1/12/2010 03:00:00 PM Like many other well-known organizations, we face cyber attacks of varying degrees on a regular basis. In mid-December, we detected a highly sophisticated and targeted attack on our corporate infrastructure originating from China that resulted in the theft of intellectual property from Google. However, it soon became clear that what at first appeared to be solely a security incident--albeit a significant one--was something quite different.
First, this attack was not just on Google. As part of our investigation we have discovered that at least twenty other large companies from a wide range of businesses--including the Internet, finance, technology, media and chemical sectors--have been similarly targeted. We are currently in the process of notifying those companies, and we are also working with the relevant U.S. authorities.
Second, we have evidence to suggest that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of Chinese human rights activists. Based on our investigation to date we believe their attack did not achieve that objective. Only two Gmail accounts appear to have been accessed, and that activity was limited to account information (such as the date the account was created) and subject line, rather than the content of emails themselves.
Third, as part of this investigation but independent of the attack on Google, we have discovered that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties. These accounts have not been accessed through any security breach at Google, but most likely via phishing scams or malware placed on the users' computers.
We have already used information gained from this attack to make infrastructure and architectural improvements that enhance security for Google and for our users. In terms of individual users, we would advise people to deploy reputable anti-virus and anti-spyware programs on their computers, to install patches for their operating systems and to update their web browsers. Always be cautious when clicking on links appearing in instant messages and emails, or when asked to share personal information like passwords online. You can read more here about our cyber-security recommendations. People wanting to learn more about these kinds of attacks can read this U.S. government report (PDF), Nart Villeneuve's blog and this presentation on the GhostNet spying incident.
We have taken the unusual step of sharing information about these attacks with a broad audience not just because of the security and human rights implications of what we have unearthed, but also because this information goes to the heart of a much bigger global debate about freedom of speech. In the last two decades, China's economic reform programs and its citizens' entrepreneurial flair have lifted hundreds of millions of Chinese people out of poverty. Indeed, this great nation is at the heart of much economic progress and development in the world today.
We launched Google.cn in January 2006 in the belief that the benefits of increased access to information for people in China and a more open Internet outweighed our discomfort in agreeing to censor some results. At the time we made clear that "we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China."
These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn, and so over the next few weeks we will be discussing with the Chinese government the basis on which we could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.
The decision to review our business operations in China has been incredibly hard, and we know that it will have potentially far-reaching consequences. We want to make clear that this move was driven by our executives in the United States, without the knowledge or involvement of our employees in China who have worked incredibly hard to make Google.cn the success it is today. We are committed to working responsibly to resolve the very difficult issues raised.
Summary: - Google cyber-attacked in mid-December and has intellectual property stolen - Further investigation shows at least 20 major companies across different sectors tracked also targeted - Main goal appears to be trying to access Gmail accounts of Chinese Human rights activists - Google.cn will no longer filter search results - Google may be shutting down google.cn and pulling out of China.
I'm surprised Google publicly shared this information but they appear quite ticked off. It should be interesting to see what developments transpire because of this and the effects on global freedom of speech.
Please try to keep your comments towards this issue civil and let's not have this degenerate into an anti-China/flame war thread.
If you want to operate in China you have to follow China's rules. China doesn't need Google, but Google might want revenues from China's 1.3 billion population. I don't see Google getting any concessions because it doesn't have any leverage.
Google is a public company. They were happy to censor their results and put up with the Chinese government when they thought they could make money there. Most likely this means they aren't making enough money in China to justify staying there and have been looking for a way to pull out but get a public relations win out of it. Though I would imagine fending off the Chinese government's hackers would raise your operating costs quite a bit.
On January 13 2010 09:18 T.O.P. wrote: If you want to operate in China you have to follow China's rules. China doesn't need Google, but Google might want revenues from China's 1.3 billion population. I don't see Google getting any concessions because it doesn't have any leverage.
Google has leverage to influence other people/corporations/groups to follow suit.
Google is the most well known brand in the entire world, if they pull out people will notice.
On January 13 2010 09:18 T.O.P. wrote: If you want to operate in China you have to follow China's rules. China doesn't need Google, but Google might want revenues from China's 1.3 billion population. I don't see Google getting any concessions because it doesn't have any leverage.
I don't believe that Google expects this to be a profitable decision. Which baffles me, can Google - a cooperation controlled by the rules of capitalism - do something good for goodness sake? I doubt it but I don't see how this can be profitable for them so... Yey! Go Google!
EDIT: Yea, mucker a few posts above me made me see things clearly. I agree with his post.
On January 13 2010 09:19 mucker wrote: Google is a public company. They were happy to censor their results and put up with the Chinese government when they thought they could make money there. Most likely this means they aren't making enough money in China to justify staying there and have been looking for a way to pull out but get a public relations win out of it. Though I would imagine fending off the Chinese government's hackers would raise your operating costs quite a bit.
On January 13 2010 09:39 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don't know who I dislike the most: Google or the Chinese governement. They are equally evil in my eyes.
On January 13 2010 09:39 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don't know who I dislike the most: Google or the Chinese governement. They are equally evil in my eyes.
I'd reaaally like to hear why google is evil in your eyes.
On January 13 2010 09:18 T.O.P. wrote: If you want to operate in China you have to follow China's rules. China doesn't need Google, but Google might want revenues from China's 1.3 billion population. I don't see Google getting any concessions because it doesn't have any leverage.
I don't believe that Google expects this to be a profitable decision. Which baffles me, can Google - a cooperation controlled by the rules of capitalism - do something good for goodness sake? I doubt it but I don't see how this can be profitable for them so... Yey! Go Google!
EDIT: Yea, mucker a few posts above me made me see things clearly. I agree with his post.
What was I thinking?
I see it as damage control decision, to avoid future losses. First of all, I'd imagine the move would enhance Google's reputation of social responsibility. With Google already dominating the search engine market and rapidly expanding into other areas, fostering fears of monopolistic behavior from Google, combined with the negative press Google has gotten for projects such as Google Books, positive press can only help them.
I'd imagine that the cyber attack also caused second thoughts about the Chinese government too. China's government has shown no qualms in regard to securing social stability. Consider the hundreds of billions of dollars worth of foreign securities it buys each year to manipulate its currency exchange rate, all to protect Chinese industries. Now, after the cyber attack, it's not too hard to imagine the Chinese government doing things to hurt Google and help out local internet companies. After all, the cyber attack showed an utter lack of respect of Google's property. Perhaps the risk of further damages from the government outweighed the opportunity for profit.
On January 13 2010 09:39 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don't know who I dislike the most: Google or the Chinese governement. They are equally evil in my eyes.
I'd reaaally like to hear why google is evil in your eyes.
I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
On January 13 2010 09:55 blue_arrow wrote: yeah google is basically nonexistent in china anyways baidu completely dominates
I wouldn't say Google is entirely nonexistent in China. Their market share is 29% whereas Baidu has 61%. It's roughly 2:1, but it's better than the alternative Chinese search engines.
On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote: I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote: I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
Don't be fooled, he doesn't work for google. Some one already posted facts that google is barely used in China. And I'm sure that if this had happened to any company, they would do the same.
According to these results, one of the previous posters is correct, Google has about a 21% market share in China. Although it is not as dominant as Baidu, it is still _very_ substantial and Google would be losing a ton of money if it pulled out.
On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote: I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
Larry and Sergey (and Eric) are the controlling shareholders. The stock is structured in such a way that basically nobody else gets much of a vote. And Larry and Sergey are really, really keen on doing what they think is the Right Thing To Do. It's one of the reasons I accepted my offer almost four years ago.
On January 13 2010 10:12 ShoCkeyy wrote: Don't be fooled, he doesn't work for google. Some one already posted facts that google is barely used in China. And I'm sure that if this had happened to any company, they would do the same.
Uh huh.
Read this article about 2009 search share and be educated. Quote: "Baidu led in market share with 63.9% followed by Google at 31.3%." Noticeably higher than the round 20% I quoted (to be certain I wasn't overstating).
According to these results, one of the previous posters is correct, Google has about a 21% market share in China. Although it is not as dominant as Baidu, it is still _very_ substantial and Google would be losing a ton of money if it pulled out.
Note that this article is covering 2005-2006 data, so it's comparatively out of date.
Just to give you guys siding with google an alternate perspective:
A friend of mine works for a government organisation in Sydney (I will not mention the organisation or his name, it is irrelevant).
Anyways, a representative from google came to ask them/him for an "information sharing agreement". Here's a summary of what transpired.
Google: "Hey, wouldn't it be great if you could give us your timetabling and traffic info so we can publish it to the masses? The masses prosper!" My friend (representative of organisation): "Wow that's a great idea google! Well, we don't want money for giving you this info but instead can we agree on some KPIs and/or SLA's and/or framework in regards to how/when this information is released" Google: "No" My friend: "But if the information will be issued in the public's interest then surely we have to set our a framework and performance criteria for serving the public. What do you expect? For us to just give you the info to do with as you please?" Google: "Yes"
Summary:
IMHO Google just wants to capture as much public (read: free) information as possible and turn it into business ventures. They're not interested in ANY of us. This is not about the freedom of anything... They were unsuccessful in coaxing China like they've done to most other government organisations. Boo hoo!
No doubt Google is losing money over this, but maybe they felt it would at least reduce the risk of losing more intellectual property that would outweigh whatever profits they could get from google.cn.
Perhaps the chinese government asked for more concessions or maybe it just told google to go away, or demanded shares of the company. Chinese don't seem to be very fond of foreign companies at all.
I find it hard to believe google would pull out with a 30% market share at the most prime time to be in china unless there were other circumstances to go along with it. A bunch of script kiddies hitting gmail is not it.
On January 13 2010 10:37 niteReloaded wrote: holy fuck china is such a joke country.. seriously.. hopefully their administration changes before they take over the world.
Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Stop turning this into an anti-China thread, otherwise everything will just degenerate into a flame war.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
I can use blogger.com
You think they don't have an equivalent? Free access to Youtube, Zoo porn, um other kinds of porn, gore and other internet treasure. Okay. What else? Democracy voting? Your population will vote for that guy media promotes, as simple as that and there is no other way.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
I can use blogger.com
You think they don't have an equivalent? Free access to Youtube, Zoo porn, um other kinds of porn, gore and other internet treasure. Okay. What else? Democracy voting? Your population will vote for that guy media promotes, as simple as that and there is no other way.
An extremely poor decision by google (since obviously we're not hearing the full story here). Their shares speak for itself on what most investors feel about their decision. I think google attempted some sort of power play no doubt with China's Baidu and it failed so they're trying to go for an unsuccessful hardball here. (aka "we don't censor so use us instead of Baidu!" etc etc)
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
I can use blogger.com
You think they don't have an equivalent? Free access to Youtube, Zoo porn, um other kinds of porn, gore and other internet treasure. Okay. What else? Democracy voting? Your population will vote for that guy media promotes, as simple as that and there is no other way.
First news I read today. Sad, too sad to feel any anger. Be evil or leaving China, Google made a decision 4 years ago and now they regret it. I want to hear more on this from their fiscal results conference call next week.
Those who say Chinese don't care Google (we have Baidu), Facebook (we have Renren), Blogspot, Twitter (we have Sina), Youtube (we have Youku, Tudou), you'd better say on your own behalf. Even CCTV use Youtube videos occasionally (oh yeah they must have some stable proxy or VPN to open Youtube from China). No one can speak for 1.3 billion population. Yes, my grandparents can live with it because they don't go online; my parents can live with it as well because all they do online is playing mahjong or shopping. But I hate living with it. What Chinese government do is to make most people shut up and let a few "speak" on 2 or 3 obedient sites under censorship.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
I can use blogger.com
You think they don't have an equivalent? Free access to Youtube, Zoo porn, um other kinds of porn, gore and other internet treasure. Okay. What else? Democracy voting? Your population will vote for that guy media promotes, as simple as that and there is no other way.
How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
On January 13 2010 11:06 Emlary wrote: First news I read today. Sad, too sad to feel any anger. Be evil or leaving China, Google made a decision 4 years ago and now they regret it. I want to hear more on this from their fiscal results conference call next week.
Those who say Chinese don't care Google (we have Baidu), Facebook (we have Renren), Blogspot, Twitter (we have Sina), Youtube (we have Youku, Tudou), you'd better say on your own behalf. Even CCTV use Youtube videos occasionally (oh yeah they must have some stable proxy or VPN to open Youtube from China). No one can speak for 1.3 billion population. Yes, my grandparents can live with it because they don't go online; my parents can live with it as well because all they do online is playing mahjong or shopping. But I hate living with it. What Chinese government do is to make most people shut up and let a few "speak" on 2 or 3 obedient sites under censorship.
If you are interested in politics and want to talk about it. You can go and talk to people that matter politically, educated about politics.
All what casual, unrelated to politics people do is parroting what they read on news without understanding of anything. It's the intelligent elite of a nation that should take decisions.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
I can use blogger.com
You think they don't have an equivalent? Free access to Youtube, Zoo porn, um other kinds of porn, gore and other internet treasure. Okay. What else? Democracy voting? Your population will vote for that guy media promotes, as simple as that and there is no other way.
How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
...? This is very confusing to me. Do you even know the Chinese government constitution? Because you're talking as if you do.
On January 13 2010 11:06 Emlary wrote: First news I read today. Sad, too sad to feel any anger. Be evil or leaving China, Google made a decision 4 years ago and now they regret it. I want to hear more on this from their fiscal results conference call next week.
Those who say Chinese don't care Google (we have Baidu), Facebook (we have Renren), Blogspot, Twitter (we have Sina), Youtube (we have Youku, Tudou), you'd better say on your own behalf. Even CCTV use Youtube videos occasionally (oh yeah they must have some stable proxy or VPN to open Youtube from China). No one can speak for 1.3 billion population. Yes, my grandparents can live with it because they don't go online; my parents can live with it as well because all they do online is playing mahjong or shopping. But I hate living with it. What Chinese government do is to make most people shut up and let a few "speak" on 2 or 3 obedient sites under censorship.
I don't mean to sound the way people do when they go like "if you hate it so much why don't you leave?" but I'm actually curious why do you stay? Immigration from China to the US isn't that difficult.
On January 13 2010 11:06 Emlary wrote: First news I read today. Sad, too sad to feel any anger. Be evil or leaving China, Google made a decision 4 years ago and now they regret it. I want to hear more on this from their fiscal results conference call next week.
Those who say Chinese don't care Google (we have Baidu), Facebook (we have Renren), Blogspot, Twitter (we have Sina), Youtube (we have Youku, Tudou), you'd better say on your own behalf. Even CCTV use Youtube videos occasionally (oh yeah they must have some stable proxy or VPN to open Youtube from China). No one can speak for 1.3 billion population. Yes, my grandparents can live with it because they don't go online; my parents can live with it as well because all they do online is playing mahjong or shopping. But I hate living with it. What Chinese government do is to make most people shut up and let a few "speak" on 2 or 3 obedient sites under censorship.
If you are interested in politics and want to talk about it. You can go and talk to people that matter politically, educated about politics.
All what casual, unrelated to politics people do is parroting what they read on news without understanding of anything. It's the intelligent elite of a nation that should take decisions.
When you're speaking of a junta of any sort, power can easily corrupt. While I think the current Chinese government is doing a good job (say what you will but at least China's improving the average standard of living for it's citizens unlike what's going on here =(! ) I think blanket statements for any sort of government is ... idealistic at best. >.<
I don't want to talk about politics at all. If possible, I don't hear the word in my entire life. But it disturbs my life.
I'm worried that maybe one day I can't open TL because TL doesn't register at Chinese government, fails to make the "white list" - any foreign site goes to the blacklist automatically. Some officials have already mentioned this. No one knows when this is gonna happen.
On January 13 2010 11:33 Emlary wrote: I don't want to talk about politics at all. If possible, I don't hear the word in my entire life. But it disturbs my life.
I'm worried that maybe one day I can't open TL because TL doesn't register at Chinese government, fails to make the "white list" - any foreign site goes to the blacklist automatically. Some officials have already mentioned this. No one knows when this is gonna happen.
While I understand your position, I feel I should say, if you're going to try to just "ignore politics" than complaining about it is just stupid. Students have always been one of the most vocal elements in Chinese politics, the idea of just "standing aside" when you have such a disagreement with the system is just ... unnatural to me.
On January 13 2010 11:33 Emlary wrote: I don't want to talk about politics at all. If possible, I don't hear the word in my entire life. But it disturbs my life.
I'm worried that maybe one day I can't open TL because TL doesn't register at Chinese government, fails to make the "white list" - any foreign site goes to the blacklist automatically. Some officials have already mentioned this. No one knows when this is gonna happen.
While I understand your position, I feel I should say, if you're going to try to just "ignore politics" than complaining about it is just stupid. Students have always been one of the most vocal elements in Chinese politics, the idea of just "standing aside" when you have such a disagreement with the system is just ... unnatural to me.
The reasonable person is never one to change a system to conform to his wishes, instead he changes to conform to the system; its the stubborn unreasonable person that refuses to conform to the system and thus is the catalyst for its reform.
Google is overreacting in my opinion, unless there is another bigger reason that we don't know about. Corporations are always supposed to maintain a high level of cyber-security anyway.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
I can use blogger.com
You think they don't have an equivalent? Free access to Youtube, Zoo porn, um other kinds of porn, gore and other internet treasure. Okay. What else? Democracy voting? Your population will vote for that guy media promotes, as simple as that and there is no other way.
How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
...? This is very confusing to me. Do you even know the Chinese government constitution? Because you're talking as if you do.
On January 13 2010 11:33 Emlary wrote: I don't want to talk about politics at all. If possible, I don't hear the word in my entire life. But it disturbs my life.
I'm worried that maybe one day I can't open TL because TL doesn't register at Chinese government, fails to make the "white list" - any foreign site goes to the blacklist automatically. Some officials have already mentioned this. No one knows when this is gonna happen.
me, too. I don't to talk about this, but I think this is whole a political thing. Maybe some other people don't know what is happening here in China. The government is doing almost everything to reduce the freedom of speech. They closed thousands of websites because of the so called "porn reason". They tell us that gambling is not legal and smoking is not healthy. But actually, prostitution, lottery ticket selling and tobacco are all controlled and could be controlled only by themselves. Sorry about my poor English. BTW, I'm trying to learn English to emmigrate abroad. This is not very easy to many of us. It depends on many conditions including lots of money.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
On January 13 2010 11:33 Emlary wrote: I don't want to talk about politics at all. If possible, I don't hear the word in my entire life. But it disturbs my life.
I'm worried that maybe one day I can't open TL because TL doesn't register at Chinese government, fails to make the "white list" - any foreign site goes to the blacklist automatically. Some officials have already mentioned this. No one knows when this is gonna happen.
While I understand your position, I feel I should say, if you're going to try to just "ignore politics" than complaining about it is just stupid. Students have always been one of the most vocal elements in Chinese politics, the idea of just "standing aside" when you have such a disagreement with the system is just ... unnatural to me.
The reasonable person is never one to change a system to conform to his wishes, instead he changes to conform to the system; its the stubborn unreasonable person that refuses to conform to the system and thus is the catalyst for its reform.
The river just goes along with the flow, following the contours of the rock. How could something as powerless as an individual water molecule possibly destroy a mighty rock in its lifetime? But over generations, a deep, beautiful canyon is formed.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
On January 13 2010 11:33 Emlary wrote: I don't want to talk about politics at all. If possible, I don't hear the word in my entire life. But it disturbs my life.
I'm worried that maybe one day I can't open TL because TL doesn't register at Chinese government, fails to make the "white list" - any foreign site goes to the blacklist automatically. Some officials have already mentioned this. No one knows when this is gonna happen.
While I understand your position, I feel I should say, if you're going to try to just "ignore politics" than complaining about it is just stupid. Students have always been one of the most vocal elements in Chinese politics, the idea of just "standing aside" when you have such a disagreement with the system is just ... unnatural to me.
The reasonable person is never one to change a system to conform to his wishes, instead he changes to conform to the system; its the stubborn unreasonable person that refuses to conform to the system and thus is the catalyst for its reform.
The river just goes along with the flow, following the contours of the rock. How could something as powerless as an individual water molecule possibly destroy a mighty rock in its lifetime? But over generations, a deep, beautiful canyon is formed.
Single water molecule doesn't destroy the mighty rock, which is itself probably a bunch of powerless molecules too.
China's probably one of the last countries with real grit left that can resist multinational corporate totalitarianism. Regardless of what kind of picture the western media tries to paint, China allows for complete freedom except those having to do with politics.
Neither is politics wholly responsible for the "human rights" issues, which more often than not is a matter of bureaucratic ineffectiveness. China has about 1/3 of the laws US has, and x4 the population, and it's mid-industrialization. So there's a whole lot of factors at work here.
Dynastic China has allowed foreign entities to destabilize its society once already, it'll never again make that mistake. Western democracy is not feasible for China (like it's not feasible in all the places it foisted its ideal on, which in term become hopelessly corupt), instead it'll have to be like the economic reform where China will take it and recreate it to suit its own social-economic realities (while protecting itself from foreign influences).
China will be in control of China, that's the whole enchilada, the bottomline.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
says the russian guy!!
like that if you never had innocent killing in Russia and your country doesn't sell armament and finance terrorists countries like Syria, Iran, afghanistan, N Korea, etc. and your president respect his opponents, right?
my family had to move away from Russia or they would be killed there, moved to poland and then to brazil, where they are respected, there is no racism, intolerance, etc....
USA spreads democracy, removing those crazy dictators who only leads their countries to wars and genocide.
I hope they do the same with N. Korea and Iran, before they start sending nuclear bombs around.
don't want to see Japan, S. Korea or Israel destroyed... or even European countries, since Iran is doing what they can to have missiles able to reach Europe.
I know this thread is only informative about google and china, but I couldn't see his post and be quiet...
edit: Im not saying that russian, n. korean or iranians are bad people, but their governants are...
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
Actually he's right. Here in the US regular people are being deliberately kept in the dark on a lot of imortant issues. That's cus mass media has been undergoing huge consolidation and privatization since the 70s. And any educated person will tell you, an informed public via decentralized reporting is one of the pillars of democracy.
What do we hear on the news the most these days? Nothing really impacting, just the 4Cs - children (most likely disabled), critters (trapped on a tree), catastrophe (big pileups, crop failures, etc.), and celebs, celebs, CELEBS...
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
I can use blogger.com
You think they don't have an equivalent? Free access to Youtube, Zoo porn, um other kinds of porn, gore and other internet treasure. Okay. What else? Democracy voting? Your population will vote for that guy media promotes, as simple as that and there is no other way.
At least our media can promote whatever it wants to
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
oh yeah lets kill all the jewish people again, they are evil!!
there isn't a historical factor behind the reason the number of jews on power in USA is so high, its just because they are evil and must be dead!
LOL oh god... can't believe I still argue against ignorant racists...
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
If you close-mindedly dismiss it for no good reason, there are still other people and videos, but they are so much less direct and honest. Like This or This
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
If you close-mindedly dismiss it for no good reason, there are still other people and videos, but they are so much less direct and honest. Like This or This
How is that no good reason? You've been blowing my mind consecutively throughout this thread, but this one takes the cake. Do you know what being a Grand Wizard in the Klu-Klux-Klan implies?
Alright so the video just finished (yes, I watched it all), and it's pretty much the same anti-Jewish power theory that has been claimed by countless other people..
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
If you close-mindedly dismiss it for no good reason, there are still other people and videos, but they are so much less direct and honest. Like This or This
Fuck you
Can you please not spread anti-semitic propaganda around here? That video is totally bullshit and is the exact same lie that put Hitler in power. The great Jewish conspiracy has been around forever and has absolutely no truth behind it at all.
Besides, it has nothing to do with the OP at all.
On topic: I think this is an interesting and commendable move from Google considering their strong initiative for human rights. I feel really bad for Chinese posters like Emlary now. I guess you don't think about the freedoms you have until you lose them.
Hmm, maybe Google was about to get kicked out of China for whatever reason (not necessarily the story they're spinning) - and this story makes it easier for them to save face?
But stories like MaZza[KIS]'s is one of the reasons why I'm starting to get wary of google - they're cataloging so much information, including information on people, that perhaps eventually they'll know all about your preferences, relationships, and your life - and can make good predictions about your behavior, and more.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
If you close-mindedly dismiss it for no good reason, there are still other people and videos, but they are so much less direct and honest. Like This or This
How is that no good reason? You've been blowing my mind consecutively throughout this thread, but this one takes the cake. Do you know what being a Grand Wizard in the Klu-Klux-Klan implies?
Embrace the information and it will blow your mind even more. You don't need to be a supremacist for that.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
If you close-mindedly dismiss it for no good reason, there are still other people and videos, but they are so much less direct and honest. Like This or This
How is that no good reason? You've been blowing my mind consecutively throughout this thread, but this one takes the cake. Do you know what being a Grand Wizard in the Klu-Klux-Klan implies?
Embrace the information and it will blow your mind even more. You don't need to be a supremacist for that.
Embrace it? I absorbed it but I'm not sure what you mean by that. Do I believe that there is some mysterious Jewish World Order now? Is that your question? No, I don't. The only thing that "blew my mind even more" was that you think I watched the 10 minute video to not watch the 10 minute video.
edit: Scrolling through the comments are funny. The people who fully support this are the same ones who claim the holocaust didn't happen/was grossly overstated.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
If you close-mindedly dismiss it for no good reason, there are still other people and videos, but they are so much less direct and honest. Like This or This
contrary to popular belief there are many people in the united states who dont blindly support israel and have heard/seen how fucked up palestine is. There are fucked up people on both sides. That 2nd video is just a soldier talking about how he felt. People say stuff like this all the time in the US. This isnt "news." Dont get the idea that america is nothing but a bunch of bible thumping rednecks. Thats only some of us. It would be like me comparing everyone in Russia to the KGB. Its obviously not the case.
Still though, David Duke is a racist moron. Asking him about jews is like asking Jerry Falwell about gay people.
Except they aren't losing. According to the information posted previously, they've been GAINING market share (albeit fairly slowly) and currently have 31% of the market. That's not small beans when considering the number of internet users in China and its rapid growth.
This is undoubtedly not the whole story of course. Only Google can know their exact reasons for this move.
Also, all this talk about American media, and Jewish power blocks, and David Duke (LOL) is stupid and off-topic. Make a new thread, if you want to beat the dead horse.
American news media is deeply flawed. Granted. And as an American, it's something I readily admit and hope to see change. But for an anti-Semitic Russian lunatic to come in here, call it the nastiest propaganda tool in history and then to simultaneously endorse the KKK and various Hitlerisms is nothing more than heinous bullshit at its sickest. Maybe I'm just another ignorant American mimicking my media because I've heard them talk ill of the Klan ..
As for Google's move, I'm glad. This obviously has financial ramifications and is not exclusively a moral decision (no decision that a multi-billion dollar business makes is), it is nonetheless a positive message. Will this move China to suddenly open itself up? No. Is it one more straw on an exceptionally strong camel's back? Yes.
I have a feeling Google and China had some sort of disagreement other than Chinese organizations hacking Google's userdata.
I would be surprised if those organizations recently began the hacking; it must have been an ongoing process for a long time. I feel that Google only chose to disclose such delicate information as a result of a bigger conflict in interest.
From the interview it is stated that revenues from China is very small compared to the US, so it's not going to really affect anything one way or another.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
I think we can pinpoint this post as the exact moment the thread turned into a shitstorm
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
I think we can pinpoint this post as the exact moment the thread turned into a shitstorm
Yep.
Sad news anyhow, but it does feel like there's a lot that we're not being told.
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
Don't you love the irony of someone criticizing something as a "propaganda machine" the same time a "Klansmen" has him eating out of his palm? Really entertaining stuff.
ya i m pretty sure this spells the end of google.cn.
the worst thing you can ever do in China is to challenge the authority of the gov. by publicly refusing to filter search terms is a direct violation of the gov policy. the gov is well known for its intolerance of disobedience and utter lack of mercy.
i'd be surprised if google.cn can still be accessed from mainland by next week.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
I think we can pinpoint this post as the exact moment the thread turned into a shitstorm
On January 13 2010 13:39 Cambium wrote: I have a feeling Google and China had some sort of disagreement other than Chinese organizations hacking Google's userdata.
I would be surprised if those organizations recently began the hacking; it must have been an ongoing process for a long time. I feel that Google only chose to disclose such delicate information as a result of a bigger conflict in interest.
I doubt we would ever hear the full story.
I agree.
People who are experienced with Google's affiliated marketing would know that Google's business is content delivery. The freer the market, the more Google will thrive.
I have no doubt that Google make a lot of money from Chinese market but how much of that really ends up in their pocket? I wouldn't be surprised if someone important suddenly decided that they want a piece of that pie.
Like it or not, to make money in China, you need to understand the 'Chinese reality'.
I wonder what will happen to that Lee Kai Fu guy, last time I heard, he is starting his own tech company, maybe he knows what's up.
On January 13 2010 09:39 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don't know who I dislike the most: Google or the Chinese governement. They are equally evil in my eyes.
Everything looks evil through the eyes of an idiot? User was temp banned for this post.
Anyone hear what happened to Baidu the other day? Apparently some Iranian hacker group hijacked it for a bit. A few hours damn near every Iranian government website got taken down/vandalized in response. Pretty lulz IMO.
On January 13 2010 17:40 Taku wrote: Anyone hear what happened to Baidu the other day? Apparently some Iranian hacker group hijacked it for a bit. A few hours damn near every Iranian government website got taken down/vandalized in response. Pretty lulz IMO.
yeah, it was apparently the same group that took down twitter a little while back. strange - what would they be attacking china for?
On January 13 2010 17:56 FragKrag wrote: I don't think it is attacking China as much as attacking sites that get a lot of traffic?
well, the same group ostensibly attacked twitter to criticize us interference within iran. i'd guess that the same message or at least a similar one is being peddled here.
i could be wrong but i've read that the image the chinese were redirected to was in Farsi and said:
"Iranian (Persian) Cyber Army, is formed (and is on the move), in protest for the meddling of the foreign and Zionist sites in our countries domestic affairs and broadcasting of false news and inciting of conflict."
but to be fair, that translation is taken from the nyt comment section and, as far as the so-called army, it's not even know who or where these guys are from, so it's all a bit of guesswork.
I feel like I should write a letter of sincere appreciation to Google for standing up for what is right, albeit three years late.
Instead I'll just say mad props Google, mad props. They are risking millions of dollars (completely made up figure, could be billions) because of ethical issues. Not something many other corporations would do.
actually. to hack a server takes a few hours, like for example.. Trendmicro (I worked there for 2 years) it's virus encyclopedia server got hacked and it took like 3 days for the maintenance guys to fixed it LOLZ!
On January 13 2010 09:39 Biff The Understudy wrote: I don't know who I dislike the most: Google or the Chinese governement. They are equally evil in my eyes.
I'd reaaally like to hear why google is evil in your eyes.
Because hackers and pirates can get huge fees when they are caught whereas google is basicly stealing thousands and thousands of books ( unpunished ) and they have no rights to do so.
They doesn't respect intellectual property but the music, game or book industries are just too affraid to sue them. Hopefully States aren't and that why Google got fined a couple of time for stealing the books of some State libraries in France.
On January 13 2010 18:16 Licmyobelisk wrote: actually. to hack a server takes a few hours, like for example.. Trendmicro (I worked there for 2 years) it's virus encyclopedia server got hacked and it took like 3 days for the maintenance guys to fixed it LOLZ!
On January 13 2010 18:16 Licmyobelisk wrote: actually. to hack a server takes a few hours, like for example.. Trendmicro (I worked there for 2 years) it's virus encyclopedia server got hacked and it took like 3 days for the maintenance guys to fixed it LOLZ!
off topic but why does TM Internet Security suck so bad? :/
TM security sucks so bad cause our Anti-Virus Programmers are so limited.. it's like one anti-virus engineer vs a 1000 guys that updates a single worm/virus/trojan software.
Plus, the heuristics (used to detect the behavior of malicious software) really does suck unlike that of Kaspersky and NOD32 (back in the day)
let's just say that there is only a handful scientist that can create a cure for one variant of disease while the population is stupid enough to infect each other, hence, making more variants but the same disease.
So, meaning.. we just didn't have that many talent in trendmicro to slug it out with the millions and millions of guys that can create a dang fucked up virus within 30 minutes.
Anyway, combofix is getting no where as well as far I as heard, the malwares can stop it's processes thus preventing it from removing the .dll .exe etc files created by the malwares.
If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
On January 13 2010 18:15 orgolove wrote: Incoming the resident rabid Chinese nationalists. How long did it take this time? 2 pages?
Why are there always comments like this in every thread pertaining to China?
MamiyaOtaru pointed out an instance of a rabid anti-Chinese post with little bearing to the thread that pretty much derailed it for a couple of pages. Your turn to point out a rabid Chinese nationalist.
Blind Chinese nationalism is annoying, but blind anti-Chinese sentiments are just as bad, and I'm getting tired of seeing them on TL.
On January 13 2010 18:15 orgolove wrote: Incoming the resident rabid Chinese nationalists. How long did it take this time? 2 pages?
Why are there always comments like this in every thread pertaining to China?
MamiyaOtaru pointed out an instance of a rabid anti-Chinese post with little bearing to the thread that pretty much derailed it for a couple of pages. Your turn to point out a rabid Chinese nationalist.
Blind Chinese nationalism is annoying, but blind anti-Chinese sentiments are just as bad, and I'm getting tired of seeing them on TL.
50% of orgolove's post is drivel like that. People have pretty much learned to ignore him. =)
Also motbob, if you actually looked at that wiki article instead of spending five seconds to search for something to link, you wouldn't have made such retarded statements.
It seems people are confused at what a socialist government means.
On January 13 2010 18:15 orgolove wrote: Incoming the resident rabid Chinese nationalists. How long did it take this time? 2 pages?
Why are there always comments like this in every thread pertaining to China?
MamiyaOtaru pointed out an instance of a rabid anti-Chinese post with little bearing to the thread that pretty much derailed it for a couple of pages. Your turn to point out a rabid Chinese nationalist.
Blind Chinese nationalism is annoying, but blind anti-Chinese sentiments are just as bad, and I'm getting tired of seeing them on TL.
50% of orgolove's post is drivel like that. People have pretty much learned to ignore him. =)
Also motbob, if you actually looked at that wiki article instead of spending five seconds to search for something to link, you wouldn't have made such retarded statements.
It seems people are confused at what a socialist government means.
You don't have the right to tell me I'm making retarded statements and then not back yourself up. I drew a clear distinction between the dichotomy of the promised as opposed to the actual freedom of the press in China and the true right of freedom of the press that we have in America. I did my best to link articles that weren't from biased sources, looking hard for a news article from Reuters instead of from a website dedicated to exposing Chinese human rights violations. What the hell gives you the right to sit on your high horse and call me an idiot?
On January 13 2010 18:15 orgolove wrote: Incoming the resident rabid Chinese nationalists. How long did it take this time? 2 pages?
Why are there always comments like this in every thread pertaining to China?
MamiyaOtaru pointed out an instance of a rabid anti-Chinese post with little bearing to the thread that pretty much derailed it for a couple of pages. Your turn to point out a rabid Chinese nationalist.
Blind Chinese nationalism is annoying, but blind anti-Chinese sentiments are just as bad, and I'm getting tired of seeing them on TL.
50% of orgolove's post is drivel like that. People have pretty much learned to ignore him. =)
Also motbob, if you actually looked at that wiki article instead of spending five seconds to search for something to link, you wouldn't have made such retarded statements.
It seems people are confused at what a socialist government means.
You don't have the right to tell me I'm making retarded statements and then not back yourself up. I drew a clear distinction between the dichotomy of the promised as opposed to the actual freedom of the press in China and the true right of freedom of the press that we have in America. I did my best to link articles that weren't from biased sources, looking hard for a news article from Reuters instead of from a website dedicated to exposing Chinese human rights violations. What the hell gives you the right to sit on your high horse and call me an idiot?
Promised freedom of press? Once again, did you actually look into their constitution? If you tried your best to look for articles, you could've linked something more informative than a wikipedia article.
On January 14 2010 00:25 motbob wrote: Oh fuck you're right, they amended it >.<
=P
Anyway, I shouldn't have called you an idiot so I apologize for that. I just thought it was really silly that people keep holding their own pro-Western beliefs to apply to a country they know little about. Socialism has faults (hell I think it's an awful idea for countries like the US) but I think it's a necessary step in the development for a nation of China's size and history.
In other news, I HIGHLY doubt this is an "ethical issue" as Google tries to spin it. Their shares are in practical free fall, I think there's something fishy on this story.
Whatever. China will do what it thinks is best for China and we can continue to look in from the outside, free of context and perspective and talk about how evil they are. To me, the important part of this story is that a huge corporation is willing to drop a large part of its operations for what, at least superficially, seems like largely a moral issue. That's pretty rad.
edit:
On second thought, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if similar attacks have happened in order to gain access to Google's IP as opposed to the information of its users. This is an essential truth of the Chinese market - bring in your foreign ideas and we will copy them and do it on our own. China doesn't want Google, it want's Google's tech.
As an aside, I work for a technology company and we have started selling our equipment to various global markets. One that could have huge potential to us is China. But there's no way we'd ever go there. We bring our technology to China and it's a certainty that soon after we'll be competing with our own stuff - namely cheaper, Chinese knock-offs.
A hack attack that targeted Google in December also hit 33 other companies, including financial institutions and defense contractors, and was aimed at stealing source code from the companies, say security researchers at iDefense.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
The Chinese press is now filled with debates and articles on this and I just read a few really insightful ones but too bad they are too long for me to translate anything. Anyways one comment is that in 5 years China will have more Internet users than US Japan Germany UK and France combined. That's when global Internet landscape will be dramatically different from now, and Google is forfeiting this big and still growing market. Google China may be still losing money in the short term, but losing this market all together is strategically such a much more gigantic and stupider loss.
On January 14 2010 03:30 iloahz wrote: The Chinese press is now filled with debates and articles on this and I just read a few really insightful ones but too bad they are too long for me to translate anything. Anyways one comment is that in 5 years China will have more Internet users than US Japan Germany UK and France combined. That's when global Internet landscape will be dramatically different from now, and Google is forfeiting this big and still growing market. Google China may be still losing money in the short term, but losing this market all together is strategically such a much more gigantic and stupider loss.
Google always has the option of getting back in the market when China isn't trying to steal their intellectual property.
On January 14 2010 03:30 iloahz wrote: The Chinese press is now filled with debates and articles on this and I just read a few really insightful ones but too bad they are too long for me to translate anything. Anyways one comment is that in 5 years China will have more Internet users than US Japan Germany UK and France combined. That's when global Internet landscape will be dramatically different from now, and Google is forfeiting this big and still growing market. Google China may be still losing money in the short term, but losing this market all together is strategically such a much more gigantic and stupider loss.
Google always has the option of getting back in the market when China isn't trying to steal their intellectual property.
But the reason of google's withdrawal is not about China trying to steal anything I assume. And even if google decides to get back in China some time in the future, it'll be a completely different game I think.
IMO It has nothing to do with moral values or freedom or all the other bullshit they just don't like being hacked, "whats next the Chinese takes over the company ? Hell no, we are getting out of here." The Chinese government doesn't like this because Google might influence other companies to leave as well. "yo hear that Google is leaving lets get outta here before we get *hacked* too.
On January 14 2010 03:30 iloahz wrote: The Chinese press is now filled with debates and articles on this and I just read a few really insightful ones but too bad they are too long for me to translate anything. Anyways one comment is that in 5 years China will have more Internet users than US Japan Germany UK and France combined. That's when global Internet landscape will be dramatically different from now, and Google is forfeiting this big and still growing market. Google China may be still losing money in the short term, but losing this market all together is strategically such a much more gigantic and stupider loss.
Google always has the option of getting back in the market when China isn't trying to steal their intellectual property.
Not really, if Google pulls out by saying that it won't comply with China's evil firewall then it's going to generate some bad press for China. That's going to piss off China's politicians. If you want to do business in China, you're gonna need political help or you're not going to get started. Google created a PR disaster for China and I think that even Google doesn't have enough bribe money to get back into China's market again.
On January 14 2010 03:45 Gigaudas wrote: pyrogenetix's post is pretty f*cking interesting. Not sure if I trust that pyrogenetix is an objective observer though.
I think it's pretty freaking interesting that non-Chinese are so clueless about the situation in China to the extent that they find truth interesting. But anyways pyrogenetic really speaks the truth.
As news of Google's bombshell threat to abandon its China operations spread yesterday, some Chinese citizens began bringing flowers to Google's corporate headquarters at the Tsinghua Science Park in Beijing. According to a tweet from "jason5ng32," the action caught the attention of security forces, who promptly coined a new phrase: "illegal flower donation." You can't do much better than that, if you're looking for a metaphor that expresses the Chinese government's resolve to control freedom of expression -- in any medium.
Source (Salon) in an article about possible motives for Google's move.
As news of Google's bombshell threat to abandon its China operations spread yesterday, some Chinese citizens began bringing flowers to Google's corporate headquarters at the Tsinghua Science Park in Beijing. According to a tweet from "jason5ng32," the action caught the attention of security forces, who promptly coined a new phrase: "illegal flower donation." You can't do much better than that, if you're looking for a metaphor that expresses the Chinese government's resolve to control freedom of expression -- in any medium.
On January 13 2010 13:28 Conquest101 wrote: Except they aren't losing. According to the information posted previously, they've been GAINING market share (albeit fairly slowly) and currently have 31% of the market. That's not small beans when considering the number of internet users in China and its rapid growth.
This is undoubtedly not the whole story of course. Only Google can know their exact reasons for this move.
Also, all this talk about American media, and Jewish power blocks, and David Duke (LOL) is stupid and off-topic. Make a new thread, if you want to beat the dead horse.
´ This is just a theory but couldn't it be that google has been gaining a market and that the goverment was just about to (maybe slowly) force google out and decreasing their success (to protect it's own market). And so when the hacking began google just pulled out of a loosing market instead of investing more into it (which then would be pointless).
The lack of the theory would be that if you where google then it could be a good move to stay until you're litterarly forced out from china then publish it all thus maybe forcing the world to make china open it's market towards google. Althoug this would be a risk if the world would choose to let it be in order to not upset china and it would probably cost the company(google) more money than just backing out.
Sorry for not reading through all the posts before posting
It really would be sad for u chineese TL users if this site would be blacklisted The best of luck
Also great post by pyrogenetics, it really make me wanna learn about the chineese situation and how the goverment works and what they strive for. Shame i dont know anything
I really REALLY doubt that if Google ever pulls out of China, they will be allowed back in the future. They've made the government lose too much face for that to ever happen short of a huge groveling apology stating they were wrong.
I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote: I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
i just love average joe's romanticizing of google like it's a person, that goes for these flower leavers too
it's just stupid and so out of depth with the corporate reality. this is just PR tact like some have mentioned already
On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote: I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
Rather, I think the Chinese government is going to use Google as a example so that no other corporation will deal with the Chinese government in this manner again.
On January 14 2010 03:30 iloahz wrote: The Chinese press is now filled with debates and articles on this and I just read a few really insightful ones but too bad they are too long for me to translate anything. Anyways one comment is that in 5 years China will have more Internet users than US Japan Germany UK and France combined. That's when global Internet landscape will be dramatically different from now, and Google is forfeiting this big and still growing market. Google China may be still losing money in the short term, but losing this market all together is strategically such a much more gigantic and stupider loss.
Google always has the option of getting back in the market when China isn't trying to steal their intellectual property.
Not really, if Google pulls out by saying that it won't comply with China's evil firewall then it's going to generate some bad press for China. That's going to piss off China's politicians. If you want to do business in China, you're gonna need political help or you're not going to get started. Google created a PR disaster for China and I think that even Google doesn't have enough bribe money to get back into China's market again.
That's the current political climate, and it is a climate that google has decided it is not worth it to continue in. Should google want to go back itself (Read, have a good chance with the Chinese population having significantly more options in e-commerce as well as higher standards of living on top of having less government interference), it isn't about to try to go back with everything else like this. Like people said, this isn't a decision made purely based on morals, but that also means google fully recognizes what it could be losing when it made huge PR deal out of this.
On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote: I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
Rather, I think the Chinese government is going to use Google as a example so that no other corporation will deal with the Chinese government in this manner again.
I think not, even if it is China, trying to play hardball like that is foolish. Pyrogenix's post starts to touch up on how tough it is for foreign companies to operate in China when he addressed how the culture and people work over there. To add more political pressures onto that in this fashion doesn't serve them any real purpose, most companies aren't google, they won't try to pull stunts like this in the first place.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
that's so completely naive
china is a country so large in population and cultural diversity that it really is incomprehensible to most outside observers.
to bring order to such an eclectic mix is political tightrope on an order unimaginable to the best US politicians. does the central government control everything? no, they don't.
I apologize for my post turning this thread into a shit storm. I was merely venting about the ceaseless stream of articles I seem to read where China is involved in some ridiculous civil rights violation and how quite frankly I'm tired of hearing about it. That's not to say it's not important, but it's grows on you after a while that these issues aren't isolated incidents, like they usually are in most western countries.
They are a steady and deliberate stream of violations with one common purpose: to subdue the public and prevent freedom of speech.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
that's so completely naive
china is a country so large in population and cultural diversity that it really is incomprehensible to most outside observers.
to bring order to such an eclectic mix is political tightrope on an order unimaginable to the best US politicians. does the central government control everything? no, they don't.
I think the point was that the pyrogenetix scenario was a gigantic assumption so Durak provided a counter scenario that was also based on assumption. Neither are good arguments for or against freedom of information because they are hypothetical situations. However, I can easily see how rapid change could lead to revolution. But withholding power "for their own good" is a common justification that allows those in power to remain in power.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
that's so completely naive
china is a country so large in population and cultural diversity that it really is incomprehensible to most outside observers.
to bring order to such an eclectic mix is political tightrope on an order unimaginable to the best US politicians. does the central government control everything? no, they don't.
I think the point was that the pyrogenetix scenario was a gigantic assumption so Durak provided a counter scenario that was also based on assumption. Neither are good arguments for or against freedom of information because they are hypothetical situations. However, I can easily see how rapid change could lead to revolution. But withholding power "for their own good" is a common justification that allows those in power to remain in power.
pyrogenetix's scenario is not an assumption, it's the hard reality. the disparage of wealth in China is as vast as its population, in fact almost every single gamut in China runs much wider than anywhere else I've been. you really gotta readjust your whole logic to understand it.
China is the 2nd largest consumer of luxury brands like rolls royce and louis vutton in the entire world, and at the same time a lot of people still live in abject poverty. how is that possible? that's cus, like I said, the gamut runs wide. its upper crest alone is large enough to take it to the top tier. that's why political decision can have much bigger effects than those in the US.
these naive flower people who want more political freedom don't have to contend with the consequences. China needs to take its time in reducing its restrictions while raising the avg living conditions to a degree where the avg person would understand why unrestricted freedom is bad news if it comes too fast.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
don't masquerade questions as examples to the contrary. just ask.
the simple answer is India has a completely different political atmosphere and although it has huge growth potential, it's not a contender for the geopolitical center of the world.
On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote: I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
i just love average joe's romanticizing of google like it's a person, that goes for these flower leavers too
it's just stupid and so out of depth with the corporate reality. this is just PR tact like some have mentioned already
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues.
And by the way, India IS in Asia so I don't know why you're saying "Asian prejudice?". I don't really see why prejudice plays a part in all of this either to be honest. Perhaps you're being very long-sighted.
On January 14 2010 09:17 Mickey wrote: I applaud Google for what they are doing. They are basically setting an example for corporations to follow in relation to dealing with the current Chinese government.
i just love average joe's romanticizing of google like it's a person, that goes for these flower leavers too
it's just stupid and so out of depth with the corporate reality. this is just PR tact like some have mentioned already
it's not a pr stunt because the attacks were quite serious, and a couple dozen other fortune 500 companies were similarly attacked. the implication in google's press release, and the one from the state dept is that they suspect the attacks originated from the chinese govt. there's a lot of gossip about them coming from inside google china, but who knows. they're not posturing on anything; it's a serious situation
On January 14 2010 11:17 .risingdragoon wrote: ...okay, so you don't know what PR is
go look it up
Stop being condescending. We know what PR is. Usually, it's a term used to describe actions that a company takes to improve its image. If the government is involved, it means that Google's actions were not made for PR reasons only. Intervention from the U.S. government clearly means that Google is responding to a real threat.
PR is the framing of existing events to give them the best possible appearance for your purpose
The attack already happened, but the public sure as hell doesn't have the whole picture. the point people like T.O.P brought up is cus the situation is complex and obviously more than the mere appearance is trying to suggest.
It's should be obvious cus the media dropped so many hints and subtle suggestions that "it's china dude china did it," they only stopped at explicitly stating it cus there's no evidence.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues.
Well i read lot of different newspapers, ranging from the extreme left to the right and none are praising China. But eh you are right i'm sure that there is a giant conspiracy against this wonderful country. I mean those journalists MUST be spies or Chinese haters obviously. They are brain washing us of course.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
don't masquerade questions as examples to the contrary. just ask.
the simple answer is India has a completely different political atmosphere and although it has huge growth potential, it's not a contender for the geopolitical center of the world.
Can you explain how China is more a contender than India for the geopolitical center of the world ?
On January 14 2010 11:25 .risingdragoon wrote: they only stopped at explicitly stating it cus there's no evidence.
of course there's evidence. you think google would publicly declare they may be withdrawing from china entirely if they didn't even have a bit of evidence? you think the US federal government would ask china for an explanation without proof? try to leave your chinese pride (im guessing you're chinese -- else you're just a complete tard) at the door
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues.
Well i read lot of different newspapers, ranging from the extreme left to the right and none are praising China. But eh you are right i'm sure that there is a giant conspiracy against this wonderful country. I mean those journalists MUST be spies or Chinese haters obviously. They are brain washing us of course.
There is a flood of negativity towards China in media. It's too independent and strong right now politically and it's potential is enormous. It's only obvious than it needs to be destabilized from a "zionist" pov. Simple logic.
Also the video that i linked to earlier got removed... too bad, it was short, informative and good. Hard to grasp the content for a casual forum reader when it's coming from Duke, but this topic has nothing to do with racism. The leader of Iran actually talked about it in the anti-racism context in his famous speech.
On January 14 2010 11:25 .risingdragoon wrote: they only stopped at explicitly stating it cus there's no evidence.
of course there's evidence. you think google would publicly declare they may be withdrawing from china entirely if they didn't even have a bit of evidence? you think the US federal government would ask china for an explanation without proof? try to leave your chinese pride (im guessing you're chinese -- else you're just a complete tard) at the door
it's got nothing to do with pride or whatever, this is the type of idiotic bullshit that's clogging up the political pipeline - let the facts be the facts without ad hominem, too hard? it doesn't matter if I'm chinese or not if I can think critically and not only along ethnic lines.
the whole discussion is hindged on the degree of knowledge - the public has the least. people think google knows more than they're telling and is using that knowledge to maneuver public opinion.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
don't masquerade questions as examples to the contrary. just ask.
the simple answer is India has a completely different political atmosphere and although it has huge growth potential, it's not a contender for the geopolitical center of the world.
Can you explain how China is more a contender than India for the geopolitical center of the world ?
India's democracy is notoriously corrupt. They have no infrastructure. Half of the population don't have access to clean water.
On January 14 2010 11:25 .risingdragoon wrote: they only stopped at explicitly stating it cus there's no evidence.
of course there's evidence. you think google would publicly declare they may be withdrawing from china entirely if they didn't even have a bit of evidence? you think the US federal government would ask china for an explanation without proof? try to leave your chinese pride (im guessing you're chinese -- else you're just a complete tard) at the door
I agree. I'm certain that Google has solid evidence. Could you imagine the backlash Google would get if people found out that the allegations were false. It's also not surprising that there are Chinese hackers trying to hack Google.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
don't masquerade questions as examples to the contrary. just ask.
the simple answer is India has a completely different political atmosphere and although it has huge growth potential, it's not a contender for the geopolitical center of the world.
Can you explain how China is more a contender than India for the geopolitical center of the world ?
yeah, well, that answer is way long and my opinion of the internet is that it'll teach you cut and dry skills but when it comes to world events you gotta do your own diligence.
the easiest answer is china has created a brand of capitalism that empowers itself rather than simply fall victim to it like so much of the world has already. it's pretty obvious that simply copying the same gameplan when you're late to the party will not get you back to the top.
This is pretty simple. I don't understand why there is argument and mudslinging coming out of this.
Google is attacked, and releases a statement (in the OP) that implies, but is carefully not explicit, that the Chinese government had something to do with it. They say they are going to discuss with China a way in which they can remove restrictions in their Chinese service that were needed to access the Chinese market to begin with. They have said that this may lead to them ending their operations in China.
This is, in essence, all we know on the subject, and assertions beyond this are speculative. There is no reason to reduce ourselves to the tone that this thread has taken. It is a perfectly legitimate thread, and like so many current events threads, it will be closed if we cannot keep a civil tongue with one another.
For people saying it's just a PR stunt, you forget that Sergey Brin and Larry Page still have majority voting power in the company. After them, Google employees own like another 30%+ voting power. While true that a companies obligation is to it's shareholders, when a company is set up such that two people own majority voting power, what these two people have to say matters a lot more. Brin and Page may have very well done it for human rights issues. I've met them in person, and they're both actually really nice folk. But then again, money can bring out the worst in people.
I just think Google got attacked by the Chinese government because they don't follow any rule except for their own, and they now that Google pulling out doesn't really hurts China in any significant way. Now they are just trying to spin the whole thing and try to gain something from it, ¿you can't win by their rules?, pullout and at least gain some credit in the West.
The Chinese goverment is full of shit, but the fact is that the world has become so dependant on China that there is very little that anyone can do against them, and the Chinese themselves seem to care very little about the wrong doings of their goverment as long as they have a good economy.
Although, to be fair, that is probably more of a general human characteristic than a Chinese one.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues.
Well i read lot of different newspapers, ranging from the extreme left to the right and none are praising China. But eh you are right i'm sure that there is a giant conspiracy against this wonderful country. I mean those journalists MUST be spies or Chinese haters obviously. They are brain washing us of course.
There is a flood of negativity towards China in media. It's too independent and strong right now politically and it's potential is enormous. It's only obvious than it needs to be destabilized from a "zionist" pov. Simple logic.
Also the video that i linked to earlier got removed... too bad, it was short, informative and good. Hard to grasp the content for a casual forum reader when it's coming from Duke, but this topic has nothing to do with racism. The leader of Iran actually talked about it in the anti-racism context in his famous speech.
rofl you are back to the david duke shit.
Im curious, since you are russian, how do you feel about the parallels between whats going on in Israel as opposed to Russia and Chechnya ?
No no, don't derail into that. I'd like to talk about Chechnya and parallels, but not here.
Speaking on topic, It's interesting what the chinese found in the "human rights activists" accounts they "almost" hacked and in other hack attempts. It has to be a big deal If it really took place, the response is serious.
On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote: I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
Many times publicity will get you farther than $$ itself.
On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote: I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
Many times publicity will get you farther than $$ itself.
After they are banned everyone will suddenly say how google was better; take away something from the people and they will go crazy about it. I never tested the chinese search engines, but I assume that google is better.
Please remember one thing however - google is really, really powerful. Let's imagine that there is some Chinese analyst doing some important search for an article. He uses google. Google identifies him via ip. All his actions are logged (to see "what he knows"). In addition he can be provided with a modified list of websites (e.g. only supporting one cause; or the critical infromation can be blocked). Google can be very, very evil too... because it is working for the US government. There should be alternatives. Unfortunately they seem to suck very badly (yes, IM talking about bing, netsprint etc). Most of them are american.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
All governments are evil. It's kind of a moot point. The US is pretty naive though.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues.
Well i read lot of different newspapers, ranging from the extreme left to the right and none are praising China. But eh you are right i'm sure that there is a giant conspiracy against this wonderful country. I mean those journalists MUST be spies or Chinese haters obviously. They are brain washing us of course.
There is a flood of negativity towards China in media. It's too independent and strong right now politically and it's potential is enormous. It's only obvious than it needs to be destabilized from a "zionist" pov. Simple logic.
Also the video that i linked to earlier got removed... too bad, it was short, informative and good. Hard to grasp the content for a casual forum reader when it's coming from Duke, but this topic has nothing to do with racism. The leader of Iran actually talked about it in the anti-racism context in his famous speech.
You're conflating things and using words with bad connotations. Reference Chomsky if you want to find a public figure who agrees with you who is NOT batshit insane. He's one of the foremost critics of the US foreign policy in relation to Israel about these things. And yes, the whole "wiped from the face of the earth" quote of Ahmadinejad is, from everything I've read, a mistranslation. Israel does terrible things and the US supports them in committing terrible atrocities. However, palestinians commit their own atrocious acts and it makes it harder to have a rational conversation - not that I blame them. Non-violence from the palestinians has never achieved anything.
I fail to see how any of this relates to china, though. Unless you're just using it as an example of the US' foreign policy.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
The Chinese government is very shotsighted! What causes massive demonstrations crime, outrage etc is not the freedom of imformation but the long-term fooling people. Economic development is very important to us indeed. But that costs a lot! The enviorment is getting worse. And that will take more time to heel it. Vast economic inequality is growing faster and faster... If we pay too much attention to short-term stability and economics, we will have no future. To this thing between Google and China, the politicians are telling lies. It's not Google's fault at all.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
don't masquerade questions as examples to the contrary. just ask.
the simple answer is India has a completely different political atmosphere and although it has huge growth potential, it's not a contender for the geopolitical center of the world.
Can you explain how China is more a contender than India for the geopolitical center of the world ?
Come on Boblion, I gave you more credit than to ask such a stupid question. Also, let's face it, if you scan the range of your posts on any topics regarding China, you have your own personal biases on the matter. Which is fine, it's a forum for opinion but to act randomly facetious and condescending is a little low for you since you seem to be an intelligent fellow capable of debate. As for praise for China on this issue, yes there's little praise for China obviously because it's business not politics. The shares of google speak for itself on what most people actually think of the decision.
On January 14 2010 09:50 Durak wrote: I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
The problem with this is that it's rooted in the assumption that rational and intelligent opinions will win out. Rationality and intelligence, however you slice it though, are not common traits throughout the human race. While information and innovation can be great forces for good in the hands of a reasonable human being, they can be dangerous and extremely destabilizing in the hands of unreasonable and irrational people. In a country as large as China, you cannot hope that the reasonable opinions will win out.
it'll be sad to disconnect China from the rest of the world via google :/ That and wiki and so many other things, youtube, facebook. ALl these awesome ways to learn english and other cultures. It's dissapointing
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information. I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this. trust me when i say he and his friends are some of the brighter people in his school. chinese people's minds are empty like flowerpots. again, i cannot stress how different white people's perception and knowledge of china is from the truth. you give them way too much credit and benefit of the doubt that you cannot imagine what the result would be if the censorship of internet and media was removed.
and sorry india isnt even on the same level as china so no india is not a contender with china.
and to the other guy, no i firmly believe that economic development is the most important thing both for establishing china as the next global superpower for political leverage, trade etc and also for the development of quality of life. When quality of life is raised, along with it comes education, and then slowly the majority of people will be ready for free information. also, if the economy is going smoothly then everyone has money and can eat, thus everyone is happy and won't really cause problems. trust me when i say most people know that the news they watch on tv and hear on the radio is bullshit, but they dont really care because they have money. discussion about politics happen everywhere in bars, restaurants, amongst friends etc, just that the material isn't allowed to be published.
On January 14 2010 16:19 evanthebouncy! wrote: it'll be sad to disconnect China from the rest of the world via google :/ That and wiki and so many other things, youtube, facebook. ALl these awesome ways to learn english and other cultures. It's dissapointing
yea i know, well i guess that will come later. chinese people are kinda like german and french now in that they are in their own bubble and dont really care for the english speaking world except for american action movies and engrish tshirts
chinese people have their own facebook (xiaonei), msn (QQ), youtube (youkou, tudou), ebay (taobao) and even their own iccup lol (forgot the name).
the google of china is baidu, period. nearly everyone uses it. and then google wants some of that action but got owned. from what i've heard the most ppl use google.cn for is the music downloads. (google.cn has a huge section of legal music, but mostly chinese pop).
On January 14 2010 17:09 fearus wrote: chinese ppl living/born overseas like to think they are some kind of 'superior' chinese
looking back at china all high and mighty in their western countries...
thinking every1 in china is kept in a cage.. .. ironic they fail to see they are looking out as much as the people in china are looking in...
im sorry was that directed at me? if it was then you misunderstood. i was pointing out why freedom of internet information would be a really bad idea and that china is not ready for that. i do realize that i am very very lucky to have received an international education and no way look down on my local chinese friends. if you interpreted my post that way then you've misunderstood.
On January 14 2010 17:09 fearus wrote: chinese ppl living/born overseas like to think they are some kind of 'superior' chinese
looking back at china all high and mighty in their western countries...
thinking every1 in china is kept in a cage.. .. ironic they fail to see they are looking out as much as the people in china are looking in...
im sorry was that directed at me? if it was then you misunderstood. i was pointing out why freedom of internet information would be a really bad idea and that china is not ready for that. i do realize that i am very very lucky to have received an international education and no way look down on my local chinese friends. if you interpreted my post that way then you've misunderstood.
But then how else can we interpret your post?
All your posts in this thread were, in a gist, that Chinese people are dumb, Chinese people are idiotic, Chinese people are empty-headed selfish bastards that will stab you in the back, they will steal without a thought and kill you if they can get away with it etc etc
Although I hate the rampant Nationalism apparent among some Chinese here in TL, it's just as distasteful to see you completely demean the entire billions of Chinese so thoroughly - especially when you yourself claim to be Chinese.
Oh man, screw those Chinese people, they suck so baaaaad.... >.> <.< <=== Chinese /sarcasm end Srsly tho, this is interesting. I really doubt google will go to such lengths as pulling out of China. I mean, atleast half of China should (in theory) use google. That's still ALOT of people, and ALOT of people who steal you intellectual property but still give you money is better then no people giving you money....From a business standpoint, anyways.
I can't understand all of this Google hate. They've been operating YouTube at what from all accounts I've seen is a major loss. On top of that, if you've ever watched some of their "@ Google" presentations they are very intellectually stimulating and of profound importance for the future of technology. Since when has Google been even remotely concerned with the typical PR bullshit we see from typical American businesses? Am I the only that took from that press release that Google all but implicated the Chinese government as a conspirator in those cyber attacks?
Whether the market share is 20% or 30% or 90% is almost negligible, I simply can't see money being the point here. It's a fucking disgrace to me that a business objecting to subservience of imposed immorality in our culture is immediately taken as a political gambit. The only valid concern I've seen is that if they had an issue with it, why were they there in the first place? First of all, they had no influence to prompt change without a significant market share, and second of all, is it better to do the right thing late than to never do it at all?
On the other hand, I'm not sure if I agree that freedom of information in China is the right thing or is even a significant thing at this point in time. The United States has had freedom of information forever and yet something like 75% of the population can't even locate a country we're at war with on a map. Are there issues with censorship in China noteworthy in contrast to ideal society, of course, but the Chinese government certainly thinks that censorship at this point is the best course of action, and who are any of us to act as if our opinions are even remotely informed if not flat out ignorant?
Finally, since signs point to Google as a company simply standing up for "what it believes is right," it's pathetic that the discussion here and elsewhere is more focused on whether this was some sort public relations strategy, rather instead about whether or not Google pulling out would be the right thing.
On January 14 2010 17:09 fearus wrote: chinese ppl living/born overseas like to think they are some kind of 'superior' chinese
looking back at china all high and mighty in their western countries...
thinking every1 in china is kept in a cage.. .. ironic they fail to see they are looking out as much as the people in china are looking in...
im sorry was that directed at me? if it was then you misunderstood. i was pointing out why freedom of internet information would be a really bad idea and that china is not ready for that. i do realize that i am very very lucky to have received an international education and no way look down on my local chinese friends. if you interpreted my post that way then you've misunderstood.
But then how else can we interpret your post?
All your posts in this thread were, in a gist, that Chinese people are dumb, Chinese people are idiotic, Chinese people are empty-headed selfish bastards that will stab you in the back, they will steal without a thought and kill you if they can get away with it etc etc
Although I hate the rampant Nationalism apparent among some Chinese here in TL, it's just as distasteful to see you completely demean the entire billions of Chinese so thoroughly - especially when you yourself claim to be Chinese.
true, but im pointing out that china is not ready for free internet. people are like that and it's a cold hard fact. why they are like that is a very long story but mostly because of china's long and chaotic history with incompetent leaders and getting invaded by england, spain, italy, japan etc.
the truth is this. im not blaming, im explaining. i dont want to see china like this either but releasing free internet is not the answer. lets just make that point clear.
On January 14 2010 16:19 evanthebouncy! wrote: it'll be sad to disconnect China from the rest of the world via google :/ That and wiki and so many other things, youtube, facebook. ALl these awesome ways to learn english and other cultures. It's dissapointing
yea i know, well i guess that will come later. chinese people are kinda like german and french now in that they are in their own bubble and dont really care for the english speaking world except for american action movies and engrish tshirts
WTF?
I don't exactly know about the French, they seem to have problems/no desire to speak english ^^. But saying the Germans live in their own bubble is pretty hilarious.
On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote: I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
Many times publicity will get you farther than $$ itself.
After they are banned everyone will suddenly say how google was better; take away something from the people and they will go crazy about it. I never tested the chinese search engines, but I assume that google is better.
Please remember one thing however - google is really, really powerful. Let's imagine that there is some Chinese analyst doing some important search for an article. He uses google. Google identifies him via ip. All his actions are logged (to see "what he knows"). In addition he can be provided with a modified list of websites (e.g. only supporting one cause; or the critical infromation can be blocked). Google can be very, very evil too... because it is working for the US government. There should be alternatives. Unfortunately they seem to suck very badly (yes, IM talking about bing, netsprint etc). Most of them are american.
Not really. Google's market share in china right now is approximated 32% while Baidu.com has 60%.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information. I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this. trust me when i say he and his friends are some of the brighter people in his school. chinese people's minds are empty like flowerpots. again, i cannot stress how different white people's perception and knowledge of china is from the truth. you give them way too much credit and benefit of the doubt that you cannot imagine what the result would be if the censorship of internet and media was removed.
I know you mean well, and want to show how dumb Chinese people are. But calling your friends dumb for thinking Harry Potter and Twilight are high quality movies makes no fucking sense. Harry Potter and Twilight are high quality movies that have had high success internationally. Liking these movies doesn't make these kids "empty like flower pots," it makes them normal. This also does nothing to support your point that the Chinese people are not ready for the internet and only strengthens the idea that Chinese people want foreign, American content.
On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote: yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger.
lol paranoia much ?
Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ?
You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues.
Well i read lot of different newspapers, ranging from the extreme left to the right and none are praising China. But eh you are right i'm sure that there is a giant conspiracy against this wonderful country. I mean those journalists MUST be spies or Chinese haters obviously. They are brain washing us of course.
Just because media is often negative towards China doesn't mean there is a "giant conspiracy" against it. You're just taking my arguments and making them more extreme to your advantage...
And yeah I also read a lot of bullshit in Swedish newspapers, and I don't think there's a very big difference between yours and mine.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information. I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this. trust me when i say he and his friends are some of the brighter people in his school. chinese people's minds are empty like flowerpots. again, i cannot stress how different white people's perception and knowledge of china is from the truth. you give them way too much credit and benefit of the doubt that you cannot imagine what the result would be if the censorship of internet and media was removed.
and sorry india isnt even on the same level as china so no india is not a contender with china.
and to the other guy, no i firmly believe that economic development is the most important thing both for establishing china as the next global superpower for political leverage, trade etc and also for the development of quality of life. When quality of life is raised, along with it comes education, and then slowly the majority of people will be ready for free information. also, if the economy is going smoothly then everyone has money and can eat, thus everyone is happy and won't really cause problems. trust me when i say most people know that the news they watch on tv and hear on the radio is bullshit, but they dont really care because they have money. discussion about politics happen everywhere in bars, restaurants, amongst friends etc, just that the material isn't allowed to be published.
People like you are fucking terrifying. If you allow free flow of information, people eventually become better for it. It is not some kind of overnight magical transformation. I can't believe people use the lack of intelligence of a group as an excuse for oppression.
On January 14 2010 22:49 Hawk wrote: People like you are fucking terrifying. If you allow free flow of information, people eventually become better for it. It is not some kind of overnight magical transformation. I can't believe people use the lack of intelligence of a group as an excuse for oppression.
Yes, eventually.
Can the world handle the immediate destabilization that could occur in China, for the sake of eventual benefit?
On January 14 2010 22:49 Hawk wrote: People like you are fucking terrifying. If you allow free flow of information, people eventually become better for it. It is not some kind of overnight magical transformation. I can't believe people use the lack of intelligence of a group as an excuse for oppression.
Yes, eventually.
Can the world handle the immediate destabilization that could occur in China, for the sake of eventual benefit?
Absolutely. What exactly do you think will be so grave about the change? People might *gasp* question what the fuck their leaders have been doing for the last 50 or 100 years? Forcefully throw their government out? None of this spells impending disaster for the world.
On January 14 2010 23:19 Hawk wrote: Absolutely. What exactly do you think will be so grave about the change? People might *gasp* question what the fuck their leaders have been doing for the last 50 or 100 years? Forcefully throw their government out? None of this spells impending disaster for the world.
The total collapse of the government in the country with the world's 2nd-3rd highest GDP doesn't trouble you in the least? You don't think that could have huge economic ramifications globally at all?
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information. I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this.
LOL let me get this straight. 1 billion Chinese people shouldnt be given free information because they are too stupid. And your evidence is your cousins friends who all think twilight is a good movie. Speaking of people with minds like a flower pot :p
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information. I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this.
LOL let me get this straight. 1 billion Chinese people shouldnt be given free information because they are too stupid. And your evidence is your cousins friends who all think twilight is a good movie. Thats rich!
Go back 2 pages and read Pyrogenetix's longer assessment of why China isn't ready for freedom of information. The out-of-context passage you took was in response specifically to Durak's thoughts that freedom of information would produce innovation and invention in such a way that outweighs the more subversive uses towards destabilization and revolution. In a culture that doesn't cultivate ideas of entrepreneurship and free-thinking as much as the United States, this is not as likely of an outcome.
On January 14 2010 23:19 Hawk wrote: Absolutely. What exactly do you think will be so grave about the change? People might *gasp* question what the fuck their leaders have been doing for the last 50 or 100 years? Forcefully throw their government out? None of this spells impending disaster for the world.
The total collapse of the government in the country with the world's 2nd-3rd highest GDP doesn't trouble you in the least? You don't think that could have huge economic ramifications globally at all?
Soviet Russia was #2 in the world, and less than ten years later, most of those ex-USSR countries saw an improvement in their GDP. The world didn't end. The world economy didn't come to a crashing halt. People got their freedom (at least in formally escaping the government, since Russian influence is still seen all over) and things kept on chugging right along.
The most astonishing feat Chinas government has achieved is to make its citizens believe that it's for their best to live in a dictatorship whiteout a way to influence the political course of their country.
On January 14 2010 23:39 Hawk wrote: Soviet Russia was #2 in the world, and less than ten years later, most of those ex-USSR countries saw an improvement in their GDP. The world didn't end. The world economy didn't come to a crashing halt. People got their freedom (at least in formally escaping the government, since Russian influence is still seen all over) and things kept on chugging right along.
That's not really an apt comparison seeing as the economic climate of the Cold War meant that global trade relations with Soviet Russia could not be nearly as branching, and widespread as trade relations with China are now. Arguably political and economic collapse in China would have far more widespread effects now, given their far more diverse trade interests.
I'd also discuss the fact that Russia underwent near-Depression (with a capital D) levels of economic decay in the 1990s, and that arguably the upper echelons of society are seeing most (if not all--by some measures such as average life expectancy, things are worse than pre-1990 levels) of the benefits of recovery, with a larger income disparity than ever, but I'm no expert on the subject, and I'll leave it to someone else.
On January 14 2010 23:19 Hawk wrote: Absolutely. What exactly do you think will be so grave about the change? People might *gasp* question what the fuck their leaders have been doing for the last 50 or 100 years? Forcefully throw their government out? None of this spells impending disaster for the world.
The total collapse of the government in the country with the world's 2nd-3rd highest GDP doesn't trouble you in the least? You don't think that could have huge economic ramifications globally at all?
Soviet Russia was #2 in the world, and less than ten years later, most of those ex-USSR countries saw an improvement in their GDP. The world didn't end. The world economy didn't come to a crashing halt. People got their freedom (at least in formally escaping the government, since Russian influence is still seen all over) and things kept on chugging right along.
While I don't believe for a second the world's economy would collapse as soon as China is allowed to use Facebook you can't possibly compare that to Soviet Russia. In terms of GDP Russia was behind countries like Japan, Germany, France etc (the former G7). But, more importantly, it was not at all as woven into the global economy as China is now. The world's economy could do just fine without Soviet Russia but would indeed break down without China.
Why do people insist that they know what's best for a country that they don't understand...
Can somebody explain to me why their lives are necessarily better than a Chinese citizen's?
Freedom of press? Freedom of speech? How many of you have ever published controversial political statements? Fact is, most people don't care that much about politics. They're not going to take you out back and shoot you if you crack a joke about the government. That you can make such statements is nice, but it's also something that the vast majority of the population take for granted. I like the concept of freedom of speech and freedom of press, but it really doesn't really play out much in my day-to-day life.
It'd be nice if the Chinese had more freedoms, but it's their government, and they run the country how they see fit. The thing is, their system works for the most part. The problem is that western media likes to paint this image of a China full of oppressed citizens living miserable lives just waiting for a chance to revolt, when in reality most people are pretty content with how things are going.
I was just watching some chinese commentary on the issue on pheonix news, it is obviously biased but offer an interesting side of the story. They seem to think that google's action merely gives them a more shareholder-friendly reason to eventually exit the chinese market, if it ever happens. Of course they aren't doing as well as other local search engines, so it sounds a lot better to go down swinging the flags of human rights, rather than admitting business defeat. I think there's some truth to that. They also label the chinese supporter of google's actions of being somewhat juvenile in not seeing the business side of it all.
The commentators do recognise that the chinese government censor internet content (to filter out bad things like porn, or any anti-govt inflammatory junk), and they agree that it is a good thing(!). But they think google isn't going about their aims in the right way. Instead of quietly negotiate something with the government and hope for a compromise, they chose to publicise the whole thing and essentially giving china the ultimatum. Well clearly the chinese goverment isn't going to budge against a corporation, (they wouldn't even budge against superpowers these days), it seems inevitable that google will have to exit the market, if they do follow up with their claims.
Oh yeah of course there was no mention of hacking of any kind anywhere.
I think it's safe to say we have no fucking clue what will happen when Chinese politics are liberalized. It's likely to happen within 20 or 30 years, as cases like this pop up and the economy begins to need it (in conjunction with that middle class demanding it.) There's simply nothing to compare the Chinese situation to; it's never been tested. Furthermore, there's so many variables with possible disastrous implications (environmental, aging population, etc.) that will probably arise in 10-20 years and we don't know how the country/ will react to them.
I do think pyrogenetix and other Chinese expatriates totally underestimate the moral condition of the Chinese people. The "people aren't ready for it" excuse has been used for 90 years since Sun Yatsen, but the difference between China and many of the countries that really weren't ready for democracy is that China already has the economic base and plenty of FDI to support itself. You obviously shouldn't force democratizing, but trying to stifle it is even worse and eventually doomed to failure.
I think having a democracy is overrated anyway. Even the United States didn't allow for true democracy to arise in Iraq and Afghanistan. When they were installed, the Hamid Karzai's government was selected, not elected. Even in the United States, Bush supported big business and didn't even look at the people, except during elections. The amount of cronyism (well I guess it's not really cronyism since they were basically awarding contracts to themselves), the expansion of the police state, especially in the areas of "homeland security", which only served to enrich people who used to serve in government along with the ridiculous string-free bailouts by the Obama administration show that the people in power only care about the economic well-being of the corporations, not the people. The liberalization of Chinese politics wouldn't necessarily be a good thing.
Eh threads on China inevitably devolves into people who's never been to the area, nor know of the situation criticizing people who actually live there being close minded and uninformed about their lives.
PS. Hawk, I agree that freedom of information is a benefit to the population however, I'm not sure I agree that Russians would find the collapse of the Soviet Union "a good thing". Also, federal control does have it's benefits for a country when it comes to developing infrastructure. Many many countries proceed through the same steps including the US where our "toughest presidents" also happen to be the ones we remember. (Take Jackson, Lincoln, etc who was ALL about Federal control over state freedoms)
On November 11 1947 Winston Churchill wrote: No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information. I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this. trust me when i say he and his friends are some of the brighter people in his school. chinese people's minds are empty like flowerpots. again, i cannot stress how different white people's perception and knowledge of china is from the truth. you give them way too much credit and benefit of the doubt that you cannot imagine what the result would be if the censorship of internet and media was removed.
and sorry india isnt even on the same level as china so no india is not a contender with china.
and to the other guy, no i firmly believe that economic development is the most important thing both for establishing china as the next global superpower for political leverage, trade etc and also for the development of quality of life. When quality of life is raised, along with it comes education, and then slowly the majority of people will be ready for free information. also, if the economy is going smoothly then everyone has money and can eat, thus everyone is happy and won't really cause problems. trust me when i say most people know that the news they watch on tv and hear on the radio is bullshit, but they dont really care because they have money. discussion about politics happen everywhere in bars, restaurants, amongst friends etc, just that the material isn't allowed to be published.
People like you are fucking terrifying. If you allow free flow of information, people eventually become better for it. It is not some kind of overnight magical transformation. I can't believe people use the lack of intelligence of a group as an excuse for oppression.
The funny thing is that it is the main argument of American Chinese kids and international Chinese students... who are enjoying the freedom of information and expression in Western countries. They are basicly saying that what is good for them isn't for the others Chinese. Love hypocrisy <3
On January 15 2010 00:47 Boblion wrote: The funny thing is that it is the main argument of American Chinese kids and international Chinese students... who are enjoying the freedom of information and expression in Western countries. They are basicly saying that what is good for them isn't for the others Chinese. Love hypocrisy <3
It's not hypocritical at all. There's no hypocrisy in thinking that Western ideas without exposure to Western values and culture is dangerous, particularly since what separates those people from their counterparts is their exposure to Western values and culture.
It might not be correct, but it's certainly not hypocritical.
On November 11 1947 Winston Churchill wrote: No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
QFT
Do explain how this vast over-generalization applies to this specific context.
On November 11 1947 Winston Churchill wrote: No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
QFT
Do explain how this vast over-generalization applies to this specific context.
Can't I just hold that truth to be self-evident? :p
And it was in responce to ghostwriter saying democracy is overrated.
On January 15 2010 00:39 KissBlade wrote: Eh threads on China inevitably devolves into people who's never been to the area, nor know of the situation criticizing people who actually live there being close minded and uninformed about their lives.
PS. Hawk, I agree that freedom of information is a benefit to the population however, I'm not sure I agree that Russians would find the collapse of the Soviet Union "a good thing". Also, federal control does have it's benefits for a country when it comes to developing infrastructure. Many many countries proceed through the same steps including the US where our "toughest presidents" also happen to be the ones we remember. (Take Jackson, Lincoln, etc who was ALL about Federal control over state freedoms)
Russian GDP is currently 6th. It's recovered quite well after the expected economic collapse due to the dissolvement of the USSR. Plus, it can easily be argued that the economic disaster there was a result of the HUGE spending on the military cuz of the cold war more than the change of government. Either way, that was expected, and plenty of people benefit from it now... and a lot of those who don't consider it a good thing are proud Russians who are upset that they essentially lost a power war and a ton of land, not neccessarily the change of government itself. Watch a Russian and a Ukrainian (or any other former satellite country) chat about politics. it's messy.
And there's a HUGE difference between the federal control of China and Lincoln or other strong US presidents....that's not even close.
On January 15 2010 01:04 emucxg wrote: srsly why western ppl are so worried about chinese ppl = =
Because China is poised to be the next big thing. Many analysts see China as a threat to the hegemony of the United States and their rapidly growing economy, in spite of the global recession, makes them a force to be reckoned with. China also has an enormous population. International Relations is a zero sum game, any increase in one country's power is necessarily preceded by the decline of another.
I would like to point out two distinguishing features of the Chinese ethical system. It is very difficult to say whether there is quantitatively more virtue or vice in the Chinese soul than elsewhere, but it is indisputable that the ethical system entrenched in most Chinamen is qualitatively different from our own.
In the first place, Chinese ethics are non-intellectual. It undergoes few of the rational, intuitive processes which gives men in the West the capacity for moral self-determination. The Chinese system is highly dependent on enviornmental factors. If a Chinaman reveres his elders, it is because his father had done so before him, and for no other reason. From a very young age, the Chinese child is versed in a constellation of arbitrary moral dictums which are likely to last his lifetime without ever being substantially revised. He knows what is right and wrong, but he is never curious as to why. The grouping of all humanity under some equal dignity like "human rights" is far too abstract and intellectualized a concept for the average Chinaman to heed.
Secondly, from the Chinese perspective, the main problem of public life is not lack of freedom, but lack of order. Because of the disorder perpetually plaguing Chinese society, there are insufficient deterrents to bad behaviour, and insufficient incentives for good behaviour. While the average Chinaman may be no worse morally than his Western counterpart, the capacity for malicious individuals to wreak unimpeded mischief is incomparably greater in China. The clannishness of Chinese society means that social distinction is only dependent on proper behaviour to a small degree, while the conduct of local governments and local justice can often be described as feudal nepotism. Thus the central government in China is still seen by the majority of the country as a court of last appeal, the only rational actor capable of delivering justice in a profoundly irrational land.
Therefore we can surmise, that the behaviour of the Chinese government, for all its heavy-handedness, is more or less in line with the ultimate wishes and inclinations of the majority of the Chinese people. Its behaviour more or less reflects certain native habits of thought and prejudices, while its deficiencies, so clear and damning to its foreign critics, more or less reflect the qualities of the Chinese people at large.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
says the russian guy!!
like that if you never had innocent killing in Russia and your country doesn't sell armament and finance terrorists countries like Syria, Iran, afghanistan, N Korea, etc. and your president respect his opponents, right?
my family had to move away from Russia or they would be killed there, moved to poland and then to brazil, where they are respected, there is no racism, intolerance, etc....
USA spreads democracy, removing those crazy dictators who only leads their countries to wars and genocide.
I hope they do the same with N. Korea and Iran, before they start sending nuclear bombs around.
don't want to see Japan, S. Korea or Israel destroyed... or even European countries, since Iran is doing what they can to have missiles able to reach Europe.
I know this thread is only informative about google and china, but I couldn't see his post and be quiet...
edit: Im not saying that russian, n. korean or iranians are bad people, but their governants are...
LOL I just saw this post and wanted to publicly laugh at the ignorance shown by this poster. The United States does not do anything for the sake of spreading democracy. Its actions are merely a product of its desire to increase profits. And no one finances more "terrorist countries" or sells more armaments than the United States.
Also, I enjoy Harry Potter. The Order of the Phoenix was bad, but Half Blood Prince was pretty darn good in my opinion. Liking certain movies doesn't mean your friends are dumb. Plenty of people in America like Twilight, including pretty much every female I know.
On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote: Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country.
Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
says the russian guy!!
like that if you never had innocent killing in Russia and your country doesn't sell armament and finance terrorists countries like Syria, Iran, afghanistan, N Korea, etc. and your president respect his opponents, right?
my family had to move away from Russia or they would be killed there, moved to poland and then to brazil, where they are respected, there is no racism, intolerance, etc....
USA spreads democracy, removing those crazy dictators who only leads their countries to wars and genocide.
I hope they do the same with N. Korea and Iran, before they start sending nuclear bombs around.
don't want to see Japan, S. Korea or Israel destroyed... or even European countries, since Iran is doing what they can to have missiles able to reach Europe.
I know this thread is only informative about google and china, but I couldn't see his post and be quiet...
edit: Im not saying that russian, n. korean or iranians are bad people, but their governants are...
The US are the ones who usually puts those dictators in power in the first place ... Hell, for those who didn't know, the US are the ones who put Saddam in power. If you actually did some research, you'll know the US does quite a few under the table situations where they would depose a ruler and put in a new (Crappier) one who would be amenable to US demands. However, on the other hand, consider that as an American citizen, you reap the benefits of those actions.
On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote: If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
This.
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information. I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this. trust me when i say he and his friends are some of the brighter people in his school. chinese people's minds are empty like flowerpots. again, i cannot stress how different white people's perception and knowledge of china is from the truth. you give them way too much credit and benefit of the doubt that you cannot imagine what the result would be if the censorship of internet and media was removed.
and sorry india isnt even on the same level as china so no india is not a contender with china.
and to the other guy, no i firmly believe that economic development is the most important thing both for establishing china as the next global superpower for political leverage, trade etc and also for the development of quality of life. When quality of life is raised, along with it comes education, and then slowly the majority of people will be ready for free information. also, if the economy is going smoothly then everyone has money and can eat, thus everyone is happy and won't really cause problems. trust me when i say most people know that the news they watch on tv and hear on the radio is bullshit, but they dont really care because they have money. discussion about politics happen everywhere in bars, restaurants, amongst friends etc, just that the material isn't allowed to be published.
People like you are fucking terrifying. If you allow free flow of information, people eventually become better for it. It is not some kind of overnight magical transformation. I can't believe people use the lack of intelligence of a group as an excuse for oppression.
The funny thing is that it is the main argument of American Chinese kids and international Chinese students... who are enjoying the freedom of information and expression in Western countries. They are basicly saying that what is good for them isn't for the others Chinese. Love hypocrisy <3
comparing the education I received to the education of an average local Chinese school student is ridiculous and further cements my belief that you really don't know what you're talking about.
The help and guidance from my teachers and parents, the environment and conditions under which the information was presented to me is very different. Simply saying that to successfully educate a child to be creative, multilingual, critical thinking etc is to expose him to a ton of unfiltered information? They would be bombarded with all sorts of things, off the top of my head pornography, anti government propaganda and cults like fa lun gong (if anyone says fa lun gong is not that bad im going to facepalm.jpg) and without the proper guidance of adults or smarter people this is of course bad.
Imagine in the future you get married and have your own child. You would not expose him to violent movies like Pulp Fiction etc that kind of stuff at the age of 10. When he gets older and can make his own judgment that a movie is fake etc, then you would show it to him. And even if he sees a movie and asks you about it you would be able to give him a very good explanation of what he is seeing and tell him to not take it seriously. Simply letting him run free at the DVD store watching any movie he fancies and then hoping that someday he makes the connection that some movies are good, some are bad, some are just pure fiction etc, and not start making the wrong kind of friends that go around violating parks at night, start drinking, flunk school etc. No you wouldn't risk that because you know what is good for him and what he should be doing. He can have his freedom later.
I know the above analogy is perhaps a little exaggerated but it's the best I can come up with right now. I'm fucking tired and going off to bed. I guess perhaps only time will tell who was right and who wasn't, but seriously, I look at China's history and how far China has come the last one hundred years... not many nations of the world progressed this much in such a short time period. Sacrifices have been made yes of course, but at least now people don't have to worry about which child in the family they should sell to put more food on the table. My parents lived through some rough times and their parents even rougher times. They and everyone around us acknowledge the sacrifices the government made but ultimately it really turned out for the greater common good.
On January 14 2010 23:42 Velr wrote: The most astonishing feat Chinas government has achieved is to make its citizens believe that it's for their best to live in a dictatorship whiteout a way to influence the political course of their country.
On January 14 2010 23:42 Velr wrote: The most astonishing feat Chinas government has achieved is to make its citizens believe that it's for their best to live in a dictatorship whiteout a way to influence the political course of their country.
This is so funny that I find it hard to believe that it is being said with any seriousness. It's completely wrong that people don't have any influence. And the dictatorship is far from "an astonishing" feat. The real astonishment is that China has gotten so much more wealthy in such a short amount of time, but wealthy dictatorships aren't exactly unprecedented or astonishing either.
Anyhow what the Chinese people have is pretty good. They have all the economic freedoms that they could really hope for. They don't have man civil freedoms. Finally the political freedoms are very restricted, but usually political freedom means the power to vote and take away economic or civil freedoms from others.
Based on that idea, it's actually better that the Chinese government is seen as a bunch of semi-legitimate governing body repressing the population rather than a fully legitimate democracy repressing its people like many of the elected dictators of the European or South American history.
On January 14 2010 23:42 Velr wrote: The most astonishing feat Chinas government has achieved is to make its citizens believe that it's for their best to live in a dictatorship whiteout a way to influence the political course of their country.
lolol This is hilarious. Unless someone on this forums is part of the Bilderberg group or something, nothing we do or say will have any kind of impact on the political courses of our respective countries. The thing about democracies is that they tell you in school that you are free and are able to choose. But a decision between two or three candidates that do not differ greatly is not a freely made decision at all. In a dictatorship, they don't lie to you and give you false hope.
"Spreading freedom" LOL Jesus Christ, who would believe that kind of garbage.
People only have influence when they're in a large group of like-minded people. Even then, they only have as much power as the ruling organization allows them to have. I thought that the situation in China sucked. I thought that it was good for businesses and stuff, but that there are still millions of people living in poverty and that the dichotomy between rich and poor was growing.
I think that if a government has the support of the vast majority of people without having to pull a North Korea then there's no reason for outsiders to call for a revolutionary change to that system... and it seems like the Chinese government has the support of its citizens.
Give China sometime guys...I physically feel sick at some of the hate and negatively towards China.
For 5 thousand years it has been ruled under one emperor (at a time), and suddenly you want China to be democratic, to have free speech, have everything "the west" has? As a Chinese (Not chinaman, Moltke) who immigrated to Canada 14 years ago, I honestly believe that China will not change. In fact, as an individual, submitting to another culture feels like I was brought up the wrong way and as if I am an alien (and still does), even though I've been subject to Canadian culture (if there is any...poutine? lol cmon) for 14 years. I speak for myself by the way, I don't speak on behalf of any country with more than 8 people (including Canada).
I think a lot of your believes comes from how you are brought up. If China was "in control" (instead of the west), then the scenario would be that Chinese people would want to convert your western believes of free speech and all that noodles into Chinese believes. Would you want that? Obviously not, seeing how most people are against how the Chinese are operating. Likewise for Chinese people, when western cultures try to change the Chinese people, how do you think they will respond? Seriously just leave them alone. Europeans learned to find their way into fighting for their own freedom, why don't you just let the Chinese do it for themselves? Oh sorry, we are intellectually unequal to the western world, and therefore we cannot fight for ourselves...
The problem with Chinese government is not that it is a democracy but it's completely disregard for Law and constitution which they themselves wrote.
Freedom of speech and rally is supposed to guaranteed as well as forming your own political party. Such rights were clearly written on the constitution but were never implemented.
How ironic is it to read one thing but expect another? The earlier revolutionaries and communists were prosecuted for the same reasons.
I support Google if their motive was the same as their motto.
On January 15 2010 06:00 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote: Give China sometime guys...I physically feel sick at some of the hate and negatively towards China.
For 5 thousand years it has been ruled under one emperor (at a time), and suddenly you want China to be democratic, to have free speech, have everything "the west" has? As a Chinese (Not chinaman, Moltke) who immigrated to Canada 14 years ago, I honestly believe that China will not change. In fact, as an individual, submitting to another culture feels like I was brought up the wrong way and as if I am an alien (and still does), even though I've been subject to Canadian culture (if there is any...poutine? lol cmon) for 14 years. I speak for myself by the way, I don't speak on behalf of any country with more than 8 people (including Canada).
I think a lot of your believes comes from how you are brought up. If China was "in control" (instead of the west), then the scenario would be that Chinese people would want to convert your western believes of free speech and all that noodles into Chinese believes. Would you want that? Obviously not, seeing how most people are against how the Chinese are operating. Likewise for Chinese people, when western cultures try to change the Chinese people, how do you think they will respond? Seriously just leave them alone. Europeans learned to find their way into fighting for their own freedom, why don't you just let the Chinese do it for themselves? Oh sorry, we are intellectually unequal to the western world, and therefore we cannot fight for ourselves...
So what exactly has changed? The emperors restricted trade and put people in different social classes based on the fact that the populace is dumb and can not be trusted with knowledge, instead he relies on the intellectuals to administrate.
fast forward to now, same problem, the government is trying to suppress knowledge arguing that the populace are not ready.
People needs to understand this. We Chinese spend the last thousands of years perfecting our states craft, we made an art out of how to control a large population. Maintaining order is their game.
Chinese dynasties only collapse when external changes cause sit to collapse, such as natural disasters, foreign invasion etc...
On January 15 2010 06:00 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote: Give China sometime guys...I physically feel sick at some of the hate and negatively towards China.
For 5 thousand years it has been ruled under one emperor (at a time), and suddenly you want China to be democratic, to have free speech, have everything "the west" has? As a Chinese (Not chinaman, Moltke) who immigrated to Canada 14 years ago, I honestly believe that China will not change. In fact, as an individual, submitting to another culture feels like I was brought up the wrong way and as if I am an alien (and still does), even though I've been subject to Canadian culture (if there is any...poutine? lol cmon) for 14 years. I speak for myself by the way, I don't speak on behalf of any country with more than 8 people (including Canada).
I think a lot of your believes comes from how you are brought up. If China was "in control" (instead of the west), then the scenario would be that Chinese people would want to convert your western believes of free speech and all that noodles into Chinese believes. Would you want that? Obviously not, seeing how most people are against how the Chinese are operating. Likewise for Chinese people, when western cultures try to change the Chinese people, how do you think they will respond? Seriously just leave them alone. Europeans learned to find their way into fighting for their own freedom, why don't you just let the Chinese do it for themselves? Oh sorry, we are intellectually unequal to the western world, and therefore we cannot fight for ourselves...
So what exactly has changed? The emperors restricted trade and put people in different social classes based on the fact that the populace is dumb and can not be trusted with knowledge, instead he relies on the intellectuals to administrate.
fast forward to now, same problem, the government is trying to suppress knowledge arguing that the populace are not ready.
People needs to understand this. We Chinese spend the last thousands of years perfecting our states craft, we made an art out of how to control a large population. Maintaining order is their game.
Chinese dynasties only collapse when external changes cause sit to collapse, such as natural disasters, foreign invasion etc...
RIP google.cn, you've fight the good fight.
I just feel differently than you do on this issue. I feel that change should be natural (internal, at least), and shouldn't be forced externally. This could be affected by my personal judgement, I'd rather change something about myself based on my own opinion than have people tell me how I should change subject to their view.
Add: I read your last sentence carefully (3 times) and I have to say that is not why the dynasties fell...they fell because of the inheritance from one king to the next through bloodline. The first emperors in a long dynasty (e.g. the Han, Tang, Qin) were all successful, it isn't until it passes down many generations that it falls apart. Hard to explain and translate to English, but the real reason is that as the kings are passed down they are more incompetent than the next (with the exception of the western Han). Obviously this involves people starving and emperors just don't care, or know to care. Then you have rebellions, invasions from Mongols and Manchurians seeing weakness in the Dynasty. But really that's kind of off topic.
On January 13 2010 10:02 Smorrie wrote: Sent the link to my friend in China.. his response:
Can't see.. link is blocked.
lmao
lmaox2
Just a small note, is there reason for concern over one's freedom of speech if one lives in China? I mean the media is very much against activists stirring up trouble because they are influenced by foreign media (ie google + circumvention). If the Chinese government has access to Chinese activists' search(as the article seems to suggest they were trying to do), they could monitor or even harm them. I would bet baidu gives all their info to the Chinese government, so there's almost no privacy there.
It's not difficult to believe that any government is corrupt enough to harm any dissenters.
I find all this defensiveness just weird and nationalistic or some kind of racial pride (or p.c. racial pity). When people are speaking ill of China the country, specifically the government, or even of the culture in general, they are not striking a blow to your belief that we can't prejudge people on the basis of race. Fact is, you can in fact make generalizations about large groups. Tall people tend to go to the NBA more than average. Black people too. Also, dogs tend to be dog-like more than cat-like, thus we call them dogs. It doesn't stop at species. Chihuahuas are small with bug eyes, not black and white with spots like Dalmatians, despite that both are yes, the same species. Oh, so within the same species, we can group alike things by word and speak of them. You might even observe that some breeds are dumber than others, or tend to be overly loyal, or yippee--you can make positive or negative remarks about groups.
So I don't think it's necessarily taboo to try to make some general observation about Chinese people, especially ones that are completely native to China as opposed to just descendant from it, although even then you are actually on fine ground. It in no way means that your Dalmatian is annoying, just that, as a group, they may be, according to someone's opinion. Don't get sickened by it. Don't write your congressman. Chill out, and have a difference of opinion. It should be okay for me to say that I don't generally like Irishmen if that's how I feel, and to say what trends I have observed. It's not the result of scientific study, but neither is most of what is said on any forum. And yes, there are exceptions. There are gay men who don't lisp or show any effeminate body language or speech mannerisms. But if you are irritated by those things, you might observe that most gay men exhibit them, and say that therefore as a group gay men annoy you. It doesn't mean that 100% of all gay men will do this as a rule. Don't equivocate. BTW I'm a gay man and no they don't annoy me; it's just an example.
So, that being in mind, I stand up for the ability to say things about "Chinese" people or "Chinese" government or "China," whether positive or negative. I don't try to apply some unnatural linguistic standard to it, and don't really think people saying they are "appalled" or "disgusted" by such speech are in the right.
Be that as it may, China will do what it thinks it needs to do, which apparently includes stabbing corporations in the back who have bent over backwards to work with them even to the point they look evil in the eyes of the rest of civilization. Yes, I think China stabbed Google in the back, and yes I would say it's because they lack judgment and don't know better, and I think they won't learn anything from this because they still have the same problems--they (and clearly I'm speaking of the way the regime behaves right now, but if you have some leftist need to alert your p.c.-dar on me here then go ahead--I love flamewars with pseudo-sensitives) lack judgment and don't know better.
You could say that they "have their reasons", and of course they do--I just think those reasons will largely turn out to be wrong. Clearly what they have done here is put their hand in the cookie jar thinking they wouldn't get caught. It's the bad thinking of common criminals, and they won't even realize this because here's how it's going to go down:
They'll spin it as them doing something legitimate and Google doing something stupid. Everyone will only hear this explanation on TV and in their newspapers for a week or two. Word of mouth will be shut down largely out of fear, but of course the more educated class will know what really happened but it hardly will matter. Eventually, both explanations will have credibility even in the minds of those who have the luxury to have both, but only one will be publicly permissible to say or hear, and that one will be the only one known by the majority. Whether believed or not, the state explanation will have all the functions that a true explanation normally has available to it, while the other will be all but criminalized.
This is what China does with any controversy. Saying this should not insult you as a Chinese person or Chinese-descent person. They did this with bird flu, the milk fiasco, and H1N1 just to name a few. Someone in China does something bad, or something bad happens in China. At first they say it didn't happen. If forced further they admit something small and harmless. If forced further they say that they admitted it all along and have addressed the problem. At no point is the state or anyone it it (besides an enemy of the state) ever at fault. The truth changes to keep this true at all times. You might think this way of thinking is necessary but clearly it has its downsides. Outbreaks are denied and untreated because of this. Stupid behaviors towards corporations are not believed to be such. Poisoned milk kills more children than was necessary. All this, we are supposed to believe, is to prevent bigger problems. Maybe it does. How do you prove that it didn't prevent something that was allegedly prevented? Maybe my typing this keeps the moon from crashing into the Earth. Physicists may challenge this, but if we go the Chinese way, those physicists will be suppressed anyways. Think about it.
At no point is the state or anyone it it (besides an enemy of the state) ever at fault. The truth changes to keep this true at all times. You might think this way of thinking is necessary but clearly it has its downsides. Outbreaks are denied and untreated because of this. Stupid behaviors towards corporations are not believed to be such. Poisoned milk kills more children than was necessary. All this, we are supposed to believe, is to prevent bigger problems. Maybe it does. How do you prove that it didn't prevent something that was allegedly prevented? Maybe my typing this keeps the moon from crashing into the Earth. Physicists may challenge this, but if we go the Chinese way, those physicists will be suppressed anyways. Think about it.
Can you explain what you mean in a short paragraph or couple of sentences. It confuses me, especially the last part.
But if I'm not mistaken, you are trying to tell me that I should allow people to criticize China because they are only opinions? Well what of my opinions then? Shouldn't I express them? Think about that.
Considering he's saying that it's ok to make sweeping racial judgments across the board with little to no knowledge (or in less polite words, be a racist), I'm not sure you should mind being confused by his post.
I have been following this thread closely, during the past days, I read post from people that live in China or are in China. I am not chinese nor have any chinese friends or relations with China. I do know this however:
Mankind all through his history has been deprived of evolving. As time has moved on, man has been smart enough to figure that him being deprived of evolution is simply not good, and that evolution although may challenge "the system, the laws, what has been standing", is right.
The roman empire, the ottoman empire, the mongolian empire, all those are gone now and they were oppressive government systems that kept their people "pacified". I do believe that people shouldn't be pacified, whereas people should have freedom of do what they want of course in a context of what should do is right (such as laws, constitutions, etc) that are founded under the principle that man is born free.
For instance, imagine if the holy roman empire during the modern age, would have kept Galileo or Copernicus or Newton "pacified", just to name a few examples. We'd probably still be using horses and carriages, and candlelights.
I surely have nothing to speak regarding chinese people as a previous poster from China mentioned, they are poor and would do anything to get rich; if you think about it, a high percentage (I'm not going to say the majority) of mankind, somehow wants to get rich. And I'm not talking about getting millionaire, wealthy, billionaire, but to improve his quality of life, for him and for his beloved ones, yes both materially and intellectually too. Let's face it, who doesn't want to improve his life-style ? Even if it is switching from a $ 5,000 car to an $ 8,000 car, or from a 1400 sq ft house to a 1800 sq ft house. Why most people go to school ? To go to college. Why people go to college ? To learn how to make his life better. Why Galileo stood against the Pope explaining him how the solar system works: because he wanted the human race to evolve. It's human nature to look for the better.
What I'm trying to say, again as an outsider ignorant of China and their people, is: think about, if China has 1 billion population, how many scientists could China have ? Cause I'm pretty sure that yes they may be poor and have been wounded mentally for long, but that doesn't mean they're not smart. How many engineers, physicians, sportsmen, from China would be there, that would help improve human race for the better. I'm quite sure China has a lot going on but face it, even 10 million people attending college and getting degrees, is just 0.1 % of their population. The other 99.9 % are just doing nothing productive.
Maybe yes, the freedom of speech all at once may be to shocking, but hell, what is it out there that the government doesn't want the population to see ? Yes, porn and violence and stuff, but a lot of intelectual, social, recreative activites are out there too.
I am a firm believer of history, and history has always proved that freedom of speech is what has allowed to get us where we are today.
On January 15 2010 13:09 proberecall wrote: I have been following this thread closely, during the past days, I read post from people that live in China or are in China. I am not chinese nor have any chinese friends or relations with China. I do know this however:
Mankind all through his history has been deprived of evolving. As time has moved on, man has been smart enough to figure that him being deprived of evolution is simply not good, and that evolution although may challenge "the system, the laws, what has been standing", is right.
The roman empire, the ottoman empire, the mongolian empire, all those are gone now and they were oppressive government systems that kept their people "pacified". I do believe that people shouldn't be pacified, whereas people should have freedom of do what they want of course in a context of what should do is right (such as laws, constitutions, etc) that are founded under the principle that man is born free.
For instance, imagine if the holy roman empire during the modern age, would have kept Galileo or Copernicus or Newton "pacified", just to name a few examples. We'd probably still be using horses and carriages, and candlelights.
I surely have nothing to speak regarding chinese people as a previous poster from China mentioned, they are poor and would do anything to get rich; if you think about it, a high percentage (I'm not going to say the majority) of mankind, somehow wants to get rich. And I'm not talking about getting millionaire, wealthy, billionaire, but to improve his quality of life, for him and for his beloved ones, yes both materially and intellectually too. Let's face it, who doesn't want to improve his life-style ? Even if it is switching from a $ 5,000 car to an $ 8,000 car, or from a 1400 sq ft house to a 1800 sq ft house. Why most people go to school ? To go to college. Why people go to college ? To learn how to make his life better. Why Galileo stood against the Pope explaining him how the solar system works: because he wanted the human race to evolve. It's human nature to look for the better.
What I'm trying to say, again as an outsider ignorant of China and their people, is: think about, if China has 1 billion population, how many scientists could China have ? Cause I'm pretty sure that yes they may be poor and have been wounded mentally for long, but that doesn't mean they're not smart. How many engineers, physicians, sportsmen, from China would be there, that would help improve human race for the better. I'm quite sure China has a lot going on but face it, even 10 million people attending college and getting degrees, is just 0.1 % of their population. The other 99.9 % are just doing nothing productive.
Maybe yes, the freedom of speech all at once may be to shocking, but hell, what is it out there that the government doesn't want the population to see ? Yes, porn and violence and stuff, but a lot of intelectual, social, recreative activites are out there too.
I am a firm believer of history, and history has always proved that freedom of speech is what has allowed to get us where we are today.
On January 15 2010 13:09 proberecall wrote: For instance, imagine if the holy roman empire during the modern age, would have kept Galileo or Copernicus or Newton "pacified", just to name a few examples. We'd probably still be using horses and carriages, and candlelights.
This is a poor analogy. Free flow of information within the state cannot be compared to free flow of information from without. Furthermore, it's worth pointing out that where Galileo's ideas conflicted with those of the governing ideology of the time (the Catholic Church) his ideas WERE pacified.
On January 15 2010 13:09 proberecall wrote: I surely have nothing to speak regarding chinese people as a previous poster from China mentioned, they are poor and would do anything to get rich; if you think about it, a high percentage (I'm not going to say the majority) of mankind, somehow wants to get rich. And I'm not talking about getting millionaire, wealthy, billionaire, but to improve his quality of life, for him and for his beloved ones, yes both materially and intellectually too. Let's face it, who doesn't want to improve his life-style ? Even if it is switching from a $ 5,000 car to an $ 8,000 car, or from a 1400 sq ft house to a 1800 sq ft house. Why most people go to school ? To go to college. Why people go to college ? To learn how to make his life better. Why Galileo stood against the Pope explaining him how the solar system works: because he wanted the human race to evolve. It's human nature to look for the better.
It's worth mentioning here something that many Western views take for granted: the various "freedoms" that we accept here came into being through, and exist within, the moral framework of Christian values. While the specifics of various sects may differ, the general moral framework established (and enforced--sometimes in very violent manner) by the Christian church is essential to the functioning of these rights. Freedom of speech functions for the general good because we take for granted that spreading misinformation and slander are vices. It's instilled in the moral education of the citizen of America or Europe that the possible abuses of these rights are "wrong".
Now contrast with that with the Chinese citizen, who has no established, common taught religion. As much as people dismiss MoltkeWarding, he got it right that Chinese ethics are rooted heavily in the family and the community. Now combine this with the systematic attack and degradation of these traditional values over the past 150-200 years, as entering regimes (some Chinese and some foreign) systematically tear down and rebuild this value structure. Without the ethical enforcement inherent in a Western upbringing, and with community values successively degraded, it's not hard to see how freedom of speech could be potentially dangerous. The dishonest and the malicious (which still improve the station of the person at hand--the thief is still richer for what he does--just at the expense of others), which are surely criminal exceptions in a Western society, are likely to be far more common.
On January 15 2010 13:09 proberecall wrote: What I'm trying to say, again as an outsider ignorant of China and their people, is: think about, if China has 1 billion population, how many scientists could China have ? Cause I'm pretty sure that yes they may be poor and have been wounded mentally for long, but that doesn't mean they're not smart. How many engineers, physicians, sportsmen, from China would be there, that would help improve human race for the better. I'm quite sure China has a lot going on but face it, even 10 million people attending college and getting degrees, is just 0.1 % of their population. The other 99.9 % are just doing nothing productive.
And how many thieves, murderers, and revolutionists could be among that population? With a moral structure that does less to discourage such paths than those in the West, it becomes hard to judge whether it would be beneficial or harmful when the sum is taken. Certainly, it's not guaranteed to be harmful anymore than it's guaranteed to be beneficial. But, given China's center-stage position in the political and economic frame of the world--could the rest of the world handle it if things took a turn for the worse?
On January 15 2010 13:09 proberecall wrote: I am a firm believer of history, and history has always proved that freedom of speech is what has allowed to get us where we are today.
This is wildly speculative. Indeed it's very difficult to even correlate freedom of speech to a positive influence on humanity's development, let alone confirm a causal relationship.
On January 15 2010 14:24 Boblion wrote: I don't know what freedom of expression has do to do with Christianism but w/e
Then you missed the point of my second paragraph.
Why do we espouse freedom of expression? Because we believe it is beneficial to a society--that the benefits outweigh it's potential abuses. The thing is, this is not necessarily true outside a western framework of moral values. Free speech is devalued by the criminal abuses of misinformation, slander, and blackmail. A Christian system of moral values--which, ultimately, is at the foundation of most modern Western cultures, keeps this in check because we deem those as vices. It's "wrong" to lie or use damning information to coerce or defame your peers.
On January 15 2010 14:24 Boblion wrote: I don't know what freedom of expression has do to do with Christianism but w/e
Then you missed the point of my second paragraph.
Why do we espouse freedom of expression? Because we believe it is beneficial to a society--that the benefits outweigh it's potential abuses. The thing is, this is not necessarily true outside a western framework of moral values. Free speech is devalued by the criminal abuses of misinformation, slander, and blackmail. A Christian system of moral values--which, ultimately, is at the foundation of most modern Western cultures, keeps this in check because we deem those as vices. It's "wrong" to lie or use damning information to coerce or defame your peers.
I think that the whole "freedom of expression" concept is WAY more related to the old Greek and Roman Republics in the Antiquity. Yea i know those weren't perfect since only adult free males were allowed to vote but this era has influenced way more the current forms of democracy in the Western countries than Christianism. Actually i think that Christianism was clearly one of the most important restraint to freedom of expression lol. Read more about the history of France or Spain for example.
About the moral values of people eh i don't know. I think that pretty much all the religions have the same basis. ( No murder, respect your parents, don't steal, pray etc... ) so it doesn't really matter if x% of the Western population is still of Christian background. What about atheists ? muslims ? etc ??? I mean there are tons of non believers nowadays. They can't be trusted too ?
I also would like to know what you would think if freedom of expression was banned for first generation Asian people living in the Western countries. I mean eh you even said it yourself.... they have disputable moral values and can't really be trusted. ( yea i'm teasing xD )
I don't know if you guys have seen the article with this quote, but I think it sums it up nicely. I agree with what he has to say.
Jess Wu, Venture Partner at The Chinese Founders Fund:
“Google is trying to escalate a business problem into a political issue. They want an angle so the U.S. government can get involved. They want nation-to-nation talks. Since no dot-coms have really succeeded in China, I actually think they’ve done a good job reaching at least 20 percent market share.
I’ve been talking about this to many friends. It’s OK. It’s no big deal. They all say, ‘Just quit. We don’t care.’ The Chinese government will never back down on the censorship issue. If they do, their power will weaken and they will fall.”
I think that China should have an uncensored internet when the government is prepared to handle it and makes the decision on their own. I think having it encroached on them can only be negative in the long run.
On January 15 2010 15:08 Xxio wrote: I don't know if you guys have seen the article with this quote, but I think it sums it up nicely. I agree with what he has to say.
Jess Wu, Venture Partner at The Chinese Founders Fund:
“Google is trying to escalate a business problem into a political issue. They want an angle so the U.S. government can get involved. They want nation-to-nation talks. Since no dot-coms have really succeeded in China, I actually think they’ve done a good job reaching at least 20 percent market share.
I’ve been talking about this to many friends. It’s OK. It’s no big deal. They all say, ‘Just quit. We don’t care.’ The Chinese government will never back down on the censorship issue. If they do, their power will weaken and they will fall.”
I think that China should have an uncensored internet when the government is prepared to handle it and makes the decision on their own. I think having it encroached on them can only be negative in the long run.
To be fair you could have also quoted people who have a different opinion
Victor Huang, vice president of China Renaissance, an investment bank that counts Kaixin001, the country’s answer to Facebook, and Dangdang, its version of Amazon.com, among its clients:
“Why give up so easily? Google is still small here, but China is a very large market.
It’s very unusual for a company to stand against the government. It’s really weird. The U.S. government could support them, but there must be a middle way. China is always about the middle way. I don’t think they will quit. Chinese Internet users will stand up for them. That’s why Baidu got hacked.
Google is not the only company who faces these issues. One of our clients, 51.com, had to stop their services for a week and a half because of content policies. They only came back up yesterday.”
On January 15 2010 14:53 Boblion wrote: About the moral values of people eh i don't know. I think that pretty much all the religions have the same basis. ( No murder, respect your parents, don't steal, pray etc... ) so it doesn't really matter if x% of the Western population is still of Christian background. What about atheists ? muslims ? etc ??? I mean there are tons of non believers nowadays. They can't be trusted too ?
Atheists, Muslims, and other Non-Christian communities can similarly be evaluated in the manner of Christian values. Most religions, as you said, ascribe similar moral values, at least in regard to the vices relevant to free speech. Atheists, though not deriving their ethics directly from Christianity, nevertheless have their own moral values, often inherited at least in part from the Christian-like education of public education in various Western countries. Those that ascribe to moral values that are too weak to be compatible with free speech (e.g. slander is a perfectly acceptable part of one's normal actions) are generally few and far between.
What separates China is its unique combination of lacking a state religion, and of the more secular source of moral values--the community--being generally degraded by various influences over the last hundred years.
On January 15 2010 14:53 Boblion wrote: I also would like to know what you would think if freedom of expression was banned for first generation Asian people living in the Western countries. I mean eh you even said it yourself.... they have disputable moral values and can't really be trusted. ( yea i'm teasing xD )
As the moral values of a Chinese immigrant is tied to his community, so it may conform to his/her new environment as he/she enters a new community. This, arguably is what contributes to the unique worldview of Chinese expatriates, which you earlier deemed as hypocritical.
On January 15 2010 13:09 proberecall wrote: I have been following this thread closely, during the past days, I read post from people that live in China or are in China. I am not chinese nor have any chinese friends or relations with China. I do know this however:
Mankind all through his history has been deprived of evolving. As time has moved on, man has been smart enough to figure that him being deprived of evolution is simply not good, and that evolution although may challenge "the system, the laws, what has been standing", is right.
The roman empire, the ottoman empire, the mongolian empire, all those are gone now and they were oppressive government systems that kept their people "pacified". I do believe that people shouldn't be pacified, whereas people should have freedom of do what they want of course in a context of what should do is right (such as laws, constitutions, etc) that are founded under the principle that man is born free.
For instance, imagine if the holy roman empire during the modern age, would have kept Galileo or Copernicus or Newton "pacified", just to name a few examples. We'd probably still be using horses and carriages, and candlelights.
I surely have nothing to speak regarding chinese people as a previous poster from China mentioned, they are poor and would do anything to get rich; if you think about it, a high percentage (I'm not going to say the majority) of mankind, somehow wants to get rich. And I'm not talking about getting millionaire, wealthy, billionaire, but to improve his quality of life, for him and for his beloved ones, yes both materially and intellectually too. Let's face it, who doesn't want to improve his life-style ? Even if it is switching from a $ 5,000 car to an $ 8,000 car, or from a 1400 sq ft house to a 1800 sq ft house. Why most people go to school ? To go to college. Why people go to college ? To learn how to make his life better. Why Galileo stood against the Pope explaining him how the solar system works: because he wanted the human race to evolve. It's human nature to look for the better.
What I'm trying to say, again as an outsider ignorant of China and their people, is: think about, if China has 1 billion population, how many scientists could China have ? Cause I'm pretty sure that yes they may be poor and have been wounded mentally for long, but that doesn't mean they're not smart. How many engineers, physicians, sportsmen, from China would be there, that would help improve human race for the better. I'm quite sure China has a lot going on but face it, even 10 million people attending college and getting degrees, is just 0.1 % of their population. The other 99.9 % are just doing nothing productive.
Maybe yes, the freedom of speech all at once may be to shocking, but hell, what is it out there that the government doesn't want the population to see ? Yes, porn and violence and stuff, but a lot of intelectual, social, recreative activites are out there too.
I am a firm believer of history, and history has always proved that freedom of speech is what has allowed to get us where we are today.
The reason the Western world was able to subject China to the misery it did is because China stagnated. Chinese society simply wasn't evolving. Free speech was instrumental in the leap forward the west had which enabled them to progress far beyond China in a single century. At the time of that mission to exploit China China had been stagnant for several centuries and showed no inclination of changing. Heard of the 1421 Chinese expeditions? Basically China surveyed the rest of the world, circumnavigating it several times in technological and logistical feats that were hundreds of years ahead of the west. It was really quite incredible, they visited South America, Australia, east and west coast of America, Greenland and Russia. Unfortunately they then concluded the rest of the world was shit (which it kinda was in comparison to them) and isolated themselves. They stagnated, inventions stopped and a few hundred years later their river defences, in many cases cannon unchanged for hundreds of years, were destroyed by the state of the art British ironclads in the First Opium War. So your point makes no sense historically. You can talk forever about how good they used to be at inventing shit but that didn't change the fact that they changed for the worse. The China attacked by western powers was not the same China that invented all that stuff.
On January 15 2010 15:08 Xxio wrote: I don't know if you guys have seen the article with this quote, but I think it sums it up nicely. I agree with what he has to say.
Jess Wu, Venture Partner at The Chinese Founders Fund:
“Google is trying to escalate a business problem into a political issue. They want an angle so the U.S. government can get involved. They want nation-to-nation talks. Since no dot-coms have really succeeded in China, I actually think they’ve done a good job reaching at least 20 percent market share.
I’ve been talking about this to many friends. It’s OK. It’s no big deal. They all say, ‘Just quit. We don’t care.’ The Chinese government will never back down on the censorship issue. If they do, their power will weaken and they will fall.”
I think that China should have an uncensored internet when the government is prepared to handle it and makes the decision on their own. I think having it encroached on them can only be negative in the long run.
To be fair you could have also quoted people who have a different opinion
Victor Huang, vice president of China Renaissance, an investment bank that counts Kaixin001, the country’s answer to Facebook, and Dangdang, its version of Amazon.com, among its clients:
“Why give up so easily? Google is still small here, but China is a very large market.
It’s very unusual for a company to stand against the government. It’s really weird. The U.S. government could support them, but there must be a middle way. China is always about the middle way. I don’t think they will quit. Chinese Internet users will stand up for them. That’s why Baidu got hacked.
Google is not the only company who faces these issues. One of our clients, 51.com, had to stop their services for a week and a half because of content policies. They only came back up yesterday.”
Well I wasn't going to put in every of the like 10 quotes in my comment, I just chose the one I find most insightful. Anyways, I've seen what this thread has become, just wanted to contribute something...peace
On January 15 2010 15:13 KwarK wrote: The reason the Western world was able to subject China to the misery it did is because China stagnated. Chinese society simply wasn't evolving. Free speech was instrumental in the leap forward the west had which enabled them to progress far beyond China in a single century. At the time of that mission to exploit China China had been stagnant for several centuries and showed no inclination of changing. Heard of the 1421 Chinese expeditions? Basically China surveyed the rest of the world, circumnavigating it several times in technological and logistical feats that were hundreds of years ahead of the west. It was really quite incredible, they visited South America, Australia, east and west coast of America, Greenland and Russia. Unfortunately they then concluded the rest of the world was shit (which it kinda was in comparison to them) and isolated themselves. They stagnated, inventions stopped and a few hundred years later their river defences, in many cases cannon unchanged for hundreds of years, were destroyed by the state of the art British ironclads in the First Opium War. So your point makes no sense historically. You can talk forever about how good they used to be at inventing shit but that didn't change the fact that they changed for the worse. The China attacked by western powers was not the same China that invented all that stuff.
So basically you're saying that China, having stagnated and degenerated into the state it did, deserved foreign intervention in that manner?
On January 14 2010 23:19 Hawk wrote: Absolutely. What exactly do you think will be so grave about the change? People might *gasp* question what the fuck their leaders have been doing for the last 50 or 100 years? Forcefully throw their government out? None of this spells impending disaster for the world.
The total collapse of the government in the country with the world's 2nd-3rd highest GDP doesn't trouble you in the least? You don't think that could have huge economic ramifications globally at all?
Soviet Russia was #2 in the world, and less than ten years later, most of those ex-USSR countries saw an improvement in their GDP. The world didn't end. The world economy didn't come to a crashing halt. People got their freedom (at least in formally escaping the government, since Russian influence is still seen all over) and things kept on chugging right along.
Are you kidding? The economies of the former USSR went to complete shit during the entire decade after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the collapse of the Soviet Union itself was comparatively orderly (no, it wasn't, but it wasn't violently overthrown, it was dismantled from above). And Soviet Russia was far more egalitarian than China is today, with far less levels of social unrest - China gets hundreds of riots every year, many of which need to be suppressed by thousands of police or soldiers. If the Chinese government were to collapse everything would go to shit.
On January 15 2010 15:13 KwarK wrote: The reason the Western world was able to subject China to the misery it did is because China stagnated. Chinese society simply wasn't evolving. Free speech was instrumental in the leap forward the west had which enabled them to progress far beyond China in a single century. At the time of that mission to exploit China China had been stagnant for several centuries and showed no inclination of changing. Heard of the 1421 Chinese expeditions? Basically China surveyed the rest of the world, circumnavigating it several times in technological and logistical feats that were hundreds of years ahead of the west. It was really quite incredible, they visited South America, Australia, east and west coast of America, Greenland and Russia. Unfortunately they then concluded the rest of the world was shit (which it kinda was in comparison to them) and isolated themselves. They stagnated, inventions stopped and a few hundred years later their river defences, in many cases cannon unchanged for hundreds of years, were destroyed by the state of the art British ironclads in the First Opium War. So your point makes no sense historically. You can talk forever about how good they used to be at inventing shit but that didn't change the fact that they changed for the worse. The China attacked by western powers was not the same China that invented all that stuff.
So basically you're saying that China, having stagnated and degenerated into the state it did, deserved foreign intervention in that manner?
Which part of my "subject China to the misery" and "exploit" did you read as a defence of what the European powers did to China? Obviously they didn't deserve exploitation. Nobody deserves exploitation. The ideal would have been a gentle guiding hand towards progress. But that's not how the world works. If you had to choose between western intervention and complete isolation (no communication between China and the the rest of the world) then western intervention is the lesser of two evils.
On January 15 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote: So, Kwark, imperialism overall is a good thing?
No, because the flow of ideas does not rely on imperialism. The flow of ideas is a good thing. Imperialism relies upon imposing the power of one country upon another which is a bad thing. I feel I'm making myself quite clear in these posts. In fact, in the post you're replying to I described it as an evil.
On January 15 2010 15:13 TheYango wrote: As the moral values of a Chinese immigrant is tied to his community, so it may conform to his/her new environment as he/she enters a new community. This, arguably is what contributes to the unique worldview of Chinese expatriates, which you earlier deemed as hypocritical.
Eh i was just using your reasoning. It was obviously ironic. Don't worry i don't think that the Chinese guys at my uni will stab me. However i have still troubles to understand. What is so bad about the environment and the community in China to change the wonderful adaptative Chinese immigrant into a dangerous persona ? Stealing, lieing, killing aren't perceived morally bad ? I think that some Chinese have already stated in this thread that they disagree with this idea. I also think we agreed before that the average human beings have the same fundamental moral values ( at least regarding murder / robbery ) and i don't know why the Chinese would became serial killers or thieves because of more freedom of expression. It seems that you can't understand that freedom of expression is compatible with order and justice. Money to hire policemen and juges shouldn't be a problem with the impressive China GPD growth. Also China has billions to hire teachers and build schools everywhere and teach kids proper morals. Eh they are already quite good when it comes to teach bs nationalism.
Again i know it is cliche to use the Indian example but i'm pretty sure that they have living conditions as bad if not worse than the average Chinese guy. Corruption and crime are rampant ( in China too sup Wen Qiang ) but they still have freedom of expression. You will probably say that half of the population is too illiterate or poor to care about politics but w/e India is still rising.
I think that the real reason for the lack of freedom of expression is not that crime rate will skyrocket but that people will question the legitimacy of the government and since it has none except its power well i guess that it makes the top guys of the CCP quite insecure. So basicly i think that the "not ready for" argument is just a pretext for immobilism hence the same guys can stay in power.
It's funny. I don't agree with censorship, yet I always seem to be arguing on behalf of China here. It's just that the whole freedom of speech -> revolution -> everything is awesome and better! Freedom! Democracy! line of thought strikes me as ignorant and naive.
Things might change with time, things might not, but regardless I don't presume to know what's best for the country, yet so many people who have never been there do? It's surprising how many people would advocate that an entire regime be overthrown just because they don't uphold western values. Nevermind the fallout that a revolution would cause, it's this "we know what's best for the rest of the world" mentality that allowed imperialism to thrive.
On January 15 2010 15:57 Boblion wrote: I think that the real reason for the lack of freedom of expression is not that crime rate will skyrocket but that people will question the legitimacy of the government and since it has none except its power well i guess that it makes the top guys of the CCP quite insecure. So basicly i think that the "not ready for" argument is just a pretext for immobilism hence the same guys can stay in power.
That's the truth. Perhaps there are not so many people knowing how the CCP got their political power by cheating the masses during the civil war to the Chinese Nationalist Party. If the guys of the CCP lose its control of speech, they will die just like their opponent 60 years ago.
On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote: I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you.
I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
Don't be fooled, he doesn't work for google. Some one already posted facts that google is barely used in China. And I'm sure that if this had happened to any company, they would do the same.
Who the f*** are you to say who does or doesn't work for google? Thank lord I'm not a mod I'd ban you just for that. Fuckkkk I hate people like you
On January 13 2010 11:20 motbob wrote: How can you know what our media is like?
I know for a fact that China restricts a whole bunch of freedoms and fails to guarantee others. I know that no matter what, freedom of the press in the United States is guaranteed. There have been attempts in the past from the U.S. government to squash that right (Pentagon Papers), and those attempts have been unsuccessful. On the other hand, the Chinese government claims to guarantee that right, but in reality does not.
I know a whole bunch about your media and about media in general. The fact that it was free, or i'd say free for grabs, it allowed for organized effort to buy it out completely. Right now it is controlled. Right now it's the nastiest propaganda machine that world has ever seen, you are presented with very limited information, ignoring a lot of atrocious events and subjects and concentrating on minor violence and injustices in China or Middle East. Same can be said about Western and Eastern Europe but the situation is not as gross. It's not politically correct issue to talk about on american forum, but you will easily find out if you just try.
"I'm going to make a lot of claims about something that I'm not directly experiencing, but I won't try to provide any evidence because it wouldn't be 'politically correct.'"
I agree, it's just me being a pussy. Alright. What can you say about this Video?
lol david duke used to be a grand wizard in the KKK.
You gotta consider where this guy comes from rofl.
If you close-mindedly dismiss it for no good reason, there are still other people and videos, but they are so much less direct and honest. Like This or This
Fuck you
Can you please not spread anti-semitic propaganda around here? That video is totally bullshit and is the exact same lie that put Hitler in power. The great Jewish conspiracy has been around forever and has absolutely no truth behind it at all.
The second video is from Campaign for Liberty. I feel offended that you associate such a noble cause with your bullshit "anti-semitic propaganda" label.
There is truth behind all stereotypes. Jews don't carry a gold bag around their necks, but you're blind if you don't see what the Jewish lobby does in the United States.
On January 15 2010 15:57 Boblion wrote: I think that the real reason for the lack of freedom of expression is not that crime rate will skyrocket but that people will question the legitimacy of the government and since it has none except its power well i guess that it makes the top guys of the CCP quite insecure. So basicly i think that the "not ready for" argument is just a pretext for immobilism hence the same guys can stay in power.
That's the truth. Perhaps there are not so many people knowing how the CCP got their political power by cheating the masses during the civil war to the Chinese Nationalist Party. If the guys of the CCP lose its control of speech, they will die just like their opponent 60 years ago.
TL threads are always the most interesting. Be it on any topic from how to defend a 12 nex to the state of "free speech" in China. Anyway, some random points. 1.) People have been citing LA Times. While LA Times isn't a "biased" news source in the way one might think, you can see from the articles they choose to put on their front-page (not that anybody reads newspapers anymore) that they have a pretty clear Anti-China agenda. Count the frequency of Anti-China articles on their front pages over any span in the past few years compared to... say... the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. A trend should be obvious. 2.) Idig, you are vastly oversimplifying what happened in the CCP's rise to power. It was as much propaganda by the CCP as the clear and obvious mistakes made by the Nationalists. The discourse of the day was anti-imperialist and (therefore) anti-traditionalist. The forceful wind of Nationalism clearly blew against the belief and behavior of the Nationalist party (irony intended). 3.) I respect Google for taking the stand. On one hand I believe it is still a political justification for a long-term economic decision. On the other, maybe something good can come of this! (probably not though.) 4.) Yeah.... China is pretty messed up right now (as a developing economy) and if I were in their Politburo I would most definitely continue to restrict free access to information. As pyro keenly stated, and I echoed in point 2, China's nationalistic discourse continues to be rooted largely on Post-Coloniality... the Korean War slogans like "China can say no, too!" while not as obvious reflect a continuing paranoia to the threat of exploitation. That's why there's a political shitstorm any time Japan does a military exercise (even if it's clearly directed towards NK), or Taiwan talks about Independence. I don't believe China is going to be ready to engage in that step of its development until its per-cap GDP is anywhere near half that of the developed world. What Pyro said, in my worthless opinion, reflects a trickling down of the nationalist ideology onto the individual psyche of the chinese citizen. If my nation is strong, I am strong; but if my nation is made the West's bitch, I'm made a bitch too. My roommate is from a small(er) city in China than Beijing/HK/SH and I intend to ask him about this more tomorrow... but my sense is that in poorer parts of the country, many people feel that, based on their standard of living, they've been made bitches, which based on the previous logic, stirs up anti-Western sentiment. Long story short.... free information + current China = shitstorm waiting to happen. 5.) I love TL and realize I have not cited any sources! Feel free to hit me with criticism, and I'll try to find data in the next week or so (when i get a chance) to back my lofty bullshit claims.
Thanks everybody and much love be going around! <3
On January 15 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote: So, Kwark, imperialism overall is a good thing?
What an awful way to look at history. History isn't good or bad--it just is. It's causality. Things happen, and subsequently, there are consequences. You can't really apply contemporary morality to situations that happened centuries ago as circumstances were completely different back then. Not to mention, documentation is subject to huge bias so the "truth" of what really happened is difficult to discern.
On January 15 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote: So, Kwark, imperialism overall is a good thing?
What an awful way to look at history. History isn't good or bad--it just is. It's causality. Things happen, and subsequently, there are consequences. You can't really apply contemporary morality to situations that happened centuries ago as circumstances were completely different back then. Not to mention, documentation is subject to huge bias so the "truth" of what really happened is not difficult to discern.
Going to have to disagree with you here. I think one of the big benefits to studying history is precisely so that we can look at what went right and what went wrong, and learn from it.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Humans who know the past are also condemned to repeat it. People don't change. Edit: In the introduction to The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides, the first modern historical book, Thucydides writes that one of his goals is that through the recording of the war mankind can learn to avoid such pointless destruction. It was written over 2400 years ago.
Draccid, I'm not saying that we shouldn't learn. I'm saying that we should apply our moral decisions today to the actions we take today (and their consequences). We learn these consequences of our actions from history.
What he was doing was applying our morals today, to decisions made in the past. Thats what I was disagreeing with.
Edit: And not only that, they were events that happened centuries ago. The more recent the "history," the more applicable I think it is to today. Applying contemporary morality to things that happened 50 years ago is a lot more relevant than applying contemporary morality to events that happened centuries or millenia ago.
Honestly, for those who don't study Chinese history or know of it, take a look at the Cultural Revolution for why modern Chinese are so against sudden change.
On January 15 2010 15:13 KwarK wrote: The reason the Western world was able to subject China to the misery it did is because China stagnated. Chinese society simply wasn't evolving. Free speech was instrumental in the leap forward the west had which enabled them to progress far beyond China in a single century. At the time of that mission to exploit China China had been stagnant for several centuries and showed no inclination of changing. Heard of the 1421 Chinese expeditions? Basically China surveyed the rest of the world, circumnavigating it several times in technological and logistical feats that were hundreds of years ahead of the west. It was really quite incredible, they visited South America, Australia, east and west coast of America, Greenland and Russia. Unfortunately they then concluded the rest of the world was shit (which it kinda was in comparison to them) and isolated themselves. They stagnated, inventions stopped and a few hundred years later their river defences, in many cases cannon unchanged for hundreds of years, were destroyed by the state of the art British ironclads in the First Opium War. So your point makes no sense historically. You can talk forever about how good they used to be at inventing shit but that didn't change the fact that they changed for the worse. The China attacked by western powers was not the same China that invented all that stuff.
So basically you're saying that China, having stagnated and degenerated into the state it did, deserved foreign intervention in that manner?
Stop bringing that victim crap into the argument.
Kwark used his case as an example to validate progressive thinking and sharing of knowledge. Something so fundamental yet so absent amongst Chinese academics and ridiculed in Chinese culture for so long.
Well yes, but then at least the historians can be smug and say "I told you so."
History is biased and subjective, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't apply contemporary morality to past events. I admit that it's stupid to simply look at past events and denounce them as horrible by contemporary standards (how popular was the topic of eugenics back in the day?), but it's still helpful to look at such events and realize why we consider them terrible.
I'm not going to argue why slavery and the holocaust were bad, most people accept this as a given. The problem is that we tend to oversimplify things. We think eugenics and racism are terrible, and denounce them. The idea behind eugenics itself is not inherently immoral, and we'll see it practiced to varying degrees in the future regardless of ethical debates. Racism might be a bad thing, but outright rejecting it means you're ignorant to subconscious biases you might have, which are problematic of themselves.
My point is simply that given an open-minded approach to history, taking into account how mindsets were different back then, we can still look at past events in terms of morality. In this case, the point is not to forget the mentality behind imperialism, and what happened the last time western powers decided they had all the right answers for the rest of the world. I agree that EmeraldSparks was oversimplifying things, as it is debatable whether or not western intervention for China was a good thing. Still, I do think the lessons of imperialism should be remembered here, in that the west does not necessarily have China's interests in mind when their media is constantly harping about the evils of censorship and how the Chinese lack freedom.
It gives me the impression that many, many, MANY people seem to think that the best thing for China would be "freedom of speech" to magically appear overnight, and that would automatically allow the Chinese people to somehow advance to a better state. However, these same people do not consider the implications that the freedom of speech have on China's society.
For those who say that arguments against freedom of speech in China boils down to keeping the current party in power: That is exactly why freedom of speech should not happen as it does in the west. The current party is the only thing that is keeping China unified and ordered, and preventing it from dissolving into chaos.
For five thousand years, the Chinese people were used to having a vague sort of higher entity and government governing things. The fact that they rarely interfere in the lives of your average person means little - it's the knowledge that there is -something- governing us that gives China order. The emperor can do what he wants in the Forbidden Palace, as long as he is providing the sense of a unified government, all is well.
When there is not a "governing" presence, chaos presents itself. China is simply not ready for anarchy - the bloodiest periods in Chinese history are, ironically, in the often glorified revolutions that shift the control of the country from one dynasty to another. No ruler wants his ascension to be marred by an image of abject poverty and destruction, so this image isn't as readily available to the general imagination, but the truth of the matter is, when one dynasty is weak, chaos tends to spread, and famine and war tend to grip the country for a chaotic decade or so before another governing body asserts itself. We don't even need to look at the dynastic shifts for evidence of this - just think of the period after 1911, immediately following the collapse of the Qing dynasty. The Republic of China did not magically assert itself and give order to the Chinese people. In a country as big as China, both in terms of land and population, it is simply not feasible for unity to spread. In the vacuum of a government, we had, during the not-so-glorious rule of the Nationalist party, stuff like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_era
It is, essentially, a civil war with dozens of factions claiming areas big or small. Which, obviously, is not an environment conducive to unity or stability.
If "freedom of speech" suddenly became a universal presence in China, there would obviously be uprisings against the PRC. Whether or not they're consisted of enough people to pose a concrete thread is irrelevant, the fact will be that they will be there, and government, unsure of what would happen but certain that if it were to collapse, there could be no good outcome, would respond through the simplest and most effective means to control an angry mass - military action, and crushing riots. Now, either this doesn't psis enough people off and the status quo remains, or it pisses off enough people that the government gets overthrown. And then we have another chaotic period until another vague entity asserts itself in Beijing, and the status quo is, once again, restored.
This is obviously a gross simplification with many assumptions to make things straightforward, but it's realistic enough for my point: when the government is week, people will try to capitalize on it, whether for their personal gain, making a stand on principles, or whatever. Socially, discontent in China is at its highest when a government is weak and not when it's authoritatively ruling over every aspect of life.
The point is, China functions very efficiently when there is an authoritative governing entity. And if it comes at the cost of some amount of freedom of speech, the average Chinese citizen is fine with that, because honestly, they're not missing anything from a lack of "freedom of speech." The right to the freedom of speech, for the vast majority of people, don't benefit their lives at all. Chinese morality is much less focused on individualism than Western morality, and that is the thing that strikes observers as so odd about why the Chinese people aren't rioting in the streets every day demanding individual rights. For five thousand years, we were brought up to respect authority - the foremost tenet of Confucianism is the respect that the ruled has for the ruler, and the ruler's obligation to provide security to the ruled. Second is your duty to your ancestors, third your duty to your spouse, fourth to your friends, and fifth to your brothers. Nowhere does it dictate that you have a duty to yourself beyond the security that the ruler provides you. Chinese people don't -need- the same set of rights as Westerners, so for a Chinese person to see an American or an European trying to force their values on us, we would obviously judge you to be at best ignorant, and at worst maliciously offensive.
At no point is the state or anyone it it (besides an enemy of the state) ever at fault. The truth changes to keep this true at all times. You might think this way of thinking is necessary but clearly it has its downsides. Outbreaks are denied and untreated because of this. Stupid behaviors towards corporations are not believed to be such. Poisoned milk kills more children than was necessary. All this, we are supposed to believe, is to prevent bigger problems. Maybe it does. How do you prove that it didn't prevent something that was allegedly prevented? Maybe my typing this keeps the moon from crashing into the Earth. Physicists may challenge this, but if we go the Chinese way, those physicists will be suppressed anyways. Think about it.
Can you explain what you mean in a short paragraph or couple of sentences. It confuses me, especially the last part.
But if I'm not mistaken, you are trying to tell me that I should allow people to criticize China because they are only opinions? Well what of my opinions then? Shouldn't I express them? Think about that.
I don't understand where in this paragraph you quoted you are getting this. I'm referring to the revisionist/denialist tendency of the media that is permitted in China and its negative effects. You seem to be referring to things I said elsewhere in my post, but you specifically quoted one paragraph and asked me only about it, so I am confused.
Assuming you mean my whole post and not the part you quoted, however, notice that I am saying who I believe is in the wrong, not who should and should not speak. Saying some should not speak would be a Chinese approach. Saying who I believe to be wrong isn't.
On January 15 2010 09:56 KissBlade wrote: Considering he's saying that it's ok to make sweeping racial judgments across the board with little to no knowledge (or in less polite words, be a racist), I'm not sure you should mind being confused by his post.
Not at all. I specifically said that there are exceptions to generalizations and specifically gave examples of how generalizations are nonetheless real and legitimate. You are exactly the kind of wrong my post was supposed to challenge.
We can make general terms above the species level. They are not false or unfair. e.g. "mammal" We can make generalizations about them even when there are exceptions. We can make a word for a group that shares some characteristics at this level. Clearly it's possible to talk about mammals without listing every category-defying exception. The word exists legitimately, out of what generally is common between many individuals/particulars.
We can make general terms at the species level. They are not false or unfair. e.g. "dog" We can make generalizations about them even when there are exceptions. We can make a word for a group that shares some characteristics at this level. I might say something about dogs, but it isn't going to be true for 100% of dogs and that's not what people generally mean when they talk about groups larger than particulars/individuals.
We can make general terms within or "below" the species level. They are not false or unfair. e.g. "chihuahua" (all breeds of dog are the same species fyi) We can make generalizations about them even when there are exceptions. We can make a word for a group that shares some characteristics at this level. I might say something about chihuahuas, even if it doesn't apply to your chihuahua.
We can make general terms smaller than that, still. They are not false or unfair. e.g. "John's chihuahuas" We can make generalizations about them even when there are exceptions. We can make a word for a group that shares some characteristics at this level. I could say, John's chihuahuas seem particularly fat and yippy. Does this mean that one might come along that isn't? No Does it mean there has never been an exception? No. It is talking about the whole group, compared to another whole group. It's possible and fair.
Is it unfair to talk about Texas? The culture of Texas? People from Texas? Why not larger areas then? Because they are "a race"? But we've just shown that groups less particular and more particular than race are both legitimate categories to discuss, despite what anthropologists may have declared. If not race, then the p.c. equivalent, i.e. people descendant from blah blah who live here and speak this and their ancestors have for blah blah time period. In other words, yes, race/culture/nationality or some blend of them.
It's really embarrassing to see so many people sensitive/embarrassed/outraged because people say bad things about a government or a culture that their ancestors are a part of. If anything, people doing this are the real race-ists, because they're assuming more of a connection to "their race" than they really should believe in. If you did not grow up in China, go to school in China (in a Chinese-speaking school), watch Chinese television (with no access to anything else), then in what way do you group yourself with the culture and regime people are referring to here, in such a way that you take offense and have to defend them? If you had to go live in some city in China you would observe the same detrimental qualities about them, if you were not so busy defending them like they are your family. Frankly, it's a bit pathetic to see people who clearly have been raised in western schools by speakers of English to think that Chinese people are just like them, and that any insult to China (particularly as a culture or government) is an insult to them.
This would be like black people (in the u.s.) bending over backwards to defend Somalians and the Somalian way of life, culture, government etc. It makes no sense, sorry.
edit: there's nothing efficient about the way China functions (re: above post). Go there and see.
It's really embarrassing to see so many people sensitive/embarrassed/outraged because people say bad things about a government or a culture that their ancestors are a part of. If anything, people doing this are the real race-ists, because they're assuming more of a connection to "their race" than they really should believe in. If you did not grow up in China, go to school in China (in a Chinese-speaking school), watch Chinese television (with no access to anything else), then in what way do you group yourself with the culture and regime people are referring to here, in such a way that you take offense and have to defend them? If you had to go live in some city in China you would observe the same detrimental qualities about them, if you were not so busy defending them like they are your family. Frankly, it's a bit pathetic to see people who clearly have been raised in western schools by speakers of English to think that Chinese people are just like them, and that any insult to China (particularly as a culture or government) is an insult to them.
This would be like black people (in the u.s.) bending over backwards to defend Somalians and the Somalian way of life, culture, government etc. It makes no sense, sorry.
edit: there's nothing efficient about the way China functions (re: above post). Go there and see.
Blood runs thicker than water. I'm sorry that you do not feel the same kind of attachment to your heritage that many Chinese immigrants take pride in. That's fine, but to attack it is downright ignorant. That's like saying someone's wrong for supporting a sport team if they aren't related to any of the players. Why would you support this team? Why would you hold this team to be better than its rival when you have no real say in it? People are allowed to have loyalties to things, for good reasons, for vague reasons, for no reason at all. It shouldn't need to be defended. It's one of the things that makes us human.
And China runs pretty damn efficiently from what I've seen (I've been there. I've lived there. I don't think you have.), and its growth rates agree.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Taking pride in your blood like a sports team is not only stupid, but dangerous. It's the exact kind of thing we should all be very cautious of--the reason for so many problems in the world today. The reason racism and cultural cleansing can exist. It's also ignorant to defend something you really have no information about. If you told me that Lebron was an asshole in the lockerroom I wouldn't stand up for him just because I liked him as a player, or, say, was his great grandchild or something (in the future, obviously). That's ridiculous. Just like it's ridiculous to say "how dare you say Chinese people are stupid? I'm Chinese! I'm not stupid! RRRGGG!!!!" to people who actually have experience and knowledge of China and clearly mean people there, not Chinese-race-cheerleaders who other than their family and appearance, are almost not Chinese at all (sorry).
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?
During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.
There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.
And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.
H1N1.. yeah, that pandemy which until this day i have not met anyone that had it which was harmless compared to a normal flu anyway... Good job keeping that one from spreading and bringing death to millions...
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying. Taking pride in your blood like a sports team is not only stupid, but dangerous. It's the exact kind of thing we should all be very cautious of--the reason for so many problems in the world today. The reason racism and cultural cleansing can exist. It's also ignorant to defend something you really have no information about. If you told me that Lebron was an asshole in the lockerroom I wouldn't stand up for him just because I liked him as a player, or, say, was his great grandchild or something (in the future, obviously). That's ridiculous. Just like it's ridiculous to say "how dare you say Chinese people are stupid? I'm Chinese! I'm not stupid! RRRGGG!!!!" to people who actually have experience and knowledge of China and clearly mean people there, not Chinese-race-cheerleaders who other than their family and appearance, are almost not Chinese at all (sorry).
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
Taking pride in my blood is stupid? Oh geez...I'm going to take this as a personal opinion and leave it alone, but don't repeat that again because I will make fun of you.
I think you haven't been to China long enough to understand anything. Efficiency? Do you know anything about China? Like holy watermelons, taxis are all over the place in China, but in Canada you have to friggin CALL to get a taxi....my first impression when I moved to Canada was, where are all the buses? I have to wait 15min for the next bus? Wth is this? Seriously compared to some of the cities in China, Canada seems more like a village than anything. No buses, no taxis, no arcade. I will say, however, Canadian cities are cleaner and feels safer to live in, despite the lack of stores, cheap food and transportation. So no, western cities are not necessarily more efficient and the government is slow.
By the way, as Carnivous said about the train ticket issue, I feel bad for you. Just go up and get a train ticket, maybe Chinese people just wanted to screw around with you.
And by the way, your analogy of the dog-cat-sheep-elephant-tigers should be treated equal idea doesn't make sense. Human beings are not normal creatures. We Rape. Everything.
I didn't quote your previous post while talking about it, kinda long and incoherent. Maybe you can condense it to a shorter version next time, the length of my quoted section is about right.
On January 15 2010 15:13 TheYango wrote: As the moral values of a Chinese immigrant is tied to his community, so it may conform to his/her new environment as he/she enters a new community. This, arguably is what contributes to the unique worldview of Chinese expatriates, which you earlier deemed as hypocritical.
Eh i was just using your reasoning. It was obviously ironic. Don't worry i don't think that the Chinese guys at my uni will stab me. However i have still troubles to understand. What is so bad about the environment and the community in China to change the wonderful adaptative Chinese immigrant into a dangerous persona ? Stealing, lieing, killing aren't perceived morally bad ? I think that some Chinese have already stated in this thread that they disagree with this idea. I also think we agreed before that the average human beings have the same fundamental moral values ( at least regarding murder / robbery ) and i don't know why the Chinese would became serial killers or thieves because of more freedom of expression. It seems that you can't understand that freedom of expression is compatible with order and justice. Money to hire policemen and juges shouldn't be a problem with the impressive China GPD growth. Also China has billions to hire teachers and build schools everywhere and teach kids proper morals. Eh they are already quite good when it comes to teach bs nationalism.
Again i know it is cliche to use the Indian example but i'm pretty sure that they have living conditions as bad if not worse than the average Chinese guy. Corruption and crime are rampant ( in China too sup Wen Qiang ) but they still have freedom of expression. You will probably say that half of the population is too illiterate or poor to care about politics but w/e India is still rising.
I think that the real reason for the lack of freedom of expression is not that crime rate will skyrocket but that people will question the legitimacy of the government and since it has none except its power well i guess that it makes the top guys of the CCP quite insecure. So basicly i think that the "not ready for" argument is just a pretext for immobilism hence the same guys can stay in power.
Actually in most situations, state control had always had a contrary effect on crime within a nation/state. Though I don't think that's the true reason why freedom of speech is limited; I just wanted to point that out. I actually think the main reason China wouldn't relax it's policies is because it just appears to be kow-towing to Western demands. If foreign powers would just shut up, I actually see no real reason China would actually keep some of it's current censors. I think both arguments that state that it's there to keep the political party in place or that anarchy would take effect, are too extreme. Honestly, if you examine how the party is doing their job, I think they're doing one heck of a job and the growth of China and the higher average living standard can be directly attributed to their work.
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying. Taking pride in your blood like a sports team is not only stupid, but dangerous. It's the exact kind of thing we should all be very cautious of--the reason for so many problems in the world today. The reason racism and cultural cleansing can exist. It's also ignorant to defend something you really have no information about. If you told me that Lebron was an asshole in the lockerroom I wouldn't stand up for him just because I liked him as a player, or, say, was his great grandchild or something (in the future, obviously). That's ridiculous. Just like it's ridiculous to say "how dare you say Chinese people are stupid? I'm Chinese! I'm not stupid! RRRGGG!!!!" to people who actually have experience and knowledge of China and clearly mean people there, not Chinese-race-cheerleaders who other than their family and appearance, are almost not Chinese at all (sorry).
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
Taking pride in my blood is stupid? Oh geez...I'm going to take this as a personal opinion and leave it alone, but don't repeat that again because I will make fun of you.
I think you haven't been to China long enough to understand anything. Efficiency? Do you know anything about China? Like holy watermelons, taxis are all over the place in China, but in Canada you have to friggin CALL to get a taxi....my first impression when I moved to Canada was, where are all the buses? I have to wait 15min for the next bus? Wth is this? Seriously compared to some of the cities in China, Canada seems more like a village than anything. No buses, no taxis, no arcade. I will say, however, Canadian cities are cleaner and feels safer to live in, despite the lack of stores, cheap food and transportation. So no, western cities are not necessarily more efficient and the government is slow.
By the way, as Carnivous said about the train ticket issue, I feel bad for you. Just go up and get a train ticket, maybe Chinese people just wanted to screw around with you.
And by the way, your analogy of the dog-cat-sheep-elephant-tigers should be treated equal idea doesn't make sense. Human beings are not normal creatures. We Rape. Everything.
I didn't quote your previous post while talking about it, kinda long and incoherent. Maybe you can condense it to a shorter version next time, the length of my quoted section is about right.
canada only has 35 million people spread across the second biggest country in the world. buses coming ever 5 minutes when there's nobody waiting at the stop seems pretty inefficient.
and what old times said is pretty correct; nationalism is stupid
On January 15 2010 23:04 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying. Taking pride in your blood like a sports team is not only stupid, but dangerous. It's the exact kind of thing we should all be very cautious of--the reason for so many problems in the world today. The reason racism and cultural cleansing can exist. It's also ignorant to defend something you really have no information about. If you told me that Lebron was an asshole in the lockerroom I wouldn't stand up for him just because I liked him as a player, or, say, was his great grandchild or something (in the future, obviously). That's ridiculous. Just like it's ridiculous to say "how dare you say Chinese people are stupid? I'm Chinese! I'm not stupid! RRRGGG!!!!" to people who actually have experience and knowledge of China and clearly mean people there, not Chinese-race-cheerleaders who other than their family and appearance, are almost not Chinese at all (sorry).
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
Taking pride in my blood is stupid? Oh geez...I'm going to take this as a personal opinion and leave it alone, but don't repeat that again because I will make fun of you.
I think you haven't been to China long enough to understand anything. Efficiency? Do you know anything about China? Like holy watermelons, taxis are all over the place in China, but in Canada you have to friggin CALL to get a taxi....my first impression when I moved to Canada was, where are all the buses? I have to wait 15min for the next bus? Wth is this? Seriously compared to some of the cities in China, Canada seems more like a village than anything. No buses, no taxis, no arcade. I will say, however, Canadian cities are cleaner and feels safer to live in, despite the lack of stores, cheap food and transportation. So no, western cities are not necessarily more efficient and the government is slow.
By the way, as Carnivous said about the train ticket issue, I feel bad for you. Just go up and get a train ticket, maybe Chinese people just wanted to screw around with you.
And by the way, your analogy of the dog-cat-sheep-elephant-tigers should be treated equal idea doesn't make sense. Human beings are not normal creatures. We Rape. Everything.
I didn't quote your previous post while talking about it, kinda long and incoherent. Maybe you can condense it to a shorter version next time, the length of my quoted section is about right.
canada only has 35 million people spread across the second biggest country in the world. buses coming ever 5 minutes when there's nobody waiting at the stop seems pretty inefficient.
and what old times said is pretty correct; nationalism is stupid
Except that's not really how old times put it until people started calling him on his arguments. You can blanket your argument with a premise that really has nothing to do with what you're saying. For example, if I just say "Nationalism is stupid. People shouldn't get upset if I think most Americans/Canadians are retarded because I wasn't talking about them specifically," how would you feel? In fact, I find it ironic that you would state "nationalism is stupid" and jump so readily at the defense of Canada in the same post.
Why would you not support the country of your origin? It helps you formulate a sense of identity and ironically, a sense of self as well. It might be dangerous, but it's useful. When you have a conflict, you want more people on your side. Who are you going to side with? People who look and think like you. No man is an island, no one can survive by themselves. It might be wrong, but we all look towards a group to offer us safety and protection and contribute to it.
On January 15 2010 23:04 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying. Taking pride in your blood like a sports team is not only stupid, but dangerous. It's the exact kind of thing we should all be very cautious of--the reason for so many problems in the world today. The reason racism and cultural cleansing can exist. It's also ignorant to defend something you really have no information about. If you told me that Lebron was an asshole in the lockerroom I wouldn't stand up for him just because I liked him as a player, or, say, was his great grandchild or something (in the future, obviously). That's ridiculous. Just like it's ridiculous to say "how dare you say Chinese people are stupid? I'm Chinese! I'm not stupid! RRRGGG!!!!" to people who actually have experience and knowledge of China and clearly mean people there, not Chinese-race-cheerleaders who other than their family and appearance, are almost not Chinese at all (sorry).
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
Taking pride in my blood is stupid? Oh geez...I'm going to take this as a personal opinion and leave it alone, but don't repeat that again because I will make fun of you.
I think you haven't been to China long enough to understand anything. Efficiency? Do you know anything about China? Like holy watermelons, taxis are all over the place in China, but in Canada you have to friggin CALL to get a taxi....my first impression when I moved to Canada was, where are all the buses? I have to wait 15min for the next bus? Wth is this? Seriously compared to some of the cities in China, Canada seems more like a village than anything. No buses, no taxis, no arcade. I will say, however, Canadian cities are cleaner and feels safer to live in, despite the lack of stores, cheap food and transportation. So no, western cities are not necessarily more efficient and the government is slow.
By the way, as Carnivous said about the train ticket issue, I feel bad for you. Just go up and get a train ticket, maybe Chinese people just wanted to screw around with you.
And by the way, your analogy of the dog-cat-sheep-elephant-tigers should be treated equal idea doesn't make sense. Human beings are not normal creatures. We Rape. Everything.
I didn't quote your previous post while talking about it, kinda long and incoherent. Maybe you can condense it to a shorter version next time, the length of my quoted section is about right.
canada only has 35 million people spread across the second biggest country in the world. buses coming ever 5 minutes when there's nobody waiting at the stop seems pretty inefficient.
and what old times said is pretty correct; nationalism is stupid
Except that's not really how old times put it until people started calling him on his arguments. You can blanket your argument with a premise that really has nothing to do with what you're saying. For example, if I just say "Nationalism is stupid. People shouldn't get upset if I think most Americans/Canadians are retarded because I wasn't talking about them specifically," how would you feel? In fact, I find it ironic that you would state "nationalism is stupid" and jump so readily at the defense of Canada in the same post.
nationalism had nothing to do with my post. bus scheduling is a logic problem. and apparently i "jumped" at your post by simply responding to it? that's a little silly
On January 15 2010 23:04 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote: That's exactly what I'm saying. Taking pride in your blood like a sports team is not only stupid, but dangerous. It's the exact kind of thing we should all be very cautious of--the reason for so many problems in the world today. The reason racism and cultural cleansing can exist. It's also ignorant to defend something you really have no information about. If you told me that Lebron was an asshole in the lockerroom I wouldn't stand up for him just because I liked him as a player, or, say, was his great grandchild or something (in the future, obviously). That's ridiculous. Just like it's ridiculous to say "how dare you say Chinese people are stupid? I'm Chinese! I'm not stupid! RRRGGG!!!!" to people who actually have experience and knowledge of China and clearly mean people there, not Chinese-race-cheerleaders who other than their family and appearance, are almost not Chinese at all (sorry).
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
Taking pride in my blood is stupid? Oh geez...I'm going to take this as a personal opinion and leave it alone, but don't repeat that again because I will make fun of you.
I think you haven't been to China long enough to understand anything. Efficiency? Do you know anything about China? Like holy watermelons, taxis are all over the place in China, but in Canada you have to friggin CALL to get a taxi....my first impression when I moved to Canada was, where are all the buses? I have to wait 15min for the next bus? Wth is this? Seriously compared to some of the cities in China, Canada seems more like a village than anything. No buses, no taxis, no arcade. I will say, however, Canadian cities are cleaner and feels safer to live in, despite the lack of stores, cheap food and transportation. So no, western cities are not necessarily more efficient and the government is slow.
By the way, as Carnivous said about the train ticket issue, I feel bad for you. Just go up and get a train ticket, maybe Chinese people just wanted to screw around with you.
And by the way, your analogy of the dog-cat-sheep-elephant-tigers should be treated equal idea doesn't make sense. Human beings are not normal creatures. We Rape. Everything.
I didn't quote your previous post while talking about it, kinda long and incoherent. Maybe you can condense it to a shorter version next time, the length of my quoted section is about right.
canada only has 35 million people spread across the second biggest country in the world. buses coming ever 5 minutes when there's nobody waiting at the stop seems pretty inefficient.
and what old times said is pretty correct; nationalism is stupid
Except the 35mil ppl aren't spread across the whole country, just that thin strip touching the U.S. border. Though I should apologize for Canada bashing, I did say some pretty negative things about a country that I've lived in for quite sometime.
On January 15 2010 23:23 ghostWriter wrote: Why would you not support the country of your origin? It helps you formulate a sense of identity and ironically, a sense of self as well. It might be dangerous, but it's useful. When you have a conflict, you want more people on your side. Who are you going to side with? People who look and think like you. No man is an island, no one can survive by themselves. It might be wrong, but we all look towards a group to offer us safety and protection and contribute to it.
I think it's less about that and more to the point that in most areas, people tend to accept more easily those who looks like them than not. For example, when most people immigrate to a country, their natural disposition is to seek out those from their native country just because getting help there would be easier. In a perfect world, there will be no national lines but the world we live in is less than perfect. Of course, judging from the tone of "old times sake's" post, it really doesn't even read as if his main point is against nationalism anyway. As I said, the premise of his claim really doesn't have anything to do with the examples and language he's using.
Well, his point mostly lies with the fact that Chinese-Americans aren't actually Chinese, aside from ethnicity. Their education, lifestyles, and upbringing are all largely American, with perhaps a bit of Chinese cultural influence, but for the most part they shouldn't be considered Chinese, so them defending China seems pointless.
Which for the most part is true. Except Chinese-Americans (substitute Canadian, European, etc.) aren't completely American either, because they're not white. I mean, technically they should be American, and legally they are, but realistically someone who's Chinese-American generally has much closer roots to China than say, someone who's German-American to Germany. I'd say this is a problem with America, but that's a different discussion and I'd rather not derail the thread with a rant on contemporary racism.
Anyhow, a lot of the people arguing on behalf of China aren't doing it because they feel personally attacked by criticisms of the Chinese government. For instance, I'm not a fan of the Chinese government. I just find most of the criticisms directed towards it baseless, shallow, and ignorant. I don't have to be a fan of China's government to appreciate that not everything they do is cruel and oppressive as the media would have you think, and I acknowledge that at least for now, it's a necessary establishment for the country. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things wrong with China, but the last thing it needs now is a revolution for the sake of freedom and democracy or whatever other ideals people like to spout out. China is not a country full of miserable oppressed peasants longing to be free (what does it mean to be free?). I just wish more people would understand this.
On January 16 2010 00:05 Dracid wrote: Well, his point mostly lies with the fact that Chinese-Americans aren't actually Chinese, aside from ethnicity. Their education, lifestyles, and upbringing are all largely American, with perhaps a bit of Chinese cultural influence, but for the most part they shouldn't be considered Chinese, so them defending China seems pointless.
Which for the most part is true. Except Chinese-Americans (substitute Canadian, European, etc.) aren't completely American either, because they're not white. I mean, technically they should be American, and legally they are, but realistically someone who's Chinese-American generally has much closer roots to China than say, someone who's German-American to Germany. I'd say this is a problem with America, but that's a different discussion and I'd rather not derail the thread with a rant on contemporary racism.
Anyhow, a lot of the people arguing on behalf of China aren't doing it because they feel personally attacked by criticisms of the Chinese government. For instance, I'm not a fan of the Chinese government. I just find most of the criticisms directed towards it baseless, shallow, and ignorant. I don't have to be a fan of China's government to appreciate that not everything they do is cruel and oppressive as the media would have you think, and I acknowledge that at least for now, it's a necessary establishment for the country. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things wrong with China, but the last thing it needs now is a revolution for the sake of freedom and democracy or whatever other ideals people like to spout out. China is not a country full of miserable oppressed peasants longing to be free (what does it mean to be free?). I just wish more people would understand this.
I agree a lot with this post.
The argument that Chinese-Americans are quite different from Chinese is, well, not much of an argument to be honest, and Dracid is right that it's kind of irrelevant here. There really has been no blind nationalism on the part of Chinese in this particular thread. I also agree with Dracid that just because you're defending China doesn't mean that you support everything that the government does. The reality is, most people here really do not understand China, and understanding China is critical in understanding why things are the way that they are in China now. The government, while it has plenty of problems, is not some evil entity. They're doing, for the most part, what they believe is best for the people. And from this thread it's pretty clear who knows about China's history and who doesn't, because those that do realize that it's not a simple matter of just granting freedom of speech and unlimited access to information. Yes, China does deserve those things, but it has to be done carefully.
That said, and to comment on something more on-topic, I think that it's really interesting that not many people have talked about the actual hacking itself. Anyone who knows anything about computer security or has any experience with the military knows about China and it's "army of hackers" and how many attacks organizations fend off from them every day. Granted, every country probably engages in some kind of less-than-honorable activity, the extent that China has done it regarding cyber attacks is really quite noteable and this is going to cause more problems in the future for sure. While I'm not so concerned with Google's "human rights" approach to the situation, I think it's good that they're bringing these kinds of hacking allegations to the public (not that they've been the first, but they're definitely making a scene with it). It's something that China really won't be able to get away with forever if they hope to retain good relations with other countries and organizations. That's really the root of the problem with Google here, not "human rights." That's just something additional that will net them a lot of support.
Also, I think it's pretty clear that the government won't budge on the censorship issue, so I'm really curious to see if Google will indeed back out of China. Regardless of whether or not China needs Google, many people here will be sad to see it go.
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?
During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.
There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.
And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.
LOL.
Same as America! Same as America!
Lines? just LOL.
H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?
Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.
And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?
During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.
There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.
And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.
LOL.
Same as America! Same as America!
Lines? just LOL.
H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?
Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.
And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?
I was going to say this doesn't make sense but KissBlade posted b4 me. No one said it was ok for Chinese to be racist...most of the racist comments in this post were directed at Chinese and not whites, so I don't see your point.
You might think this is cliche, but you don't know what it is like for a Chinese person (speaking for myself) being called a Ch**k and Chinaman and there is nothing I can do about it...because I am chinese.
But seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about sometimes, cat-dog-lion-meow-woof-chihuahua dude.
I'm sure that American entities do just as much hacking, if not more, than Chinese entities do. It's not like China has a monopoly on hacking know-how.
But while much of the evidence, including the sophistication of the attacks, strongly suggested an operation run by Chinese government agencies, or at least approved by them, company engineers could not definitively prove their case.
On January 16 2010 01:33 ghostWriter wrote: I'm sure that American entities do just as much hacking, if not more, than Chinese entities do. It's not like China has a monopoly on hacking know-how.
They don't have a monopoly, they're not even particularly that great at it, it's just the unusually high number of attacks that come out of China that are significant (as well as some of their targets). Considering China's large population and the interests of the government, that's really not that unexpected though.
If you really do some research about computer security and the origin of many cyber attacks that organizations face, you'll see that China really is a bit of a special case. No one's claiming innocence, but believe me when I say that the U.S. and other countries (excluding maybe Russia, but I don't believe even Russia quite compares) definitely do not launch as many cyber attacks as China. There are good reasons for that, and they're not necessarily moral ones either.
And as the article that Jibba posted explains, even though there has been quite a bit of evidence over the years regarding the original source of many of these cyber attacks, unfortunately due to the nature of how these things work, it is really difficult to gather the solid evidence necessary in order to legally point the blame at the Chinese government. That's part of why more can't be done about the issue.
Here's an interesting excerpt from that article:
Computer experts who track the thousands of daily attacks on corporate and government computer sites report that the majority of sophisticated attacks seem to emanate from China. What they cannot say is whether the hackers are operating on behalf of the Chinese state or in a haven that the Chinese have encouraged.
The latest episode illuminates the ambiguities.
For example, the servers that carried out many of the attacks were based in Taiwan, though a Google executive said "it only took a few seconds to determine that the real origin was on the mainland." And at Google's headquarters in Mountain View, there is little doubt that Beijing was behind the attacks. Partly that is because while Mr. Obama was hailing a new era of cautious cooperation with China, Google was complaining of mounting confrontation, chiefly over Chinese pressure on it to make sure Chinese users could not directly link to the American-based "google.com" site, to evade much of the censorship the company had reluctantly imposed on its main Chinese portal, google.cn.
"Everything we are learning is that in this case the Chinese government got caught with its hand in the cookie jar," said James A. Lewis, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, who consulted for the White House on cybersecurity last spring. "Would it hold up in court? No. But China is the only government in the world obsessed about Tibet, and that issue goes right to the heart of their vision of political survival and putting down the separatists' movements."
Again, no one's claiming that other countries are innocent, that would be pretty naive. But most people who know about computer security or have military experience will tell you that China is a special case regarding cyber attacks.
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?
During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.
There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.
And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.
LOL.
Same as America! Same as America!
Lines? just LOL.
H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?
Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.
And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?
I was going to say this doesn't make sense but KissBlade posted b4 me. No one said it was ok for Chinese to be racist...most of the racist comments in this post were directed at Chinese and not whites, so I don't see your point.
You might think this is cliche, but you don't know what it is like for a Chinese person (speaking for myself) being called a Ch**k and Chinaman and there is nothing I can do about it...because I am chinese.
But seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about sometimes, cat-dog-lion-meow-woof-chihuahua dude.
I said I'm Chinese. Way to read.
besides, what's your point, that racism justifies racial pride or defending someone because of their race? China has all the problems my posts said, and more. China attacked Google. Name another corporation that was attacked by a government with a shred of respect. I don't see any corporations suing the U.S. for hacking them. If you made a list of countries who are capable of this you would have a list of screwed up countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, etc. China intentionally puts itself in that category. If you think that's good judgment then go join the Taliban, k? Obviously China is better than that, and has many good people. How many more times does this need to be said? That doesn't mean that we should stick up for its government or make excuses for what was obviously a stupid act.
This isn't about China having "freedom", it's about not stabbing its partners in the back. This is a low blow by any standards and yet, if you look at the way China behaves, there is no reason to be surprised _at all_. That's saying a lot.
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote: Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote: Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.
Where does your political expertise come from?
You don't have to be an expert to have an opinion.
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote: Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.
Where does your political expertise come from?
You don't have to be an expert to have an opinion.
um what you stated was more factual than opinionated though ^_^
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote: Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.
Where does your political expertise come from?
You don't have to be an expert to have an opinion.
um what you stated was more factual than opinionated though ^_^
True, but it's not like I'm making governmental policy. I'm just posting on a gaming forum.
On January 16 2010 01:31 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:
On January 16 2010 01:20 old times sake wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote:
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?
During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.
There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.
And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.
LOL.
Same as America! Same as America!
Lines? just LOL.
H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?
Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.
And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?
I was going to say this doesn't make sense but KissBlade posted b4 me. No one said it was ok for Chinese to be racist...most of the racist comments in this post were directed at Chinese and not whites, so I don't see your point.
You might think this is cliche, but you don't know what it is like for a Chinese person (speaking for myself) being called a Ch**k and Chinaman and there is nothing I can do about it...because I am chinese.
But seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about sometimes, cat-dog-lion-meow-woof-chihuahua dude.
I said I'm Chinese. Way to read.
besides, what's your point, that racism justifies racial pride or defending someone because of their race? China has all the problems my posts said, and more. China attacked Google. Name another corporation that was attacked by a government with a shred of respect. I don't see any corporations suing the U.S. for hacking them. If you made a list of countries who are capable of this you would have a list of screwed up countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, etc. China intentionally puts itself in that category. If you think that's good judgment then go join the Taliban, k? Obviously China is better than that, and has many good people. How many more times does this need to be said? That doesn't mean that we should stick up for its government or make excuses for what was obviously a stupid act.
This isn't about China having "freedom", it's about not stabbing its partners in the back. This is a low blow by any standards and yet, if you look at the way China behaves, there is no reason to be surprised _at all_. That's saying a lot.
When did I DEFEND the chinese government? All I said in my original post was leave China alone. I guess I was too defensive saying people should stop flaming China and Chinese people in general. Wait what?
Why would I go join Taliban? I don't get it. When did I EVER say China did the right thing by supposedly hacking Google? Stop shoving words in people's mouth and stop, I mean stop, telling me I shouldn't have racial pride. And how am I racist? Because I don't believe your dog-meow-cat-cat theory and your other "Maybe [your] typing this keeps the moon from crashing into the Earth" theory? Like, wtf man? Do you know what you say sometimes?
And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.
You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?
During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.
There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.
And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.
LOL.
Same as America! Same as America!
Lines? just LOL.
H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?
Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.
And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?
... You are either really really high or just insecure or maybe you are just trolling.
What conclusive evidence does anyone have that the Chinese government is facilitating these attacks?
I mean so far everyone just keep saying that the attacks come from China. It's not that hard to build a botnet in China consider that the vast majority of PCs are pirated.
I think there is no conclusive evidence that reveals Chinese government's direct involvement in the attacks, but there are much evidence that suggests so. First, the hacked gmail accounts are from political dissidents and Tibetan independence advocates, which no one in the world except the Chinese government is interested in monitoring. Second, the hack is highly organized and sophisticated and Google claims no amateur is possibly capable of, so the government should at least be involved to some extent.
Or it could be that another government or organisation with the same capability used botnets in China to attack google and went with human rights gmails to frame Chinese government.
It's stupid. What does hacking into the gmail of people gain you? except maybe a date or time of protests.
On January 16 2010 10:00 haduken wrote: Or it could be that another government or organisation with the same capability used botnets in China to attack google and went with human rights gmails to frame Chinese government.
It's stupid. What does hacking into the gmail of people gain you? except maybe a date or time of protests.
I've had to study and write far more reports on this particular topic than I've cared to, and while I'll say that at first I tended to share your opinion and be a bit more open-minded about things, after awhile things really start to add up and you have to start facing reality. I'm not an expert, and even if I was, again due to the nature of these things it's hard to prove something like government involvement with 100% certainty, so it's difficult to explain why so many people are so certain that the government is behind these sorts of attacks unless you really understand a lot about computer security yourself. Most people would not be familiar with even the terminology, and that's quite true for this website as well, as was painfully evident with the whole 4chan vs. AT&T incident awhile back that people kept horribly misunderstanding.
But to answer your question about what hacking into someone's account gets you access to... Think about all the possible correspondences. Someone who's a human rights activist is obviously looking for a safe, reliable way to communicate regarding such issues, and simply put, Chinese e-mail services are not safe or reliable under such a context. Therefore, hacking such accounts potentially provides a wealth of information regarding who these activists really are, what they plan to do, who they're corresponding with, really anything that the account owner was willing to use the account for. It's not "just" an e-mail account, there are dangerous things those kinds of people are dealing with, and it certainly goes further than just the date or time of a protest. People's lives are potentially on the line, and I'm sure that we'll all agree a person's life is a big deal.
Whether most of these attacks originate in China is not much of an argument: they simply do. You'll have to trust the experts on that unless you want to study all about computer security yourself, because again, that's not something that people here will be able to explain very easily. What is up for debate is whether or not the government is involved in some way. Again, as Jibba's article pointed out, legally there is not enough evidence. Computer security and forensics is a tricky thing, and gathering evidence that will hold up in court, even in simple local cases, can often times be difficult. However to ignore all of the evidence that does point to the government, and to ignore all of the logic and common sense of a normal human being, is also not very wise. Sure, someone could be trying to frame China. But if so they've wasted a whole lot of time and put themselves at a whole lot of risk, and are pretty damn good and extremely shitty at what they do at the same time: that is, to be able to consistently mask their true location so well without actually being able to do much of what they're trying to accomplish. That's just not a very likely scenario. Possible I guess, but common sense tells you that's probably not the case.
Anyway, whether or not the government is really involved, if they don't want to be blamed, then they really need to be more active in preventing such incidents. As it is, if they are truly not involved, then they really aren't doing much (if anything at all) to stop these sorts of attacks, and that's not very responsible of a government. Especially when it's causing big problems such as this. That's really the bottom line here.
China and the west: Full circle By James Kynge Published: January 15 2010 22:42 | Last updated: January 15 2010 22:42
A 17th century map placing China at the centre of the world Just as cicadas thrum more urgently at the start of autumn, sensing that the end is nigh, internet users in China have been seizing in animated fashion on what one called “the last crazy days of Google.cn”.
With the US technology giant allowing uncensored searches in Chinese for the first time, citizens of the People’s Republic are this week indulging their curiosity ahead of a widely expected crackdown.
“I’ve been doing all sorts of crazy searches, really distracting myself from my work,” says one. “I’ve done Tiananmen Square, the love affairs of national leaders, the corruption of leaders’ children. Everything.”
Another internet user says the buzz of illicit abandon is reminiscent of the mood in Tiananmen Square itself, shortly before the People’s Liberation Army crushed the protests there in 1989. “There is no way that Google will get away with this. They will have to leave China for sure,” he adds.
The surreptitious joys of “netizens” may not be alone in existing on borrowed time. Google’s defiance of China’s censorship regime is indicative of much more than a single company’s decision to reassert its open-society principles over the pragmatism by which it originally entered the Chinese market, agreeing then to self-censor in return for business licences. Google’s move may suggest that the accommodations made by western companies in China can extend only so far before contorted values snap back into place.
More broadly, though, Google’s actions present at least a symbolic challenge to a broad swath of assumptions that has underpinned the west’s engagement with China over the past 30 years. In particular, they raise the question as to whether missionary capitalism – the prevalent but fuzzy belief that the west’s commercial engagement may somehow bring about a Chinese political liberalisation – has ever been more than a naive hope.
In Google’s experience, for example, the longer it operated in China, the more search words it was forced to ban and the greater the number of cyberattacks it fielded from Chinese sources.
In fact, in the opinion of several Chinese officials, the process of engagement in which successive US and other western governments have invested so much time and effort, may not have enamoured the Chinese public to the west at all. One senior Communist party official, speaking on condition of anonymity several weeks prior to Google’s move, said he saw a general regression in public disposition to the west.
“Even though Chinese, and especially Chinese youth, know the west better than ever before and there are many more exchanges and contacts between China and your countries than in the past, the west is less popular now among Chinese people than at any time since ‘reform and opening’ began [in 1978],” the official said. Indeed, anyone who regularly reads the postings of Chinese netizens will notice that comments critical of the west frequently far outnumber those that are positive.
Against this backdrop, Google’s decision prompts one of the simplest but furthest-reaching questions of all: how should the west deal with China? Or, to put a finer point on it, how can an international system created under Pax Americana to serve the interests of the west accommodate a rising giant that is set to remain different in almost every aspect – politics, values, history, natural endowments and per capita wealth – from the incumbent ruling order?
Even posing the question can elicit shock. James Mann, a former Beijing bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times, notes in his 2007 book, The China Fantasy, that although it is still theoretically possible that the country may yet morph into a democracy that promotes civil liberties and fosters an independent judiciary, the belief that this is a likely outcome is sheer self-delusion.
“America hasn’t thought much about what it might mean for the United States and the rest of the world to have a repressive, one-party state in China three decades from now because it is widely assumed that China is destined for a political liberalisation, leading eventually to democracy,” Mr Mann writes.
Multinational corporations are particularly susceptible to this type of China delusion, partly because the job of the person appointed to run China operations depends on being able to persuade his or her board that, although there may be difficulties, things are headed in a broadly benign direction. But if the definition of benign deployed by such China boosters includes assurances that the rule of law, protection for intellectual property, civil liberties and democracy will soon take root, the board may be in for a long wait.
As Kellee Tsai makes clear in her 2007 book, Capitalism Without Democracy, Beijing expends considerable effort to neutralise mechanisms by which its capitalist economy might create pressures for the formation of democratic checks and balances. One main strategy has been to keep the private sector loyal to the ruling Communist party. In 2003, for example, some 34 per cent of private entrepreneurs were party members, up from just 7 per cent in 1991.
If China therefore remains resolutely different from other countries that have prospered under Pax Americana even as it joins the world, how should the west react? One school of thought sees acceptance as key. “To think that commercial engagement by the west would change China misunderstands the nature of how change is likely to occur in China,” says Rana Mitter, professor of the history and politics of modern China at Oxford University. “Change has to come from within.”
According to Prof Mitter, China and the west should drop any pretence at harmony in their relationship and seek not to accentuate their similarities but to understand the context of their manifold differences. His position is echoed by some Chinese academics, who see Beijing’s inclination towards characterising its bilateral relationships in officially positive terms as unhelpful.
“China is a huge, independent and successful country that doesn’t want to be dictated to by the west,” says Shi Yinhong, professor of international relations at Renmin University. “Both sides need to learn to accommodate each other.”
One thing that westerners often misunderstand about China, says Prof Mitter, is that the relationship between state and society is different from that in western democracies. “It is fair to say that [in China] the broad norm is that the state and society have obligations to each other and that society acquiesces in the state’s project,” he says. “The assumption is that state and society are part of the same enterprise.” In western democracies, by contrast, society tends to have a more oppositional relationship with the governing elite.
This insight may go some way towards explaining the ease with which China’s propaganda authorities are able to channel western criticisms of China into outpourings of anti-western cyber-rage or patriotic fealty. In the case of Google, just hours after the news broke of its change of mind on censorship, party-affiliated newspapers began to play on the widespread sensitivity to a history of humiliations by the west to construct a great wall of patriotic fervour.
The Global Times, a subsidiary of the People’s Daily, asked thousands of its readers if they thought the Chinese government should submit to Google’s conditions. The survey generated an overwhelming response to the effect that Beijing should stand up to Google.
Other official media followed similar lines. In a commentary called “Google, who do you want to scare?” published by Shanghai’s Wenhui Daily, a writer characterised Google’s strategy as a “mixture of typical American naivety and western self-centrism”
For many a policymaker in the west, however, there is a world of difference between trying to understand China’s unique national character and dealing with a projection of Chinese power beyond its borders, especially when that power is tilted against western interests. In this respect, last month’s multilateral negotiations on climate change in Copenhagen were a shrill wake-up call.
“Copenhagen showed us the new normal,” wrote Leslie H. Gelb in the online Daily Beast. “The US has lost influence, China plays spoiler and tiny nations veto anything they don’t like.”
During the Copenhagen negotiations, China allied itself with some 77 developing countries to resist a legally binding treaty on climate change and opposed a mechanism of independent inspections that was intended to confirm emission control targets were being met. Frustration with China’s role was clear both during the summit and in comments by western participants afterwards. As a senior official from one developed country put it: “China cannot be allowed to appropriate the developing world like this again.”
But if the west wants to enter a beauty contest as China’s rival for the affections of the developing world, it may find it tough going. In Africa, for instance, China’s trade volume is likely last year to have overtaken that of the US, while in many African capitals Beijing’s brand of quick, no-nonsense investment assistance has won it a keen following.
But no matter how frustrated the west becomes with China, its interests are so intertwined that “doing a Google” on any large scale may not be an option. The developed world may simply have to resign itself to an adversarial symbiosis with China that grows ever more rancorous with time.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2010. Print a single copy of this article for personal use. Contact us if you wish to print more to distribute to others.
Just wanted to address a subpoint about Chinese culture and it's people:
I am Chinese. I recently visited Shanghai on vacation in December, 2009.
The people who have been commenting that Chinese morality and socially acceptable behavior are worlds different from western countries are correct.
China prides itself on its economic development and how close it has come to the west in the past decades. However, it only has a facsimile of a moral structure or social rules. The clearest way to describe how an average Chinese person thinks about right and wrong is this: get away with what you can, and don't get caught. That and "make as much money as you can, using any method you can get away with."
Anyone who's ever been in a Chinese city has probably ridden a taxi there. For most westerners, it was probably a frightening experience. 3 cars sharing 2 lanes on the highway. Lane changes in the middle of intersections. Not stopping for pedestrians unless they're about to hit and kill them. Etc.
Are there traffic laws in China? Sure there are. Use your turn signals, cars making turns yield to oncoming traffic, etc. However, drivers simply don't follow any of these laws unless there's a cop car near them. Their mindset is: "drive however you want, and as long as you don't hit anything, good for you." They will take any number of shortcuts and make erratic lane changes whenever they want to cut time.
Two examples: My family hailed a cab at an intersection. The cab was on the left turn lane, but we needed to turn right. As soon as the light turned green, the cab driver hit the gas, cut right across 4 lanes of traffic, and made a right turn from the left turn lane. Another one is, we were in a cab coming back from the airport, and the exit ramp we needed to take had a long line behind it. Our cab drove onto the shoulder, sped past dozens of cars, and continued riding the shoulder down the exit ramp until it closed, and finally merged into a proper lane.
Another example: People who've visited or lived in China have probably noticed that many people spit phlem on the sidewalks. Is it illegal to do this? Yep. Does anybody care? Not unless there's a cop around, and most times even the cops don't care.
Another example: Jaywalking. It's illegal. Next time you go to China, count how many jaywalkers there are.
Besides basic mannerisms, Chinese people are also amoral when dealing with business. Anyone who's been in China for a while has probably learned to bargain wherever they go. Those that don't soon find out they're getting charged 50%, double, or even triple more than the going price.
Why would a merchant knowingly rip off an innocent customer, charging them double the going rate? Simple, because they can.
Chinese businessmen don't view their clients as a valuable asset, the way many western businesses do. They view their clients as walking piggie-banks. They don't care if you find out that they charged you double, and never purchase from them again.
Is there customer service in China? Sure, but only because offering this service nets you more clients.
Example of merchants ripping you off: The place we stayed at in China needed the heating system fixed. My parents were out running errands when the handyman came. He was roughly my age, and a friendly guy. We talked as he worked. After he was finished, he wrote up a receipt for me, with a sum of 2000 RMB. My dad said the job was supposed to take 50-100.
I had no idea he was ripping me off, and after poking around, I could only come up with 1000 RMB in the house. He took it, and said he'd be back later. It was only after my Dad came back that I found out he'd charged me roughly 4-5 times what the actual cost was.
This guy was from a legitimate company, drove a company moped, and had a shirt with the company logo on it. He was perfectly nice and amiable. He also didn't blink an eye when he was price gouging me.
More common-knowledge examples of Chinese amorality are the "guanxi" or "connections" you have to have to do anything in China.
Are you sick? Do you want the best medical service? I hope you've got guanxi with the hospital adminsitrator, or one of the staff members.
Need a reservation on a busy night? Guanxi will get you a good table.
Long line at the bank? Guanxi. Cops harassing you? Guanxi. Want a good deal on a hot item at the mall? Guanxi. Want that promotion? Guanxi.
Do "connections" get you stuff in the west? Sure! But it's not ingrained to the level it is in China. Imagine if everything you did was affected by what connections you had.
And how do you get these connections? Well, some guanxi is formed though years of mutual friendship. Maybe your college buddy works at a restaurant, and since you know him, you can always get a good seat.
Most of the time though, guanxi is formed through money.
Common example: It's the norm for doctors, especially surgeons in China, to receive sums of money before operations. It's not part of the official bill, but you can be sure that you better have that little red envelope ready for your surgeon.
Another example that everyone knows about is how you have to have guanxi with the government if you want to do business in China.
Just wanted to address a subpoint about Chinese culture and it's people:
I am Chinese. I recently visited Shanghai on vacation in December, 2009.
The people who have been commenting that Chinese morality and socially acceptable behavior are worlds different from western countries are correct.
China prides itself on its economic development and how close it has come to the west in the past decades. However, it only has a facsimile of a moral structure or social rules. The clearest way to describe how an average Chinese person thinks about right and wrong is this: get away with what you can, and don't get caught. That and "make as much money as you can, using any method you can get away with."
Anyone who's ever been in a Chinese city has probably ridden a taxi there. For most westerners, it was probably a frightening experience. 3 cars sharing 2 lanes on the highway. Lane changes in the middle of intersections. Not stopping for pedestrians unless they're about to hit and kill them. Etc.
Are there traffic laws in China? Sure there are. Use your turn signals, cars making turns yield to oncoming traffic, etc. However, drivers simply don't follow any of these laws unless there's a cop car near them. Their mindset is: "drive however you want, and as long as you don't hit anything, good for you." They will take any number of shortcuts and make erratic lane changes whenever they want to cut time.
Two examples: My family hailed a cab at an intersection. The cab was on the left turn lane, but we needed to turn right. As soon as the light turned green, the cab driver hit the gas, cut right across 4 lanes of traffic, and made a right turn from the left turn lane. Another one is, we were in a cab coming back from the airport, and the exit ramp we needed to take had a long line behind it. Our cab drove onto the shoulder, sped past dozens of cars, and continued riding the shoulder down the exit ramp until it closed, and finally merged into a proper lane.
Another example: People who've visited or lived in China have probably noticed that many people spit phlem on the sidewalks. Is it illegal to do this? Yep. Does anybody care? Not unless there's a cop around, and most times even the cops don't care.
Another example: Jaywalking. It's illegal. Next time you go to China, count how many jaywalkers there are.
Besides basic mannerisms, Chinese people are also amoral when dealing with business. Anyone who's been in China for a while has probably learned to bargain wherever they go. Those that don't soon find out they're getting charged 50%, double, or even triple more than the going price.
Why would a merchant knowingly rip off an innocent customer, charging them double the going rate? Simple, because they can.
Chinese businessmen don't view their clients as a valuable asset, the way many western businesses do. They view their clients as walking piggie-banks. They don't care if you find out that they charged you double, and never purchase from them again.
Is there customer service in China? Sure, but only because offering this service nets you more clients.
Example of merchants ripping you off: The place we stayed at in China needed the heating system fixed. My parents were out running errands when the handyman came. He was roughly my age, and a friendly guy. We talked as he worked. After he was finished, he wrote up a receipt for me, with a sum of 2000 RMB. My dad said the job was supposed to take 50-100.
I had no idea he was ripping me off, and after poking around, I could only come up with 1000 RMB in the house. He took it, and said he'd be back later. It was only after my Dad came back that I found out he'd charged me roughly 4-5 times what the actual cost was.
This guy was from a legitimate company, drove a company moped, and had a shirt with the company logo on it. He was perfectly nice and amiable. He also didn't blink an eye when he was price gouging me.
More common-knowledge examples of Chinese amorality are the "guanxi" or "connections" you have to have to do anything in China.
Are you sick? Do you want the best medical service? I hope you've got guanxi with the hospital adminsitrator, or one of the staff members.
Need a reservation on a busy night? Guanxi will get you a good table.
Long line at the bank? Guanxi. Cops harassing you? Guanxi. Want a good deal on a hot item at the mall? Guanxi. Want that promotion? Guanxi.
Do "connections" get you stuff in the west? Sure! But it's not ingrained to the level it is in China. Imagine if everything you did was affected by what connections you had.
And how do you get these connections? Well, some guanxi is formed though years of mutual friendship. Maybe your college buddy works at a restaurant, and since you know him, you can always get a good seat.
Most of the time though, guanxi is formed through money.
Common example: It's the norm for doctors, especially surgeons in China, to receive sums of money before operations. It's not part of the official bill, but you can be sure that you better have that little red envelope ready for your surgeon.
Another example that everyone knows about is how you have to have guanxi with the government if you want to do business in China.
Haha, that brings me back to times when I was visiting the homeland =)
Great examples of how connections get you places in China.
Just wanted to address a subpoint about Chinese culture and it's people:
I am Chinese. I recently visited Shanghai on vacation in December, 2009.
The people who have been commenting that Chinese morality and socially acceptable behavior are worlds different from western countries are correct.
China prides itself on its economic development and how close it has come to the west in the past decades. However, it only has a facsimile of a moral structure or social rules. The clearest way to describe how an average Chinese person thinks about right and wrong is this: get away with what you can, and don't get caught. That and "make as much money as you can, using any method you can get away with."
Anyone who's ever been in a Chinese city has probably ridden a taxi there. For most westerners, it was probably a frightening experience. 3 cars sharing 2 lanes on the highway. Lane changes in the middle of intersections. Not stopping for pedestrians unless they're about to hit and kill them. Etc.
Are there traffic laws in China? Sure there are. Use your turn signals, cars making turns yield to oncoming traffic, etc. However, drivers simply don't follow any of these laws unless there's a cop car near them. Their mindset is: "drive however you want, and as long as you don't hit anything, good for you." They will take any number of shortcuts and make erratic lane changes whenever they want to cut time.
Two examples: My family hailed a cab at an intersection. The cab was on the left turn lane, but we needed to turn right. As soon as the light turned green, the cab driver hit the gas, cut right across 4 lanes of traffic, and made a right turn from the left turn lane. Another one is, we were in a cab coming back from the airport, and the exit ramp we needed to take had a long line behind it. Our cab drove onto the shoulder, sped past dozens of cars, and continued riding the shoulder down the exit ramp until it closed, and finally merged into a proper lane.
Another example: People who've visited or lived in China have probably noticed that many people spit phlem on the sidewalks. Is it illegal to do this? Yep. Does anybody care? Not unless there's a cop around, and most times even the cops don't care.
Another example: Jaywalking. It's illegal. Next time you go to China, count how many jaywalkers there are.
Besides basic mannerisms, Chinese people are also amoral when dealing with business. Anyone who's been in China for a while has probably learned to bargain wherever they go. Those that don't soon find out they're getting charged 50%, double, or even triple more than the going price.
Why would a merchant knowingly rip off an innocent customer, charging them double the going rate? Simple, because they can.
Chinese businessmen don't view their clients as a valuable asset, the way many western businesses do. They view their clients as walking piggie-banks. They don't care if you find out that they charged you double, and never purchase from them again.
Is there customer service in China? Sure, but only because offering this service nets you more clients.
Example of merchants ripping you off: The place we stayed at in China needed the heating system fixed. My parents were out running errands when the handyman came. He was roughly my age, and a friendly guy. We talked as he worked. After he was finished, he wrote up a receipt for me, with a sum of 2000 RMB. My dad said the job was supposed to take 50-100.
I had no idea he was ripping me off, and after poking around, I could only come up with 1000 RMB in the house. He took it, and said he'd be back later. It was only after my Dad came back that I found out he'd charged me roughly 4-5 times what the actual cost was.
This guy was from a legitimate company, drove a company moped, and had a shirt with the company logo on it. He was perfectly nice and amiable. He also didn't blink an eye when he was price gouging me.
More common-knowledge examples of Chinese amorality are the "guanxi" or "connections" you have to have to do anything in China.
Are you sick? Do you want the best medical service? I hope you've got guanxi with the hospital adminsitrator, or one of the staff members.
Need a reservation on a busy night? Guanxi will get you a good table.
Long line at the bank? Guanxi. Cops harassing you? Guanxi. Want a good deal on a hot item at the mall? Guanxi. Want that promotion? Guanxi.
Do "connections" get you stuff in the west? Sure! But it's not ingrained to the level it is in China. Imagine if everything you did was affected by what connections you had.
And how do you get these connections? Well, some guanxi is formed though years of mutual friendship. Maybe your college buddy works at a restaurant, and since you know him, you can always get a good seat.
Most of the time though, guanxi is formed through money.
Common example: It's the norm for doctors, especially surgeons in China, to receive sums of money before operations. It's not part of the official bill, but you can be sure that you better have that little red envelope ready for your surgeon.
Another example that everyone knows about is how you have to have guanxi with the government if you want to do business in China.
Very accurate description of how things work in China. Westerners who never been to China should read this.
madcow is generally correct. To many people unfamiliar with this culture, this would seem downright brutish and appalling. I want to make it clear that China doesn't function this way because we feel this is the way things ought to be, that it's "right." we do it because it is the most efficient way of doing things. The thing that westerners have a difficult time understanding is that vague ideas like morality and subjectivity will ALWAYS, without a fail, take a back seat to efficiency and results, concrete things that we can see the benefit of. When it does not inconvenience us, we can be perfectly moral and perhaps even more so than most other countries. When that comes into conflict with something else, however, we'll discard it without batting an eye. It's just a different set of priorities.
Without making too large a deal out of it, Chinese tourists in europe are the worst. No respect, no grasp of the foreign languages, and seemingly no inerest in learning about their cultures. Basically the opposite of Japanese tourists oddly enough.
On January 21 2010 17:16 jfazz wrote: Without making too large a deal out of it, Chinese tourists in europe are the worst. No respect, no grasp of the foreign languages, and seemingly no inerest in learning about their cultures. Basically the opposite of Japanese tourists oddly enough.
Aren't most tourists, by definition, lacking in a grasp of a foreign language?
Chinese tourists are just inconsiderate of western customs, seeing as they're so alien. I totally understand this image of Chinese tourists, and have observed it many times. It really does tend to be "cultural differences" though. Trust me, Chinese people think American/European tourists are just as bad.
In europe, no. Europeans, for the most part speak multiple languages. Most tourists in europe are other europeans. Many caucasians have some idea of one of the main european languages (french, italian, spanish or german). It never seems like the Chinese have any idea. Ive seen chinese tourists taking photos inside catholic churches where it says "no photos" (even in chinese), dropping designer clothes in stores and not expecting to get dirty looks. Lack of class respect?
If chinese people look down on european tourists it may be because they see to think they are better than everyone else, basically everyone wants to learn more about china and embrace its heritage. Its really interesting, engaging stuff. Its unecesary to take the position that it is superior to european history however.
On January 21 2010 17:39 jfazz wrote: In europe, no. Europeans, for the most part speak multiple languages. Most tourists in europe are other europeans. Many caucasians have some idea of one of the main european languages (french, italian, spanish or german). It never seems like the Chinese have any idea. Ive seen chinese tourists taking photos inside catholic churches where it says "no photos" (even in chinese), dropping designer clothes in stores and not expecting to get dirty looks. Lack of class respect?
These things that you list as so odd and disrespectful are common practices in China, so yeah, that's probably why haha.
If chinese people look down on european tourists it may be because they see to think they are better than everyone else, basically everyone wants to learn more about china and embrace its heritage. Its really interesting, engaging stuff. Its unecesary to take the position that it is superior to european history however.
[b]It's the opposite, really. General attitude in China is that the west always sees itself as the superior one (see: century of humiliation, etc.) and, today, is always meddling in other people's business (applies more towards the US).
Thats pretty bad dude I guess thats why when you travel (as a european) in an asian country, everyone is surprised when you thank them, or help them when they are trying to serve you. They doesnt seem to be a lot of value placed on common courtesy.
If I can ask, why is chinese culture, in your opinion, so different to either a) south east asian culture (notably malaysia or singapore) or b) japanese culture
when specifically discussing how they treat others.
Oh and do the chinese people feel that the west sees itself as superior because they meet people from the west, or because the chinese government tells them that the west sees themselves as superior? As someone with exposure to both worlds, what is your stance. Say whatever you want, im very interested, and I certainly won't get mad!
On January 21 2010 16:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: he thing that westerners have a difficult time understanding is that vague ideas like morality and subjectivity will ALWAYS, without a fail, take a back seat to efficiency and results, concrete things that we can see the benefit of. When it does not inconvenience us, we can be perfectly moral and perhaps even more so than most other countries. When that comes into conflict with something else, however, we'll discard it without batting an eye. It's just a different set of priorities.
How is it a system of morals if you're never going to pay attention to it when it works against your better interests? Functionally, I can't see much difference between such a system and no system whatsoever. Morality is defined by the ability to make the right choice when it works against your better interests.
This isn't to say that Chinese aren't moral, because I know plenty of Chinese students and workers over here and they're like anybody else in that some are good people, others are complete pricks. However, from what I've seen in China, there seems to be a lot of diffusion of responsibility in the large cities which I guess comes from their enormous size and density. There seems to be large disconnect though for a society that values social cohesion so strongly yet cannot see the result of the aggregate effect of their actions.
On January 21 2010 17:55 jfazz wrote: Thats pretty bad dude I guess thats why when you travel (as a european) in an asian country, everyone is surprised when you thank them, or help them when they are trying to serve you. They doesnt seem to be a lot of value placed on common courtesy.
If I can ask, why is chinese culture, in your opinion, so different to either a) south east asian culture (notably malaysia or singapore) or b) japanese culture
when specifically discussing how they treat others.
The seeming lack of common courtesy is because China went through a few thousand years of excessive courtesy and rules governing interactions that it's not seen as a relic of the past, and is a kind of reaction against it.
Can't say about Malaysia, but Singapore is very British influenced, so it's essentially a western city, and Japan purposefully tried to distance itself from China and turn towards the Europeans during the Meiji restoration, which is why the Japanese language today is so distinct from Chinese despite being a direct descendant of Chinese.
The attitude towards the west is more due to how the west presents itself than how the Chinese portrays the west. This is from a government perspective, where the Chinese will always see the European and American governments declaring how the rest of the world should function, and assume that the Western average citizen shares the same attitude. As you'll note, not many Asian countries go around telling Western countries how their country should be run, and expect the Western countries to do the same, and are offended when this doesn't happen.
Well the people from China who could afford to go to Europe are usually wealthy government officials or wealthy businessman who don't have to follow the laws in China. Those guys go 120 in a freeway marked for 60 and the cops won't dare to try to stop them cause their license plate starts with a A. (A means government official).
On January 21 2010 11:41 madcow305 wrote: Just wanted to address a subpoint about Chinese culture and it's people:
I am Chinese. I recently visited Shanghai on vacation in December, 2009.
The people who have been commenting that Chinese morality and socially acceptable behavior are worlds different from western countries are correct.
China prides itself on its economic development and how close it has come to the west in the past decades. However, it only has a facsimile of a moral structure or social rules. The clearest way to describe how an average Chinese person thinks about right and wrong is this: get away with what you can, and don't get caught. That and "make as much money as you can, using any method you can get away with."
Anyone who's ever been in a Chinese city has probably ridden a taxi there. For most westerners, it was probably a frightening experience. 3 cars sharing 2 lanes on the highway. Lane changes in the middle of intersections. Not stopping for pedestrians unless they're about to hit and kill them. Etc.
Are there traffic laws in China? Sure there are. Use your turn signals, cars making turns yield to oncoming traffic, etc. However, drivers simply don't follow any of these laws unless there's a cop car near them. Their mindset is: "drive however you want, and as long as you don't hit anything, good for you." They will take any number of shortcuts and make erratic lane changes whenever they want to cut time.
Two examples: My family hailed a cab at an intersection. The cab was on the left turn lane, but we needed to turn right. As soon as the light turned green, the cab driver hit the gas, cut right across 4 lanes of traffic, and made a right turn from the left turn lane. Another one is, we were in a cab coming back from the airport, and the exit ramp we needed to take had a long line behind it. Our cab drove onto the shoulder, sped past dozens of cars, and continued riding the shoulder down the exit ramp until it closed, and finally merged into a proper lane.
Another example: People who've visited or lived in China have probably noticed that many people spit phlem on the sidewalks. Is it illegal to do this? Yep. Does anybody care? Not unless there's a cop around, and most times even the cops don't care.
Another example: Jaywalking. It's illegal. Next time you go to China, count how many jaywalkers there are.
Besides basic mannerisms, Chinese people are also amoral when dealing with business. Anyone who's been in China for a while has probably learned to bargain wherever they go. Those that don't soon find out they're getting charged 50%, double, or even triple more than the going price.
Why would a merchant knowingly rip off an innocent customer, charging them double the going rate? Simple, because they can.
Chinese businessmen don't view their clients as a valuable asset, the way many western businesses do. They view their clients as walking piggie-banks. They don't care if you find out that they charged you double, and never purchase from them again.
Is there customer service in China? Sure, but only because offering this service nets you more clients.
Example of merchants ripping you off: The place we stayed at in China needed the heating system fixed. My parents were out running errands when the handyman came. He was roughly my age, and a friendly guy. We talked as he worked. After he was finished, he wrote up a receipt for me, with a sum of 2000 RMB. My dad said the job was supposed to take 50-100.
I had no idea he was ripping me off, and after poking around, I could only come up with 1000 RMB in the house. He took it, and said he'd be back later. It was only after my Dad came back that I found out he'd charged me roughly 4-5 times what the actual cost was.
This guy was from a legitimate company, drove a company moped, and had a shirt with the company logo on it. He was perfectly nice and amiable. He also didn't blink an eye when he was price gouging me.
More common-knowledge examples of Chinese amorality are the "guanxi" or "connections" you have to have to do anything in China.
Are you sick? Do you want the best medical service? I hope you've got guanxi with the hospital adminsitrator, or one of the staff members.
Need a reservation on a busy night? Guanxi will get you a good table.
Long line at the bank? Guanxi. Cops harassing you? Guanxi. Want a good deal on a hot item at the mall? Guanxi. Want that promotion? Guanxi.
Do "connections" get you stuff in the west? Sure! But it's not ingrained to the level it is in China. Imagine if everything you did was affected by what connections you had.
And how do you get these connections? Well, some guanxi is formed though years of mutual friendship. Maybe your college buddy works at a restaurant, and since you know him, you can always get a good seat.
Most of the time though, guanxi is formed through money.
Common example: It's the norm for doctors, especially surgeons in China, to receive sums of money before operations. It's not part of the official bill, but you can be sure that you better have that little red envelope ready for your surgeon.
Another example that everyone knows about is how you have to have guanxi with the government if you want to do business in China.
On January 21 2010 17:39 jfazz wrote: In europe, no. Europeans, for the most part speak multiple languages. Most tourists in europe are other europeans. Many caucasians have some idea of one of the main european languages (french, italian, spanish or german). It never seems like the Chinese have any idea.
I'm impressed that all of my european friends who study or are travelling here (australia) speak a number of languages (because australians generally don't). But I'd hasten to point out that most of them don't speak japanese, korean, mandarin, vietnamese. Do most germans speak fluent vietnamese? Do most french citizens speak passable korean?
Mgmt in google simply doesnt know how to do business in China. Most Wall Street businesses operate like how you would file a tax return - very systematic and plainly laid out. That model simply doesnt work in China.
A friend of mine works for a listed company that has operations in China. They regularly wine and dine gov't officials and offer them gifts, despite the law specifically forbids such a practice. They are not doing this to bribe the officials, but in practice, if you don't offer them gifts, they will use their authority to send wave after wave of inspectors after your company to hand pick problems out of you. In essence, they treat this as paying a license fee to operate business in China.
Google simply doesnt get this, if you want to operate there, you gotta live by their rules. Search providers are required to censor results long before Google.cn was active, Google simply walked into a wall.
On January 21 2010 17:39 jfazz wrote: In europe, no. Europeans, for the most part speak multiple languages. Most tourists in europe are other europeans. Many caucasians have some idea of one of the main european languages (french, italian, spanish or german). It never seems like the Chinese have any idea.
I'm impressed that all of my european friends who study or are travelling here (australia) speak a number of languages (because australians generally don't).
How many foreign language speaking countries do you have right next to you (or in driving distance - lol). Basically the same for us. Hard to learn a language (really learn it) without being able to speak it frequently with native speakers.
On March 15 2010 14:37 dybydx wrote: Mgmt in google simply doesnt know how to do business in China. Most Wall Street businesses operate like how you would file a tax return - very systematic and plainly laid out. That model simply doesnt work in China.
A friend of mine works for a listed company that has operations in China. They regularly wine and dine gov't officials and offer them gifts, despite the law specifically forbids such a practice. They are not doing this to bribe the officials, but in practice, if you don't offer them gifts, they will use their authority to send wave after wave of inspectors after your company to hand pick problems out of you. In essence, they treat this as paying a license fee to operate business in China.
But people charge expensive meals to their companies all the time here. It's hardly unique to China.
On March 15 2010 14:37 dybydx wrote: Mgmt in google simply doesnt know how to do business in China. Most Wall Street businesses operate like how you would file a tax return - very systematic and plainly laid out. That model simply doesnt work in China.
A friend of mine works for a listed company that has operations in China. They regularly wine and dine gov't officials and offer them gifts, despite the law specifically forbids such a practice. They are not doing this to bribe the officials, but in practice, if you don't offer them gifts, they will use their authority to send wave after wave of inspectors after your company to hand pick problems out of you. In essence, they treat this as paying a license fee to operate business in China.
But people charge expensive meals to their companies all the time here. It's hardly unique to China.
irrelevant. he's saying that its standard practice for companies to essentially bribe government officials in order to keep operating
On January 13 2010 09:19 mucker wrote: Google is a public company. They were happy to censor their results and put up with the Chinese government when they thought they could make money there. Most likely this means they aren't making enough money in China to justify staying there and have been looking for a way to pull out but get a public relations win out of it. Though I would imagine fending off the Chinese government's hackers would raise your operating costs quite a bit.
On March 15 2010 14:37 dybydx wrote: Mgmt in google simply doesnt know how to do business in China. Most Wall Street businesses operate like how you would file a tax return - very systematic and plainly laid out. That model simply doesnt work in China.
A friend of mine works for a listed company that has operations in China. They regularly wine and dine gov't officials and offer them gifts, despite the law specifically forbids such a practice. They are not doing this to bribe the officials, but in practice, if you don't offer them gifts, they will use their authority to send wave after wave of inspectors after your company to hand pick problems out of you. In essence, they treat this as paying a license fee to operate business in China.
Google simply doesnt get this, if you want to operate there, you gotta live by their rules. Search providers are required to censor results long before Google.cn was active, Google simply walked into a wall.
And you really think Google doesn't know this? This stuff is taught in undergraduate college courses.
On January 21 2010 17:16 jfazz wrote: Without making too large a deal out of it, Chinese tourists in europe are the worst. No respect, no grasp of the foreign languages, and seemingly no inerest in learning about their cultures. Basically the opposite of Japanese tourists oddly enough.
When I worked for customs in Canada, German and British travelers were the absolute worst, nobody else was even in their league. Funny how anecdotal evidence works eh?
On January 21 2010 17:16 jfazz wrote: Without making too large a deal out of it, Chinese tourists in europe are the worst. No respect, no grasp of the foreign languages, and seemingly no inerest in learning about their cultures. Basically the opposite of Japanese tourists oddly enough.
When I worked for customs in Canada, German and British travelers were the absolute worst, nobody else was even in their league. Funny how anecdotal evidence works eh?
When I worked service in America, I find Americans to be the worst.
Wait, I screwed that up.
Anyone not from my town, and not me were the worst.
/get off my lawn
On a more serious note, I go to a university that prides itself on Medicine and Engineering, so as expected, we have a pretty heavy emphasis on foreign student visas from the Asian region. I've seen all kinds. I find that in most cases, few international, non-English speaking countries in the south-east Asian area don't quite grasp social norms. This isn't a shot at them, not by a long shot, its just cultural differences. It seems like the idea of, "a common good" isn't as strong as it should be in a 'communist' country as it is in a republic.
On January 21 2010 17:16 jfazz wrote: Without making too large a deal out of it, Chinese tourists in europe are the worst. No respect, no grasp of the foreign languages, and seemingly no inerest in learning about their cultures. Basically the opposite of Japanese tourists oddly enough.
When I worked for customs in Canada, German and British travelers were the absolute worst, nobody else was even in their league. Funny how anecdotal evidence works eh?
I also hardly see Chinese tourists being all that bad. I've recently helped 2 guys from China which came to my city as a part of ISEC program and they seemed pretty ok compared to some other tourists we have around here. The worst and most oblivious to everything are people from the USA. They don't even bother to try to be polite, learn anything about the country they're visiting etc.
On January 21 2010 17:16 jfazz wrote: Without making too large a deal out of it, Chinese tourists in europe are the worst. No respect, no grasp of the foreign languages, and seemingly no inerest in learning about their cultures. Basically the opposite of Japanese tourists oddly enough.
When I worked for customs in Canada, German and British travelers were the absolute worst, nobody else was even in their league. Funny how anecdotal evidence works eh?
On a more serious note, I go to a university that prides itself on Medicine and Engineering, so as expected, we have a pretty heavy emphasis on foreign student visas from the Asian region. I've seen all kinds. I find that in most cases, few international, non-English speaking countries in the south-east Asian area don't quite grasp social norms. This isn't a shot at them, not by a long shot, its just cultural differences. It seems like the idea of, "a common good" isn't as strong as it should be in a 'communist' country as it is in a republic.
You know not all Asian countries are communist? Only China, North Korea, Laos, and Vietnam are communist. I doubt being in a communist country has to do with not understanding social norms. Asians don't understand American social norms the same way Americans don't understand Asian social norms.
I just want to say how mannered and mature (mostly) everyone in this thread is. It's pleasant surprise and sharp departure from the normal "lol stfu I've been there" type of political discussion that usually goes on (especially involving China). GJ all.
On March 15 2010 14:37 dybydx wrote: Mgmt in google simply doesnt know how to do business in China. Most Wall Street businesses operate like how you would file a tax return - very systematic and plainly laid out. That model simply doesnt work in China.
A friend of mine works for a listed company that has operations in China. They regularly wine and dine gov't officials and offer them gifts, despite the law specifically forbids such a practice. They are not doing this to bribe the officials, but in practice, if you don't offer them gifts, they will use their authority to send wave after wave of inspectors after your company to hand pick problems out of you. In essence, they treat this as paying a license fee to operate business in China.
Google simply doesnt get this, if you want to operate there, you gotta live by their rules. Search providers are required to censor results long before Google.cn was active, Google simply walked into a wall.
well said. this post shows the most insight and understanding of both chinese practices as well as modern congolmerate run corporate ignor-arrogance. should probably be the end of this thread.
It's all been said a billion times already, and I've whittled it all down to the absolute essentials. the avg outsider's view, the corporation's view, the avg chinese view, and the CCP's view are all different
avg american knows swat. with them it's basically the "if it were me" case and is never considered from the perspective of the actual concerned. when people start throwing around words like commie and regime, it's time to get down or get out.
corporation's view is about the same as the west indies co. a century ago - make money, seize market, consolidate. not to say they're faultless cus no gov. is, but this is why CCP is necessary. china would not be a world player today without a strong gov.
avg chinese, now this gets interesting. the avg chinese sees their relationship with the gov. body as that of a co-op, whereas in the west it's one of adversarial. no surprise there as china has been dynastic for ever and ever. the vast vast majority's fine with the going ons, cus hell, life has never been better for the last 90 years.
and the CCP, chinese communist party. they see themselves as the gatekeeper of the chinese culture. their biggest fear is the loss of 5000 years of culture to a glitzy foreign consumerist culture.
I'd say one party politics makes sense for china given the history. if not for one party politics china would never have made its comeback. CCP needs take less time in tightening things and moving things along, aka more laws to close loopholes, cut down corruption like any country, spread the wealth around faster, and respond to citizens issues with more of a show like the US gov, even if you don't do jack (cus you can get away with anything if you're polite), etc.
On March 15 2010 14:37 dybydx wrote: Mgmt in google simply doesnt know how to do business in China. Most Wall Street businesses operate like how you would file a tax return - very systematic and plainly laid out. That model simply doesnt work in China.
A friend of mine works for a listed company that has operations in China. They regularly wine and dine gov't officials and offer them gifts, despite the law specifically forbids such a practice. They are not doing this to bribe the officials, but in practice, if you don't offer them gifts, they will use their authority to send wave after wave of inspectors after your company to hand pick problems out of you. In essence, they treat this as paying a license fee to operate business in China.
Google simply doesnt get this, if you want to operate there, you gotta live by their rules. Search providers are required to censor results long before Google.cn was active, Google simply walked into a wall.
lmao that's true for everything from weddings to funerals, chinese get together and eat, gift, etc. if you don't wine and dine it's considered a disrespect.
it's in the culture dude, that's the m.o. especially for a foreign company trying to make the chinese money. this is the absolute basics buddy. they see you as a foreign entity and given the history would just love to dopeslap you and tell you to GTFO. but china in the last 50, 60 years has learned quite a bit and is putting business first. sooo learn the culture of social dealings, the chinese way.
On January 13 2010 09:19 mucker wrote: Google is a public company. They were happy to censor their results and put up with the Chinese government when they thought they could make money there. Most likely this means they aren't making enough money in China to justify staying there and have been looking for a way to pull out but get a public relations win out of it. Though I would imagine fending off the Chinese government's hackers would raise your operating costs quite a bit.
Having a smaller portion of one of the biggest pies in the world is no small thing, and very profitable I imagine. A smaller portion of a bigger pie can, and often is, better than a bigger portion of a smaller pie.
A lot of people are making excellent points, but for a situation that doesn't accurately describe what's happening in reality. This isn't just about Google not knowing how to do business in China. Anyone from the outside who's studied even a little bit about China knows that things are done a certain way in China. It's not an issue of Google not knowing those things, there's more to it than that.
The cyber attacks are far more significant than most people here are recognizing. Until the government is willing to be more cooperative in regards to such cyber attacks, what else can Google do? They can wine and dine all they want, but that doesn't change the fact that cyber attacks will continue. Google's attempting to make a stand, and although the effort may be futile, they can't really afford to stick around and not do anything either.
You know, most people in China really aren't very aware of the cyber attacks at all, and even the articles linked in here point out that the government is very restrictive about what they're revealing regarding the situation. Which is honestly a shame because that's probably the biggest issue concerning this entire situation, yet so many people (including many here) are not giving it the acknowledgement that it deserves. Whether it's from their own ignorance or simply from not having all of the information, it's something that changes one's perception of the situation entirely. You cannot ignore it and have a relevant discussion about this situation.
That said, this really isn't very surprising at all, because it was obvious all along that the government won't back down or give in to what Google wants. And of course, Google can't simply just stick around and put up with the situation either. It's unfortunate, but at least as I see it, there's not many other alternatives at the moment. But, this is still a very significant event because as various articles have stated, this does set the tone for other foreign companies trying to do business in China, and for those who are willing to pay attention, it also points out the reality of China's participation in cyber attacks and how that will affect business operations.
I think the cultural discussion here is extremely interesting, but unfortunately, it just seems so out of place... This situation just isn't about the cultural differences. They might play a part, but they're really not the main issue here.
I absolutely doubt Google is shutting down cause of "gov't attacks". The US gov't tap into domestic phone calls, library records and banking records etc. Do you see any banks saying they are gonna shut down cause its invasion of privacy?
Besides, Google make it sound like 1) they are so sure its the Chinese gov responsible for the attacks, 2) Chinese gov are the ONLY ones that make those attacks. Would you honestly believe that the US gov doesnt spy on Chinese businesses too? The US congress gets intel reports on China like every year. Where you think those numbers come from? And why doesnt Google tell ppl about Chinese gov't official accounts being hacked into by US agents?
Google just ran a failed business and making up lame excuses for themselves. Its already reported that due to Chinese having different online spending habits, Google.cn isnt profitable.
Also, Google's announcement that they will no longer censor search results has absolutely nothing to do with cyber attacks. Its obvious that the Chinese gov't isnt going to change their censorship laws overnight to accommodate Google. So Google is just trying to pull off a PR stunt.
On March 16 2010 01:03 dybydx wrote: Google just ran a failed business and making up lame excuses for themselves. Its already reported that due to Chinese having different online spending habits, Google.cn isnt profitable.
Google had 30% of one of the world's largest online markets. That's hardly a failure.
On March 16 2010 03:06 dybydx wrote: From a market share perspective, Google is the #2 search engine used in China, but Google was unable to generate profit at the end of the day.
They also launched a music download service much like Apple's iTune Store but its not working out either.
Other Google services and sites like YouTube (also owned by Google) are blocked completely in China.
Google's business model simply didn't work there as it worked elsewhere.
I'd be interested in knowing why they weren't able to make a profit since their main income comes from the ads shown with every search, and as the #2 player in a very large market that's a lot of searches.
On March 16 2010 03:06 dybydx wrote: From a market share perspective, Google is the #2 search engine used in China, but Google was unable to generate profit at the end of the day.
They also launched a music download service much like Apple's iTune Store but its not working out either.
Other Google services and sites like YouTube (also owned by Google) are blocked completely in China.
Google's business model simply didn't work there as it worked elsewhere.
I'd be interested in knowing why they weren't able to make a profit since their main income comes from the ads shown with every search, and as the #2 player in a very large market that's a lot of searches.
I don't think there ever was any irrefutable evidence to say that google never made a profit in China (Certainly none so far from this thread). Any company on the ball should at least break even. I would say that google.cn was doing a little better than break even but definitely not up to the projected potential versus market opportunities.
It would be a little weird to think that a company like google where talent and smart thinking is so valued can not grasp the simple dynamics of doing business in China. It's not exactly rocket science and majority of their Chinese operations are Chinese born residents.
My bet is that the general clash of culture of google's own values and the fact that they can not gain a favourable position versus local entities (who wields superior influences and resources). Maybe to a point where the google executives see it as a pointless operation and one that is better served by shutting it down.
The real issue I would hypothesis is the fact that no foreign own company is allowed dominance in a Chinese sector without partial Chinese control of assets. This isn't exactly new and I think is where google really struggle to come to terms with and this issue could be fatal for a company whose main assets are intellectual property. They got Lee (A respected oversea Chinese, formal microsoft executive) to fix the problem but he failed then he started his own company.
Combine that and the fact that Chinese government would not grant google any sort of favourable policy.
They need someone who can crack the conservative regime. Someone in high places who can protect and guarantee google's interests (namely intellectual properties and against underhand moves to undermine google's endeavours). Both are crucial to gain a foothold in China. But then again there are no free lunch, for anything you take, you must give.
Google's game relies on a non interfering market and openness; both are absent in modern Chinese business.
I for one am glad that google made a stand on this even the little use it did.
On March 16 2010 03:30 madsweepslol wrote: I'd be interested in knowing why they weren't able to make a profit since their main income comes from the ads shown with every search, and as the #2 player in a very large market that's a lot of searches.
I got that info from seeking alpha, one of the better known US based sites that discuss investments.
The original article I read pointed out that Google's revenue model ultimately depended on users to spend money online which is not how the culture works in China, so from a Wall Street prespective, the Google.cn operation was essentially a lost cause.
What ever the case may be, Google simply cant adapt itself to operate in China and its obvious that China isnt going to change laws to adapt to Google, so Google decided to throw in the towel.
On March 16 2010 03:30 madsweepslol wrote: I'd be interested in knowing why they weren't able to make a profit since their main income comes from the ads shown with every search, and as the #2 player in a very large market that's a lot of searches.
I got that info from seeking alpha, one of the better known US based sites that discuss investments.
The original article I read pointed out that Google's revenue model ultimately depended on users to spend money online which is not how the culture works in China, so from a Wall Street prespective, the Google.cn operation was essentially a lost cause.
What ever the case may be, Google simply cant adapt itself to operate in China and its obvious that China isnt going to change laws to adapt to Google, so Google decided to throw in the towel.
Wow, interesting article. I'm very surprised Google wasn't able to glean more from the largest internet user base in the world. Thanks for posting. ^^
Can someone explain why Google wouldn't be profitable in China? I know that Chinese people are more conservative in general but would that affect the income generated by ads?
Probably because consumer habits differ enough that Google can not sell to local business that their ad => increase exposure etc.
That and the fact that google do not dominate search engine traffic in the country meaning that google's traditional strength do not generate profit that's enough to justify continual operations.
Again I find it doubtful that their ad operation alone is losing ground. They have less than 200 employees in China and their business assets are entirely I.P meaning that they do not waste money on local assets. The recent hacking could have provoked a feeling that losing IP to Chinese hackers is more damaging than the money that it make in the country.
while google may not be loosing tons on google.cn, its obviously not getting Wall-Street-expectation returns, desoite google.cn has about the same user base as US users of google.com. this means google.cn has to have some excellent growth expectation (income-wise) in the future to justify continuing operation.
but... operating a website in the PRC has a lot of regulation. ie, June 4 is "internet maintenance day" that many websites "voluntarily" shut down their forum service. this is just 1 of the peculiar things that happens in China.
i m pretty damn sure hacking alone wasnt their reason to exit. besides, if ur mgmt, you would rather find a scapegoat than admit your own incompetence in improving the company's fortune.
On March 16 2010 03:30 madsweepslol wrote: I'd be interested in knowing why they weren't able to make a profit since their main income comes from the ads shown with every search, and as the #2 player in a very large market that's a lot of searches.
I got that info from seeking alpha, one of the better known US based sites that discuss investments.
The original article I read pointed out that Google's revenue model ultimately depended on users to spend money online which is not how the culture works in China, so from a Wall Street prespective, the Google.cn operation was essentially a lost cause.
What ever the case may be, Google simply cant adapt itself to operate in China and its obvious that China isnt going to change laws to adapt to Google, so Google decided to throw in the towel.
unless i am mistaken google makes profit the same way every other search engine makes profit, by selling ads. it would be absurd to think that google would simply give up on the largest market in the world because they are currently operating at a loss (assuming they actually do operate at a loss).
you've made a lot of assumptions in this thread that you do not backup at all such as google china operating at a loss.
On March 16 2010 03:06 dybydx wrote: From a market share perspective, Google is the #2 search engine used in China, but Google was unable to generate profit at the end of the day.
They also launched a music download service much like Apple's iTune Store but its not working out either.
Other Google services and sites like YouTube (also owned by Google) are blocked completely in China.
Google's business model simply didn't work there as it worked elsewhere.
I'd be interested in knowing why they weren't able to make a profit since their main income comes from the ads shown with every search, and as the #2 player in a very large market that's a lot of searches.
I don't think there ever was any irrefutable evidence to say that google never made a profit in China (Certainly none so far from this thread). Any company on the ball should at least break even. I would say that google.cn was doing a little better than break even but definitely not up to the projected potential versus market opportunities.
it hasn't been proven that google.cn was operating at a loss either. it would be nice to see a source for this which i don't think is possible entirely possible unless google themselves come out and say it.
This is the first ever-published operating revenue of Google China, though it comes via a third party. The report says that the overall scale of China's search engine market was CNY4.664 billion in the same period, a year-on-year increase of 75.8%. The Chinese search engine provider Baidu.com, along with Google China, still dominated the Chinese search engine market.
In regards to revenue, Baidu made CNY2.275 billion in the first three quarters of 2008.
the figure still proves that google.cn isnt improving google's fortune by much, if at all. despite there are 384M of Chinese internet users vs 227M in USA.
you have to see this from a wall-street perspective. they run a business for money. when was the last time you heard a big business on wall-street shut down because of ethical concerns? certainly didnt happen with AIG, Goldman Sachs, Citi or any of the Big Oil companies? Microsoft is even notorious for their business practice.
wall-street business doesnt shutdown for human rights reasons, they do so for the bottom line.
[in related news, google.cn's exec, Lee, left google in sep 2009. it was known at the time relations between google and the PRC gov was "bad".]
the figure still proves that google.cn isnt improving google's fortune by much, if at all. despite there are 384M of Chinese internet users vs 227M in USA.
you have to see this from a wall-street perspective. they run a business for money. when was the last time you heard a big business on wall-street shut down because of ethical concerns? certainly didnt happen with AIG, Goldman Sachs, Citi or any of the Big Oil companies? Microsoft is even notorious for their business practice.
wall-street business doesnt shutdown for human rights reasons, they do so for the bottom line.
[in related news, google.cn's exec, Lee, left google in sep 2009. it was known at the time relations between google and the PRC gov was "bad".]
you are basing your arguments on large assumptions again.
your argument is that google is pulling out of china because they cannot succeed when the nytimes article says they have 30% market share. regardless of whether they are making profit or not, packing up and leaving when you have 30% of the world's largest market doesn't make a whole lot of sense from any perspective. google has tons of operations that can absorb that cost easily if need be anyway. there may be other factors affecting this decision but i dont think google not knowing how to run a business is one of them.
how is it assumption? the fact is, google.cn is generating a pultry 300M USD revenue compared to 20B worldwide revenue. those numbers came from google.
and google.cn's CEO left the company in Sep 2009 saying they were having problems with the gov't policies all along.
So earlier today we stopped censoring our search services—Google Search, Google News, and Google Images—on Google.cn. Users visiting Google.cn are now being redirected to Google.com.hk, where we are offering uncensored search in simplified Chinese, specifically designed for users in mainland China and delivered via our servers in Hong Kong.
On March 21 2010 08:14 dybydx wrote: how is it assumption? the fact is, google.cn is generating a pultry 300M USD revenue compared to 20B worldwide revenue. those numbers came from google.
and google.cn's CEO left the company in Sep 2009 saying they were having problems with the gov't policies all along.
you're still not saying anything at all. google makes less in china than it does in the rest of the world. so what? i don't know where 20B comes from but i'm guess that isn't revenue within a quarter and even if it is, revenue does not equal profits. having problem with government policies is far different from what you were insinuated which was that google didn't know what it was getting itself into in terms of market strategy which is highly unlikely. a case could be made but you aren't really making a good one.
On March 21 2010 08:14 dybydx wrote: how is it assumption? the fact is, google.cn is generating a pultry 300M USD revenue compared to 20B worldwide revenue. those numbers came from google.
and google.cn's CEO left the company in Sep 2009 saying they were having problems with the gov't policies all along.
You start with a few factual statements, but continually move to more and more opinion that has no actual justification or support within your posts.
You are taking for granted that you: channel some mythic Wall Street viewpoint; understand complex corporations despite having no understanding, experience, or relevant data; and lastly and most laughably--you continually ignore what is probably the most important explanation of events by "seeing through" the press statements of the involved party.
I understand that we are here to talk about something that we don't actually understand, but a bit of parsimony would be nice. Let's have more speculation and less conspiracy theory.
On March 17 2010 09:29 haduken wrote: The recent hacking could have provoked a feeling that losing IP to Chinese hackers is more damaging than the money that it make in the country.
This is something that I think is a very important factor. I don't think that the hacking is the only factor at play here, not at all, but I definitely think it's not getting nearly the attention that it deserves. There's a lot that isn't being talked about by the news regarding these attacks, especially if you're following the Chinese sources. However, something like this is definitely significant enough to make a company rethink their current business situation. Many of you may not feel that the government could ever have had anything to do with this, but for those who actually know a bit about this sort of stuff, it's not so clear (disclaimer: whether other countries are just as bad or not is irrelevant here).
Again, that's really not the only issue involved, but it's definitely something that could easily push a company that's already facing pressures and difficulties from the host to rethink their situation. As mentioned before, and by multiple people, it would be quite naive and quite frankly ridiculous to assume that the issue is all about Google simply not knowing how to do business in China. It goes far deeper than that, and it goes deeper than whether or not Google is making money in China (they are). The hackings are not the only issue, but they could very well have been the last straw.
Either way, it's a shame that it came to this. I'm curious to see whether or not the government will block Google altogether, but either way I guess it's not a big deal. Many young people just use proxies or VPNs anyway, and even though it's annoying to have to fight a constant battle with the government over proxies, it's really not that difficult either.
Does it matter that much China has other search engines that follow their rules and Google will make money no matter what. I think they can live with out each other.
Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore.
On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote: Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore.
And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites.
On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote: Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore.
And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites.
Facebook is already blocked. I'm not sure about Twitter, but Youtube and Google are tied and the government is days away from blocking the Hong Kong site (if they haven't already). That one day was yesterday.
Google's action is just irresponsible. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with government policy, but to openly flaunt the policy, whether just or not, in the host nation you are doing business in is just absurd and disrespectful to the country.
On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote: Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore.
And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites.
Cultural lesson:
China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those" Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich."
the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all. this is the core issue of this topic but since most people prefer to talk about particulars let us examine the google case:
The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
Sites and their Chinese counterparts google.com - baidu.com both stocks trade for well above $500 a share with baidu usually fetching a higher price. youtube - youku.com facebook - kaixinwang.com, xiaonei.com ebay - taobao.com MSN messenger - QQ messenger Twitter - i forgot the name but there is a link on the qq page
The list goes on.. It is not the technological capability or the "freedom of speech" that they block but rather the brand, packaging, and content from the western site . I can blog on wordpress here behind the "greatfirewall" even without my internet hax. Its not blocked because there is not yet a better chinese counterpart (a testament to WP's brilliance, indeed).
For every hip, cool new website with a service there is an exact and sometimes better chinese replica.. for instance QQ messenger and its features, speed, etc is better than all else. taobao does not have a symbiotic relationship with a bloodsucking paypal-esque equivalent, etc.
The market in china is at least double the rest of the world for websites, gaming, and internet stuff. Any idea how many hits QQ.com and baidu.com get everyday? Why should they let foreign companies rule the bandwidth and adspace in their country? There are still borders in this world... much to the chagrin the mainstream media's "progressive one-green-world world without border" poppycock.
Its not about your rights; its about money. Same as it ever was. China doesnt need google- that goes without saying. What is relevant is that she doesnt want it. I wish Tubeface Twittoogle was here (actually it is because thanks to haxx)...but it isnt because it is a foreign business that China would rather not allow to proliferate since the services that these operators provide also exists under Chinese names and brands.
The reason they censor these sites is to force chinese to use the national sites and um.. they can since GoogleFaceTube's services are not mandatory according to any sort of "global freedom of speech" (there is mention of such a notion in the OP). Sure they get to block unwanted content as well but that is only ancillary to the business of supporting the newer Chinese sites that do that same thing as western precursors anyway.
Mostly agree with omninmo, although I also think there's a certain level of clueless bureaucracy thrown in for good measure. I think it was a week or so ago that you could no longer stream episodes of Friends online via youku or any other websites. Ridiculous firstly since it's Friends, and secondly because they simply -can't- censor it; there are simply too many websites where you can download the episodes that it's not justifiable to try and block them all just to stop a show like Friends. The most plausible explanation I've heard so far is that the streaming videos might have been stopped in response to western copyright pressure, but as of today they're up and running again so I really don't know.
On a side note, I'm actually really impressed with QQ. Two years ago their software was absolutely terrible. Bloated, messy, clunky, buggy, etc. etc. Now? I think either MSN or AIM has support for QQ games, and the QQ client is better than any MSN/AIM client I've seen in a long time (although to be fair, I haven't used an MSN/AIM client in a long time). Now if only Fetion could learn from them....
Speaking of Fetion, I'd actually like to see a Western equivalent to it. For anybody who doesn't know, Fetion is a service run by China Mobile, and essentially anybody with a China Mobile cell phone number has an account. It's like MSN/AIM, only if the person is offline you can send texts for free to their phone. Too bad their client is buggy/bloated/etc. etc.
Interesting post Omninmo. I doubt any government is coherent enough to quite live up to what you outlined, but it does sound like a plausible movement within their policy.
On March 26 2010 00:38 omninmo wrote: The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
so umm.... does that mean i can search for tienanmen square on baidu or something?
so what you're saying basically is that first china allows google to do business in their country and then decides they want to back baidu the moment google decides to uncensor their searches? quite a coincidence.
On March 26 2010 00:38 omninmo wrote: The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
so umm.... does that mean i can search for tienanmen square on baidu or something?
so what you're saying basically is that first china allows google to do business in their country and then decides they want to back baidu the moment google decides to uncensor their searches? quite a coincidence.
good question despite your apathetic sarcasm.
as long Googs has been operating in china they were held to stricter search censor restrictions. google always assumed that these restrictions were the same across the board while it was in fact the case that only google and not the domestic search engines that were so heavily scrutinized. they were restricted, of course, to allow the domestic counterparts the opportunity to catch up. when google caught wind of this "bullying" is when all the controversy began.
google is understandably upset, they are losing money...lots of money now that their spiders' legs have been cut. they turn to the mouthpiece of big business known as "the media" who trumps it up as a "global free speech" issue.
now, on the surface it appears as though freedom hating red Chinese were bullying our beloved beneficent GoogtubeFace when, in fact, they were deftly killing two proverbial birds (i.e. western propaganda and foreign business competition) with the single censor stone.
On March 26 2010 00:19 magicbullet wrote: Google's action is just irresponsible. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with government policy, but to openly flaunt the policy, whether just or not, in the host nation you are doing business in is just absurd and disrespectful to the country.
I absolutely disagree. I think it's great that corporations are taking ethical responsibility and using their economic leverage to bring human rights to ppl who do not have it. China's grand strategy right now is heavily based on its "soft power" and a "charm offensive" in which they try to convince the world that they are not a threat but a vital member of the international system. They want ppl to look up to China and view it in a good light. This is certainly a huge blow to this goal and they know it, but obviously they thought it was worth it.
omninmo, great post, but the way they force google to comply with some censorship issues regarding their search is indeed problematic in my eyes.
It's problematic but it is what it is, an extension of Chinese domestic censorship policy; not any sort of deliberate attack on internet or trying to dictate how internet operates.
I mean really, yeah it sucks but the rules has being in place for a reason and it is not Google's role to change the rules. That is crux of Chinese concerns.
I disagree. I believe corporations such as Google have enough influence that they really use their power to do good in the world. "Don't be evil" is Google's motto. Yeah for sure countries are going to hate it when these businessmen come in and try to "infringe" upon their sovereignty, but if they truly are blatantly breaking many of the agreements found in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, perhaps its good that they are reminded of that fact every time they engage in lucrative deals with international corporations.
When they reject such proposals in such high-profile cases like this, it really damages China's image. And China's image is absolutely crucial to their foreign policy strategy. They've made huge steps in this regard recently, but it still has a long ways to go.
Uhm omninmo you didn't really answer his (though rhetorical) question. So can you search for sensible topics on baidu (and receive critical results)?
And this "bullying" does not seem to be very effective in lowering googles market share and helping domestic search engines. Furthermore didn't google hit Chinas market way after baidu was already established and big? So the "catching up" happened the other way around.
Still do you really think that it took google five years to catch wind of this bullying? You make interesting points but they would be more convincing if you didn't mix your posts with a very one dimensional reasoning why all actors in this did what they did.
On March 26 2010 17:46 silynxer wrote: Uhm omninmo you didn't really answer his (though rhetorical) question. So can you search for sensible topics on baidu (and receive critical results)?
Yes you can. But when open the search results the website is blocked. The funniest part is that if you click on the 百度快照 link (cached page) you can view the cached copy of the page saved by Baidu.
So Baidu is even the easiest way to read censored content lol.
On March 26 2010 00:38 omninmo wrote: The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
so umm.... does that mean i can search for tienanmen square on baidu or something?
so what you're saying basically is that first china allows google to do business in their country and then decides they want to back baidu the moment google decides to uncensor their searches? quite a coincidence.
good question despite your apathetic sarcasm.
as long Googs has been operating in china they were held to stricter search censor restrictions. google always assumed that these restrictions were the same across the board while it was in fact the case that only google and not the domestic search engines that were so heavily scrutinized. they were restricted, of course, to allow the domestic counterparts the opportunity to catch up. when google caught wind of this "bullying" is when all the controversy began.
google is understandably upset, they are losing money...lots of money now that their spiders' legs have been cut. they turn to the mouthpiece of big business known as "the media" who trumps it up as a "global free speech" issue.
now, on the surface it appears as though freedom hating red Chinese were bullying our beloved beneficent GoogtubeFace when, in fact, they were deftly killing two proverbial birds (i.e. western propaganda and foreign business competition) with the single censor stone.
if china wanted domestic search engines to success why not block google altogether? like you said they have no issue with blocking youtube or even arbitrarily imposing search censors. why allow google to operate at all and then close them down after the uncensor their searches?
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious.
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious.
You are wrong, please refer to my post on previous page (which was posted while you were typing your post, no offence )
On March 26 2010 17:46 silynxer wrote: Uhm omninmo you didn't really answer his (though rhetorical) question. So can you search for sensible topics on baidu (and receive critical results)?
Yes you can. But when open the search results the website is blocked. The funniest part is that if you click on the 百度快照 link (cached page) you can view the cached copy of the page saved by Baidu.
So Baidu is even the easiest way to read censored content lol.
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious.
You are wrong, please refer to my post on previous page (which was posted while you were typing your post, no offence )
Just because links pop up that are blocked doesn't mean that you're not still seeing filtered results. Google also used to come up with links that were blocked.
Try "tank man" on both for example (I just did). You'll get quite a few different results. Granted the Google results came from it's HK website, the point remains. Baidu doesn't offer unfiltered results.
On March 26 2010 17:38 Klogon wrote: I disagree. I believe corporations such as Google have enough influence that they really use their power to do good in the world. "Don't be evil" is Google's motto. Yeah for sure countries are going to hate it when these businessmen come in and try to "infringe" upon their sovereignty, but if they truly are blatantly breaking many of the agreements found in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, perhaps its good that they are reminded of that fact every time they engage in lucrative deals with international corporations.
When they reject such proposals in such high-profile cases like this, it really damages China's image. And China's image is absolutely crucial to their foreign policy strategy. They've made huge steps in this regard recently, but it still has a long ways to go.
To be honest, I very much doubt China cares very much about being popular or being moral or even being correct and as long as the market consumption and growth continues, foreign business will flock to the land.
The Chinese government don't even care about their own popularity and image in China, what would they give more points to a bunch of nerds across the Atlantic?
Granted, China need the world and importantly needs the West but really China needs resources to fuel its development and Chinese foreign strategy is revolved around this simple fact. Google have influences but they are not a major player, not by a long short. It would be quite another thing if Oil and gas wholesalers start to push back and we all know that will never happen without going to war.
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious.
You are wrong, please refer to my post on previous page (which was posted while you were typing your post, no offence )
if what you said is true why does it even matter if google is censored and baidu is not when the site you search for is blocked anyway? how does this affect ad revenue? if a certain topic is blocked by the government who's going to buy an ad for said topic?
if what you said is true why does it even matter if google is censored and baidu is not when the site you search for is blocked anyway? how does this affect ad revenue? if a certain topic is blocked by the government who's going to buy an ad for said topic?
not censored by baidu is only 2 footnotes out of many.
It doesnt matter. I was just replying to the question "does baidu filter search results?". It does actually partially filter, but it's still indexing pages about Tiananmen, so it's probably not what you imagined.
"if what you said is true" here is a screen i just took.
And I cant read the wikipedia link you sent, it's blocked (seriously lol).
for some reason i'm unable to produce the same result. but clearly information is not being made freely available on that topic and if you search more specifically i think you would get even less hits. i get about 6 hits with tiananmen square protest.
On March 26 2010 18:51 mahnini wrote: for some reason i'm unable to produce the same result. but clearly information is not being made freely available on that topic and if you search more specifically i think you would get even less hits. i get about 6 hits with tiananmen square protest.
I'm guessing it's because of your American IP address. I've had multiple experiences with Baidu offering different results depending on my IP address before.
On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote: Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore.
And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites.
Cultural lesson:
China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those" Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich."
the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all. this is the core issue of this topic but since most people prefer to talk about particulars let us examine the google case:
The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
Sites and their Chinese counterparts google.com - baidu.com both stocks trade for well above $500 a share with baidu usually fetching a higher price. youtube - youku.com facebook - kaixinwang.com, xiaonei.com ebay - taobao.com MSN messenger - QQ messenger Twitter - i forgot the name but there is a link on the qq page
The list goes on.. It is not the technological capability or the "freedom of speech" that they block but rather the brand, packaging, and content from the western site . I can blog on wordpress here behind the "greatfirewall" even without my internet hax. Its not blocked because there is not yet a better chinese counterpart (a testament to WP's brilliance, indeed).
For every hip, cool new website with a service there is an exact and sometimes better chinese replica.. for instance QQ messenger and its features, speed, etc is better than all else. taobao does not have a symbiotic relationship with a bloodsucking paypal-esque equivalent, etc.
The market in china is at least double the rest of the world for websites, gaming, and internet stuff. Any idea how many hits QQ.com and baidu.com get everyday? Why should they let foreign companies rule the bandwidth and adspace in their country? There are still borders in this world... much to the chagrin the mainstream media's "progressive one-green-world world without border" poppycock.
Its not about your rights; its about money. Same as it ever was. China doesnt need google- that goes without saying. What is relevant is that she doesnt want it. I wish Tubeface Twittoogle was here (actually it is because thanks to haxx)...but it isnt because it is a foreign business that China would rather not allow to proliferate since the services that these operators provide also exists under Chinese names and brands.
The reason they censor these sites is to force chinese to use the national sites and um.. they can since GoogleFaceTube's services are not mandatory according to any sort of "global freedom of speech" (there is mention of such a notion in the OP). Sure they get to block unwanted content as well but that is only ancillary to the business of supporting the newer Chinese sites that do that same thing as western precursors anyway.
Well a very informative post...but I dont need these since I've been living in China for the last 6 years, I speak perfect Chinese and I know and use all of the above sites quite often lol.
But your argument does not address what I meant. Of course its ok for copy/mimic Youtube/Facebook etc, but BLOCK them outright? Dont you think that only Chinese know how to copy/mimic these website. Most countries have the own counter-part of Youtube/Facebook etc... There are many others reason that China blocked these website and I dont want to derail and turn this thread into another China bashing thread so I will stop here.
On March 26 2010 18:51 mahnini wrote: for some reason i'm unable to produce the same result. but clearly information is not being made freely available on that topic and if you search more specifically i think you would get even less hits. i get about 6 hits with tiananmen square protest.
Yeah i just tried with more keywords, it seems that as long as you don't associate tiananmen and massacre or protest together you get the results. And as i said, for a lot of people who are not able to install a proxy or a vpn, the cached page option on baidu can let you access sensible content. Which I find very funny since it doesnt only bring you to the page, but also enables you to see a page that is blocked otherwise.
And even if Google's case is different, omninmo is totally right about Facebook and Youtube, the chinese copies are not filtered, which proves China didn't block them for a matter of freedom of speech.
You don't think Youku is filtered? We can easily test that hypothesis out, and I think you'll find some interesting results. Those things are definitely censored. Again, try searching for "tank man", or uploading a video of him from Youtube to Youku. You can bet that video won't stay up. The difference is that those Chinese websites are primarily used by Chinese, who don't have as easy access to things that would be deemed censorable, therefore there's less material that comes up that would need to be censored. But make no mistake about it, they're monitored too.
Also, just because certain things aren't filtered doesn't make any of the arguments here less valid. There are many things that are blocked for reasons other than what omninmo very one-sidedly describes. More importantly, if omninmo's reasons were in fact the only reasons why things were blocked (which we know they aren't), that's still not exactly playing fair, and is still "bullying" no matter how one wants to refer to the parties involved. Think about what would happen if every country operated in the same manner regarding foreign businesses. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet that would not be a good thing for anyone.
On March 26 2010 19:02 Caphe wrote: Cultural lesson:
China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those" Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich."
the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all.
Everything, without exception, that any genius mind comes up with is a small incremental improvement on already existing ideas. The western model of intellectual property is highly flawed, so much so that it is better not to have intellectual property at all than to have it in the way that we currently do.
The developments you describe are not because of intellectual property but because the Chinese are a nationalistic folk. The Chinese give extra points to a Chinese-run website just because it is Chinese. If it's also better than the western counterpart, great, but that is not the main issue. Since the Canadians don't really care if the website is American or Canadian, a Canadian start up won't have a lot of business since the American site has the first-mover advantage*.
It has got nothing to do with intellectual property. And the first-mover advantage doesn't exist in China, because the Chinese will prefer a Chinese start-up over the western site.
The government, by the way, is deliberately engineering this situation, helping feed the nationalistic tendencies with propaganda and censorship. They want to build a strong unified China.
* The first mover in any market has a significant advantage over newcomers. Facebook, having already existed for a while, will have a huge advantage over a new start-up even if the new website has way better features. Numerous face-book clones, with better features, have been tried, they just didn't work because they have nothing to offset the first-mover advantage.
On March 26 2010 19:02 Caphe wrote: Cultural lesson:
China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those" Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich."
the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all.
Everything, without exception, that any genius mind comes up with is a small incremental improvement on already existing ideas. The western model of intellectual property is highly flawed, so much so that it is better not to have intellectual property at all than to have it in the way that we currently do.
The developments you describe are not because of intellectual property but because the Chinese are a nationalistic folk. The Chinese give extra points to a Chinese-run website just because it is Chinese. If it's also better than the western counterpart, great, but that is not the main issue. Since the Canadians don't really care if the website is American or Canadian, a Canadian start up won't have a lot of business since the American site has the first-mover advantage*.
It has got nothing to do with intellectual property. And the first-mover advantage doesn't exist in China, because the Chinese will prefer a Chinese start-up over the western site.
The government, by the way, is deliberately engineering this situation, helping feed the nationalistic tendencies with propaganda and censorship. They want to build a strong unified China.
* The first mover in any market has a significant advantage over newcomers. Facebook, having already existed for a while, will have a huge advantage over a new start-up even if the new website has way better features. Numerous face-book clones, with better features, have been tried, they just didn't work because they have nothing to offset the first-mover advantage.
Do you actually get all this from a Chinese national or have you just made your own assumptions?
True, most Chinese are sort-of nationalistic, but this doesn't affect their website choices much because they already have legit reasons to choose the Chinese site over the foreign site....the Chinese site is, uh, in their language, so they choose it. This isn't nationalism, this is convenience. Not to mention that if you know Chinese the sites can actually be better than Facebook or Youtube or Wikipedia.
The first mover advantage still does exist in China, as it does in any market. It's just that the "first-movers" have changed and you don't recognize the companies so you brand it as non-existent. Baidu and the other Chinese search engines probably came after Google or Yahoo, but they were the first to actually cater seriously to the Chinese population, not just have an option on the page where you can translate into Mandarin. They ARE the "first-movers".
And as to the government helping this along...show me proof. Censorship weakens nationalism. Censorship drives users away from sites with censored results. The government doesn't even need to try to get people to use Chinese sites.
Just pointing out some stuff in your post which I think is totally made-up.
Why is facebook censored, but not TL.net or any other large internet forum? Here, I'm able to hear all sorts of criticisms and arguments against the Chinese government. Hell, I can post a thread asking one of you to access censored information and then copy and paste the content or to upload a picture of the censored websites for me. Would you say that there's more sensitive content on facebook than on a foreign internet forum?