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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On January 14 2010 03:39 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 03:30 iloahz wrote:
The Chinese press is now filled with debates and articles on this and I just read a few really insightful ones but too bad they are too long for me to translate anything. Anyways one comment is that in 5 years China will have more Internet users than US Japan Germany UK and France combined. That's when global Internet landscape will be dramatically different from now, and Google is forfeiting this big and still growing market. Google China may be still losing money in the short term, but losing this market all together is strategically such a much more gigantic and stupider loss. Google always has the option of getting back in the market when China isn't trying to steal their intellectual property.
Not really, if Google pulls out by saying that it won't comply with China's evil firewall then it's going to generate some bad press for China. That's going to piss off China's politicians. If you want to do business in China, you're gonna need political help or you're not going to get started. Google created a PR disaster for China and I think that even Google doesn't have enough bribe money to get back into China's market again.
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Shareholder derivative action incoming. It would fail though.
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On January 14 2010 03:45 Gigaudas wrote:
pyrogenetix's post is pretty f*cking interesting. Not sure if I trust that pyrogenetix is an objective observer though.
I think it's pretty freaking interesting that non-Chinese are so clueless about the situation in China to the extent that they find truth interesting. But anyways pyrogenetic really speaks the truth.
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As news of Google's bombshell threat to abandon its China operations spread yesterday, some Chinese citizens began bringing flowers to Google's corporate headquarters at the Tsinghua Science Park in Beijing. According to a tweet from "jason5ng32," the action caught the attention of security forces, who promptly coined a new phrase: "illegal flower donation." You can't do much better than that, if you're looking for a metaphor that expresses the Chinese government's resolve to control freedom of expression -- in any medium.
Source (Salon) in an article about possible motives for Google's move.
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On January 14 2010 04:22 choboPEon wrote:Show nested quote +As news of Google's bombshell threat to abandon its China operations spread yesterday, some Chinese citizens began bringing flowers to Google's corporate headquarters at the Tsinghua Science Park in Beijing. According to a tweet from "jason5ng32," the action caught the attention of security forces, who promptly coined a new phrase: "illegal flower donation." You can't do much better than that, if you're looking for a metaphor that expresses the Chinese government's resolve to control freedom of expression -- in any medium. http://i.imgur.com/5xJmy.jpgSource (Salon) in an article about possible motives for Google's move.
LOOOOOOOOL Aww so cute.
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I really REALLY doubt that if Google ever pulls out of China, they will be allowed back in the future. They've made the government lose too much face for that to ever happen short of a huge groveling apology stating they were wrong.
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I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
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On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote:
I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
i just love average joe's romanticizing of google like it's a person, that goes for these flower leavers too
it's just stupid and so out of depth with the corporate reality. this is just PR tact like some have mentioned already
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote:
I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
Rather, I think the Chinese government is going to use Google as a example so that no other corporation will deal with the Chinese government in this manner again.
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On January 14 2010 04:10 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 03:39 motbob wrote:On January 14 2010 03:30 iloahz wrote:
The Chinese press is now filled with debates and articles on this and I just read a few really insightful ones but too bad they are too long for me to translate anything. Anyways one comment is that in 5 years China will have more Internet users than US Japan Germany UK and France combined. That's when global Internet landscape will be dramatically different from now, and Google is forfeiting this big and still growing market. Google China may be still losing money in the short term, but losing this market all together is strategically such a much more gigantic and stupider loss. Google always has the option of getting back in the market when China isn't trying to steal their intellectual property. Not really, if Google pulls out by saying that it won't comply with China's evil firewall then it's going to generate some bad press for China. That's going to piss off China's politicians. If you want to do business in China, you're gonna need political help or you're not going to get started. Google created a PR disaster for China and I think that even Google doesn't have enough bribe money to get back into China's market again.
That's the current political climate, and it is a climate that google has decided it is not worth it to continue in. Should google want to go back itself (Read, have a good chance with the Chinese population having significantly more options in e-commerce as well as higher standards of living on top of having less government interference), it isn't about to try to go back with everything else like this. Like people said, this isn't a decision made purely based on morals, but that also means google fully recognizes what it could be losing when it made huge PR deal out of this.
On January 14 2010 09:42 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote:
I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
Rather, I think the Chinese government is going to use Google as a example so that no other corporation will deal with the Chinese government in this manner again.
I think not, even if it is China, trying to play hardball like that is foolish. Pyrogenix's post starts to touch up on how tough it is for foreign companies to operate in China when he addressed how the culture and people work over there. To add more political pressures onto that in this fashion doesn't serve them any real purpose, most companies aren't google, they won't try to pull stunts like this in the first place.
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On January 14 2010 02:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote:
If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc. This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
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I like how some people here are being objective *sarcasm*
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On January 14 2010 09:50 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 02:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote:
If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc. This. I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
that's so completely naive
china is a country so large in population and cultural diversity that it really is incomprehensible to most outside observers.
to bring order to such an eclectic mix is political tightrope on an order unimaginable to the best US politicians. does the central government control everything? no, they don't.
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I apologize for my post turning this thread into a shit storm. I was merely venting about the ceaseless stream of articles I seem to read where China is involved in some ridiculous civil rights violation and how quite frankly I'm tired of hearing about it. That's not to say it's not important, but it's grows on you after a while that these issues aren't isolated incidents, like they usually are in most western countries.
They are a steady and deliberate stream of violations with one common purpose: to subdue the public and prevent freedom of speech.
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yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
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On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote:
yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias.
Why ? Asian prejudice ?
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Canada11479 Posts
On January 14 2010 10:10 .risingdragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 09:50 Durak wrote:On January 14 2010 02:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote:
If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc. This. I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas. that's so completely naive china is a country so large in population and cultural diversity that it really is incomprehensible to most outside observers. to bring order to such an eclectic mix is political tightrope on an order unimaginable to the best US politicians. does the central government control everything? no, they don't.
I think the point was that the pyrogenetix scenario was a gigantic assumption so Durak provided a counter scenario that was also based on assumption. Neither are good arguments for or against freedom of information because they are hypothetical situations. However, I can easily see how rapid change could lead to revolution. But withholding power "for their own good" is a common justification that allows those in power to remain in power.
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On January 14 2010 10:36 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 10:10 .risingdragoon wrote:On January 14 2010 09:50 Durak wrote:On January 14 2010 02:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote:
If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc. This. I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas. that's so completely naive china is a country so large in population and cultural diversity that it really is incomprehensible to most outside observers. to bring order to such an eclectic mix is political tightrope on an order unimaginable to the best US politicians. does the central government control everything? no, they don't. I think the point was that the pyrogenetix scenario was a gigantic assumption so Durak provided a counter scenario that was also based on assumption. Neither are good arguments for or against freedom of information because they are hypothetical situations. However, I can easily see how rapid change could lead to revolution. But withholding power "for their own good" is a common justification that allows those in power to remain in power.
pyrogenetix's scenario is not an assumption, it's the hard reality. the disparage of wealth in China is as vast as its population, in fact almost every single gamut in China runs much wider than anywhere else I've been. you really gotta readjust your whole logic to understand it.
China is the 2nd largest consumer of luxury brands like rolls royce and louis vutton in the entire world, and at the same time a lot of people still live in abject poverty. how is that possible? that's cus, like I said, the gamut runs wide. its upper crest alone is large enough to take it to the top tier. that's why political decision can have much bigger effects than those in the US.
these naive flower people who want more political freedom don't have to contend with the consequences. China needs to take its time in reducing its restrictions while raising the avg living conditions to a degree where the avg person would understand why unrestricted freedom is bad news if it comes too fast.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5xJmy.jpg)
The best of luck 
