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On April 19 2011 03:38 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:On April 19 2011 03:12 skutz wrote:
Is it incredibly bad faith or complete ignorance?
ignorance from his part i imagine, bad faith from the american media for emotionally charging words like 'socialist' 'capitalist' etc in their news I guess so. Saying we should go back yo 1830's doctrines is more or less like saying we should go back to XVIth century and restablish serfdom. Technically, it is really 13th Century, since the Magna Carta was a giant leap forward for human liberty. I suppose that is too old, and the Magna Carta is like serfdom, so we should just do away with that too. I think it is foolish to write off everything that once was as inferior, or worse. There was no income tax. No sales tax. Most of the states had outlawed socialist endeavors like internal improvements (State-roads, canals, etc.). There was no welfare so you were not getting stolen from. Perhaps you should read a bit of De Tocqueville. To call having an absence of taxation (for the most part) as serfdom is beyond Orwellian. Most of the world had outlawed slavery by 1830. Yes, I miss the lack of Republicanism. I guess I am a backward neanderthal to pine for a time when Government was nearly non-existent & you were free to pursue your dreams without interference. When society for the most part believed in voluntary relationships. When there was no Central Bank stealing your wealth and property and giving it to an aristocratic privileged class. I guess you guys do not know that my views in the MSM are nearly non-existent. The media hates those who hold my political views. Ironically, RussiaToday is probably the most libertarian channel (I guess they are trying to foment revolution like the CIA /shrug).
It's a bit like looking at Fox News. I don't even know where to start because everything is wrong.
First of all, your Magna Carta stuff applies only to England, and serfdom has existed in Russia until the 1917 revolution.
Orwell was a hardcore socialist, just that you know. I say that because I am annoyed to see uber-capitalist people think that Orwell would have been on their side with their crusade about "statism".
Now, you try to apply to the whole history what applies only to modern times, since you seem to think that modern State has always existed. That leads you to really gross misinterpretations, like when you say we lack Republicanism. Republicanism = less state = lol?
Ok, since you seem to ignore completely what Republicanism is: Republicanism is a movement which comes from what has been called civic humanism, during the XVIth century in Italy. The idea behind civic humanism, or neo-athenian humanism is that man is free only when he is protected from the arbitrary of the Fortune by the City. The main figure of Republicanism in XVIIIth century is typically Rousseau.
The alternative which was born at the same time was the neo-Roman humanism, or merchant humanism, which has more or less led to liberalism, and for which someone is free when nobody steps in his way to do what he wants.
I don't know what to say, because I really don't want to be agressive or rude, but I would just try to get a little bit better informed, because when you post stuff which look like bad propaganda such as:
When there was no Central Bank stealing your wealth and property and giving it to an aristocratic privileged class.
you can be sure that most readers die a little bit inside.
Oh, and I have read Tocqueville. I didn't realize it was the Bible though. And I haven't realized he had anything to do with the mad anti-tax paranoia of conservative americans today.
EDIT: maybe I got the stuff about republicanism backward, i don't get your sentence. Oh well.
On April 19 2011 03:27 FrozenSolid wrote:A lot of people are reading too much into the results of the election. Unless the True Finns find common ground with at least the National Coalition Party or the Social Democrats, they will not be included in forming the government. In the event that they do, serious concessions have to be made to reach a consensus on important decisions. Considering how different the three parties that are currently likely to form government are, any propositions or laws that are passed will not heavily favor the policies of any single one of the three biggest parties. Finnish foreign and immigration policies are unlikely to see radical change. At most, I expect limits to well-fare and other social services for immigrants based on how long they've been unemployed in relation to how long they've been under well-fare. A change that wouldn't be completely uncalled for from a financial perspective, even if it included Finns and not just immigrants as well. Most non-Nordics have a lack of perspective when it comes to Finnish politics. All of our parties are very similar when compared to French (whom we modeled our form of Parliament after) or even American political parties, which seem like they are worlds apart and harbor great animosity toward each other. All major Finnish parties agree on gradual taxation, the idea of a national Army with compulsory military or civil service for all Finnish males, free public education up to university-level, free healthcare and the likes. Negotiations frequently yield results, even between government parties and the opposition. Finland has a longstanding reputation of being a neutral/pseudo-neutral party or the mediator in conflicts, and that image is represented among all Finnish political parties. Politically, Finland is very unified. I don't mean to imply that there are no differing views or policies, far from it. I'm simply stating that the parties generally compromise with each other, especially in matters of foreign affairs. Even though the True Finns are against the EU, Finland will remain in the union and will contribute to the situation in Portugal. The thing in question is by how much, and that is what the True Finns will attempt to influence. I personally voted for an individual whose views I liked with no regard to which party was in question. I realize that this is a naive way to vote and that individualism has no place in politics, but it was either that or not vote at all (voting for the sleeper-party, as it's called) since I didn't really identify with any party. Regardless, my candidate didn't make it into parliament but there's always next election.  In the end, it will all be business as usual.
Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
When 1 French people out of 4 or 5 think that Marine Le Pen is the best person to represent them and their country, you can be sure that something is fucking damn wrong with French democracy and France as a country, although he doesn't even have a single member to the parliament.
Also, the problem with far right is that they are very good to impose their themes to political life. Means even if Marine Le Pen doesn't have a deputy, the only thing which is being discussed in French papers and french parliament is her agenda: foreigners, immigration, security, and all the same repressive / xenophobic / populistic (cross the ones you don't like) bullcrap.
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Most people who claim some kind of intellectual kinship with Tocqueville have not read him carefully enough. I understand that in the United States, Vol. 1 of Democracy is commonly read, and the far more important Vol. 2 is practically ignored.
While the Tea party may bemoan the awful prophetic truth of his chapter: "What Sort Of Despotism Democratic Nations Have To Fear," they often ignore "Why The Americans Display More Readiness And More Taste For General Ideas Than Their Forefathers, The English," which they play out to a T.
Although I suppose I should point out that his following chapter was titled: "Why The Americans Have Never Been So Eager As The French For General Ideas In Political Matters." Kind of makes Tocqueville St. John the divine of the Democratic age, as far as I'm concerned reading through tl.net.
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P.S. Yes, I am making fun of the fact that an American and a Frenchman have hijacked a thread about Finnish politics, in case you were wondering. 
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Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries.
Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc.
It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest).
It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes).
Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
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Just want to point out how sweet the butthurt coming from swedes is. Their citys are burning and 20% of budget goes to immigration, and they have the nerve preache us how to ruin our country too.
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On April 19 2011 04:43 MoltkeWarding wrote:P.S. Yes, I am making fun of the fact that an American and a Frenchman have hijacked a thread about Finnish politics, in case you were wondering.
Admit i am really damn good at hijacking threads.
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http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2011/04/three_largest_parties_to_start_negotiations_2526600.html
Both True Finns' leader Timo Soini and National Coalition party (NCP) chair Jyrki Katainen believe that a government composed of the three largest parties following Sunday's parliamentary vote is likely.
"It is a very probable option," said Katainen. "It would accord with the results of the election. Now we have to solve the content issues."
Soini agreed, saying that he was ready to begin negotiations on that basis.
"It's a starting point," Soini told YLE. "We can get things going from there and begin discussions. It's fine by me if that's the starting point. Then we have to solve the content issues."
Earlier, party secretaries gave a similar verdict on YLE's Aamu-TV breakfast show. The NCP secretary Taru Tujunen says that a government composed of the three largest parties – her own plus the Social Democrats (SDP) and the True Finns – would be a ”strong option”.
Different Negotiations
According to the Social Democrat party secretary, the True Finns’ place is in the government. According to Tujunen the coalition negotiations will be different to earlier discussions on government formation. She says that earlier governments have been formed by the two largest parties, which have then taken smaller parties in to make up the numbers.
This time round, the NCP, SDP and True Finns would be a strong option. According to True Finns’ leader Timo Soini, the goal is to have a majority government.
SDP party secretary Mikael Jungner did not take a view on the possibility of the three largest parties joining forces, but stated that the biggest winners in the election, the True Finns, should be in the government. Jungner emphasised that the ball was now in NCP chair Jyrki Katainen’s court.
The Centre Party’s party secretary Timo Laaninen did not want to give an opinion on the likely composition of the next government. He seconded party chair Mari Kiviniemi’s view that as the biggest losers in the election, the Centre party should now move into opposition.
Laaninen guessed that negotiations could prove difficult because of the polarised positions different parties took on the proposed Eurozone bailout during the election campaign.
YLE
Its gonna be very hard to form government without True Finns as they other parties lost seats. Clearly one option is National Coalition, Social Democrat and True Finns making coalition government. I can't see Centre party joining any government talks as they lost lot of seats.
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Well, can't say that I voted but then again I think our voting system is misleading and I don't have too positive thoughts towards democracy anyway. Also I feel like people aren't taking it seriously enough.
That said if they are not happy with the incoming culture, religion and people I hope they present a valid option and not just decide to kick out all the refugees and be like "lol, not our problem".
If not, then I hope they start by getting rid of the judochristianity, that has been raping our culture for more than 500 years.
It's just funny how these right wing political parties make people believe they have some God given right to the land & we really can just shut ourselves in in a little corner of the Earth.
And like the people living there now never came and stole the land themselves -.-
But again I'm not in high hopes as finns are some of the most close-minded and stubborn people in the world, once you manipulate them onto your side they won't stop and think for some time. You won't see pictures of crowds burning flags and flailing guns but that's about it.
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I think people are really not understanding finland and Finnish culture.
Because of the very high reputation Finland has, you assume that people are nice and friendly.
Well, I got a news for you, there is the same proportion of jerks here than anywhere else.
If you could define a Finn in three word, it would be Cold, Jealous, stubborn.
Is this the kind of person you would expect to fall for an anti-immigration stuff?
Finland's reputation on the other side is built on honesty and trust. Finland 30 years ago, was almost crimeless.
There exists also a strong culture of taking the justice in your own hands.
So a vote for populist is the civilized way for people to express that other political parties have fail to solve problems that worries Finns.
One other thing that people don't understand about Finland is the racism. Many people have told this clichee that Finn's haven't even seen an immigrant.
In Finland, if you don't work your ass off, fight a war and build your own house at the same time, you are not a man. So there is usually a big respect for Asian immigrants that will learn the language in one year, have a business, integrate. And there is the Somali problem that doesn't integrate.
There are many contradiction, you can really see Finns being friendly to foreigners and at the same time tell most horrible racist jokes without even understanding what is racist or that the context is inappropriate.
I wouldn't say the Finnish are xenophobic, they are just xenosceptic with a very low tolerence to bullshit even by finns themselves, this means that view will be easily perceived as racist even if the reaction would be the same to a Finn, the only difference is that a Finn knows the local culture and doesn't make those mistakes.
I would never vote for true finns. They are the worst kind of Leftist conservationist that exist. I really laugh when people are thinking that 20% votes for extreme right. They just cant be placed anywhere as they have no serious proposition and if their program would be implemented, the country would be ruined fast.
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On April 19 2011 04:43 Karok wrote:Show nested quote +Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries. Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc. It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest). It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes). Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct.
Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct.
First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that.
Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate.
If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it.
I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
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On April 19 2011 05:27 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 04:43 Karok wrote:Problem is not so much who does have the power and which laws will be voted, but rather the fact that xenophobic movements with extremely populstic discourse do represent today 20% of most european countries. Courtesty of the totally failed integration in most of the european countries, thanks to pampering of immigrants (free monies, housing before even their own citizens). In most european countries its the immigrants (african/arabic) that represent by far the largest share in crimes (rape, murder, theft, even stealing from old ladies), largest share in wellfare etc. It poses a huge burden on europe, and (no offence but..) spain, portugal, greece etc already are the wellfare takers of europe (yeah through IMF an entire country can just get a huge wellfare check from the rest). It is through the institutionalized EU that the richer countries are paying for the misbehavings of "lesser" countries, paying for immigrants that pose a huge burden on society (while only a relatively small percentage actually contributes). Its no wonder that all over europe these parties are gaining ground. They are the a result of the continental situation created by left-wing parties pampering immigrants and generally (seemingly) not giving a shit about their native population, only caring to be politically correct. Yeah that is BS though. Immigrants arn't violent because they're immigrants, that's neither historically, logically nor biologically correct. First of all, in my country you can't write down a person's skin colour in any crime register, as it's illegal. There is no statistics whatsoever of it, and still our racist party (which now is on 4%) claims that immigrants commit more crimes. Bull shit. They're pulling facts out of their ass, and everyone with a high school education should know that.Second of all, being bankrupt, having a doctor's exam and being forced to drive a taxi, because your new country won't even check up on your actual capabilities, because it's from another country is ridiculous. Most countries in Europe has an aging population. If we want to keep up a well fare standard in the future, we need more people. When Sweden (around the 1950-70s) was probably one of the most futuristic and, in comparison to population, industrious countries in the world, we also had the highest rate of immigrants. During the same period of time we had a ridiculously low crime rate. If people are left out of the system, they're going to do whatever they can to survive. It's your government's, and the people of your country's responsibility to work against racism and make good integration possible... Europe seems to be on it's way to be come a giant racist continent, which will bring nothing good with it. I work at a bank and I can tell you the customers that are the nicest and least aggressive are the middle eastern and the asian ones. How does that fare with the race biology that seems to be high up on the agenda in most EU countries?
Your skin colour is not the point. Your country of origin is and that is what they can write down. I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants. I wonder if you think me pointing out this makes me a racist too.
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On April 19 2011 15:24 Squeegy wrote:
I can show you the statistics where something like 25% of all rapes in Finland are done by immigrants.
Please do so (in english from a reputable source).
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It might be due to the translation engine but I am unable to verify your claims. All I've read was about foreigners being accused of rape and it wasn't 25% of the cases. Please specify.
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Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
User was warned for this post
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On April 19 2011 16:44 Rflcrx wrote:
It might be due to the translation engine but I am unable to verify your claims. All I've read was about foreigners being accused of rape and it wasn't 25% of the cases. Please specify.
The graph. Raiskaus means rape. The latter box is percentage of a given crime commited by immigrants.
On April 19 2011 16:46 aderum wrote:
Squeegy you must be an high school drop out if you think that high representation in crime register is bc of the immegrants coming from an middle eastern country and not the social surounding and options they are given by thier goverment
And you must not have even gotten far enough to drop out from high school because I didn't actually make any comment about what is the actual cause of the crimes nor did I imply anything. It is like, where did you pull that out from? Why would you say such a thing to me? It doesn't make any sense.
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When you are talking about immegrants representing 25% of the rapes commited without giving reasons to why, it becomes clear what your opinions are.
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On April 19 2011 17:05 aderum wrote:
When you are talking about immegrants representing 25% of the rapes commited without giving reasons to why, it becomes clear what your opinions are.
Actually, they don't become clear at all. Only thing that is clear from what I said is that I corrected a factually incorrect statement. Anything else is a fantasy conceived in your mind.
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On April 19 2011 17:00 Squeegy wrote:
The graph. Raiskaus means rape. The latter box is percentage of a given crime commited by immigrants.
As far as I understand it the graph has nothing to do with crimes commited but it is about suspects. Please be more specific/directly quote what you mean/translate it (as it seems google language changes "commited" to "suspected").
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Biggest problem in the immegrants is not that they come its just for some ****ing stupid reason they are giving more money to immegrants than students in overall. I mean there has been several TV stuff about it and it has been written in some newspapers.
If they will get over 2000€ in month without doing anything NO WONDER people are so pissed off, just like me.
Also there are the grey market and construction companies are paying so low paycheck that they just won't hire anymore finnish people, just foreign.
Personally I hope to see some things happening, I am not a racist and I do not want to change anything else than that they should give more to students instead of foreign people and unemployees.
Ps. so much overreaction in europe LOL
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EPT
