EPTGoogle's New Approach to China - Page 11
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
PS. Hawk, I agree that freedom of information is a benefit to the population however, I'm not sure I agree that Russians would find the collapse of the Soviet Union "a good thing". Also, federal control does have it's benefits for a country when it comes to developing infrastructure. Many many countries proceed through the same steps including the US where our "toughest presidents" also happen to be the ones we remember. (Take Jackson, Lincoln, etc who was ALL about Federal control over state freedoms) | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On November 11 1947 Winston Churchill wrote: No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. QFT | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On January 14 2010 22:49 Hawk wrote: People like you are fucking terrifying. If you allow free flow of information, people eventually become better for it. It is not some kind of overnight magical transformation. I can't believe people use the lack of intelligence of a group as an excuse for oppression. The funny thing is that it is the main argument of American Chinese kids and international Chinese students... who are enjoying the freedom of information and expression in Western countries. They are basicly saying that what is good for them isn't for the others Chinese. Love hypocrisy <3 | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 15 2010 00:47 Boblion wrote: The funny thing is that it is the main argument of American Chinese kids and international Chinese students... who are enjoying the freedom of information and expression in Western countries. They are basicly saying that what is good for them isn't for the others Chinese. Love hypocrisy <3 It's not hypocritical at all. There's no hypocrisy in thinking that Western ideas without exposure to Western values and culture is dangerous, particularly since what separates those people from their counterparts is their exposure to Western values and culture. It might not be correct, but it's certainly not hypocritical. Do explain how this vast over-generalization applies to this specific context. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On January 15 2010 00:52 TheYango wrote: Do explain how this vast over-generalization applies to this specific context. Can't I just hold that truth to be self-evident? :p And it was in responce to ghostwriter saying democracy is overrated. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32130 Posts
On January 15 2010 00:39 KissBlade wrote: Eh threads on China inevitably devolves into people who's never been to the area, nor know of the situation criticizing people who actually live there being close minded and uninformed about their lives. PS. Hawk, I agree that freedom of information is a benefit to the population however, I'm not sure I agree that Russians would find the collapse of the Soviet Union "a good thing". Also, federal control does have it's benefits for a country when it comes to developing infrastructure. Many many countries proceed through the same steps including the US where our "toughest presidents" also happen to be the ones we remember. (Take Jackson, Lincoln, etc who was ALL about Federal control over state freedoms) Russian GDP is currently 6th. It's recovered quite well after the expected economic collapse due to the dissolvement of the USSR. Plus, it can easily be argued that the economic disaster there was a result of the HUGE spending on the military cuz of the cold war more than the change of government. Either way, that was expected, and plenty of people benefit from it now... and a lot of those who don't consider it a good thing are proud Russians who are upset that they essentially lost a power war and a ton of land, not neccessarily the change of government itself. Watch a Russian and a Ukrainian (or any other former satellite country) chat about politics. it's messy. And there's a HUGE difference between the federal control of China and Lincoln or other strong US presidents....that's not even close. | ||
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On January 15 2010 01:04 emucxg wrote: srsly why western ppl are so worried about chinese ppl = = Because China is poised to be the next big thing. Many analysts see China as a threat to the hegemony of the United States and their rapidly growing economy, in spite of the global recession, makes them a force to be reckoned with. China also has an enormous population. International Relations is a zero sum game, any increase in one country's power is necessarily preceded by the decline of another. | ||
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CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
http://digital.venturebeat.com/2010/01/14/google-china/ | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
In the first place, Chinese ethics are non-intellectual. It undergoes few of the rational, intuitive processes which gives men in the West the capacity for moral self-determination. The Chinese system is highly dependent on enviornmental factors. If a Chinaman reveres his elders, it is because his father had done so before him, and for no other reason. From a very young age, the Chinese child is versed in a constellation of arbitrary moral dictums which are likely to last his lifetime without ever being substantially revised. He knows what is right and wrong, but he is never curious as to why. The grouping of all humanity under some equal dignity like "human rights" is far too abstract and intellectualized a concept for the average Chinaman to heed. Secondly, from the Chinese perspective, the main problem of public life is not lack of freedom, but lack of order. Because of the disorder perpetually plaguing Chinese society, there are insufficient deterrents to bad behaviour, and insufficient incentives for good behaviour. While the average Chinaman may be no worse morally than his Western counterpart, the capacity for malicious individuals to wreak unimpeded mischief is incomparably greater in China. The clannishness of Chinese society means that social distinction is only dependent on proper behaviour to a small degree, while the conduct of local governments and local justice can often be described as feudal nepotism. Thus the central government in China is still seen by the majority of the country as a court of last appeal, the only rational actor capable of delivering justice in a profoundly irrational land. Therefore we can surmise, that the behaviour of the Chinese government, for all its heavy-handedness, is more or less in line with the ultimate wishes and inclinations of the majority of the Chinese people. Its behaviour more or less reflects certain native habits of thought and prejudices, while its deficiencies, so clear and damning to its foreign critics, more or less reflect the qualities of the Chinese people at large. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On January 13 2010 12:11 ilbh wrote: says the russian guy!! like that if you never had innocent killing in Russia and your country doesn't sell armament and finance terrorists countries like Syria, Iran, afghanistan, N Korea, etc. and your president respect his opponents, right? my family had to move away from Russia or they would be killed there, moved to poland and then to brazil, where they are respected, there is no racism, intolerance, etc.... USA spreads democracy, removing those crazy dictators who only leads their countries to wars and genocide. I hope they do the same with N. Korea and Iran, before they start sending nuclear bombs around. don't want to see Japan, S. Korea or Israel destroyed... or even European countries, since Iran is doing what they can to have missiles able to reach Europe. I know this thread is only informative about google and china, but I couldn't see his post and be quiet... edit: Im not saying that russian, n. korean or iranians are bad people, but their governants are... LOL I just saw this post and wanted to publicly laugh at the ignorance shown by this poster. The United States does not do anything for the sake of spreading democracy. Its actions are merely a product of its desire to increase profits. And no one finances more "terrorist countries" or sells more armaments than the United States. Also, I enjoy Harry Potter. The Order of the Phoenix was bad, but Half Blood Prince was pretty darn good in my opinion. Liking certain movies doesn't mean your friends are dumb. Plenty of people in America like Twilight, including pretty much every female I know. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On January 13 2010 12:11 ilbh wrote: says the russian guy!! like that if you never had innocent killing in Russia and your country doesn't sell armament and finance terrorists countries like Syria, Iran, afghanistan, N Korea, etc. and your president respect his opponents, right? my family had to move away from Russia or they would be killed there, moved to poland and then to brazil, where they are respected, there is no racism, intolerance, etc.... USA spreads democracy, removing those crazy dictators who only leads their countries to wars and genocide. I hope they do the same with N. Korea and Iran, before they start sending nuclear bombs around. don't want to see Japan, S. Korea or Israel destroyed... or even European countries, since Iran is doing what they can to have missiles able to reach Europe. I know this thread is only informative about google and china, but I couldn't see his post and be quiet... edit: Im not saying that russian, n. korean or iranians are bad people, but their governants are... The US are the ones who usually puts those dictators in power in the first place ... Hell, for those who didn't know, the US are the ones who put Saddam in power. If you actually did some research, you'll know the US does quite a few under the table situations where they would depose a ruler and put in a new (Crappier) one who would be amenable to US demands. However, on the other hand, consider that as an American citizen, you reap the benefits of those actions. | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On January 13 2010 10:02 Smorrie wrote: Sent the link to my friend in China.. his response: Can't see.. link is blocked. lmao lol the pic in the op made me laugh too | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
On January 15 2010 00:47 Boblion wrote: The funny thing is that it is the main argument of American Chinese kids and international Chinese students... who are enjoying the freedom of information and expression in Western countries. They are basicly saying that what is good for them isn't for the others Chinese. Love hypocrisy <3 comparing the education I received to the education of an average local Chinese school student is ridiculous and further cements my belief that you really don't know what you're talking about. The help and guidance from my teachers and parents, the environment and conditions under which the information was presented to me is very different. Simply saying that to successfully educate a child to be creative, multilingual, critical thinking etc is to expose him to a ton of unfiltered information? They would be bombarded with all sorts of things, off the top of my head pornography, anti government propaganda and cults like fa lun gong (if anyone says fa lun gong is not that bad im going to facepalm.jpg) and without the proper guidance of adults or smarter people this is of course bad. Imagine in the future you get married and have your own child. You would not expose him to violent movies like Pulp Fiction etc that kind of stuff at the age of 10. When he gets older and can make his own judgment that a movie is fake etc, then you would show it to him. And even if he sees a movie and asks you about it you would be able to give him a very good explanation of what he is seeing and tell him to not take it seriously. Simply letting him run free at the DVD store watching any movie he fancies and then hoping that someday he makes the connection that some movies are good, some are bad, some are just pure fiction etc, and not start making the wrong kind of friends that go around violating parks at night, start drinking, flunk school etc. No you wouldn't risk that because you know what is good for him and what he should be doing. He can have his freedom later. I know the above analogy is perhaps a little exaggerated but it's the best I can come up with right now. I'm fucking tired and going off to bed. I guess perhaps only time will tell who was right and who wasn't, but seriously, I look at China's history and how far China has come the last one hundred years... not many nations of the world progressed this much in such a short time period. Sacrifices have been made yes of course, but at least now people don't have to worry about which child in the family they should sell to put more food on the table. My parents lived through some rough times and their parents even rougher times. They and everyone around us acknowledge the sacrifices the government made but ultimately it really turned out for the greater common good. On January 14 2010 23:42 Velr wrote: The most astonishing feat Chinas government has achieved is to make its citizens believe that it's for their best to live in a dictatorship whiteout a way to influence the political course of their country. I disagree with the above quote. | ||
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TanGeng
Sanya12364 Posts
On January 14 2010 23:42 Velr wrote: The most astonishing feat Chinas government has achieved is to make its citizens believe that it's for their best to live in a dictatorship whiteout a way to influence the political course of their country. This is so funny that I find it hard to believe that it is being said with any seriousness. It's completely wrong that people don't have any influence. And the dictatorship is far from "an astonishing" feat. The real astonishment is that China has gotten so much more wealthy in such a short amount of time, but wealthy dictatorships aren't exactly unprecedented or astonishing either. Anyhow what the Chinese people have is pretty good. They have all the economic freedoms that they could really hope for. They don't have man civil freedoms. Finally the political freedoms are very restricted, but usually political freedom means the power to vote and take away economic or civil freedoms from others. Based on that idea, it's actually better that the Chinese government is seen as a bunch of semi-legitimate governing body repressing the population rather than a fully legitimate democracy repressing its people like many of the elected dictators of the European or South American history. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On January 14 2010 23:42 Velr wrote: The most astonishing feat Chinas government has achieved is to make its citizens believe that it's for their best to live in a dictatorship whiteout a way to influence the political course of their country. lolol This is hilarious. Unless someone on this forums is part of the Bilderberg group or something, nothing we do or say will have any kind of impact on the political courses of our respective countries. The thing about democracies is that they tell you in school that you are free and are able to choose. But a decision between two or three candidates that do not differ greatly is not a freely made decision at all. In a dictatorship, they don't lie to you and give you false hope. "Spreading freedom" LOL Jesus Christ, who would believe that kind of garbage. People only have influence when they're in a large group of like-minded people. Even then, they only have as much power as the ruling organization allows them to have. I thought that the situation in China sucked. I thought that it was good for businesses and stuff, but that there are still millions of people living in poverty and that the dichotomy between rich and poor was growing. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10873 Posts
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