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On November 20 2009 12:09 furymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole. I wonder how many people will tip more when mandatory gratuity comes into play, doesn't that make you feel that the mandatory gratuity already covers the excellent service they provide? Resulting in the loss of waiters/waitress.
...resulting in the loss of waiters? what? i don't follow.
as a guest, you would only tip more if you feel the server deserved more than the 18% grat that's already added to the bill. i don't think that happens much though, and because 20% is considered the the standard "good tip", that's why a server would take off the automatic grat and leave it up to the guest.
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On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
hell yes that couple should have been arrested. plain and simple they didn't pay their bill. just deciding that they're not going to pay what they're required to is stupid. they got what was coming to them.
On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole. "Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.
“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said."
I think that's a valid complaint. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if people were to leave a restaurant after waiting for 40+ mins after ordering.
On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
hell yes that couple should have been arrested. plain and simple they didn't pay their bill. just deciding that they're not going to pay what they're required to is stupid. they got what was coming to them.
dining and dashing? are you kidding?! often the server ends up being the person having to cover the tab... it's a pretty messed up thing to do. There's a fine line between not paying anything at all and not paying a controversial service fee (gratuity). How did you label that as dining and dashing?
On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
often the server ends up being the person having to cover the tab... it's a pretty messed up thing to do. Can anyone else confirm this? Anyone had to or know someone who had to cover a customer's tab?
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Glad I live in Australia. The only time I've ever tipped is when there's been a tip jar and I've had a lot of loose change in my pocket. IMO restaurants should pay their employees a decent salary and not expect tips. If the waiters do a shit job it shouldn't be up to the customer to feel obligated to pay them. The boss should just give them a warning or fire them.
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On November 20 2009 12:14 Railxp wrote:
the question that should be asked is not "should we pay tips or not?" but rather "why the fuck did the police arrest them? or get involved at all?"
i mean, surely even as a officer they would have had the experience of getting bad service in a restaurant and not wanting to tip. By definition of "gratuity", it isn't theft. And surely there are more important things going on that concerns the police.
like someone else mentioned in here, alcohol was likely involved (lol they were at a pub). a pretty likely scenario:
in the hour that they waited for their food, they had a few beers and talked amongst themselves about how terrible their server was, how they shouldn't be treated like that, where they should've gone instead, what they were going to say to the manager, etc.. by the time the manager became aware of the incident, it was probably already a very heated situation as the people were really opinionated about how they were wronged.
definitely a bad call by the management/wait staff though. calling the cops over $16 is dumb. but the guests were even more stupid for not paying their bill. if the gratuity is part of the bill, not paying it is theft. call it a service charge or whatever you want; it's still the same thing.
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On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote:
lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
"Ya, come on in to our restaurant, you may get crap service but if you dont tip you will be arrested! Enjoy!"
..its $16, enjoy the bad rep you get now lol
That is pretty much standard at restaurants in America, as far as I know, for parties over six. It's not for parties under six.
The title is misleading for sure, but it does beg the question: should you be obligated to pay "gratuity" for shitty service? I don't care if it's an "inconvenience" to the restaurant to have large parties, the only way they survive is with the customers. I work in retail, and to me, all customers are an inconvenience, but I also accept the fact that they're absolutely necessary for the company I work for to survive, so if you can't handle the inconvenience of large parties, get the fuck out of that line of work. At the same time, there are so many cheap motherfuckers out there that, because of the extra needs of large parties, I understand the mandatory gratuity.
I think the bar owner is lying about offering to comp the meals. If they offered to comp the meals, they certainly wouldn't give a damn about $16, since the meals were obviously quite a lot more than $16.
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If you don't work hard for your tip, then there is no difference between a sit in restaurant and a fast food joint, don't you think?
Bill for the food you ate, tip for the service you received.
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On November 20 2009 12:19 citrus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2009 12:09 furymonkey wrote:On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole. I wonder how many people will tip more when mandatory gratuity comes into play, doesn't that make you feel that the mandatory gratuity already covers the excellent service they provide? Resulting in the loss of waiters/waitress. ...resulting in the loss of waiters? what? i don't follow. as a guest, you would only tip more if you feel the server deserved more than the 18% grat that's already added to the bill. i don't think that happens much though, and because 20% is considered the the standard "good tip", that's why a server would take off the automatic grat and leave it up to the guest.
Sorry I meant "loss for the waiters", because those "mandatory gratuity" make me feel that I already tip enough for their service (even if it's excellent), but infact they wouldn't get the bonus that I think they truly deserve. Because before this thread, I didn't know waiter's wages in the states, mainly comes from these "mandatory grauity".
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If your gonna make it law that you must play a tip you might as well abolish tips entirely and incorporate the tip into the price of the food. Then tips can actually be a complementary thing that you add on top if you are happy with service.
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On November 20 2009 12:20 domane wrote:
Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.
“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said."
I think that's a valid complaint. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if people were to leave a restaurant after waiting for 40+ mins after ordering.
no doubt that is bad service. it's likely that they had a tab of drinks going as well, which is why they wouldn't just leave. the news report only mentioned them waiting for one item (chicken fingers and fries), not everything. if they indeed were served nothing for an hour after having ordered, they probably would have left.
There's a fine line between not paying anything at all and not paying a controversial service fee (gratuity). How did you label that as dining and dashing?
the comment about dining and dashing was directed at some other posts in this thread where people had said that's what they'd do to "get back" at the restaurant.
Can anyone else confirm this? Anyone had to or know someone who had to cover a customer's tab?
yes. several of my coworkers and former coworkers have had punk ass kids skip out on the tab. some ended up going home after their shift with less money in their pockets than they went in with. depends on the restaurant really, and what restaurant policies the manager waives or enforces.
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Tips seem like a good idea from the view of the manager. Reduce worker pay + lower menu prices then compensate by charging tip. That way you can just have a hidden +15% cost at the end and in turn not have to actually list that +15% as addition food cost.
Slick business move imo.
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Bad decision by the pub. Now nobody's gonna go there.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
should change the term imo lol.
or acutally would be better to raise waiter's wages
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it's a huge scam by management, and it should be considered false advertisement or fraud whatever the legal term would be. They make the customer pay a portion of the waiters wage separate to the so called bill and call it gratuity all the while it is not gratuity it is in fact a legal part of the bill
they advertise their food for a certain value then place a % of their employee's wage on top of the whole bill after the fact, false advertisement imo.
and might i add that management sometimes keeps whatever surplus is received from an exceptionally busy night and pays waiters a fixed "tip" at the end of the week or night, or establishes a cap. it's total bullshit.
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On November 20 2009 12:49 Fontong wrote:
Tips seem like a good idea from the view of the manager. Reduce worker pay + lower menu prices then compensate by charging tip. That way you can just have a hidden +15% cost at the end and in turn not have to actually list that +15% as addition food cost.
Slick business move imo.
slick business move that should be considered false advertisement, and punishable by law imo
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The biggest victim in this ordeal will most likely be the pub itself who will lose customers who, like me, think this is bullshit.
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I think it is relevant that the "bartender in charge" was making the decisions. Bartenders are tipped associates as well and "bartenders in charge" are typically in the position because of their experience, familiarity with the dining room, and established trust with the owner/managers, not for their keen business sense. Any decent owner or manager would allowed the customer to leave without tipping, and then given the server some sort of kick back(unless the server was really at fault, and not for example the kitchen for taking to long).
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On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
often the server ends up being the person having to cover the tab... it's a pretty messed up thing to do. ]Can anyone else confirm this? Anyone had to or know someone who had to cover a customer's tab?
It is up to the restaurant. It usually isn't common unless the server really jacked up the experience, but it certainly happens.
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at least they left with their lives.... check out this story. old, but just wow.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,434885,00.htmlWaiters have allegedly beaten an Australian tourist to death for being "arrogant" while ordering a beer in an Indian restaurant. John Kelly, 65, is reported to have died of internal injuries sustained when he was beaten by staff at the Club City Restaurant in the Indian resort region of Goa yesterday. The incident follows the murder of 15-year-old British tourist Scarlett Keeling, who was allegedly raped and left for dead by two local men in Goa in February. The Times of India and local reports said Mr Kelly's beating followed an altercation in which he displayed an "arrogant attitude". He reportedly arrived in Goa on September 29 and entered the bar at 8am local time on Wednesday. Some reports said security staff at the bar joined in the bashing. Others said Mr Kelly was set upon by "a group" of waiters, who also tore up his clothes. Deputy Superintendent Gundu Naik said Mr Kelly died 10 hours after being attacked while drinking a beer in the bar at Calangute, about 10km from the state capital, Panaji. "He died 10 hours after the assault, while being treated at Goa Medical College and Hospital here,'' Superintendent Naik was quoted as saying. "He entered into an argument with the waiter which resulted in the altercation. The deceased was pushed down and assaulted.'' No further details were released but Superintendent Bosco George said two waiters and a security guard at the premises had been detained, but not arrested, in connection with the incident. The Times of India quoted another local police officer as saying that the incident was being treated as murder.
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On November 20 2009 12:21 Ludrik wrote:
Glad I live in Australia. The only time I've ever tipped is when there's been a tip jar and I've had a lot of loose change in my pocket. IMO restaurants should pay their employees a decent salary and not expect tips. If the waiters do a shit job it shouldn't be up to the customer to feel obligated to pay them. The boss should just give them a warning or fire them.
hahahahah the aussie way.
And yeah 2.13 USD an hour :| holy shit, no wonder tipping is serious there. I only ever really grasped the concept of tipping when I watched movies like reservoir dogs (good movie, ta for link I loved that scene), and some Seinfeld episodes.
I guess it's a psychological perception in cheapness of food. Just like how car salesmen set car prices and shit to 19999 instead of "20 000" the consumer perceives that he is paying less money. Likewise having a coffee and a donut for like $2 USD + a tip or whatever, vs an Australian coffee+donut (like $7? fucking bullshit).
Did you know a cup of tea at university costs $3.20 at my university? A fucking small tiny LIPTON or DILMAH tea bag $3.20. This was before I had access to the faculties kitchen. But still when i'm desperate for a cup of tea and I have no where else to go, i have to fork up $3.20 for a measly cup of tea.
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EPT
