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On January 14 2010 11:45 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 11:27 Boblion wrote:On January 14 2010 11:07 Zexion wrote:On January 14 2010 10:33 Boblion wrote:On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote:
yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger. lol paranoia much ? Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ? You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues. Well i read lot of different newspapers, ranging from the extreme left to the right and none are praising China. But eh you are right i'm sure that there is a giant conspiracy against this wonderful country. I mean those journalists MUST be spies or Chinese haters obviously. They are brain washing us of course. There is a flood of negativity towards China in media. It's too independent and strong right now politically and it's potential is enormous. It's only obvious than it needs to be destabilized from a "zionist" pov. Simple logic. Also the video that i linked to earlier got removed... too bad, it was short, informative and good. Hard to grasp the content for a casual forum reader when it's coming from Duke, but this topic has nothing to do with racism. The leader of Iran actually talked about it in the anti-racism context in his famous speech.
rofl you are back to the david duke shit.
Im curious, since you are russian, how do you feel about the parallels between whats going on in Israel as opposed to Russia and Chechnya ?
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +No no, don't derail into that. I'd like to talk about Chechnya and parallels, but not here.
Speaking on topic, It's interesting what the chinese found in the "human rights activists" accounts they "almost" hacked and in other hack attempts. It has to be a big deal If it really took place, the response is serious.
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On January 13 2010 10:05 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote:
I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you. I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders?
Many times publicity will get you farther than $$ itself. 
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On January 14 2010 13:08 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2010 10:05 T.O.P. wrote:On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote:
I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you. I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders? Many times publicity will get you farther than $$ itself.
After they are banned everyone will suddenly say how google was better; take away something from the people and they will go crazy about it.
I never tested the chinese search engines, but I assume that google is better.
Please remember one thing however - google is really, really powerful.
Let's imagine that there is some Chinese analyst doing some important search for an article. He uses google. Google identifies him via ip. All his actions are logged (to see "what he knows"). In addition he can be provided with a modified list of websites (e.g. only supporting one cause; or the critical infromation can be blocked). Google can be very, very evil too... because it is working for the US government.
There should be alternatives. Unfortunately they seem to suck very badly (yes, IM talking about bing, netsprint etc). Most of them are american.
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On January 13 2010 10:42 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2010 10:40 sith wrote:
Maybe China will now realize that they are a bunch of fucking children and get with the rest of the free world. Jesus christ I'm fed up with this shit. "China executes tourists", "China bombs human rights activists families", blah blah blah that's all I hear about in the news about China. Grow up retards, at least pretend to act like a real country. Free world that kill million innocents right? Their government is far less evil than yours, that's for sure. And what kind of freedom do you have, that chinese don't?
All governments are evil. It's kind of a moot point. The US is pretty naive though.On January 14 2010 11:45 Magic84 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 11:27 Boblion wrote:On January 14 2010 11:07 Zexion wrote:On January 14 2010 10:33 Boblion wrote:On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote:
yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger. lol paranoia much ? Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ? You call that paranoia? Now that's naive. You really don't know how "evil" media can be do you? And I'm not just talking about China-issues. Well i read lot of different newspapers, ranging from the extreme left to the right and none are praising China. But eh you are right i'm sure that there is a giant conspiracy against this wonderful country. I mean those journalists MUST be spies or Chinese haters obviously. They are brain washing us of course. There is a flood of negativity towards China in media. It's too independent and strong right now politically and it's potential is enormous. It's only obvious than it needs to be destabilized from a "zionist" pov. Simple logic. Also the video that i linked to earlier got removed... too bad, it was short, informative and good. Hard to grasp the content for a casual forum reader when it's coming from Duke, but this topic has nothing to do with racism. The leader of Iran actually talked about it in the anti-racism context in his famous speech.
You're conflating things and using words with bad connotations. Reference Chomsky if you want to find a public figure who agrees with you who is NOT batshit insane. He's one of the foremost critics of the US foreign policy in relation to Israel about these things. And yes, the whole "wiped from the face of the earth" quote of Ahmadinejad is, from everything I've read, a mistranslation. Israel does terrible things and the US supports them in committing terrible atrocities. However, palestinians commit their own atrocious acts and it makes it harder to have a rational conversation - not that I blame them. Non-violence from the palestinians has never achieved anything.
I fail to see how any of this relates to china, though. Unless you're just using it as an example of the US' foreign policy.
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On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote:
If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc.
The Chinese government is very shotsighted! What causes massive demonstrations crime, outrage etc is not the freedom of imformation but the long-term fooling people. Economic development is very important to us indeed. But that costs a lot! The enviorment is getting worse. And that will take more time to heel it. Vast economic inequality is growing faster and faster...
If we pay too much attention to short-term stability and economics, we will have no future.
To this thing between Google and China, the politicians are telling lies. It's not Google's fault at all.
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On January 14 2010 11:31 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 10:55 .risingdragoon wrote:On January 14 2010 10:33 Boblion wrote:On January 14 2010 10:23 .risingdragoon wrote:
yeah, well don't trust the mass media.
now that the media has an agency behind it it's got its own political-economic agendas. they don't have to "lie" so much as deliberately skew the facts to give them a negative interpretation.
there's obviously been a media campaign going on against China as it grows to become even stronger. lol paranoia much ? Ok man India is also getting stronger and is a huge country too but i don't lot of bad things about this country in the medias. Why ? Asian prejudice ? don't masquerade questions as examples to the contrary. just ask. the simple answer is India has a completely different political atmosphere and although it has huge growth potential, it's not a contender for the geopolitical center of the world. Can you explain how China is more a contender than India for the geopolitical center of the world ?
Come on Boblion, I gave you more credit than to ask such a stupid question. Also, let's face it, if you scan the range of your posts on any topics regarding China, you have your own personal biases on the matter. Which is fine, it's a forum for opinion but to act randomly facetious and condescending is a little low for you since you seem to be an intelligent fellow capable of debate. As for praise for China on this issue, yes there's little praise for China obviously because it's business not politics. The shares of google speak for itself on what most people actually think of the decision.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 14 2010 09:50 Durak wrote:
I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
The problem with this is that it's rooted in the assumption that rational and intelligent opinions will win out. Rationality and intelligence, however you slice it though, are not common traits throughout the human race. While information and innovation can be great forces for good in the hands of a reasonable human being, they can be dangerous and extremely destabilizing in the hands of unreasonable and irrational people. In a country as large as China, you cannot hope that the reasonable opinions will win out.
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it'll be sad to disconnect China from the rest of the world via google :/
That and wiki and so many other things, youtube, facebook. ALl these awesome ways to learn english and other cultures. It's dissapointing
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On January 14 2010 09:50 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 02:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:On January 13 2010 19:47 pyrogenetix wrote:
If you want to fully understand why freedom of information would be a really bad idea in China then you should travel to China and live there, traveling around to some different cities (not just HK, SH and BJ), talk to a lot of different people, learn the culture, how people think, their education level, their morals, their way of life etc. You will probably find that the real China and the Chinese people are very different to what you have imagined. China has only just recently in the past twenty years been able to fill their stomachs. Yet still vast economic inequality still exists. I've been to a village in the rural areas of Guizhou and the average family there lives on 10 US dollars a month. The children there were so poor I wanted to cry and give them all the money I had so they could buy pencils and paper to go to school.
Chinese people have been poor for so long and invaded by so many countries that they are obsessive about wealth and will stop at absolutely nothing to attain it. A lot of people have the mindset "get rich or die trying", literally. The population of China is roughly four times that of the United States. Please take some time for this to sink in and realize how incredibly difficult that is to control if something were to happen, like an anti-government movement. When WCG finals were going to be held in Chengdu I knew that all the foreigners would think holy shit that's a lot of people but to me that was really pretty average.
Now imagine an entire country of people hellbent on getting money. The capacity of evil/crazy things the average Chinese person would set out to do for money is virtually unimaginable to the people of TL. That combined with the overall extremely low moral fiber they have, driving like lunatics, spitting everywhere, taking advantage everytime they think they can get away with it etc.
What the Chinese government is doing is pacifying them by limiting the amount of outside information they get, think of it as intellectual blinkers. This way no one makes any sudden movement and the economy moves forward steadily. This is the number one priority, not the luxury of freedom of information, which would be incredibly influential to a mass of people like the Chinese who are very poor at critical thinking but very very willing to get money.
I won't say anymore since there is too much to say. This is a very general and oversimplified explanation as to why China right now absolutely cannot have freedom of information. It would probably cause massive demonstrations, crime, outrage etc which is not good for the greater common good of economic development.
So no, it is not as easy as "fuck china freedom of information" etc. This. I'm not well versed on the subject but that seems like a gigantic assumption. I could just as easily say that by allowing free information into the system, regular Chinese money mongerers would be able to use their intellect to generate much more wealth. As shown by human history, creativity and innovation generates much better living standards. If another billion people suddenly had all this information and resources to use, there's a high probability that there would be new ideas.
you're -Greatly- overestimating the intellect of chinese people. you're assuming that they are responsible, law abiding citizens that will think for themselves critically, be able to weed out the garbage and find the truth amongst a tidal wave of free information.
I really dont think so, having just come back from a 3 week holiday in shanghai, and shanghai is supposed to be one of the three most developed cities in china. the average university student there thinks harry potter and twilight are high quality movies. i know because i talked with my cousin who is doing his masters now and his circle of friends think this. trust me when i say he and his friends are some of the brighter people in his school. chinese people's minds are empty like flowerpots.
again, i cannot stress how different white people's perception and knowledge of china is from the truth. you give them way too much credit and benefit of the doubt that you cannot imagine what the result would be if the censorship of internet and media was removed.
and sorry india isnt even on the same level as china so no india is not a contender with china.
and to the other guy, no i firmly believe that economic development is the most important thing both for establishing china as the next global superpower for political leverage, trade etc and also for the development of quality of life. When quality of life is raised, along with it comes education, and then slowly the majority of people will be ready for free information.
also, if the economy is going smoothly then everyone has money and can eat, thus everyone is happy and won't really cause problems. trust me when i say most people know that the news they watch on tv and hear on the radio is bullshit, but they dont really care because they have money. discussion about politics happen everywhere in bars, restaurants, amongst friends etc, just that the material isn't allowed to be published.
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On January 14 2010 16:19 evanthebouncy! wrote:
it'll be sad to disconnect China from the rest of the world via google :/
That and wiki and so many other things, youtube, facebook. ALl these awesome ways to learn english and other cultures. It's dissapointing
yea i know, well i guess that will come later. chinese people are kinda like german and french now in that they are in their own bubble and dont really care for the english speaking world except for american action movies and engrish tshirts
chinese people have their own facebook (xiaonei), msn (QQ), youtube (youkou, tudou), ebay (taobao) and even their own iccup lol (forgot the name).
the google of china is baidu, period. nearly everyone uses it. and then google wants some of that action but got owned. from what i've heard the most ppl use google.cn for is the music downloads. (google.cn has a huge section of legal music, but mostly chinese pop).
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chinese ppl living/born overseas like to think they are some kind of 'superior' chinese
looking back at china all high and mighty in their western countries...
thinking every1 in china is kept in a cage.. .. ironic they fail to see they are looking out as much as the people in china are looking in...
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On January 14 2010 17:09 fearus wrote:
chinese ppl living/born overseas like to think they are some kind of 'superior' chinese
looking back at china all high and mighty in their western countries...
thinking every1 in china is kept in a cage.. .. ironic they fail to see they are looking out as much as the people in china are looking in...
im sorry was that directed at me? if it was then you misunderstood. i was pointing out why freedom of internet information would be a really bad idea and that china is not ready for that. i do realize that i am very very lucky to have received an international education and no way look down on my local chinese friends. if you interpreted my post that way then you've misunderstood.
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Vatican City State1650 Posts
On January 14 2010 17:21 pyrogenetix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 17:09 fearus wrote:
chinese ppl living/born overseas like to think they are some kind of 'superior' chinese
looking back at china all high and mighty in their western countries...
thinking every1 in china is kept in a cage.. .. ironic they fail to see they are looking out as much as the people in china are looking in... im sorry was that directed at me? if it was then you misunderstood. i was pointing out why freedom of internet information would be a really bad idea and that china is not ready for that. i do realize that i am very very lucky to have received an international education and no way look down on my local chinese friends. if you interpreted my post that way then you've misunderstood.
But then how else can we interpret your post?
All your posts in this thread were, in a gist, that Chinese people are dumb, Chinese people are idiotic, Chinese people are empty-headed selfish bastards that will stab you in the back, they will steal without a thought and kill you if they can get away with it etc etc
Although I hate the rampant Nationalism apparent among some Chinese here in TL, it's just as distasteful to see you completely demean the entire billions of Chinese so thoroughly - especially when you yourself claim to be Chinese.
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Oh man, screw those Chinese people, they suck so baaaaad....
>.>
<.<
<=== Chinese
/sarcasm end
Srsly tho, this is interesting. I really doubt google will go to such lengths as pulling out of China. I mean, atleast half of China should (in theory) use google. That's still ALOT of people, and ALOT of people who steal you intellectual property but still give you money is better then no people giving you money....From a business standpoint, anyways.
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I can't understand all of this Google hate. They've been operating YouTube at what from all accounts I've seen is a major loss. On top of that, if you've ever watched some of their "@ Google" presentations they are very intellectually stimulating and of profound importance for the future of technology. Since when has Google been even remotely concerned with the typical PR bullshit we see from typical American businesses? Am I the only that took from that press release that Google all but implicated the Chinese government as a conspirator in those cyber attacks?
Whether the market share is 20% or 30% or 90% is almost negligible, I simply can't see money being the point here. It's a fucking disgrace to me that a business objecting to subservience of imposed immorality in our culture is immediately taken as a political gambit. The only valid concern I've seen is that if they had an issue with it, why were they there in the first place? First of all, they had no influence to prompt change without a significant market share, and second of all, is it better to do the right thing late than to never do it at all?
On the other hand, I'm not sure if I agree that freedom of information in China is the right thing or is even a significant thing at this point in time. The United States has had freedom of information forever and yet something like 75% of the population can't even locate a country we're at war with on a map. Are there issues with censorship in China noteworthy in contrast to ideal society, of course, but the Chinese government certainly thinks that censorship at this point is the best course of action, and who are any of us to act as if our opinions are even remotely informed if not flat out ignorant?
Finally, since signs point to Google as a company simply standing up for "what it believes is right," it's pathetic that the discussion here and elsewhere is more focused on whether this was some sort public relations strategy, rather instead about whether or not Google pulling out would be the right thing.
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On January 14 2010 17:38 orgolove wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 17:21 pyrogenetix wrote:On January 14 2010 17:09 fearus wrote:
chinese ppl living/born overseas like to think they are some kind of 'superior' chinese
looking back at china all high and mighty in their western countries...
thinking every1 in china is kept in a cage.. .. ironic they fail to see they are looking out as much as the people in china are looking in... im sorry was that directed at me? if it was then you misunderstood. i was pointing out why freedom of internet information would be a really bad idea and that china is not ready for that. i do realize that i am very very lucky to have received an international education and no way look down on my local chinese friends. if you interpreted my post that way then you've misunderstood. But then how else can we interpret your post? All your posts in this thread were, in a gist, that Chinese people are dumb, Chinese people are idiotic, Chinese people are empty-headed selfish bastards that will stab you in the back, they will steal without a thought and kill you if they can get away with it etc etc Although I hate the rampant Nationalism apparent among some Chinese here in TL, it's just as distasteful to see you completely demean the entire billions of Chinese so thoroughly - especially when you yourself claim to be Chinese.
true, but im pointing out that china is not ready for free internet. people are like that and it's a cold hard fact. why they are like that is a very long story but mostly because of china's long and chaotic history with incompetent leaders and getting invaded by england, spain, italy, japan etc.
the truth is this. im not blaming, im explaining. i dont want to see china like this either but releasing free internet is not the answer. lets just make that point clear.
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On January 14 2010 17:06 pyrogenetix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 16:19 evanthebouncy! wrote:
it'll be sad to disconnect China from the rest of the world via google :/
That and wiki and so many other things, youtube, facebook. ALl these awesome ways to learn english and other cultures. It's dissapointing yea i know, well i guess that will come later. chinese people are kinda like german and french now in that they are in their own bubble and dont really care for the english speaking world except for american action movies and engrish tshirts
WTF?
I don't exactly know about the French, they seem to have problems/no desire to speak english ^^. But saying the Germans live in their own bubble is pretty hilarious.
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On January 14 2010 13:16 Infested Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2010 13:08 synapse wrote:On January 13 2010 10:05 T.O.P. wrote:On January 13 2010 09:59 ZeroDPX wrote:
I happen to work for Google, and I can tell you with complete certainty that mucker is totally wrong. China is (extremely) profitable. Some simple thought about how many ad views 20% of the (very large, and rapidly growing) Chinese search market gives you should be enough to convince you. I don't understand why they would want to choose to pull out then. Do google ceos hate their shareholders? Many times publicity will get you farther than $$ itself. After they are banned everyone will suddenly say how google was better; take away something from the people and they will go crazy about it. I never tested the chinese search engines, but I assume that google is better. Please remember one thing however - google is really, really powerful. Let's imagine that there is some Chinese analyst doing some important search for an article. He uses google. Google identifies him via ip. All his actions are logged (to see "what he knows"). In addition he can be provided with a modified list of websites (e.g. only supporting one cause; or the critical infromation can be blocked). Google can be very, very evil too... because it is working for the US government. There should be alternatives. Unfortunately they seem to suck very badly (yes, IM talking about bing, netsprint etc). Most of them are american.
Not really. Google's market share in china right now is approximated 32% while Baidu.com has 60%.
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Zurich15358 Posts
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