you want to work yourself... you could also work 50% or whatever. Advantage: No Social System abuse anymore, no tensions, less administrative costs... Disadvantage: A lot of people who don't actually need it receive money. And costs would bee around the same as they are now...
Btw. we have an interesting idea here in Switzerland by some people. Everyone receives 2k Swiss Francs (around 1600 Euro) for free but all social services get eliminated. You can decide if you want to work yourself... you could also work 50% or whatever. Advantage: No Social System abuse anymore, no tensions, less administrative costs... Disadvantage: A lot of people who don't actually need it receive money. And costs would bee around the same as they are now...
The disadvantage of the idea can be calculated away when deciding tax rates for different income groups. The payment would replace the reduced taxes for people with low income.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
Two questions comes to mind. 1: Why are these statistics even interesting? It only shows that your country is so bad at recieving immigrants. Education prevents crime for instance. 2: Immigrants probably write the country that they're citizens in as their country in these kind of things, so 25% of all your rapes are commited by tourists and people awaiting the citizenship? Yeah.. no..
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
Two questions comes to mind. 1: Why are these statistics even interesting? It only shows that your country is so bad at recieving immigrants. Education prevents crime for instance. 2: Immigrants probably write the country that they're citizens in as their country in these kind of things, so 25% of all your rapes are commited by tourists and people awaiting the citizenship? Yeah.. no..
Do I even need to answere your last question?
Of course not. You are obviously just as close minded as racists.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
Two questions comes to mind. 1: Why are these statistics even interesting? It only shows that your country is so bad at recieving immigrants. Education prevents crime for instance. 2: Immigrants probably write the country that they're citizens in as their country in these kind of things, so 25% of all your rapes are commited by tourists and people awaiting the citizenship? Yeah.. no..
Do I even need to answere your last question?
Of course not. You are obviously just as close minded as racists.
Yeah I'm close minded. I think everyone deserves a chance to a decent life, regardless of skin colour or ethnecity. So close minded I'm probably almost insane.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
Two questions comes to mind. 1: Why are these statistics even interesting? It only shows that your country is so bad at recieving immigrants. Education prevents crime for instance. 2: Immigrants probably write the country that they're citizens in as their country in these kind of things, so 25% of all your rapes are commited by tourists and people awaiting the citizenship? Yeah.. no..
Do I even need to answere your last question?
But you can't force him to be educated. If you think people don't do enough work for informating immigrants about education and language courses, where do you place your facts? Personal experience? And someone stated that If you dont need education and you get money from goverment why bother some may think AS they come from other culture. That also (imo) explain the rape percentage when female is kept at lower value than male in other culture.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
Two questions comes to mind. 1: Why are these statistics even interesting? It only shows that your country is so bad at recieving immigrants. Education prevents crime for instance. 2: Immigrants probably write the country that they're citizens in as their country in these kind of things, so 25% of all your rapes are commited by tourists and people awaiting the citizenship? Yeah.. no..
Do I even need to answere your last question?
1. Because they strongly imply that immigrants do indeed commit more crimes than native Finns. Something that you denied.
2. I don't understand what you mean. I'm guessing something like that many, say, Estonians who have received citizenship in Finland list themselves as Finnish people?
On April 20 2011 01:01 Szordrin wrote: Well guys... then you don't have a problem with immigrants but a problem with your incentive system in social issues. Nothing to do with those foreign guys who are sooo mean
Abusers, abusing a great system? Your solution: Change the system. We like our system. Guess our solution?
I am free of hate toward any minority. I hate True Finns for abusing the system their own way. Taking lots of electoral money for a job badly done. And this election will cost Finland more than it will save.
Here is an simple situation. In one mall, there are two groups of young people hanging out, it is few minutes before closing time and guards starts to ask them to leave. Group A is finnish. Group B is a minority. Both are treated the same way. You can now write a nice news about how guards are abusing power to get rid of immigrants from mall during opening hours.
Yes, Finland is racist and will always be racist, Finland will solve problems caused by the immigrants the same way that they will solve problem created by Finns.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that. Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
Two questions comes to mind. 1: Why are these statistics even interesting? It only shows that your country is so bad at recieving immigrants. Education prevents crime for instance. 2: Immigrants probably write the country that they're citizens in as their country in these kind of things, so 25% of all your rapes are commited by tourists and people awaiting the citizenship? Yeah.. no..
Do I even need to answere your last question?
Of course not. You are obviously just as close minded as racists.
Yeah I'm close minded. I think everyone deserves a chance to a decent life, regardless of skin colour or ethnecity. So close minded I'm probably almost insane.
Who doesn't? You are just splurting out images from the media which are simply not true.
Political parties have begun revealing their views on the next government's programme to the leader of coalition negotiations, Jyrki Katainen. The True Finns Party has already said that it cannot in good conscience support the Portugal rescue package or the creation of a permanent bailout fund, while SDP would want the rules for the international financial system reformed.
The True Finns also oppose increasing Finland's responsibilities in the European Stability Mechanism.
“Unfortunately we do not believe in the sustainability or the fairness of the measures adopted until now,” the answer reads.
The True Finns announce that they are ready to participate in negotiations for a National Coalition-led majority government on the basis of the election’s results.
Last week, National Coalition Party chair Jyrki Katainen asked other parties partaking in government negotiations to outline their views on the most important issues facing the next government. These include financial policies and EU commitments.
Coalition negotiations continue on Tuesday, once Katainen has considered the answers.
SDP: No common responsibility for debts
The other likely government partner, the Social Democratic Party, has not taken a firm stand on Portugal. In its answer the party says that the government should be active in securing the stability of the European economy and in preventing future crises.
SDP believes that the next government ought to aim to reform the rules of the game for the international financial system. This would include limitations on the risks banks can take, scrapping the bonus system for executives, a financial markets tax and private sector’s responsibility for risk investments.
”The central starting point should be a lack of common responsibility on all eurozone countries for one another’s finances and debts,” the party declares.
According to the SDP, international agreements already approved by the government must be honoured.
YLE
Seems like Portugal issue is still there and there are gonna be hard discussion what is going to happen now.
NOTE. Finland is only country in EU that its parliament votes for Portugal package.
The True Finns will not be part of the next Finnish government. They refuse to be part of a government that advances the eurozone bailout package.
The party does not accept the deal agreed yesterday between the Social Democrats and the National Coalition on the aid deal for Portugal.
Party chair Timo Soini made the announcement at a press conference on Thursday morning. He said the decision was made by the party itself, not the Prime Minister-designate Jyrki Katainen.
"It would have been nice to be part of the government, but you can't betray yourself," said Soini.
According to Soini, the decision was hard and will have tough political consequences. He added that the party's negotiator and executive committee were unanimous in the decision.
He added that nothing had really changed in EU policy, as the alterations are only skin-deep.
"We will become the main opposition party," said Soini.
So now National coalition party needs a lot of parties to form majority 3 minimum but maybe 4 to 5 at least.
Opposition (True Finns and Centre Party) 74 seats at the moment
Prime Minister-designate Jyrki Katainen seems to be forming 5 party coalition government (National Coalition Party, Social Democrats, Green League, Christian Democrats and Swedish People's Party).
Government seats = 112 Seats Opposition seats = 88 Seats (though could go down if Left Alliance joins coalition but unlikely)
Small minority and press is already saying it to be "Losers government" (due to True Finns winning election and not getting into coalition)
On May 13 2011 19:39 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Prime Minister-designate Jyrki Katainen seems to be forming 5 party coalition government (National Coalition Party, Social Democrats, Green League, Christian Democrats and Swedish People's Party).
Government seats = 112 Seats Opposition seats = 88 Seats (though could go down if Left Alliance joins coalition but unlikely)
Small minority and press is already saying it to be "Losers government" (due to True Finns winning election and not getting into coalition)
Government negotiations broke down Wednesday evening. Social Democrats and the Left Alliance left the negotiation table after 13 days of disagreement.
Lead negotiator and PM-designate, Jyrki Katainen (National Coalition Party) told reporters that the parties could not agree on employment or economic policy.
Issues about taxation were particularly difficult, Katainen said.
On Wednesday evening, Katainen said he would be in contact with the Centre Party leadership, but added he doesn’t know how the party is willing to participate in government negotiations.
Katainen said he doesn’t think the Left Alliance and the SDP will return to the negotiation table. He said that he plans to continue negotiating with the National Coalition Party, Christian Democratic Party, Swedish People's Party, the Greens and the Centre Party.
There have been talks of new election in next 3-5 months. Centre Party is in bad spot as they cant afford new election and they are losing more and more votes as new polls were released today. They might join to new coalition (which is 104 seats) but their party leader already said they are going to go opposition... We will see. This is weird system we are dealing with.
edit: Issue is about VAT tax. SDP and Left Alliance wont accept raise of VAT from 23% -> xx%
After two months of stops and starts Finland has a new coalition government with National Coalition Party Chair Jyrki Katainen at its head.
At 8.00 o'clock Friday evening leaders of the six parties convened a press conference to confirm that they had reached final agreement on a government agenda and that an administration would be formed.
The new Government Programme is entitled "An Open, Fair and Bold Finland".
The six-party programme will focus primarily on the stabilisation of public finances, reduction of poverty, inequality and discrimination and building lasting economic growth and employment as well as increasing competitiveness.
The incoming government plans to strengthen state finances to the tune of 2.5 billion euros, half of which will come from spending cuts, while the other half will come from taxation.
The right to mortgage interest reductions will be gradually reduced, while capital earnings taxes will be applied progressively, meaning that higher earnigns will be taxed more heavily.
YLE
So called Six-pack is now chosen as new government. True Finns and Centre Party are the opposition parties.
EPT![[image loading]](http://yle.fi/ecepic/archive/00391/17_3_Puoluekannatus_391806b.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://yle.fi/ecepic/archive/00391/17_3_Puoluekannatus_391805b.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://yle.fi/ecepic/archive/00399/eduskuntavaalit_vaa_399194b.jpg)
) wont solve that. Timo Soini wont get Finland out of EU. Humatarian help is in a EU law so we have to take refugees. ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/7/7b/Bevpyr_2050.png)
