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On November 20 2009 09:57 Jonoman92 wrote:
It's 15%-20%, let's not be cheap now, us servers gotta make a living too.
Actually, I've seen that specific tip range appear on many restaurant pamphlets and advertisements. "Tip should be 15-20% of total bill AFTER taxes".
(1) 15% seems good (probably more for people dining alone). I agree that if a customer is really pleased, they could pay 20%, but hinting that 15% is the minimum and 20% is still "average", doesn't seem right.
(2) After taxes? I think that is overboard. The applied taxes go to the government, so why should the tip be 15-20% of cost of food + taxes? You don't think about it - you just look at the bold print on your receipt, but it's good to think about it.
I do look at the tax included total and pay a cut of that as the tip, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem justified.
I think the way it works in many parts of NA, is that you expect to get friendly service if you:
A) Are a regular customer
B) Regularly tip more than 15%
(3) Also, don't many people still pay tip (15% or reduced - 10%), for mediocre to poor service? In order to save face? (pride?)
Some leave a lower tip rather than no tip at all, even if they're not satisfied.
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Of the top of my head the best reason I can think of to not be stingy with tips ifs that while this is generally an uncommon expense for you, it's your waiter's livelyhood.
But god damn do poor waiters annoy me.
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With every passing day, my faith in humanity seems to gradually decline...
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Seeing as it was a mandatory gratuity, it isn't really a gratuity. It's just an extension of the bill, a hidden cost, if you will. Incredibly sleazy practice by the institution, but the customers should be obliged to pay it if it's made clear on the menu that the charge applies. I would simply never eat at an establishment that charges a mandatory gratuity in the first place. They could accomplish the exact same goal by raising the prices of their food and drink and giving the employees a "commission" of sorts on food served. "Mandatory gratuities" is an oxymoron and it's used purely as a manipulative device: firstly to make the meal appear cheaper than it actually is, and secondly to convince customers that do notice the hidden charges that they are morally sound as it is all going to staff, not owners. It defeats the entire notion of a tip as a device to encourage quality service and is simply bullshit.
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There are two sides to this story.
From the waiter/waitress's point of view, they are paid below minimum wage, so much of their pay is from tips. Having mandatory tips would help ensure that nobody tries to weasel out of tipping.
On the flip side - it almost makes the waiter/waitress feel like they have an entitlement to that 15+% tip. That defeats the whole point of a "gratuity", doesn't it? Isn't a gratuity supposed to be a "thank you" for the service?
IMO, tips should be a reflection of the service, regardless of how many people are at the table. I have been at a table where the service was shitty. Guess what - my tip was a reflection of the service.
Overall though, I do tip about 20% on average. Some waiters/waitresses definitely deserved the higher tips I've given.
And this extends to other things. If I'm at a bar, or I'm taking a taxi, etc., I tip there too. If they are good.
Tips aren't solely money however. There are other ways of showing gratitude. For instance, last week I was at a bar, it was pretty crowded, but all night this one bartender was doing a really good job. Near the end of the night, I'm still putting down shots, and I get a round of cointreau for me and a few friends. The bartender tells me that she's never tried it, so I bought an extra shot, and gave it to her. I mean, she was getting drinks drinks for us in less than 2 minutes, and the bar was definitely packed, so she was definitely giving us some preferential treatment. It seemed like a good way to show some appreciation for that. That and the tipping we did.
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What I don't get is why when you serve more people, tips become mandatory? From what I've gathered, in America, tips are part of their normal wages?
Here in new zealand, waiters/watiress's wages are paid by the employer, so tips are like a bonus, a source of motivation. And since their wages are paid by the employer, more people means more profits for the shop, so in theory tips become obsolete, however people tend to pay tips in large group anyway, especially when received good service.
And you'd think its easyier for the waiters/waitress to service people in groups instead of lots of small tables, because you could take more orders/requests at a time, serve more people, and take away empty plates while your at it. It is less professional in customer's eye to go serve other tables while you just finished taking their orders/requests.
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If it's part of the bill, they have to pay, but arresting them? Isn't that a bit too much? -_-
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On November 20 2009 07:26 rinoh wrote:
The business just screwed itself over by ruining their image and losing many potential customers over a 16 dollar tip. Good job!
First post says it all.
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But what's the advantage of small salary + big tips over medium salary + medium tips?
The very existence of this thread and endless similar others on various forums proves that "mandatory tipping" it's a pain both to waiters and customers. In countries where tipping is optional there isn't any rage ever because even if some dicks decide to not tip at all despite an excellent service, or because good/bad weather or whatever brought less customers to the restaurant and less tipping opportunities, the waiters still have a decent salary to rely on. And I never heard that being a waiter in optional-tipping countries was worse. But maybe it actually is? I don't know. If someone worked as a waiter in different countries with both systems it'd be interesting to hear about it.
About the waiters decreasing their quality of service because of a smaller reliance on tipping, I also have my doubts. I've been in really a lot of countries and I've not seen any particular trend pointing "tipping countries" as the ones with the best service. Actually I'd even say it's the opposite - from what I've seen, the countries with the best QoS are those with an old tradition of courtesy/hospitality, and charging someone for this service would just be rude.
Bleh, I don't think this debate is going anywhere anyway. It's like the health care thread. Some people (like me) think that all jobs should grant a minimum wage and everyone should get minimum healthcare because it's really fucking difficult to try to move forward in life and feel like you can take care of a family etc if you don't even know how much your job will get you this month and how well you or your children will be treated if they get ill. Some others, mostly americans because it's so deeply ingrained in their culture, just don't care and think that having nothing for granted motivates people to work their ass off for it instead of relying on society and other richer taxpayers. I don't even blame them because I can completely see where they come from and some of their arguments even make sense.
Anyway let's not derail the thread to another socialism debate etc.
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On November 20 2009 10:42 TwilightStar wrote:
With every passing day, my faith in humanity seems to gradually decline...
this.
this obliGRATUITY is just terrible. and the first post is right.
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wasn't tipping something optional?
What the fuck happened to the world. 
I was sleeping, and then I woke up to this shit.
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Ive done this before, service was aweful. we asked for waters got them around 10 minutes later, aswell as jsut plain bad servers. We got stopped at the door argued for ten minutes, the manager would not see us, which is jsut really unprofessional. All round not worth the extra 15% they added.
we ended up paying jsut to avoid getting the police involved.
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I can't believe the story is real. It is simply too absurd.
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If its mandatory they have to pay it.
I dont agree that it should be called a tip/gratuity if its mandatory though.
I also agree that the restaurant just screwed themselves out of business by doing this.
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Back to the first question - no I do not believe they should have been arrested (if the article is to be believed).
The following is off-topic again, but let's find common ground.
Poll: What should be the common tip %?
(Vote): 15%
(Vote): 20%
(Vote): Other
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What kind of tip is this? Not one of those mandatory gratuity right? I'd say they should just combine the service fee and the food cost.
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something i don't think anyone has brought up yet is the fact that the wait staff has to tip other people out at the end of the night too.
anywhere tipping is required - bars, restaurants, clubs, etc., the wait staff or bartenders tip out 3 - 5 % of their total sales. for example if a server were to be stiffed on a $100 tab, he would have paid $3 to serve that table. 1% goes to the expo, 1% to the bussers, and 1% to the bartender. and if that server lives in a state where $2.13/hr in wages is all that's required for restaurants to pay their servers, you can see that getting stiffed really hurts.
hell yes that couple should have been arrested. plain and simple they didn't pay their bill. was it a good idea for the pub to call the cops on them? no. i agree with what most people said here - it's bad publicity, and it should have been settled some other way. but just deciding that they're not going to pay what they're required to is stupid. they got what was coming to them.
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole.
and dining and dashing? are you kidding?! often the server ends up being the person having to cover the tab... it's a pretty messed up thing to do.
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Mandatory 15%? WOW. Its incredible how little US waiters are paid - $2.13US/hour? God. When I was in retail, I was getting $22AUD/hour (roughly 20USD currently, but really, probably about 16USD back when it was happening). I can see why you would need such a huge tip.
I do tip here, but if has to be good service. Good service, 5% tip, great service 10% tip. Simple. Now you guys are making me feel like a tight arse! 
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On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote:
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole.
I wonder how many people will tip more when mandatory gratuity comes into play, doesn't that make you feel that the mandatory gratuity already covers the excellent service they provide? Resulting in the loss for the waiters/waitress.
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Hong Kong1313 Posts
the question that should be asked is not "should we pay tips or not?" but rather "why the fuck did the police arrest them? or get involved at all?"
i mean, surely even as a officer they would have had the experience of getting bad service in a restaurant and not wanting to tip. By definition of "gratuity", it isn't theft. And surely there are more important things going on that concerns the police.
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EPT
