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On July 01 2010 21:58 javiskefka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 11:50 StorkHwaiting wrote:Cool post, Atom! Thanks for this. I don't think language isolate in the linguistic sense means that someone who speaks a different language won't understand you though. I speak Mandarin but I can't understand a damn thing when a Fukianese person is speaking their dialect, but they share the same language ancestry... I think. I could be wrong  Pretty much the only reason to call Mandarin, Fukianese, etc dialects of the Chinese language instead of related languages of the same family is for political reasons. Because mainland China's been a single political entity for so long and whichever ethnic group that has held the political power has made stamping out minority culture such a priority over the years, it's unpopular to evaluate those languages by the same criteria that lead linguists to classify French and Spanish as distinct language of the Romance family, for example. You should follow your common sense when you feel that something seems sketchy when a supposedly related language to the one you speak is completely unintelligible to you.
Good point on dialect vs related languages. But they do share language ancestry still, no?
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On July 01 2010 17:55 Fantistic wrote:
How do I pronounce:
ㄱㄱ ?
ㄷㄷ ?
ㅂㅂ ?
ㅅㅅ ?
ㅈㅈ ?
Don't know how to pronounce these double consonants.
Lol it's pretty much saying them with a much.. Sharper sound?
Also, there's a way to type them. Hold shift while typing that letter.
ie.
ㄱ = ㄲ with shift.
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51615 Posts
i think the word you're looking for is inflection.
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I just found this website: www.livemocha.com
It's very very good. It does the same type of thing as rosetta stone (match picture with sound bite/phrase or vice versa) But the reason it's really good is you do your own writing or record yourself speaking, and native speakers comment on them for you to help you out. Plus it allows you to do live chats with native speakers in their language, etc.
Thought this was relatable because Arrian said speaking to natives is very important, and this is one easy way how.
And hearing non-english speak english is also pretty fun 
+ Show Spoiler +
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How possible is it to learn, mainly verbally, to make a good few phrases before going there? Historically, I've been terrible with languages. I'm going there on vacation and I want to be sure and greet people in Korean, say Excuse me, Thank You, please, and as much of that as I can learn.
Does it make any sense to sort of "skip" learning the written language to just try and memorize a bunch of phrases? I would really like to give the impression, being there, that I give a shit enough to have a good cache of phrases for basic communication.
Should I try to understand the written language to make it eaiser? I know it basically in structure (how there are up to 4 sounds in a "word" that is made from consonant/vowel/silent symbols)...
I have 6 months about about an hour or 2 a day at most. And 1 native speaker to talk to on vent. How should I go about learning basic social interaction?
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hmm, I want to start learning korean at some point too. I've studied japanese in the past and I've felt stuck with the kanji so I never really pursued it further. I wish I had now. T_T
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On June 30 2010 09:58 Arrian wrote:
SLA experts agree on three major factors in accurate, fast acquisition of a second language (in no particular order): motivation, interaction with native speakers, natural aptitude.
I know you didn't impose an order on these factors, but I'd argue that interaction with native speakers is the most important. It would be like learning any other skill set without any feedback - you can't correct it if you don't know you're doing it wrong.
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On July 14 2010 01:40 SiNiquity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2010 09:58 Arrian wrote:
SLA experts agree on three major factors in accurate, fast acquisition of a second language (in no particular order): motivation, interaction with native speakers, natural aptitude. I know you didn't impose an order on these factors, but I'd argue that interaction with native speakers is the most important. It would be like learning any other skill set without any feedback - you can't correct it if you don't know you're doing it wrong.
It is for me, but not for everyone. Missionaries are known to be extremely proficient in learning foreign languages without much interaction with native speakers. Frankly I think if you have a suitable attention span, and monastic study habits, self-study with a good textbook is the best way to achieve progress. Unfortunately, most commercial series on bookshelves today are dumbed-down versions of their predecessors, it takes some digging in used book stores to find the best material.
Furthermore, interaction with native speakers tends to emphasize oral expression and comprehension over other aspects of the language (reading, writing, proficiency in literature and rhetoric.) It's important to separate academic purposes from social ones.
It sounds like Korean is not so different from most Indo-European languages with conservative grammars. English has probably the most progressive grammar among them, so it's an outlier in terms of inflection. Also seems that the syntax of Korean is described to be something akin to Latin (flexible word order of which SOV is the most prominent convention.) Gives credit to the general theory that rigid syntax is a functional substitute for loss of inflection.
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As a korean, I find korean easy. lol
But yea, Korean is not an isolate. Mongolian, Japanese and what use to be Manchuria (northern china) are related languages. This can be seen historically when the Mongol Empire, under Ghengis Khan, conquered Northeast Asia, they gave Korea special status, unlike say the Han Chinese, because we were considered a sister nation. Likewise, when Japan annexed Korea and Manchuria before WWII it was very easy for Koreans to learn Japanese under the forced school system.
Standard Korean, without all the slang and cultural innuendo is very easy to learn. What makes it difficult is the honorific system where there's a whole set of words one can and cannot use depending on whom you are addressing. But as a foreigner, making mistakes in the honorific sense is actually cute and people will not get offended by it.
And BTW,
예 (ye) and 네 (ne) mean the same thing, but 예 is more honorific than 네. To confuse matters more there are a few more -- 응 (eung) or 엉 (ung) or even 앙 (ang) which all mean "yes". The latter is more conversational Korean used to address a close peer or inferior. The former, 예, is for superiors, 네 is more for less close peers (like work associates) or chumy superiors you can go have a drink with. Considering this is just one word "yes", you can imagine this gets difficult very quickly.
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For those who are living in a foreign country speaking a language foreign to you; is it painfully awkward most of the time? I can imagine it being annoying to have lack of communication on an everyday basis but I suppose that's part of the learning process. I wanted to learn Japanese myself (I really love the landscapes there and would love to paint them, I may consider moving there some day in the far far away future). I know that in America sometimes here in FL where I live, some Spanish speakers get dirty looks from some of the older folks (damn hillbillies).
I wonder if that happens often in foreign countries... just curious.
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On June 30 2010 09:58 Arrian wrote:
The bad
Presumably, the task you've chosen is Korean. The U.S government has classified Korean as a category 4 language, a language so different from English they estimate 2200 classroom hours to pass as a competent speaker.
Is there a site where you can check the category's for all the languages?
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On June 30 2010 10:09 Rekrul wrote:
Koreans definitely get impressed by any non-Korean with Korean speaking ability. But more so than actually just knowing words and grammar being a true good Korean speaker requires ALOT of social experience with Koreans. If you don't know the culture and how they think about stuff it doesn't matter how book-smart you are in the language, you will come across as a fool. Korean culture + cute language inuendos can allow you to say something that wouldn't be funny in english in Korean and have a whole room ROFL'ing and staring at you as if you're some angel sent from heaven (or demon from hell depending on what you said).
Yeah I think this is very true. There's a lot of times when someone asks me a question in Korean, and I can understand what they said, and come up with an answer that makes perfect sense in English. But when I translate it into Korean they're like... "wtf? how does that relate to what I said?" Or the other way around too, I ask them a question, and I can understand their response but it doesn't seem to answer my question at all. Just the way logic works when you're thinking in Korean is really different.
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On July 01 2010 18:53 Chaosvuistje wrote:
My basic goal is to understand the korean commentators. Thats all I could ever ask for. A long road ahead but I'll get there in a year or so.
lol I can pretty much guarantee you won't be able to get that far in just a year.
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man I can't even manage to write in korean on my computer. I#ve installed korean keyboard, asian language support, set the keyboard to korean in windows and all it does is continuing to write normal arabic letters omg.
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On July 01 2010 04:52 Delerium wrote:
I feel I have to also chime in in defense of Rosetta Stone.
1. It is very good as a piece of software.
2. It is MUCH better than learning language in a classroom (which people have been doing wrong for a very long time).
3. It's true that the absolute best way to learn a language is still total immersion, that is, to go live in a country that speaks the other language and immerse yourself. Barring this, I feel that Rosetta Stone comes in as a close second-best choice.
That said, Rosetta Stone is very expensive. Very expensive. If you want to use it to learn a language instead of total immersion, I recommend against paying for it. If someone else will pay for it for you instead, like an employer, university, or public program, then so much the better for your wallet. As the OP said, you must stick with it or you're not going to learn/retain anything. Learning a language in any manner has to be a habitual discipline like most other developmental activities.
My credentials: I've studied Spanish in a classroom as well as with Rosetta Stone, allowing me to compare, and I'm married to a language teacher who is fluent in Spanish.
I'm Currently studying Japanese and in 3 weeks go to study in Japan for a year.. (and be damned non multi-regional starcraft.. *Cough*) I self studied for a year through mostly immersion techniques and what beginning stuff i could find, as well as Kanji and kana learning tools. I also got a *ahem* special edition.. rosetta stone from a friend via his friend... limewire. Can't say I was overly impressed with it. It throws grammar patterns at you without any explanation and although the full Japanese only helps with vocab, throwing sentences at you early with no backup leads to loads of mistakes as you have no basis for when something is correct. I'm not saying it's useless but the general consenus amongst Japanese learners is that its only best used in conjunction with other learning tools and not as a primary means of study.
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On August 15 2010 23:01 pred470r wrote:
Is there a site where you can check the category's for all the languages?
Here you are.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers
Although they seemed to have included Korean into category 3 now. They did used to have it in a separate higher category.
Try not to pay too much attention to difficulties. If you're interested in Korean and not interested in Spanish, then Korean will be much easier for you to learn.
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Is there a really good learning tool for written korean?
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On August 16 2010 00:49 Kanin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2010 23:01 pred470r wrote:
Is there a site where you can check the category's for all the languages? Here you are. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_SpeakersAlthough they seemed to have included Korean into category 3 now. They did used to have it in a separate higher category. Try not to pay too much attention to difficulties. If you're interested in Korean and not interested in Spanish, then Korean will be much easier for you to learn.
I doubt anyone can be passionate enough for Korea to ever make Korean objectively easier to learn than Spanish, and if you think your passion for Korea is all-conquering, perhaps a few months of being integrated in a Korean course will change your mind. The fact is very few enthusiasms are sufficient to produce the kind of mental discipline and concentration necessary in learning a language. Actually, I would suspect that it's precisely the kind of fickle enthusiasm for a culture engendered by online gaming which makes a person particularly unsuitable for studying Korean, the one workaround being of course force-feeding yourself by going to the target country.
However I find very few things about being transplanted to Korea appealing. I think that life in Korea would be lonely and socially alienating, and most enthusiasms underestimate the difficulties of living among a people with an alien way of thinking.
I am led by these considerations to believe that of every ten people on this forum who will profess a passion for Korea and hence the language, not one will see it through to the end.
P.S. To anyone interested, a while ago I selected a random language to see how far I could progress with no underlying motivation and no encouragement. It turned out that I ended up requiring considerable encouragement and motivation, but the experience largely confirmed my experience with all other languages: the moment you begin learning a language is your "birth," and all learning after the first minute will earn ever-diminishing returns. Beyond a certain point, the returns on investment in time and effort will seem to only marginally improve your ability that motivation stagnates. It's the ability to transcend this point of stagnation and remain committed to your goal that I consider to be the most difficult challenge in learning a language.
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On August 16 2010 11:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2010 00:49 Kanin wrote:On August 15 2010 23:01 pred470r wrote:
Is there a site where you can check the category's for all the languages? Here you are. http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_SpeakersAlthough they seemed to have included Korean into category 3 now. They did used to have it in a separate higher category. Try not to pay too much attention to difficulties. If you're interested in Korean and not interested in Spanish, then Korean will be much easier for you to learn. I doubt anyone can be passionate enough for Korea to ever make Korean objectively easier to learn than Spanish, and if you think your passion for Korea is all-conquering, perhaps a few months of being integrated in a Korean course will change your mind. The fact is very few enthusiasms are sufficient to produce the kind of mental discipline and concentration necessary in learning a language. Actually, I would suspect that it's precisely the kind of fickle enthusiasm for a culture engendered by online gaming which makes a person particularly unsuitable for studying Korean, the one workaround being of course force-feeding yourself by going to the target country. However I find very few things about being transplanted to Korea appealing. I think that life in Korea would be lonely and socially alienating, and most enthusiasms underestimate the difficulties of living among a people with an alien way of thinking.
I remember you saying that you moved to Germany just because you wanted to live there. Did you already know the language before you went, or did you learn it there? And did you find it lonely before you got used to it?
Also I'm curious about what the random language you tried to learn was.
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EPT
