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Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:12 Boblion wrote: To be fair you could have also quoted people who have a different opinion  Well I wasn't going to put in every of the like 10 quotes in my comment, I just chose the one I find most insightful. Anyways, I've seen what this thread has become, just wanted to contribute something...peace | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
Tsss he will tell you that now they invent more stuff than the U-K :O | ||
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Taku
Canada2036 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:13 KwarK wrote: The reason the Western world was able to subject China to the misery it did is because China stagnated. Chinese society simply wasn't evolving. Free speech was instrumental in the leap forward the west had which enabled them to progress far beyond China in a single century. At the time of that mission to exploit China China had been stagnant for several centuries and showed no inclination of changing. Heard of the 1421 Chinese expeditions? Basically China surveyed the rest of the world, circumnavigating it several times in technological and logistical feats that were hundreds of years ahead of the west. It was really quite incredible, they visited South America, Australia, east and west coast of America, Greenland and Russia. Unfortunately they then concluded the rest of the world was shit (which it kinda was in comparison to them) and isolated themselves. They stagnated, inventions stopped and a few hundred years later their river defences, in many cases cannon unchanged for hundreds of years, were destroyed by the state of the art British ironclads in the First Opium War. So your point makes no sense historically. You can talk forever about how good they used to be at inventing shit but that didn't change the fact that they changed for the worse. The China attacked by western powers was not the same China that invented all that stuff. So basically you're saying that China, having stagnated and degenerated into the state it did, deserved foreign intervention in that manner? | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On January 14 2010 23:39 Hawk wrote: Soviet Russia was #2 in the world, and less than ten years later, most of those ex-USSR countries saw an improvement in their GDP. The world didn't end. The world economy didn't come to a crashing halt. People got their freedom (at least in formally escaping the government, since Russian influence is still seen all over) and things kept on chugging right along. Are you kidding? The economies of the former USSR went to complete shit during the entire decade after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the collapse of the Soviet Union itself was comparatively orderly (no, it wasn't, but it wasn't violently overthrown, it was dismantled from above). And Soviet Russia was far more egalitarian than China is today, with far less levels of social unrest - China gets hundreds of riots every year, many of which need to be suppressed by thousands of police or soldiers. If the Chinese government were to collapse everything would go to shit. ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Soviet_Union_GDP_per_capita.gif) | ||
KwarK
United States42690 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:40 Taku wrote: So basically you're saying that China, having stagnated and degenerated into the state it did, deserved foreign intervention in that manner? Which part of my "subject China to the misery" and "exploit" did you read as a defence of what the European powers did to China? Obviously they didn't deserve exploitation. Nobody deserves exploitation. The ideal would have been a gentle guiding hand towards progress. But that's not how the world works. If you had to choose between western intervention and complete isolation (no communication between China and the the rest of the world) then western intervention is the lesser of two evils. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
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KwarK
United States42690 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote: So, Kwark, imperialism overall is a good thing? No, because the flow of ideas does not rely on imperialism. The flow of ideas is a good thing. Imperialism relies upon imposing the power of one country upon another which is a bad thing. I feel I'm making myself quite clear in these posts. In fact, in the post you're replying to I described it as an evil. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:13 TheYango wrote: As the moral values of a Chinese immigrant is tied to his community, so it may conform to his/her new environment as he/she enters a new community. This, arguably is what contributes to the unique worldview of Chinese expatriates, which you earlier deemed as hypocritical. Eh i was just using your reasoning. It was obviously ironic. Don't worry i don't think that the Chinese guys at my uni will stab me. However i have still troubles to understand. What is so bad about the environment and the community in China to change the wonderful adaptative Chinese immigrant into a dangerous persona ? Stealing, lieing, killing aren't perceived morally bad ? I think that some Chinese have already stated in this thread that they disagree with this idea. I also think we agreed before that the average human beings have the same fundamental moral values ( at least regarding murder / robbery ) and i don't know why the Chinese would became serial killers or thieves because of more freedom of expression. It seems that you can't understand that freedom of expression is compatible with order and justice. Money to hire policemen and juges shouldn't be a problem with the impressive China GPD growth. Also China has billions to hire teachers and build schools everywhere and teach kids proper morals. Eh they are already quite good when it comes to teach bs nationalism. Again i know it is cliche to use the Indian example but i'm pretty sure that they have living conditions as bad if not worse than the average Chinese guy. Corruption and crime are rampant ( in China too sup Wen Qiang ) but they still have freedom of expression. You will probably say that half of the population is too illiterate or poor to care about politics but w/e India is still rising. I think that the real reason for the lack of freedom of expression is not that crime rate will skyrocket but that people will question the legitimacy of the government and since it has none except its power well i guess that it makes the top guys of the CCP quite insecure. So basicly i think that the "not ready for" argument is just a pretext for immobilism hence the same guys can stay in power. | ||
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Dracid
United States280 Posts
Things might change with time, things might not, but regardless I don't presume to know what's best for the country, yet so many people who have never been there do? It's surprising how many people would advocate that an entire regime be overthrown just because they don't uphold western values. Nevermind the fallout that a revolution would cause, it's this "we know what's best for the rest of the world" mentality that allowed imperialism to thrive. | ||
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Idig
China10 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:57 Boblion wrote: I think that the real reason for the lack of freedom of expression is not that crime rate will skyrocket but that people will question the legitimacy of the government and since it has none except its power well i guess that it makes the top guys of the CCP quite insecure. So basicly i think that the "not ready for" argument is just a pretext for immobilism hence the same guys can stay in power. That's the truth. Perhaps there are not so many people knowing how the CCP got their political power by cheating the masses during the civil war to the Chinese Nationalist Party. If the guys of the CCP lose its control of speech, they will die just like their opponent 60 years ago. | ||
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reit
Canada209 Posts
On January 13 2010 10:12 ShoCkeyy wrote: Don't be fooled, he doesn't work for google. Some one already posted facts that google is barely used in China. And I'm sure that if this had happened to any company, they would do the same. Who the f*** are you to say who does or doesn't work for google? Thank lord I'm not a mod I'd ban you just for that. Fuckkkk I hate people like you | ||
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reit
Canada209 Posts
On January 13 2010 12:51 Athos wrote: Fuck you Can you please not spread anti-semitic propaganda around here? That video is totally bullshit and is the exact same lie that put Hitler in power. The great Jewish conspiracy has been around forever and has absolutely no truth behind it at all. The second video is from Campaign for Liberty. I feel offended that you associate such a noble cause with your bullshit "anti-semitic propaganda" label. There is truth behind all stereotypes. Jews don't carry a gold bag around their necks, but you're blind if you don't see what the Jewish lobby does in the United States. | ||
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
On January 15 2010 16:38 Idig wrote: That's the truth. Perhaps there are not so many people knowing how the CCP got their political power by cheating the masses during the civil war to the Chinese Nationalist Party. If the guys of the CCP lose its control of speech, they will die just like their opponent 60 years ago. TL threads are always the most interesting. Be it on any topic from how to defend a 12 nex to the state of "free speech" in China. Anyway, some random points. 1.) People have been citing LA Times. While LA Times isn't a "biased" news source in the way one might think, you can see from the articles they choose to put on their front-page (not that anybody reads newspapers anymore) that they have a pretty clear Anti-China agenda. Count the frequency of Anti-China articles on their front pages over any span in the past few years compared to... say... the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal. A trend should be obvious. 2.) Idig, you are vastly oversimplifying what happened in the CCP's rise to power. It was as much propaganda by the CCP as the clear and obvious mistakes made by the Nationalists. The discourse of the day was anti-imperialist and (therefore) anti-traditionalist. The forceful wind of Nationalism clearly blew against the belief and behavior of the Nationalist party (irony intended). 3.) I respect Google for taking the stand. On one hand I believe it is still a political justification for a long-term economic decision. On the other, maybe something good can come of this! (probably not though.) 4.) Yeah.... China is pretty messed up right now (as a developing economy) and if I were in their Politburo I would most definitely continue to restrict free access to information. As pyro keenly stated, and I echoed in point 2, China's nationalistic discourse continues to be rooted largely on Post-Coloniality... the Korean War slogans like "China can say no, too!" while not as obvious reflect a continuing paranoia to the threat of exploitation. That's why there's a political shitstorm any time Japan does a military exercise (even if it's clearly directed towards NK), or Taiwan talks about Independence. I don't believe China is going to be ready to engage in that step of its development until its per-cap GDP is anywhere near half that of the developed world. What Pyro said, in my worthless opinion, reflects a trickling down of the nationalist ideology onto the individual psyche of the chinese citizen. If my nation is strong, I am strong; but if my nation is made the West's bitch, I'm made a bitch too. My roommate is from a small(er) city in China than Beijing/HK/SH and I intend to ask him about this more tomorrow... but my sense is that in poorer parts of the country, many people feel that, based on their standard of living, they've been made bitches, which based on the previous logic, stirs up anti-Western sentiment. Long story short.... free information + current China = shitstorm waiting to happen. 5.) I love TL and realize I have not cited any sources! Feel free to hit me with criticism, and I'll try to find data in the next week or so (when i get a chance) to back my lofty bullshit claims. Thanks everybody and much love be going around! <3 | ||
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gchan
United States654 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:48 EmeraldSparks wrote: So, Kwark, imperialism overall is a good thing? What an awful way to look at history. History isn't good or bad--it just is. It's causality. Things happen, and subsequently, there are consequences. You can't really apply contemporary morality to situations that happened centuries ago as circumstances were completely different back then. Not to mention, documentation is subject to huge bias so the "truth" of what really happened is difficult to discern. | ||
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Dracid
United States280 Posts
On January 15 2010 17:13 gchan wrote: What an awful way to look at history. History isn't good or bad--it just is. It's causality. Things happen, and subsequently, there are consequences. You can't really apply contemporary morality to situations that happened centuries ago as circumstances were completely different back then. Not to mention, documentation is subject to huge bias so the "truth" of what really happened is not difficult to discern. Going to have to disagree with you here. I think one of the big benefits to studying history is precisely so that we can look at what went right and what went wrong, and learn from it. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. | ||
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KwarK
United States42690 Posts
Edit: In the introduction to The Peloponnesian War by Thucydides, the first modern historical book, Thucydides writes that one of his goals is that through the recording of the war mankind can learn to avoid such pointless destruction. It was written over 2400 years ago. | ||
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gchan
United States654 Posts
What he was doing was applying our morals today, to decisions made in the past. Thats what I was disagreeing with. Edit: And not only that, they were events that happened centuries ago. The more recent the "history," the more applicable I think it is to today. Applying contemporary morality to things that happened 50 years ago is a lot more relevant than applying contemporary morality to events that happened centuries or millenia ago. | ||
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Taku
Canada2036 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
On January 15 2010 15:40 Taku wrote: So basically you're saying that China, having stagnated and degenerated into the state it did, deserved foreign intervention in that manner? Stop bringing that victim crap into the argument. Kwark used his case as an example to validate progressive thinking and sharing of knowledge. Something so fundamental yet so absent amongst Chinese academics and ridiculed in Chinese culture for so long. | ||
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Dracid
United States280 Posts
History is biased and subjective, but that doesn't necessarily mean you can't apply contemporary morality to past events. I admit that it's stupid to simply look at past events and denounce them as horrible by contemporary standards (how popular was the topic of eugenics back in the day?), but it's still helpful to look at such events and realize why we consider them terrible. I'm not going to argue why slavery and the holocaust were bad, most people accept this as a given. The problem is that we tend to oversimplify things. We think eugenics and racism are terrible, and denounce them. The idea behind eugenics itself is not inherently immoral, and we'll see it practiced to varying degrees in the future regardless of ethical debates. Racism might be a bad thing, but outright rejecting it means you're ignorant to subconscious biases you might have, which are problematic of themselves. My point is simply that given an open-minded approach to history, taking into account how mindsets were different back then, we can still look at past events in terms of morality. In this case, the point is not to forget the mentality behind imperialism, and what happened the last time western powers decided they had all the right answers for the rest of the world. I agree that EmeraldSparks was oversimplifying things, as it is debatable whether or not western intervention for China was a good thing. Still, I do think the lessons of imperialism should be remembered here, in that the west does not necessarily have China's interests in mind when their media is constantly harping about the evils of censorship and how the Chinese lack freedom. | ||
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