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Google's New Approach to China - Page 15

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TwoSugarsAndACream
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada21 Posts
January 15 2010 16:31 GMT
#281
On January 16 2010 01:20 old times sake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2010 20:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote:

And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.


You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?

During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.

There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.

And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.

LOL.

Same as America! Same as America!

Lines? just LOL.

H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?

Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.

And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?


I was going to say this doesn't make sense but KissBlade posted b4 me. No one said it was ok for Chinese to be racist...most of the racist comments in this post were directed at Chinese and not whites, so I don't see your point.

You might think this is cliche, but you don't know what it is like for a Chinese person (speaking for myself) being called a Ch**k and Chinaman and there is nothing I can do about it...because I am chinese.

But seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about sometimes, cat-dog-lion-meow-woof-chihuahua dude.
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-15 17:30:13
January 15 2010 16:33 GMT
#282
I'm sure that American entities do just as much hacking, if not more, than Chinese entities do. It's not like China has a monopoly on hacking know-how.
Sullifam
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
January 15 2010 17:25 GMT
#283
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/15/world/asia/15diplo.html?ref=technology

But while much of the evidence, including the sophistication of the attacks, strongly suggested an operation run by Chinese government agencies, or at least approved by them, company engineers could not definitively prove their case.
Cue nationalist indignation.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Orlandu
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
China2450 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-15 17:58:17
January 15 2010 17:51 GMT
#284
On January 16 2010 01:33 ghostWriter wrote:
I'm sure that American entities do just as much hacking, if not more, than Chinese entities do. It's not like China has a monopoly on hacking know-how.


They don't have a monopoly, they're not even particularly that great at it, it's just the unusually high number of attacks that come out of China that are significant (as well as some of their targets). Considering China's large population and the interests of the government, that's really not that unexpected though.

If you really do some research about computer security and the origin of many cyber attacks that organizations face, you'll see that China really is a bit of a special case. No one's claiming innocence, but believe me when I say that the U.S. and other countries (excluding maybe Russia, but I don't believe even Russia quite compares) definitely do not launch as many cyber attacks as China. There are good reasons for that, and they're not necessarily moral ones either.

And as the article that Jibba posted explains, even though there has been quite a bit of evidence over the years regarding the original source of many of these cyber attacks, unfortunately due to the nature of how these things work, it is really difficult to gather the solid evidence necessary in order to legally point the blame at the Chinese government. That's part of why more can't be done about the issue.

Here's an interesting excerpt from that article:

Computer experts who track the thousands of daily attacks on corporate and government computer sites report that the majority of sophisticated attacks seem to emanate from China. What they cannot say is whether the hackers are operating on behalf of the Chinese state or in a haven that the Chinese have encouraged.

The latest episode illuminates the ambiguities.

For example, the servers that carried out many of the attacks were based in Taiwan, though a Google executive said "it only took a few seconds to determine that the real origin was on the mainland." And at Google's headquarters in Mountain View, there is little doubt that Beijing was behind the attacks. Partly that is because while Mr. Obama was hailing a new era of cautious cooperation with China, Google was complaining of mounting confrontation, chiefly over Chinese pressure on it to make sure Chinese users could not directly link to the American-based "google.com" site, to evade much of the censorship the company had reluctantly imposed on its main Chinese portal, google.cn.

"Everything we are learning is that in this case the Chinese government got caught with its hand in the cookie jar," said James A. Lewis, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, who consulted for the White House on cybersecurity last spring. "Would it hold up in court? No. But China is the only government in the world obsessed about Tibet, and that issue goes right to the heart of their vision of political survival and putting down the separatists' movements."


Again, no one's claiming that other countries are innocent, that would be pretty naive. But most people who know about computer security or have military experience will tell you that China is a special case regarding cyber attacks.
We cant give up just because things arent the way we want them to be.
old times sake
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
165 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-15 18:01:00
January 15 2010 17:57 GMT
#285
On January 16 2010 01:31 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2010 01:20 old times sake wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote:

And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.


You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?

During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.

There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.

And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.

LOL.

Same as America! Same as America!

Lines? just LOL.

H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?

Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.

And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?


I was going to say this doesn't make sense but KissBlade posted b4 me. No one said it was ok for Chinese to be racist...most of the racist comments in this post were directed at Chinese and not whites, so I don't see your point.

You might think this is cliche, but you don't know what it is like for a Chinese person (speaking for myself) being called a Ch**k and Chinaman and there is nothing I can do about it...because I am chinese.

But seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about sometimes, cat-dog-lion-meow-woof-chihuahua dude.

I said I'm Chinese. Way to read.

besides, what's your point, that racism justifies racial pride or defending someone because of their race? China has all the problems my posts said, and more. China attacked Google. Name another corporation that was attacked by a government with a shred of respect. I don't see any corporations suing the U.S. for hacking them. If you made a list of countries who are capable of this you would have a list of screwed up countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, etc. China intentionally puts itself in that category. If you think that's good judgment then go join the Taliban, k? Obviously China is better than that, and has many good people. How many more times does this need to be said? That doesn't mean that we should stick up for its government or make excuses for what was obviously a stupid act.

This isn't about China having "freedom", it's about not stabbing its partners in the back. This is a low blow by any standards and yet, if you look at the way China behaves, there is no reason to be surprised _at all_. That's saying a lot.
Lol it's so funny watching the level of posting deteriorate so rapidly when supporters of this decision are confronted with such nefarious things as REASONS. --fanatacist
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-15 18:02:27
January 15 2010 18:01 GMT
#286
Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.
Sullifam
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
January 15 2010 18:10 GMT
#287
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote:
Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.

Where does your political expertise come from?
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
January 15 2010 18:14 GMT
#288
On January 16 2010 03:10 Jibba wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote:
Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.

Where does your political expertise come from?


You don't have to be an expert to have an opinion.
Sullifam
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
January 15 2010 18:15 GMT
#289
On January 16 2010 03:14 ghostWriter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2010 03:10 Jibba wrote:
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote:
Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.

Where does your political expertise come from?


You don't have to be an expert to have an opinion.


um what you stated was more factual than opinionated though ^_^
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
ghostWriter
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States3302 Posts
January 15 2010 18:16 GMT
#290
On January 16 2010 03:15 Ace wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2010 03:14 ghostWriter wrote:
On January 16 2010 03:10 Jibba wrote:
On January 16 2010 03:01 ghostWriter wrote:
Either way, it's a difficult diplomatic position since it's politically impossible to confront a country that owns a significant portion of your debt.

Where does your political expertise come from?


You don't have to be an expert to have an opinion.


um what you stated was more factual than opinionated though ^_^


True, but it's not like I'm making governmental policy. I'm just posting on a gaming forum.
Sullifam
TwoSugarsAndACream
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada21 Posts
January 15 2010 18:57 GMT
#291
On January 16 2010 02:57 old times sake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 16 2010 01:31 TwoSugarsAndACream wrote:
On January 16 2010 01:20 old times sake wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote:

And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.


You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?

During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.

There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.

And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.

LOL.

Same as America! Same as America!

Lines? just LOL.

H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?

Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.

And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?


I was going to say this doesn't make sense but KissBlade posted b4 me. No one said it was ok for Chinese to be racist...most of the racist comments in this post were directed at Chinese and not whites, so I don't see your point.

You might think this is cliche, but you don't know what it is like for a Chinese person (speaking for myself) being called a Ch**k and Chinaman and there is nothing I can do about it...because I am chinese.

But seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about sometimes, cat-dog-lion-meow-woof-chihuahua dude.

I said I'm Chinese. Way to read.

besides, what's your point, that racism justifies racial pride or defending someone because of their race? China has all the problems my posts said, and more. China attacked Google. Name another corporation that was attacked by a government with a shred of respect. I don't see any corporations suing the U.S. for hacking them. If you made a list of countries who are capable of this you would have a list of screwed up countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, etc. China intentionally puts itself in that category. If you think that's good judgment then go join the Taliban, k? Obviously China is better than that, and has many good people. How many more times does this need to be said? That doesn't mean that we should stick up for its government or make excuses for what was obviously a stupid act.

This isn't about China having "freedom", it's about not stabbing its partners in the back. This is a low blow by any standards and yet, if you look at the way China behaves, there is no reason to be surprised _at all_. That's saying a lot.


When did I DEFEND the chinese government? All I said in my original post was leave China alone. I guess I was too defensive saying people should stop flaming China and Chinese people in general. Wait what?

Why would I go join Taliban? I don't get it. When did I EVER say China did the right thing by supposedly hacking Google? Stop shoving words in people's mouth and stop, I mean stop, telling me I shouldn't have racial pride. And how am I racist? Because I don't believe your dog-meow-cat-cat theory and your other "Maybe [your] typing this keeps the moon from crashing into the Earth" theory? Like, wtf man? Do you know what you say sometimes?
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
January 16 2010 00:05 GMT
#292
On January 16 2010 01:20 old times sake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 15 2010 20:54 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On January 15 2010 20:30 old times sake wrote:

And yeah I've been in China and lived there and it doesn't run efficiently at all. Sorry. Tell me how you get a train ticket or any ticket to travel in China and tell me how that's efficient and "running well" Tell me about the hospitals. Tell me how many schools there have soap, even during H1N1 outbreak. Tell me what hours cabs don't pick people up because it's "between shifts." Tell me more brilliant things. Hell, tell me what exactly you think is done well there. Just name a couple things--should be easy.


You buy a train ticket the same way you buy a train ticket or a plane ticket in America. I have no idea what you're going on about - do you think it's less efficient because the lines are longer or something?

During the H1N1 outbreak, the actions by the Chinese government, albeit slightly extreme, have generally been credited as preventing a much bigger spread of the virus in China considering its population density, compared to, say, SARS.

There are far more cabs in New York City that are always not picking people up than in China. I can't believe you think taxi drivers who don't pick people up is a result of...I don't even know what you're saying here. Your examples are getting more and more inane.

And to the first part of your post, you basically think no one should ever take pride or be loyal to anyone. Gotcha.

LOL.

Same as America! Same as America!

Lines? just LOL.

H1N1 at first was denied. Everyone in China would tell you "we don't have that here." They would think only Americans had it. This is because this is what they were told to believe for a long time. They had no idea whether it was dangerous or not. They simply denied that it was present in China for a long time. It could have wiped China out if it turned out to be dangerous. Tell me how that's an efficient system of governance?

Cabs? You are saying there is a 1-2 hour period daily in NYC where you can't get a cab--dinner time! O RLY? Gotcha yourself, you make no sense.

And yeah, pride is stupid, especially racial pride, let alone remote racial pride. It ruins the world. Stand up for it if you want. If I was white and not Chinese, I would look ridiculous standing up for German or French or Irish heritage, defending stupid mistakes of their governments or their citizens and framing all criticism as racism against whites. Somehow with other races though it's okay for them to be racist. Probably because you look down on us. You think we need the extra boost of racism--only whites can really be racist, right? Is that it?


... You are either really really high or just insecure or maybe you are just trolling.
Rillanon.au
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
January 16 2010 00:09 GMT
#293
What conclusive evidence does anyone have that the Chinese government is facilitating these attacks?

I mean so far everyone just keep saying that the attacks come from China. It's not that hard to build a botnet in China consider that the vast majority of PCs are pirated.
Rillanon.au
iloahz
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States964 Posts
January 16 2010 00:51 GMT
#294
I think there is no conclusive evidence that reveals Chinese government's direct involvement in the attacks, but there are much evidence that suggests so. First, the hacked gmail accounts are from political dissidents and Tibetan independence advocates, which no one in the world except the Chinese government is interested in monitoring. Second, the hack is highly organized and sophisticated and Google claims no amateur is possibly capable of, so the government should at least be involved to some extent.
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Australia8267 Posts
January 16 2010 01:00 GMT
#295
Or it could be that another government or organisation with the same capability used botnets in China to attack google and went with human rights gmails to frame Chinese government.

It's stupid. What does hacking into the gmail of people gain you? except maybe a date or time of protests.
Rillanon.au
StarsPride
Profile Joined January 2010
United States364 Posts
January 16 2010 02:00 GMT
#296
will china add TL to banlist soon?
InfC.Pride
BalliSLife
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
1339 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-16 02:03:28
January 16 2010 02:03 GMT
#297
On January 16 2010 11:00 StarsPride wrote:
will china add TL to banlist soon?


No because then we won't be able to relay info to f91 and PJ.

I just hit the bong
Ya well, at least I don't fuck a fleshlight with a condom on and cry at the same time.
Orlandu
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
China2450 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-16 10:34:03
January 16 2010 10:27 GMT
#298
On January 16 2010 10:00 haduken wrote:
Or it could be that another government or organisation with the same capability used botnets in China to attack google and went with human rights gmails to frame Chinese government.

It's stupid. What does hacking into the gmail of people gain you? except maybe a date or time of protests.


I've had to study and write far more reports on this particular topic than I've cared to, and while I'll say that at first I tended to share your opinion and be a bit more open-minded about things, after awhile things really start to add up and you have to start facing reality. I'm not an expert, and even if I was, again due to the nature of these things it's hard to prove something like government involvement with 100% certainty, so it's difficult to explain why so many people are so certain that the government is behind these sorts of attacks unless you really understand a lot about computer security yourself. Most people would not be familiar with even the terminology, and that's quite true for this website as well, as was painfully evident with the whole 4chan vs. AT&T incident awhile back that people kept horribly misunderstanding.

But to answer your question about what hacking into someone's account gets you access to... Think about all the possible correspondences. Someone who's a human rights activist is obviously looking for a safe, reliable way to communicate regarding such issues, and simply put, Chinese e-mail services are not safe or reliable under such a context. Therefore, hacking such accounts potentially provides a wealth of information regarding who these activists really are, what they plan to do, who they're corresponding with, really anything that the account owner was willing to use the account for. It's not "just" an e-mail account, there are dangerous things those kinds of people are dealing with, and it certainly goes further than just the date or time of a protest. People's lives are potentially on the line, and I'm sure that we'll all agree a person's life is a big deal.

Whether most of these attacks originate in China is not much of an argument: they simply do. You'll have to trust the experts on that unless you want to study all about computer security yourself, because again, that's not something that people here will be able to explain very easily. What is up for debate is whether or not the government is involved in some way. Again, as Jibba's article pointed out, legally there is not enough evidence. Computer security and forensics is a tricky thing, and gathering evidence that will hold up in court, even in simple local cases, can often times be difficult. However to ignore all of the evidence that does point to the government, and to ignore all of the logic and common sense of a normal human being, is also not very wise. Sure, someone could be trying to frame China. But if so they've wasted a whole lot of time and put themselves at a whole lot of risk, and are pretty damn good and extremely shitty at what they do at the same time: that is, to be able to consistently mask their true location so well without actually being able to do much of what they're trying to accomplish. That's just not a very likely scenario. Possible I guess, but common sense tells you that's probably not the case.

Anyway, whether or not the government is really involved, if they don't want to be blamed, then they really need to be more active in preventing such incidents. As it is, if they are truly not involved, then they really aren't doing much (if anything at all) to stop these sorts of attacks, and that's not very responsible of a government. Especially when it's causing big problems such as this. That's really the bottom line here.
We cant give up just because things arent the way we want them to be.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
January 16 2010 16:26 GMT
#299
Courtesy of FT:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc906ade-0225-11df-8b56-00144feabdc0.html
+ Show Spoiler +


China and the west: Full circle
By James Kynge
Published: January 15 2010 22:42 | Last updated: January 15 2010 22:42

A 17th century map placing China at the centre of the world
Just as cicadas thrum more urgently at the start of autumn, sensing that the end is nigh, internet users in China have been seizing in animated fashion on what one called “the last crazy days of Google.cn”.

With the US technology giant allowing uncensored searches in Chinese for the first time, citizens of the People’s Republic are this week indulging their curiosity ahead of a widely expected crackdown.

“I’ve been doing all sorts of crazy searches, really distracting myself from my work,” says one. “I’ve done Tiananmen Square, the love affairs of national leaders, the corruption of leaders’ children. Everything.”

Another internet user says the buzz of illicit abandon is reminiscent of the mood in Tiananmen Square itself, shortly before the People’s Liberation Army crushed the protests there in 1989. “There is no way that Google will get away with this. They will have to leave China for sure,” he adds.

The surreptitious joys of “netizens” may not be alone in existing on borrowed time. Google’s defiance of China’s censorship regime is indicative of much more than a single company’s decision to reassert its open-society principles over the pragmatism by which it originally entered the Chinese market, agreeing then to self-censor in return for business licences. Google’s move may suggest that the accommodations made by western companies in China can extend only so far before contorted values snap back into place.

More broadly, though, Google’s actions present at least a symbolic challenge to a broad swath of assumptions that has underpinned the west’s engagement with China over the past 30 years. In particular, they raise the question as to whether missionary capitalism – the prevalent but fuzzy belief that the west’s commercial engagement may somehow bring about a Chinese political liberalisation – has ever been more than a naive hope.

In Google’s experience, for example, the longer it operated in China, the more search words it was forced to ban and the greater the number of cyberattacks it fielded from Chinese sources.

In fact, in the opinion of several Chinese officials, the process of engagement in which successive US and other western governments have invested so much time and effort, may not have enamoured the Chinese public to the west at all. One senior Communist party official, speaking on condition of anonymity several weeks prior to Google’s move, said he saw a general regression in public disposition to the west.

“Even though Chinese, and especially Chinese youth, know the west better than ever before and there are many more exchanges and contacts between China and your countries than in the past, the west is less popular now among Chinese people than at any time since ‘reform and opening’ began [in 1978],” the official said. Indeed, anyone who regularly reads the postings of Chinese netizens will notice that comments critical of the west frequently far outnumber those that are positive.

Against this backdrop, Google’s decision prompts one of the simplest but furthest-reaching questions of all: how should the west deal with China? Or, to put a finer point on it, how can an international system created under Pax Americana to serve the interests of the west accommodate a rising giant that is set to remain different in almost every aspect – politics, values, history, natural endowments and per capita wealth – from the incumbent ruling order?

Even posing the question can elicit shock. James Mann, a former Beijing bureau chief for the Los Angeles Times, notes in his 2007 book, The China Fantasy, that although it is still theoretically possible that the country may yet morph into a democracy that promotes civil liberties and fosters an independent judiciary, the belief that this is a likely outcome is sheer self-delusion.

“America hasn’t thought much about what it might mean for the United States and the rest of the world to have a repressive, one-party state in China three decades from now because it is widely assumed that China is destined for a political liberalisation, leading eventually to democracy,” Mr Mann writes.

Multinational corporations are particularly susceptible to this type of China delusion, partly because the job of the person appointed to run China operations depends on being able to persuade his or her board that, although there may be difficulties, things are headed in a broadly benign direction. But if the definition of benign deployed by such China boosters includes assurances that the rule of law, protection for intellectual property, civil liberties and democracy will soon take root, the board may be in for a long wait.

As Kellee Tsai makes clear in her 2007 book, Capitalism Without Democracy, Beijing expends considerable effort to neutralise mechanisms by which its capitalist economy might create pressures for the formation of democratic checks and balances. One main strategy has been to keep the private sector loyal to the ruling Communist party. In 2003, for example, some 34 per cent of private entrepreneurs were party members, up from just 7 per cent in 1991.

If China therefore remains resolutely different from other countries that have prospered under Pax Americana even as it joins the world, how should the west react? One school of thought sees acceptance as key. “To think that commercial engagement by the west would change China misunderstands the nature of how change is likely to occur in China,” says Rana Mitter, professor of the history and politics of modern China at Oxford University. “Change has to come from within.”

According to Prof Mitter, China and the west should drop any pretence at harmony in their relationship and seek not to accentuate their similarities but to understand the context of their manifold differences. His position is echoed by some Chinese academics, who see Beijing’s inclination towards characterising its bilateral relationships in officially positive terms as unhelpful.

“China is a huge, independent and successful country that doesn’t want to be dictated to by the west,” says Shi Yinhong, professor of international relations at Renmin University. “Both sides need to learn to accommodate each other.”

One thing that westerners often misunderstand about China, says Prof Mitter, is that the relationship between state and society is different from that in western democracies. “It is fair to say that [in China] the broad norm is that the state and society have obligations to each other and that society acquiesces in the state’s project,” he says. “The assumption is that state and society are part of the same enterprise.” In western democracies, by contrast, society tends to have a more oppositional relationship with the governing elite.

This insight may go some way towards explaining the ease with which China’s propaganda authorities are able to channel western criticisms of China into outpourings of anti-western cyber-rage or patriotic fealty. In the case of Google, just hours after the news broke of its change of mind on censorship, party-affiliated newspapers began to play on the widespread sensitivity to a history of humiliations by the west to construct a great wall of patriotic fervour.

The Global Times, a subsidiary of the People’s Daily, asked thousands of its readers if they thought the Chinese government should submit to Google’s conditions. The survey generated an overwhelming response to the effect that Beijing should stand up to Google.

Other official media followed similar lines. In a commentary called “Google, who do you want to scare?” published by Shanghai’s Wenhui Daily, a writer characterised Google’s strategy as a “mixture of typical American naivety and western self-centrism”

For many a policymaker in the west, however, there is a world of difference between trying to understand China’s unique national character and dealing with a projection of Chinese power beyond its borders, especially when that power is tilted against western interests. In this respect, last month’s multilateral negotiations on climate change in Copenhagen were a shrill wake-up call.

“Copenhagen showed us the new normal,” wrote Leslie H. Gelb in the online Daily Beast. “The US has lost influence, China plays spoiler and tiny nations veto anything they don’t like.”

During the Copenhagen negotiations, China allied itself with some 77 developing countries to resist a legally binding treaty on climate change and opposed a mechanism of independent inspections that was intended to confirm emission control targets were being met. Frustration with China’s role was clear both during the summit and in comments by western participants afterwards. As a senior official from one developed country put it: “China cannot be allowed to appropriate the developing world like this again.”

But if the west wants to enter a beauty contest as China’s rival for the affections of the developing world, it may find it tough going. In Africa, for instance, China’s trade volume is likely last year to have overtaken that of the US, while in many African capitals Beijing’s brand of quick, no-nonsense investment assistance has won it a keen following.

But no matter how frustrated the west becomes with China, its interests are so intertwined that “doing a Google” on any large scale may not be an option. The developed world may simply have to resign itself to an adversarial symbiosis with China that grows ever more rancorous with time.

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ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
haduken
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
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January 16 2010 16:43 GMT
#300
We certainly live in very intersting times.
Rillanon.au
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