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On April 19 2011 01:37 skutz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 00:53 Wegandi wrote:On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices. People are scared, and that's never a good sign. On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917. Yeah, XIXth century has been so good... + Show Spoiler + Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda. Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.). PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland? You're an American who lives in the U.S.A? Please vote for your epic classical liberal 1832 pinoit Freedom Liberty Justice party over there, I'm sure it will work out really well.
I rarely vote, but was just wondering if Finland had a CL Party. I am not telling people who to vote for, or calling them names. I find it purposefully distracts from any meaningful conversation -- essentially it becomes an argument of personality than substance. I like to follow the spread of the ideas I covet. Inquiry should not be miscontrued as anything other than curiosity.
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On April 19 2011 01:43 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 01:37 skutz wrote:On April 19 2011 00:53 Wegandi wrote:On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices. People are scared, and that's never a good sign. On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917. Yeah, XIXth century has been so good... + Show Spoiler + Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda. Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.). PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland? You're an American who lives in the U.S.A? Please vote for your epic classical liberal 1832 pinoit Freedom Liberty Justice party over there, I'm sure it will work out really well. I rarely vote, but was just wondering if Finland had a CL Party. I am not telling people who to vote for, or calling them names. I find it purposefully distracts from any meaningful conversation -- essentially it becomes an argument of personality than substance. I like to follow the spread of the ideas I covet. Inquiry should not be miscontrued as anything other than curiosity.
Your words are weightless in this (and probably a lot more) context. You barged into a Finnish election thread and starting rambling about 'classical liberal 1832 politics' against the 'socialists'. True Finns are dumb as shit but they're not as dumb as an American Libertarian, aka petit-bourgeois
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Quite a funny and sad thread. But in the end just a typical internet politic discussion. Just some random numbers an opinions and nothing with any depth.
True Finns are just nationalism/racism and provide simple answers for difficult questions. Economy refugees are just the main "problem" for the west world to come. I mean, what would you do if you see the richness in the western countries and life somewhere in africa or eastern europe or latin america? You would try it. The main problem that needs to be solved is that noone has the urge to immigrant in another country because everywhere are equal chances for a good life. And because this can't be solved by 1 or 2 countries "democracy" and states are failing in the conditions of a globalized world.
just my 2 cents^^
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On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote:
It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up.
And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you?
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On April 19 2011 01:49 Kevan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote:
It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up. And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you?
They make a million billion promises that they can't fulfill, yes it's stupid to believe in obvious exeggration and lies.
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I'd say it's more of a learned opinion than a personal preference. Even the one guy who supports True Finns in this thread (Mayhemia) called them stupid. He also said "Nazi party, political disease, hate party, if it were so I would have voted for them," just as a headsup for what type of person defends the PS.
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On April 19 2011 01:53 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 01:49 Kevan wrote:On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote:
It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up. And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you? They make a million billion promises that they can't fulfill, yes it's stupid to believe in obvious exeggration and lies.
b-b-b-but it's their opinion OMG!!!! every opnion is special, plz give us 1832 classical liberals under the true finns
User was warned for this post
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All those "it's their opinion, let them be" people don't grasp the concept of opinions, because an opinion is worth nothing, if you can't back it up with intelligent arguments. The only argument for those right wing extremists, is "duh immigrants take my money", which is just a shortened sight of a chain of events. (It's the same with the bailouts for EU-countries like Greece. To give them money is stupid, but in a complete different way than "they're taking our money!!!!". But it's impossible to argue with those people anyway, because who votes for those kind of parties, is shortsighted or uninterested in real problem-solving.
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On April 19 2011 01:53 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 01:49 Kevan wrote:On April 19 2011 01:33 skutz wrote:
It's embarassing because True Finns are dumb as shit, just a heads up. And that's your own personal opinion but maybe 19% of the people that voted have the right to have their own opinions too or does that just sound completely crazy to you? They make a million billion promises that they can't fulfill, yes it's stupid to believe in obvious exeggration and lies.
I'm not trying to defend them or anything but what I'm trying to say is that if you want to vote for something stupid then go ahead, you have the right to do that without being questioned.
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I refused to vote for any of those dumbasses
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Didn't actually vote even though I was working at one of the location where the election took place.
Before the elections I was mostly amused by the "True Finns" phenomenon, never really expected them to break into top 3. I mostly consider this as people protesting, similar to voting Aku Ankka (Donald Duck) and Tony Halme but in much bigger scale.
I would imagine that Kokoomus (Coalition?) will keep "True Finns" in a fairly tight leash and "True Finns" won't be able to come through with most of the promises they made, and it's probably better that way.
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On April 18 2011 01:12 phanto wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 09:39 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
True Finns with 14,9% poll (4,0% last election, currently 5 seats) is only party that opposes EU. Currently their partly leader Timo Soini is in EU though. Gained a lot of new votes past year. Party had 6,4% poll year ago and now is closing gap to major parties. Slightly hates immigration and uses EU problems to boost their party voting share. That's what I would have voted on if I was finnish.
Yeah Nazism has worked out great so far in history!.. oh wait..
It's quite sad to see that almost every country in Europe has a pretty large party based on racism and conservatism. Lucklily the inbred Swedish equivilant is kept faily small in comparison, but still. The future looks quite dark indeed.
By the way, how can you slightly hate something? 
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On April 19 2011 02:13 Vaelone wrote:
I mostly consider this as people protesting, similar to voting Aku Ankka (Donald Duck) and Tony Halme but in much bigger scale.
I agree, it's a protest from the anxious, angry, and less 'informed' parts of society about not having their populist and throwaway personal ~special opinions~ about nasty immigrants. the scary EU, being Tough On Crime etc being discussed by politicians
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Eh just stop throwing racism around because that's not what they are. How is it racist to not want people to just come feed off the system? They have nothing against normal immigration where people come to work etc, they support it. Still didn't vote for them cos of some other stuff.
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On April 19 2011 00:53 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 23:42 Biff The Understudy wrote:This far-right tsunami in Europe is a very bad sign for both European Union and the future of ll of its country individually. We have Front National in France, with this Marine Le Pen bitch, who does more tha 20% voices. People are scared, and that's never a good sign. On April 18 2011 23:02 Wegandi wrote:
Funny that socialists should cry about the consequences of policies on the future....as a libertarian it is amusing. If only you would realize the consequences of subsidizing unemployment and poverty. In any case, this whole ordeal is interesting, but nonetheless easily seen. When you give property and goods away to new people whom share no cultural identity, of course those who are getting their money taken from are going to look to protect it. While I am open borders when it comes to the State, I am about as closed border propertarian as you will get, and even I can plainly see that an open border welfare state will always collapse itself -- which is what we are seeing all around the world. Social Democracy is imploding. Now, let's hope Europe returns to 1830 (Classical Liberal) and not 1917. Yeah, XIXth century has been so good... + Show Spoiler + Yeah, I guess we would all be better off without the Industrial Revolution. I'd much rather work on a farm all my life, toiling away, without much capital. Liberty? Damn that bourgeois idea. Freedom? Who needs that. Inalieable rights? Bourgeois propaganda. Let's go with the 20th Century and its proleteriat societies (Khmer Rhouge, USSR, East Germany, North Korea, Maoist China, most of Latin America for the better part of the Century, etc.). PS: Is there a Classicaly Liberal party in Finland?
Are you really seriously opposing "classical liberal" à-la Malthus and other conservative reading of Smith and the Red Khmer as the only alternative?
Is it incredibly bad faith or complete ignorance?
The reason capitalism has worked quite well and insured freedom and some equality for a century is precisely because there have been movements to oppose "classical liberals": socialists, social democrats etc...
Society ion 1830 was more or less disguised slavery for 70% people.
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Is it incredibly bad faith or complete ignorance?
ignorance from his part i imagine, bad faith from the american media for emotionally charging words like 'socialist' 'capitalist' etc in their news
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A lot of people are reading too much into the results of the election.
Unless the True Finns find common ground with at least the National Coalition Party or the Social Democrats, they will not be included in forming the government. In the event that they do, serious concessions have to be made to reach a consensus on important decisions. Considering how different the three parties that are currently likely to form government are, any propositions or laws that are passed will not heavily favor the policies of any single one of the three biggest parties.
Finnish foreign and immigration policies are unlikely to see radical change. At most, I expect limits to well-fare and other social services for immigrants based on how long they've been unemployed in relation to how long they've been under well-fare. A change that wouldn't be completely uncalled for from a financial perspective, even if it included Finns and not just immigrants as well.
Most non-Nordics have a lack of perspective when it comes to Finnish politics. All of our parties are very similar when compared to French (whom we modeled our form of Parliament after) or even American political parties, which seem like they are worlds apart and harbor great animosity toward each other. All major Finnish parties agree on gradual taxation, the idea of a national Army with compulsory military or civil service for all Finnish males, free public education up to university-level, free healthcare and the likes. Negotiations frequently yield results, even between government parties and the opposition. Finland has a longstanding reputation of being a neutral/pseudo-neutral party or the mediator in conflicts, and that image is represented among all Finnish political parties. Politically, Finland is very unified.
I don't mean to imply that there are no differing views or policies, far from it. I'm simply stating that the parties generally compromise with each other, especially in matters of foreign affairs. Even though the True Finns are against the EU, Finland will remain in the union and will contribute to the situation in Portugal. The thing in question is by how much, and that is what the True Finns will attempt to influence.
I personally voted for an individual whose views I liked with no regard to which party was in question. I realize that this is a naive way to vote and that individualism has no place in politics, but it was either that or not vote at all (voting for the sleeper-party, as it's called) since I didn't really identify with any party. Regardless, my candidate didn't make it into parliament but there's always next election. 
In the end, it will all be business as usual.
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On April 19 2011 03:12 skutz wrote:ignorance from his part i imagine, bad faith from the american media for emotionally charging words like 'socialist' 'capitalist' etc in their news
I guess so.
Saying we should go back yo 1830's doctrines is more or less like saying we should go back to XVIth century and restablish serfdom.
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On April 19 2011 03:28 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2011 03:12 skutz wrote:
Is it incredibly bad faith or complete ignorance?
ignorance from his part i imagine, bad faith from the american media for emotionally charging words like 'socialist' 'capitalist' etc in their news I guess so. Saying we should go back yo 1830's doctrines is more or less like saying we should go back to XVIth century and restablish serfdom.
Technically, it is really 13th Century, since the Magna Carta was a giant leap forward for human liberty. I suppose that is too old, and the Magna Carta is like serfdom, so we should just do away with that too. I think it is foolish to write off everything that once was as inferior, or worse.
There was no income tax. No sales tax. Most of the states had outlawed socialist endeavors like internal improvements (State-roads, canals, etc.). There was no welfare so you were not getting stolen from. Perhaps you should read a bit of De Tocqueville. To call having an absence of taxation (for the most part) as serfdom is beyond Orwellian. Most of the world had outlawed slavery by 1830.
Yes, I miss the lack of Republicanism. I guess I am a backward neanderthal to pine for a time when Government was nearly non-existent & you were free to pursue your dreams without interference. When society for the most part believed in voluntary relationships. When there was no Central Bank stealing your wealth and property and giving it to an aristocratic privileged class.
I guess you guys do not know that my views in the MSM are nearly non-existent. The media hates those who hold my political views.
Ironically, RussiaToday is probably the most libertarian channel (I guess they are trying to foment revolution like the CIA /shrug).
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EPT
