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On March 26 2010 15:52 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 05:00 mahnini wrote:On March 26 2010 00:38 omninmo wrote: The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
so umm.... does that mean i can search for tienanmen square on baidu or something? so what you're saying basically is that first china allows google to do business in their country and then decides they want to back baidu the moment google decides to uncensor their searches? quite a coincidence. good question despite your apathetic sarcasm. as long Googs has been operating in china they were held to stricter search censor restrictions. google always assumed that these restrictions were the same across the board while it was in fact the case that only google and not the domestic search engines that were so heavily scrutinized. they were restricted, of course, to allow the domestic counterparts the opportunity to catch up. when google caught wind of this "bullying" is when all the controversy began. google is understandably upset, they are losing money...lots of money now that their spiders' legs have been cut. they turn to the mouthpiece of big business known as "the media" who trumps it up as a "global free speech" issue. now, on the surface it appears as though freedom hating red Chinese were bullying our beloved beneficent GoogtubeFace when, in fact, they were deftly killing two proverbial birds (i.e. western propaganda and foreign business competition) with the single censor stone. if china wanted domestic search engines to success why not block google altogether? like you said they have no issue with blocking youtube or even arbitrarily imposing search censors. why allow google to operate at all and then close them down after the uncensor their searches?
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious.
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On March 26 2010 18:07 mahnini wrote:
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious.
You are wrong, please refer to my post on previous page (which was posted while you were typing your post, no offence )
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On March 26 2010 18:01 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 17:46 silynxer wrote: Uhm omninmo you didn't really answer his (though rhetorical) question. So can you search for sensible topics on baidu (and receive critical results)?
Yes you can. But when open the search results the website is blocked. The funniest part is that if you click on the 百度快照 link (cached page) you can view the cached copy of the page saved by Baidu. So Baidu is even the easiest way to read censored content lol.
On March 26 2010 18:11 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 18:07 mahnini wrote:
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious. You are wrong, please refer to my post on previous page (which was posted while you were typing your post, no offence  )
Just because links pop up that are blocked doesn't mean that you're not still seeing filtered results. Google also used to come up with links that were blocked.
Try "tank man" on both for example (I just did). You'll get quite a few different results. Granted the Google results came from it's HK website, the point remains. Baidu doesn't offer unfiltered results.
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On March 26 2010 17:38 Klogon wrote: I disagree. I believe corporations such as Google have enough influence that they really use their power to do good in the world. "Don't be evil" is Google's motto. Yeah for sure countries are going to hate it when these businessmen come in and try to "infringe" upon their sovereignty, but if they truly are blatantly breaking many of the agreements found in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, perhaps its good that they are reminded of that fact every time they engage in lucrative deals with international corporations.
When they reject such proposals in such high-profile cases like this, it really damages China's image. And China's image is absolutely crucial to their foreign policy strategy. They've made huge steps in this regard recently, but it still has a long ways to go.
To be honest, I very much doubt China cares very much about being popular or being moral or even being correct and as long as the market consumption and growth continues, foreign business will flock to the land.
The Chinese government don't even care about their own popularity and image in China, what would they give more points to a bunch of nerds across the Atlantic?
Granted, China need the world and importantly needs the West but really China needs resources to fuel its development and Chinese foreign strategy is revolved around this simple fact. Google have influences but they are not a major player, not by a long short. It would be quite another thing if Oil and gas wholesalers start to push back and we all know that will never happen without going to war.
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On March 26 2010 18:11 endy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 18:07 mahnini wrote:
furthermore, if censoring search results of foreign sites is a method of giving advantage to domestic sites (which is a stupid idea altogether) does that mean baidu returns uncensored results? i'm going to go ahead and wager it doesn't.
also the whole "western propaganda" bit is hilarious. You are wrong, please refer to my post on previous page (which was posted while you were typing your post, no offence  ) if what you said is true why does it even matter if google is censored and baidu is not when the site you search for is blocked anyway? how does this affect ad revenue? if a certain topic is blocked by the government who's going to buy an ad for said topic?
tianamen square protest in google leads directly to the wiki. baidu search gives me this: http://www.baidu.com/s?bs=tian an men protest&f=8&wd=tian an men protest wikipedia
obviously there will be a difference in how the search algorithms, etc. work but i dont think a search can get more specific than that.
either way http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_censored_by_search_engines_in_the_People's_Republic_of_China
not censored by baidu is only 2 footnotes out of many.
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It doesnt matter. I was just replying to the question "does baidu filter search results?". It does actually partially filter, but it's still indexing pages about Tiananmen, so it's probably not what you imagined.
"if what you said is true" here is a screen i just took.
And I cant read the wikipedia link you sent, it's blocked (seriously lol).
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for some reason i'm unable to produce the same result. but clearly information is not being made freely available on that topic and if you search more specifically i think you would get even less hits. i get about 6 hits with tiananmen square protest.
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On March 26 2010 18:51 mahnini wrote: for some reason i'm unable to produce the same result. but clearly information is not being made freely available on that topic and if you search more specifically i think you would get even less hits. i get about 6 hits with tiananmen square protest.
I'm guessing it's because of your American IP address. I've had multiple experiences with Baidu offering different results depending on my IP address before.
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On March 26 2010 00:38 omninmo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 23:42 Caphe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote: Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore. And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites. Cultural lesson:China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those" Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich." the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all. this is the core issue of this topic but since most people prefer to talk about particulars let us examine the google case: The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china: Sites and their Chinese counterpartsgoogle.com - baidu.com both stocks trade for well above $500 a share with baidu usually fetching a higher price. youtube - youku.com facebook - kaixinwang.com, xiaonei.com ebay - taobao.com MSN messenger - QQ messenger Twitter - i forgot the name but there is a link on the qq page The list goes on.. It is not the technological capability or the "freedom of speech" that they block but rather the brand, packaging, and content from the western site . I can blog on wordpress here behind the "greatfirewall" even without my internet hax. Its not blocked because there is not yet a better chinese counterpart (a testament to WP's brilliance, indeed). For every hip, cool new website with a service there is an exact and sometimes better chinese replica.. for instance QQ messenger and its features, speed, etc is better than all else. taobao does not have a symbiotic relationship with a bloodsucking paypal-esque equivalent, etc. The market in china is at least double the rest of the world for websites, gaming, and internet stuff. Any idea how many hits QQ.com and baidu.com get everyday? Why should they let foreign companies rule the bandwidth and adspace in their country? There are still borders in this world... much to the chagrin the mainstream media's "progressive one-green-world world without border" poppycock. Its not about your rights; its about money. Same as it ever was. China doesnt need google- that goes without saying. What is relevant is that she doesnt want it. I wish Tubeface Twittoogle was here (actually it is because thanks to haxx)...but it isnt because it is a foreign business that China would rather not allow to proliferate since the services that these operators provide also exists under Chinese names and brands. Hispanic business.com says With Google Gone, Baidu Rules The reason they censor these sites is to force chinese to use the national sites and um.. they can since GoogleFaceTube's services are not mandatory according to any sort of "global freedom of speech" (there is mention of such a notion in the OP). Sure they get to block unwanted content as well but that is only ancillary to the business of supporting the newer Chinese sites that do that same thing as western precursors anyway.
Well a very informative post...but I dont need these since I've been living in China for the last 6 years, I speak perfect Chinese and I know and use all of the above sites quite often lol.
But your argument does not address what I meant. Of course its ok for copy/mimic Youtube/Facebook etc, but BLOCK them outright? Dont you think that only Chinese know how to copy/mimic these website. Most countries have the own counter-part of Youtube/Facebook etc... There are many others reason that China blocked these website and I dont want to derail and turn this thread into another China bashing thread so I will stop here.
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On March 26 2010 18:51 mahnini wrote: for some reason i'm unable to produce the same result. but clearly information is not being made freely available on that topic and if you search more specifically i think you would get even less hits. i get about 6 hits with tiananmen square protest.
Yeah i just tried with more keywords, it seems that as long as you don't associate tiananmen and massacre or protest together you get the results. And as i said, for a lot of people who are not able to install a proxy or a vpn, the cached page option on baidu can let you access sensible content. Which I find very funny since it doesnt only bring you to the page, but also enables you to see a page that is blocked otherwise.
And even if Google's case is different, omninmo is totally right about Facebook and Youtube, the chinese copies are not filtered, which proves China didn't block them for a matter of freedom of speech.
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You don't think Youku is filtered? We can easily test that hypothesis out, and I think you'll find some interesting results. Those things are definitely censored. Again, try searching for "tank man", or uploading a video of him from Youtube to Youku. You can bet that video won't stay up. The difference is that those Chinese websites are primarily used by Chinese, who don't have as easy access to things that would be deemed censorable, therefore there's less material that comes up that would need to be censored. But make no mistake about it, they're monitored too.
Also, just because certain things aren't filtered doesn't make any of the arguments here less valid. There are many things that are blocked for reasons other than what omninmo very one-sidedly describes. More importantly, if omninmo's reasons were in fact the only reasons why things were blocked (which we know they aren't), that's still not exactly playing fair, and is still "bullying" no matter how one wants to refer to the parties involved. Think about what would happen if every country operated in the same manner regarding foreign businesses. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet that would not be a good thing for anyone.
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On March 26 2010 19:02 Caphe wrote: Cultural lesson:
China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those" Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich."
the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all. Everything, without exception, that any genius mind comes up with is a small incremental improvement on already existing ideas. The western model of intellectual property is highly flawed, so much so that it is better not to have intellectual property at all than to have it in the way that we currently do.
The developments you describe are not because of intellectual property but because the Chinese are a nationalistic folk. The Chinese give extra points to a Chinese-run website just because it is Chinese. If it's also better than the western counterpart, great, but that is not the main issue. Since the Canadians don't really care if the website is American or Canadian, a Canadian start up won't have a lot of business since the American site has the first-mover advantage*.
It has got nothing to do with intellectual property. And the first-mover advantage doesn't exist in China, because the Chinese will prefer a Chinese start-up over the western site.
The government, by the way, is deliberately engineering this situation, helping feed the nationalistic tendencies with propaganda and censorship. They want to build a strong unified China.
* The first mover in any market has a significant advantage over newcomers. Facebook, having already existed for a while, will have a huge advantage over a new start-up even if the new website has way better features. Numerous face-book clones, with better features, have been tried, they just didn't work because they have nothing to offset the first-mover advantage.
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Reasons why not to visit china: The Great Wall of China
On a more serious note, google probably didnt get enough adds, etc in china as well as them getting attacked, probably a good reason to "pull out"
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On March 26 2010 20:16 Phrujbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 19:02 Caphe wrote: Cultural lesson:
China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those" Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich."
the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all. Everything, without exception, that any genius mind comes up with is a small incremental improvement on already existing ideas. The western model of intellectual property is highly flawed, so much so that it is better not to have intellectual property at all than to have it in the way that we currently do. The developments you describe are not because of intellectual property but because the Chinese are a nationalistic folk. The Chinese give extra points to a Chinese-run website just because it is Chinese. If it's also better than the western counterpart, great, but that is not the main issue. Since the Canadians don't really care if the website is American or Canadian, a Canadian start up won't have a lot of business since the American site has the first-mover advantage*. It has got nothing to do with intellectual property. And the first-mover advantage doesn't exist in China, because the Chinese will prefer a Chinese start-up over the western site. The government, by the way, is deliberately engineering this situation, helping feed the nationalistic tendencies with propaganda and censorship. They want to build a strong unified China. * The first mover in any market has a significant advantage over newcomers. Facebook, having already existed for a while, will have a huge advantage over a new start-up even if the new website has way better features. Numerous face-book clones, with better features, have been tried, they just didn't work because they have nothing to offset the first-mover advantage.
Do you actually get all this from a Chinese national or have you just made your own assumptions?
True, most Chinese are sort-of nationalistic, but this doesn't affect their website choices much because they already have legit reasons to choose the Chinese site over the foreign site....the Chinese site is, uh, in their language, so they choose it. This isn't nationalism, this is convenience. Not to mention that if you know Chinese the sites can actually be better than Facebook or Youtube or Wikipedia.
The first mover advantage still does exist in China, as it does in any market. It's just that the "first-movers" have changed and you don't recognize the companies so you brand it as non-existent. Baidu and the other Chinese search engines probably came after Google or Yahoo, but they were the first to actually cater seriously to the Chinese population, not just have an option on the page where you can translate into Mandarin. They ARE the "first-movers".
And as to the government helping this along...show me proof. Censorship weakens nationalism. Censorship drives users away from sites with censored results. The government doesn't even need to try to get people to use Chinese sites.
Just pointing out some stuff in your post which I think is totally made-up.
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Something to think about:
Why is facebook censored, but not TL.net or any other large internet forum? Here, I'm able to hear all sorts of criticisms and arguments against the Chinese government. Hell, I can post a thread asking one of you to access censored information and then copy and paste the content or to upload a picture of the censored websites for me. Would you say that there's more sensitive content on facebook than on a foreign internet forum?
P.S. I'm sorry if I get TL.net censored in China.
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