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You start with a few factual statements, but continually move to more and more opinion that has no actual justification or support within your posts.
You are taking for granted that you: channel some mythic Wall Street viewpoint; understand complex corporations despite having no understanding, experience, or relevant data; and lastly and most laughably--you continually ignore what is probably the most important explanation of events by "seeing through" the press statements of the involved party.
I understand that we are here to talk about something that we don't actually understand, but a bit of parsimony would be nice. Let's have more speculation and less conspiracy theory.
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On March 17 2010 09:29 haduken wrote:
The recent hacking could have provoked a feeling that losing IP to Chinese hackers is more damaging than the money that it make in the country.
This is something that I think is a very important factor. I don't think that the hacking is the only factor at play here, not at all, but I definitely think it's not getting nearly the attention that it deserves. There's a lot that isn't being talked about by the news regarding these attacks, especially if you're following the Chinese sources. However, something like this is definitely significant enough to make a company rethink their current business situation. Many of you may not feel that the government could ever have had anything to do with this, but for those who actually know a bit about this sort of stuff, it's not so clear (disclaimer: whether other countries are just as bad or not is irrelevant here).
Again, that's really not the only issue involved, but it's definitely something that could easily push a company that's already facing pressures and difficulties from the host to rethink their situation. As mentioned before, and by multiple people, it would be quite naive and quite frankly ridiculous to assume that the issue is all about Google simply not knowing how to do business in China. It goes far deeper than that, and it goes deeper than whether or not Google is making money in China (they are). The hackings are not the only issue, but they could very well have been the last straw.
Either way, it's a shame that it came to this. I'm curious to see whether or not the government will block Google altogether, but either way I guess it's not a big deal. Many young people just use proxies or VPNs anyway, and even though it's annoying to have to fight a constant battle with the government over proxies, it's really not that difficult either.
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Does it matter that much China has other search engines that follow their rules and Google will make money no matter what. I think they can live with out each other.
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Bing > google anyways, it has a better algorithm
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Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore.
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On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote:
Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore.
And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites.
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On March 25 2010 23:42 Caphe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote:
Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore. And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites.
Facebook is already blocked. I'm not sure about Twitter, but Youtube and Google are tied and the government is days away from blocking the Hong Kong site (if they haven't already). That one day was yesterday.
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Google's action is just irresponsible. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with government policy, but to openly flaunt the policy, whether just or not, in the host nation you are doing business in is just absurd and disrespectful to the country.
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On March 25 2010 23:42 Caphe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 25 2010 12:52 Disregard wrote:
Google still maintains service in China but they moved their server and domain to Hong Kong. Since HK is a SAR, their censorship rules dont apply anymore. And for that I fear one day the Chinese goverment just BLOCK google outright like they did with Youtube, Facebook, Twitter and countless other websites.
Cultural lesson:
China sees facetuboogle and thinks "what a great idea. i can make one of those"
Western folks see facetuboogle and think "why didn't i think of that... i coulda been rich."
the difference is in how we see intellectual property which, in china, is not property at all.
this is the core issue of this topic but since most people prefer to talk about particulars let us examine the google case:
The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
Sites and their Chinese counterparts
google.com - baidu.com both stocks trade for well above $500 a share with baidu usually fetching a higher price.
youtube - youku.com
facebook - kaixinwang.com, xiaonei.com
ebay - taobao.com
MSN messenger - QQ messenger
Twitter - i forgot the name but there is a link on the qq page
The list goes on.. It is not the technological capability or the "freedom of speech" that they block but rather the brand, packaging, and content from the western site . I can blog on wordpress here behind the "greatfirewall" even without my internet hax. Its not blocked because there is not yet a better chinese counterpart (a testament to WP's brilliance, indeed).
For every hip, cool new website with a service there is an exact and sometimes better chinese replica.. for instance QQ messenger and its features, speed, etc is better than all else. taobao does not have a symbiotic relationship with a bloodsucking paypal-esque equivalent, etc.
The market in china is at least double the rest of the world for websites, gaming, and internet stuff. Any idea how many hits QQ.com and baidu.com get everyday? Why should they let foreign companies rule the bandwidth and adspace in their country? There are still borders in this world... much to the chagrin the mainstream media's "progressive one-green-world world without border" poppycock.
Its not about your rights; its about money. Same as it ever was. China doesnt need google- that goes without saying. What is relevant is that she doesnt want it. I wish Tubeface Twittoogle was here (actually it is because thanks to haxx)...but it isnt because it is a foreign business that China would rather not allow to proliferate since the services that these operators provide also exists under Chinese names and brands.
Hispanic business.com says With Google Gone, Baidu Rules
The reason they censor these sites is to force chinese to use the national sites and um.. they can since GoogleFaceTube's services are not mandatory according to any sort of "global freedom of speech" (there is mention of such a notion in the OP). Sure they get to block unwanted content as well but that is only ancillary to the business of supporting the newer Chinese sites that do that same thing as western precursors anyway.
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Mostly agree with omninmo, although I also think there's a certain level of clueless bureaucracy thrown in for good measure. I think it was a week or so ago that you could no longer stream episodes of Friends online via youku or any other websites. Ridiculous firstly since it's Friends, and secondly because they simply -can't- censor it; there are simply too many websites where you can download the episodes that it's not justifiable to try and block them all just to stop a show like Friends. The most plausible explanation I've heard so far is that the streaming videos might have been stopped in response to western copyright pressure, but as of today they're up and running again so I really don't know.
On a side note, I'm actually really impressed with QQ. Two years ago their software was absolutely terrible. Bloated, messy, clunky, buggy, etc. etc. Now? I think either MSN or AIM has support for QQ games, and the QQ client is better than any MSN/AIM client I've seen in a long time (although to be fair, I haven't used an MSN/AIM client in a long time). Now if only Fetion could learn from them....
Speaking of Fetion, I'd actually like to see a Western equivalent to it. For anybody who doesn't know, Fetion is a service run by China Mobile, and essentially anybody with a China Mobile cell phone number has an account. It's like MSN/AIM, only if the person is offline you can send texts for free to their phone. Too bad their client is buggy/bloated/etc. etc.
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Interesting post Omninmo. I doubt any government is coherent enough to quite live up to what you outlined, but it does sound like a plausible movement within their policy.
I had never thought about it like that before.
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On March 26 2010 00:38 omninmo wrote:
The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
so umm.... does that mean i can search for tienanmen square on baidu or something?
so what you're saying basically is that first china allows google to do business in their country and then decides they want to back baidu the moment google decides to uncensor their searches? quite a coincidence.
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Wow i didn't know that China wasn't a free market. I have learn something today, thanks for the input.
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On March 26 2010 05:00 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2010 00:38 omninmo wrote:
The reason these sites are blocked is not to infringe on your human rights... Why are enlightened minds of the west so naive as to think that everything "blocked" or censored from without is because the rulers "hate freedom". The reason these sites are blocked is because there are chinese copies that have ties with money in china:
so umm.... does that mean i can search for tienanmen square on baidu or something? so what you're saying basically is that first china allows google to do business in their country and then decides they want to back baidu the moment google decides to uncensor their searches? quite a coincidence.
good question despite your apathetic sarcasm.
as long Googs has been operating in china they were held to stricter search censor restrictions. google always assumed that these restrictions were the same across the board while it was in fact the case that only google and not the domestic search engines that were so heavily scrutinized. they were restricted, of course, to allow the domestic counterparts the opportunity to catch up. when google caught wind of this "bullying" is when all the controversy began.
google is understandably upset, they are losing money...lots of money now that their spiders' legs have been cut. they turn to the mouthpiece of big business known as "the media" who trumps it up as a "global free speech" issue.
now, on the surface it appears as though freedom hating red Chinese were bullying our beloved beneficent GoogtubeFace when, in fact, they were deftly killing two proverbial birds (i.e. western propaganda and foreign business competition) with the single censor stone.
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MURICA15980 Posts
On March 26 2010 00:19 magicbullet wrote:
Google's action is just irresponsible. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with government policy, but to openly flaunt the policy, whether just or not, in the host nation you are doing business in is just absurd and disrespectful to the country.
I absolutely disagree. I think it's great that corporations are taking ethical responsibility and using their economic leverage to bring human rights to ppl who do not have it. China's grand strategy right now is heavily based on its "soft power" and a "charm offensive" in which they try to convince the world that they are not a threat but a vital member of the international system. They want ppl to look up to China and view it in a good light. This is certainly a huge blow to this goal and they know it, but obviously they thought it was worth it.
omninmo, great post, but the way they force google to comply with some censorship issues regarding their search is indeed problematic in my eyes.
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It's problematic but it is what it is, an extension of Chinese domestic censorship policy; not any sort of deliberate attack on internet or trying to dictate how internet operates.
I mean really, yeah it sucks but the rules has being in place for a reason and it is not Google's role to change the rules. That is crux of Chinese concerns.
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MURICA15980 Posts
I disagree. I believe corporations such as Google have enough influence that they really use their power to do good in the world. "Don't be evil" is Google's motto. Yeah for sure countries are going to hate it when these businessmen come in and try to "infringe" upon their sovereignty, but if they truly are blatantly breaking many of the agreements found in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, perhaps its good that they are reminded of that fact every time they engage in lucrative deals with international corporations.
When they reject such proposals in such high-profile cases like this, it really damages China's image. And China's image is absolutely crucial to their foreign policy strategy. They've made huge steps in this regard recently, but it still has a long ways to go.
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Uhm omninmo you didn't really answer his (though rhetorical) question. So can you search for sensible topics on baidu (and receive critical results)?
And this "bullying" does not seem to be very effective in lowering googles market share and helping domestic search engines. Furthermore didn't google hit Chinas market way after baidu was already established and big? So the "catching up" happened the other way around.
Still do you really think that it took google five years to catch wind of this bullying? You make interesting points but they would be more convincing if you didn't mix your posts with a very one dimensional reasoning why all actors in this did what they did.
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On March 26 2010 17:46 silynxer wrote:
Uhm omninmo you didn't really answer his (though rhetorical) question. So can you search for sensible topics on baidu (and receive critical results)?
Yes you can. But when open the search results the website is blocked.
The funniest part is that if you click on the 百度快照 link (cached page) you can view the cached copy of the page saved by Baidu.
So Baidu is even the easiest way to read censored content lol.
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