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Headphone enthusiast thread! - Page 60

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Eurekastreet
Profile Joined November 2010
1308 Posts
March 29 2011 07:30 GMT
#1181
For us knobs out there : what's a Meier Audio StageDAC and what does it do exactly ?
"2 cannons, it's not one cannons" - White-Ra
Hokay
Profile Joined May 2007
United States738 Posts
March 29 2011 07:35 GMT
#1182
On March 29 2011 16:04 Gatsbi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2011 15:20 Hokay wrote:
Does anyone know if the Xonar ST is worth the upgrade form a Xonar DX? The headphones I use is Ultrasone-580. I want the ST amp but I'm not sure if my headphones will benefit much (32ohms I believe).


Well how is the volume for you? I know when I had my DT880's (32 ohm) running straight out of my PC (no soundcard) it wasn't nearly loud enough, even at 100% PC volume I was having a hard time hearing stuff in movies even. When I got my Essence ST it was a godsend, I had more volume than I knew what to do with, plus a pretty great (for the price) DAC. It was pretty night and day for me, but that was coming straight from my integrated computer sound (Realtek AC97) to the Essence ST.

I haven't heard the DX so I can't say for sure, but I have to say the Essence ST is DEFINITELY worth the price and it will serve as a decent DAC when you decide (or if you decide) to upgrade to an external amp. Even when you decide to upgrade to an external DAC too, the Essence ST has one of the cleanest (if not the cleanest) Optical Out's of any sound card, so it works great as a transport as well.


My headphones are loud with my DX soundcard. I don't put it any higher than 1/4 because my ears will fatigue faster. I just want the bass to come out since they are suppose to be amazing with a good amp and EQ
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
March 29 2011 08:01 GMT
#1183
On March 29 2011 16:30 Eurekastreet wrote:
For us knobs out there : what's a Meier Audio StageDAC and what does it do exactly ?


It's a device that costs several hundred dollars, which converts sound data sent in digital format to an analog voltage signal (hence digital-to-analog converter, or DAC). Functionally, you can think of it as an external sound card dedicated solely to high-fidelity output. How it precisely does this digital-to-analog conversion slightly differently and hopefully better than other devices has a lot to do with the details of the implementation. It also has a crossfeed feature--essentially, mixing left and right channel signals in a certain way.

By design, the output circuitry is not designed to power headphones directly. Therefore, users usually connect the output of the device to a dedicated amplifier that is intended to drive the headphone.

Most sound cards have a much simpler/cheaper headphone amplifier in addition to the DAC (and ADC and related parts for the inputs like for microphones). The quality of the integrated amplifier in different sound cards and even onboard audio chips varies widely. The Asus Essence ST/STX mentioned earlier has a top headphone amplifier circuit among PC sound cards.
Eurekastreet
Profile Joined November 2010
1308 Posts
March 29 2011 08:11 GMT
#1184
On March 29 2011 17:01 Myrmidon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2011 16:30 Eurekastreet wrote:
For us knobs out there : what's a Meier Audio StageDAC and what does it do exactly ?


It's a device that costs several hundred dollars, which converts sound data sent in digital format to an analog voltage signal (hence digital-to-analog converter, or DAC). Functionally, you can think of it as an external sound card dedicated solely to high-fidelity output. How it precisely does this digital-to-analog conversion slightly differently and hopefully better than other devices has a lot to do with the details of the implementation. It also has a crossfeed feature--essentially, mixing left and right channel signals in a certain way.

By design, the output circuitry is not designed to power headphones directly. Therefore, users usually connect the output of the device to a dedicated amplifier that is intended to drive the headphone.

Most sound cards have a much simpler/cheaper headphone amplifier in addition to the DAC (and ADC and related parts for the inputs like for microphones). The quality of the integrated amplifier in different sound cards and even onboard audio chips varies widely. The Asus Essence ST/STX mentioned earlier has a top headphone amplifier circuit among PC sound cards.


Thanks for the explanation. Just for my education : can you plug those into a pc ? From what I seem to understand, the answer would be no....then it would be reserved to high-fidelity output...the question is, why would you need this if you already have a "regular" dedicated amp with a headphone output ? Does this give way better output for the phones ? Or is this just for another kind of setup, separate from your regular hi-fi amp ?
"2 cannons, it's not one cannons" - White-Ra
HuggyBear
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia377 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-29 10:46:32
March 29 2011 10:45 GMT
#1185
Yes you could plug it to a pc with either USB or Optical (Coax or Toslink)

The amp only drives headphones, some amps don't have a dedicated DAC. (Similar to how some DACs are only dedicated DACs with no amp)
The audio chain consists of DAC > Amp > Speaker/Headphones. Standalone DACs were made so perfectionists could focus on the individual components of the audio chain, similar to how you tweak individual parts of a car.

When it comes to PC audio, nothing beats the bang/buck you get from just getting a soundcard
"Sleeping with SeLeCT is Standard. Once you've slept with Day9 everything else is just ..." - CatZ
Fyodor
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada971 Posts
March 29 2011 15:41 GMT
#1186
On March 29 2011 19:45 HuggyBear wrote:

When it comes to PC audio, nothing beats the bang/buck you get from just getting a soundcard

Not true though. The integrated chips are the unmitigated kings of bang for the buck. They cost nothing because you already have them and they give you positively pleasant sound. As soon as you spend any money at all, you commit yourself to the impossible task of beating realtek. Can you get better sound with one dollar? No, you only have a jellybean chip with nothing attached to it. With 20 dollars? You have a bunch of jellybean chips and parts that can form a sound card and you can sell it with a certain profit. Does it sound better than integrated? probably not noticeably. With one hundred dollars you can look at something that can beat realtek if you pay real attention. Is it infinitely better? No. That's why motherboards only have realtek. They can't be beat.

Spending money on headphone rigs cannot be rationally explained in terms of bang for the buck IMO. It's an obsessive hobby that's highly subjective.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
JSH
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-29 16:26:20
March 29 2011 16:25 GMT
#1187
On March 30 2011 00:41 Fyodor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2011 19:45 HuggyBear wrote:

When it comes to PC audio, nothing beats the bang/buck you get from just getting a soundcard

Not true though. The integrated chips are the unmitigated kings of bang for the buck. They cost nothing because you already have them and they give you positively pleasant sound. As soon as you spend any money at all, you commit yourself to the impossible task of beating realtek. Can you get better sound with one dollar? No, you only have a jellybean chip with nothing attached to it. With 20 dollars? You have a bunch of jellybean chips and parts that can form a sound card and you can sell it with a certain profit. Does it sound better than integrated? probably not noticeably. With one hundred dollars you can look at something that can beat realtek if you pay real attention. Is it infinitely better? No. That's why motherboards only have realtek. They can't be beat.

Spending money on headphone rigs cannot be rationally explained in terms of bang for the buck IMO. It's an obsessive hobby that's highly subjective.


haha yeah
best "bang for the buck" would be to buy a better pair of headphones :>
"It's called a miracle because it doesn't happen" - Just like my chances of reaching C- on ICCUP
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-29 17:50:30
March 29 2011 17:50 GMT
#1188
Well, past a certain point of DAC and amp quality, the differences between different devices is often pretty subtle and sometimes impossible to distinguish by ear. Granted, this is less so when dealing with tube amps, intentional harmonic distortion for euphonics, crossfeed filters, and other additives). But the differences are at times smaller than expectation bias.

There's all sorts of anecdotes about headphone/speaker rigs put behind a screen, some for funsies but less with any kind of scientific rigor. A guy toggles a switch between A and B and asks people to listen and tell which is better--he gets lots of responses for A and lots for B. It turns out that the switch wasn't changing anything. Or, a person is told his awesome rig was replaced with a low-end crappy system. He then listens to the rig and describes the sound as terrible, but it turns out he was listening to his own awesome rig the whole time.

Even in an actual blind test, I frequently identify (imaginary) differences between audio tracks that are actually identical.

Best bang-for-buck is ignorance, not realizing that there may be better or different rigs out there.
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
March 29 2011 20:20 GMT
#1189
On March 30 2011 02:50 Myrmidon wrote:
Well, past a certain point of DAC and amp quality, the differences between different devices is often pretty subtle and sometimes impossible to distinguish by ear. Granted, this is less so when dealing with tube amps, intentional harmonic distortion for euphonics, crossfeed filters, and other additives). But the differences are at times smaller than expectation bias.

There's all sorts of anecdotes about headphone/speaker rigs put behind a screen, some for funsies but less with any kind of scientific rigor. A guy toggles a switch between A and B and asks people to listen and tell which is better--he gets lots of responses for A and lots for B. It turns out that the switch wasn't changing anything. Or, a person is told his awesome rig was replaced with a low-end crappy system. He then listens to the rig and describes the sound as terrible, but it turns out he was listening to his own awesome rig the whole time.

Even in an actual blind test, I frequently identify (imaginary) differences between audio tracks that are actually identical.

Best bang-for-buck is ignorance, not realizing that there may be better or different rigs out there.

Agreed. Huge huge diminishing returns on audio equipment. I'm actually very glad I can't tell the difference between a decent entry-level pair of headphones or IEMs and a mid-to-high level pair.
Chewits
Profile Joined September 2006
Northern Ireland1200 Posts
March 29 2011 20:38 GMT
#1190
60 pages in this thread, so forgive me if this has been posted already.

Dave Rat, did a very big headphone research quest. He made blog about it. Basically he tests shit load of headphones thoroughly to find out which is the best out there. Dave Rat, owns one of the most successful PA companies in america (Rat Sounds), and is regarded as one of the best FOH engineers around, (RHCP, Blink 182, RATM) He invented the Double Hung PA in 2005, which was adapted for the U2 360 tour by Clare Brothers. This guy knows his shit.

Two pages from his blog;

First - http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/categories/27-The-Mighty-Headphone-Quest/P2.html (scroll to bottom for first article)
Second - http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/categories/27-The-Mighty-Headphone-Quest/P1.html


Enjoy
Whats the altitude?
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
March 29 2011 22:18 GMT
#1191
On March 30 2011 05:20 ieatkids5 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2011 02:50 Myrmidon wrote:
Well, past a certain point of DAC and amp quality, the differences between different devices is often pretty subtle and sometimes impossible to distinguish by ear. Granted, this is less so when dealing with tube amps, intentional harmonic distortion for euphonics, crossfeed filters, and other additives). But the differences are at times smaller than expectation bias.

There's all sorts of anecdotes about headphone/speaker rigs put behind a screen, some for funsies but less with any kind of scientific rigor. A guy toggles a switch between A and B and asks people to listen and tell which is better--he gets lots of responses for A and lots for B. It turns out that the switch wasn't changing anything. Or, a person is told his awesome rig was replaced with a low-end crappy system. He then listens to the rig and describes the sound as terrible, but it turns out he was listening to his own awesome rig the whole time.

Even in an actual blind test, I frequently identify (imaginary) differences between audio tracks that are actually identical.

Best bang-for-buck is ignorance, not realizing that there may be better or different rigs out there.

Agreed. Huge huge diminishing returns on audio equipment. I'm actually very glad I can't tell the difference between a decent entry-level pair of headphones or IEMs and a mid-to-high level pair.


Well, the difference between different headphones or IEMs, even high-end ones compared to other high-end ones, is pretty large in comparison. Take a look at the difference in results for a few rudimentary attributes like the frequency response for different headphones, here or here. Of course, taking a listen would be helpful too, but I don't think everybody has access to all these sets.

Here is a simple comparison of a source before and after an op-amp swap. Here are some other sources and amps too--this link is more interesting and has more stuff so check it out. (Of course, RMAA has no transient tests, etc., and is limited in scope.)


On March 30 2011 05:38 Chewits wrote:
60 pages in this thread, so forgive me if this has been posted already.


It has been, but it's interesting regardless. You have to keep in mind that he's just looking for a closed monitoring headphone for use at live concert levels. As far as I could tell from a skim through a couple months ago, he's pretty much just looking at the frequency response and harmonic distortion at high SPL for pure sinusoidal test inputs at low frequencies. It's nice to have low distortions in the waveform at low frequencies at high SPL, but that's a pretty narrow criterion not really indicative of anything other than one aspect of bass performance at high volumes.
JSH
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4109 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-30 22:04:27
March 29 2011 22:38 GMT
#1192
Ugh... so just bought a pair of JVC Marshmallows for uh well no real reason
I wanted to try the Kramer Mod

But why oh why do these sound so bad T_T
Even worse then my $20 bass-bloated IEM from RadioShack

Granted they are really cheap but these were the first pair of IEMs that I had so :<
Good isolation though

Maybe they will get better with more burning in...

edit: ah with some burning in it sounds much much better :D
mids are actually listenable now and the bass got a bit toned down :>

Didn't put in any foam/filter in the tube after removing the paper filter because I like my highs sharp
Like my 7506 :D
"It's called a miracle because it doesn't happen" - Just like my chances of reaching C- on ICCUP
Unreg
Profile Joined August 2010
181 Posts
March 30 2011 22:38 GMT
#1193
Any1 has some in-ear recomendations? I have 7h at home but wanted something for my laptop and for office so I don't have to carry the 7h everyday -D
less is more
Archontas
Profile Joined September 2010
United States319 Posts
March 30 2011 22:55 GMT
#1194
On March 30 2011 05:38 Chewits wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
60 pages in this thread, so forgive me if this has been posted already.

Dave Rat, did a very big headphone research quest. He made blog about it. Basically he tests shit load of headphones thoroughly to find out which is the best out there. Dave Rat, owns one of the most successful PA companies in america (Rat Sounds), and is regarded as one of the best FOH engineers around, (RHCP, Blink 182, RATM) He invented the Double Hung PA in 2005, which was adapted for the U2 360 tour by Clare Brothers. This guy knows his shit.

Two pages from his blog;

First - http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/categories/27-The-Mighty-Headphone-Quest/P2.html (scroll to bottom for first article)
Second - http://www.ratsound.com/cblog/categories/27-The-Mighty-Headphone-Quest/P1.html


Enjoy



ty for that, nice find!
If you ban me, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.
Gatsbi
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1134 Posts
March 30 2011 23:02 GMT
#1195
On March 31 2011 07:38 Unreg wrote:
Any1 has some in-ear recomendations? I have 7h at home but wanted something for my laptop and for office so I don't have to carry the 7h everyday -D


Price range?
"IF WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW IS MORE THAN WHAT YOU HAVE KNOWN. THEN YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ANYTHINIG YET." - Rev Kojo Smith
ELA
Profile Joined April 2010
Denmark4608 Posts
March 30 2011 23:05 GMT
#1196
This probably isn't worth mentioning in a crowd with such fine taste in headsets, but my girlfriend bought these for me:

Steelseries Sibera v2 Blue
[image loading]

Prolly not special, but they're by far the best headset I have ever had <3
The first link of chain forged, the first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.
hitman133
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1425 Posts
March 30 2011 23:34 GMT
#1197
Just bought AKG 702 with my combo E7 + E9. So far I can't complain about anything, except it's kinda heavy or hot sometimes. Great soundstage, bass, mid, treble, good for vocal.
KRaver
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1264 Posts
April 01 2011 02:53 GMT
#1198
HI TL,

Can somebody help recommend me some portable/casual headphones ?

I currently own a Zumreed Sfit, Audio technical ATH SJ3 and a Mix-style star

Looking for another to add to my collection and the max i'm willing to spend is $150

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
Duo Maxwell: If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.
JSH
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States4109 Posts
April 01 2011 03:41 GMT
#1199
On April 01 2011 11:53 KRaver wrote:
HI TL,

Can somebody help recommend me some portable/casual headphones ?

I currently own a Zumreed Sfit, Audio technical ATH SJ3 and a Mix-style star

Looking for another to add to my collection and the max i'm willing to spend is $150

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Any other specific details on the headphones other than that you want it to be portable?

The widely popular and loved ATH-M50 seems like a candidate as it folds up pretty nicely and costs around $120?
"It's called a miracle because it doesn't happen" - Just like my chances of reaching C- on ICCUP
KRaver
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1264 Posts
April 01 2011 03:52 GMT
#1200
On April 01 2011 12:41 JSH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 01 2011 11:53 KRaver wrote:
HI TL,

Can somebody help recommend me some portable/casual headphones ?

I currently own a Zumreed Sfit, Audio technical ATH SJ3 and a Mix-style star

Looking for another to add to my collection and the max i'm willing to spend is $150

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Any other specific details on the headphones other than that you want it to be portable?

The widely popular and loved ATH-M50 seems like a candidate as it folds up pretty nicely and costs around $120?


No just portable is fine and sound quality i don't care cause the my mp3 aren't high quality in the first place so it doesn't matter.

I'm looking the ATH-M50 would you happen to know where i can buy it and will ship to canada besides ebay/amazon
Duo Maxwell: If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.
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