"Nobody, nobody wants to be forced to pay a tip or be arrested for terrible service," Leslie Pope said when her happy hour ended in handcuffs.
Pope and John Wagner were hauled away by police and charged with theft for not paying the mandatory 18 percent gratuity totaling $16 after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pa. with six friends.
Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.
“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said.
After the $73 bill came, the group paid for food, drinks, and tax but refused to pay the tip. After explaining the bad service to the bartender in charge, Pope claimed he took their money and called police. The couple was handcuffed and placed in the back of a police car.
“I understand that, you know, we didn’t pay the gratuity, but it was a gratuity, it wasn’t something that was required,” said Wagner.
The owner admitted that the group waited unusually long for their food, but said the pub was extremely busy that night. He said managers offered to comp the food, a claim the couple denies ever happened.
“Obviously we would have liked for the patron and the establishment to have worked this out without getting the police involved,” said Deputy Police Commissioner Stuart Bedics.
Police charged them with theft since the gratuity was part of the actual bill. However, it is doubtful that the charges will hold up in front of a judge. The couple is scheduled to appear in court next month.
Poll: Should they be arrested for not leaving tip? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Has this ever happened to you? I remember a couple of places that I didn't leave tip for because of bad service but never thought I would end up in the back of a cop car. How would u have handle it? If I knew the cop was involve, I would just pay them the money and save my time.
On November 20 2009 07:26 rinoh wrote: The business just screwed itself over by ruining their image and losing many potential customers over a 16 dollar tip. Good job!
Thats what I thought too. Imagine the embarrassment of getting cuff for not paying tip.
It was gratuity though so I think they have to pay for it since they had over 6 people. But if it was just two people, the situation wouldn't of happened.
..... Why the fuck do you still call it "gratuity" if it's something you are legally obligated to pay?
Main Entry: gra·tu·ity Pronunciation: \grə-ˈtü-ə-tē, -ˈtyü-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural gra·tu·ities Date: 1540 : something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip
I think if it is a "mandatory gratuity" it is like saying that you didn't get all 15$ of your 15$ steak and only paying 10$, or if you decide that you pay enough taxes already and not paying the sales tax.
Yes it sucks that that got crap service, but the bill is the bill.
On November 20 2009 07:31 Trezeguet23 wrote: I think if it is a "mandatory gratuity" it is like saying that you didn't get all 15$ of your 15$ steak and only paying 10$, or if you decide that you pay enough taxes already and not paying the sales tax.
Yes it sucks that that got crap service, but the bill is the bill.
exactly, i voted no before reading the article but lots of restaurants have mandatory gratuities for big parties (this was a group of 8) and not paying it is theft.
I usually tip even though the service isn't that great. Seing as gratuity is a sign of gratitude, it should be self explanatory that the waiters/waitresses have to at least partly earn it. They can't just expect to get a tip no matter what level of service they offer their clients. Calling the police afterwards is even more incredible IMO.
I've never experienced a restaurant where the tip was added unless it clearly said "suggested price = ...". I know a lot of waiters/waiteresses work for tip only, or very low wage+tips, but whenever that is the case, they should just have more incentive to offer good service and hospitality.
Serving a large group like that is a horrible pain in the ass for the entire restaurant, not just the waiter. They had a group of what, eight? That's why most restaurants add in gratuity automatically into the check for larger groups (I think usually ones larger than six). This is usually to guarantee that patrons won't just go cheap on them and put in only like a 10% tip for the sake of cutting the cost on an inevitably larger bill.
The other thing is that in a lot of states, the tips that waiters make are legal and taxable income. They have to be reported, and some states even allow restaurants to pay waiters below minimum wage due to tips. Tips are pretty serious business, lol.
They were arrested on a stupid technicality, and I really don't think anything is going to happen to them other than a lot of inconviences.
idk why no one mention this but. if a waitress or waiter say gets paid 2.15 an hour. and doesnt make the normal min wage like 7.25 an hour with their tips added the restraunt is obligated to pay them what they didnt make in tips. so no matter what they make min wage like normal ppl they just have the ability to make more with generous tips.
so really waiters dont get paid less then anyone else. infact they have the ability to make alot more.
some times i resent this because out of all the complaining waiters make much more then cooks alot of the time.
On November 20 2009 07:29 FrozenArbiter wrote: ..... Why the fuck do you still call it "gratuity" if it's something you are legally obligated to pay?
Main Entry: gra·tu·ity Pronunciation: \grə-ˈtü-ə-tē, -ˈtyü-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural gra·tu·ities Date: 1540 : something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip
Retarded.
Yeah, it's a contradiction in terms, and the main problem here. The ambiguity in the terminology is probably what led the couple to believe they were simply denying a tip for poor service, when in actuality they were refusing to pay a built-in service fee. Both parties were at fault here, but the involvement of the police is pretty ludicrous.
Then again, if the cops weren't called, we'd never know about it, and we wouldn't have thrilling forum topics like this!
Whether it's right or wrong, mandatory gratuity is a very common practice and is clearly printed on the menus before you order anything. This isn't being arrested for not tipping. It's not paying your bill. The article and op are misleading.
I understand that waiters and waitresses need tips in order to make enough money to live on but if you're going to give shitty service as they described then fuck no you're not getting a tip.
I laughed at the part where they claimed to have offered the couple a refund. Total bullshit.
EDIT: I heard once in some European countries the tip is already figured into the bill, this is quite ridiculous.
That is ridiculous. From a business standpoint, involving the police is retarded and I really hope their restaurant suffers some losses because of this. The people should never be forced to pay a tip. I typically pay it, maybe paying less if service is less, but if someone chooses to skip the tip because of shitty service they should not end up in the back of a police car.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
No restauraunt I have been to in Europe has a tip already figured into the bill - maybe in dodgier ones, but not anywhere nice.
In Australia, where tipping just isn't done (a study lsat year showed something like 3% of Australians tip), the reason boils down to the waiters getting paid quite well - they don't need the tips to survive.
The same isn't true in the US, so regardless of the service, I feel you have to tip - in 99% of cases it isn't the fault of the waiter if the service is slow, its usually the floor manager, other customers or kitchen staff. So cut the poor guys/girls some slack.
Nonetheless, the notion of a 'mandatory gratuity' is quite laughable.
They shouldn't be allowed to call it gratuity, it's almost like false advertising. If it was "service charge" people would feel worse about having to pay it but then it would be obvious it's a fee.
Mandatory gratuity is an oxymoron of a term if I've ever heard one. I always tip because I've never gotten terrible service, but I always thought of the tip as motivation for the place to treat you well.
If you're legally required to 'tip' at a place, don't call it a tip, just add it to the base price. It's obviously nothing resembling a 'gratuity' or a 'tip'.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
Mandatory gratuities are all over the place, it's not the restaurant's fault that the customers are too dumb to understand the word "mandatory".
The name of the thread should be "group arrested for not paying bill" since it was a normal part of the bill for large groups.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
Mandatory gratuities are all over the place, it's not the restaurant's fault that the customers are too dumb to understand the word "mandatory".
The name of the thread should be "group arrested for not paying bill" since it was a normal part of the bill for large groups.
Or the restaurant fault for not understand the word gratuties.
I hate places that include the tip in the actual bill. It seems to completely destroy the idea of tipping. This arrest was completely unjustified and I am confident it won't hold up in court.
You do have to play grautuity, but wtf. I would just organize a giant dine and dash to repay them for being such assholes as to have to police come over $15. This kind of shit is why policemen fucking suck. If i had shown up I would have been like he stole $15?!?!? Seriously, don't waste our time...
"Police charged them with theft since the gratuity was part of the actual bill." so if they know they have to pay, they should have payed it just. imo they can talk with the manager about the shitty service and normaly he will offer them to pay only for a part of the bill. i was trainee in an hotel and i can just say: people want best service, most expensive food (especially when they go out with friends or people they know) and pay as less as possible. nobody of us where there, so we cant really judge. when things like this happened i just gave the people something for free (coke/coffee or something) and they were just happy or i just talked with them and explained them that it will take some minutes more and it was ok. i think both sides had a fault of 50% in that situation.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
Mandatory gratuities are all over the place, it's not the restaurant's fault that the customers are too dumb to understand the word "mandatory".
The name of the thread should be "group arrested for not paying bill" since it was a normal part of the bill for large groups.
Or the restaurant fault for not understand the word gratuties.
I don't think you understand. It's VERY COMMON for large groups to be charged a mandatory gratuity. The restaurant apparently needed the cops to deal with unruly customers.
You can't just pay for part of the bill and refuse to pay the rest.
sounds like minimum wages should increase so tips aren't mandatory nor necessary for a waiter or waitress and then it can actually be a tip rather than part of the paycheck.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
Mandatory gratuities are all over the place, it's not the restaurant's fault that the customers are too dumb to understand the word "mandatory".
The name of the thread should be "group arrested for not paying bill" since it was a normal part of the bill for large groups.
Or the restaurant fault for not understand the word gratuties.
I don't think you understand. It's VERY COMMON for large groups to be charged a mandatory gratuity. The restaurant apparently needed the cops to deal with unruly customers.
You can't just pay for part of the bill and refuse to pay the rest.
how about make the bill clear with 1 number instead of this bullshit trickery?
americans are really stupid, do they always wipe their ass through the legs?
Good restaurants will know when customers are upset and apologize and comp something on the bill such as gratuity and hope the customers will come back next time. The pub just royally fucked itself for making such a bad call. Actually, the manager of the pub royally fucked him/herself. The owner of the pub will see this shit in the news and fire their ass. Send an apology letter and hope to god that business will return to normal.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
Mandatory gratuities are all over the place, it's not the restaurant's fault that the customers are too dumb to understand the word "mandatory".
The name of the thread should be "group arrested for not paying bill" since it was a normal part of the bill for large groups.
Or the restaurant fault for not understand the word gratuties.
I don't think you understand. It's VERY COMMON for large groups to be charged a mandatory gratuity. The restaurant apparently needed the cops to deal with unruly customers.
You can't just pay for part of the bill and refuse to pay the rest.
how about make the bill clear with 1 number instead of this bullshit trickery?
americans are really stupid, do they always wipe their ass through the legs?
"I don't like the service, so I'm not going to pay the mandatory gratuity charge"
"I don't like the state government, so I'm not going to pay the sales tax"
"I didn't like the steak, I'm just going to pay for the drinks"
what a dick move. there might be automatic gratuity figured in for larger groups (like groups of 6), but calling the cops is fucking ridiculous. what kind of rep does this pub want.
This situation is crazy. I mean both sides are at fault here really; there should be no way the police should have to be involved, especially charges pressed over 16$. It is a very common, if not silly, practice in the US to include a mandatory gratuity for large groups. My real problem with that practice is it doesn't really provide an incentive for good service. That aside, it's only 16 dollars just pay it ffs. Even if you are unhappy with the service it is a part of the bill. You have every right to never come to the place again, tell all your friends what a dump it is, you don't have a right to just say "I'm not going to pay a part of this bill." The restaraunt is also at fault ... for one giving the bad service. Number 2 calling the police, if the manager in charge wasn't able to resolve the situation with the customers, he shouldn't be in charge.
I remember one time at IHOP my brother put the tip under a cup or something so the waiter didn't see it at first. She ran after us to our car and begged us to tell her why she didn't get a tip. We were like O_O?
Tips are supposed to be for good service. At some point, North American businessmen realized that they could just pay their workers less by creating the impression that tips are required. Now waiters/waitresses expect a tip regardless of how crappy their service is, and it completely negates the point of the tip. How can a tip encourage good service if it's mandatory?
On November 20 2009 08:29 Zzoram wrote: Tips are supposed to be for good service. At some point, North American businessmen realized that they could just pay their workers less by creating the impression that tips are required. Now waiters/waitresses expect a tip regardless of how crappy their service is, and it completely negates the point of the tip. How can a tip encourage good service if it's mandatory?
you usually get to choose between a 15% and 20% tip, and most managers are nice enough to talk to you instead of calling the cops
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
Mandatory gratuities are all over the place, it's not the restaurant's fault that the customers are too dumb to understand the word "mandatory".
The name of the thread should be "group arrested for not paying bill" since it was a normal part of the bill for large groups.
Or the restaurant fault for not understand the word gratuties.
I don't think you understand. It's VERY COMMON for large groups to be charged a mandatory gratuity. The restaurant apparently needed the cops to deal with unruly customers.
You can't just pay for part of the bill and refuse to pay the rest.
how about make the bill clear with 1 number instead of this bullshit trickery?
americans are really stupid, do they always wipe their ass through the legs?
"I don't like the service, so I'm not going to pay the mandatory gratuity charge"
"I don't like the state government, so I'm not going to pay the sales tax"
"I didn't like the steak, I'm just going to pay for the drinks"
actually those quotes you make are the exact opposite i said. no matter if you like the service the tax or the steak you pay for all with 1 number on your bill. if you were pleased by the service you give a little bit extra a gratuite which stands up to its meaning.
On November 20 2009 08:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: sounds like minimum wages should increase so tips aren't mandatory nor necessary for a waiter or waitress and then it can actually be a tip rather than part of the paycheck.
Waiters usually make below minimum wage hourly in the states before tips are factored in.
This is why tipping sucks. I don't have a problem with the principle of voluntarily paying a little extra if the waiter makes an effort above and beyond what they're already getting paid to do by the pub. But just paying a some of their wages directly out of convention rather than with any relation to their effort is absurd.
If I'm in Burger King and get decent service (ie beyond what they're required to do) then I'd happily tip them because I know they get paid shit to do shit. However if I'm in a decent restaurant and I get the same level of service I tipped the Burger King employee to do I'd probably not tip because they're already getting paid to provide me all the basic stuff, they'll have to work harder to impress me.
The root of the problem is that restaurant owners have realised they don't actually need to pay their employees, the worse they pay them, the greater the incentive to tip. I once had a manager of a restaurant bitch at me because I left 10% rather than the recommended 15% they'd kindly suggested they deserved on my bill. Apparently his staff were really underpaid and overworked. He seemed confused when I informed him that as the manager perhaps he ought to pay them more and maybe hire a few more so they don't have to work as hard and that it wasn't my job to charitably cover for his own greed.
It's a good idea in principle but in practice it sucks.
In this particular case I agree with the couple and the restaurant are really stupid for doing something this public.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
this is pretty common where i live.
the customers were more retarded for choosing to get arrested instead of paying $16 for the service.
and even if it's bad service it requires a lot of effort to serve 8 people
they felt like they werent being served. So if they were in groups of 4 and asked to be seated close to each other than they can skip out on the tip because their party is less than 6?
i have no idea how restaurants deal with people gaming the system like that.
but yeah there are mandatory gratuities all over the place, read the fine print.
Who's really gaming the system here? MANDATORY gratuties.
Mandatory gratuities are all over the place, it's not the restaurant's fault that the customers are too dumb to understand the word "mandatory".
The name of the thread should be "group arrested for not paying bill" since it was a normal part of the bill for large groups.
Or the restaurant fault for not understand the word gratuties.
I don't think you understand. It's VERY COMMON for large groups to be charged a mandatory gratuity. The restaurant apparently needed the cops to deal with unruly customers.
You can't just pay for part of the bill and refuse to pay the rest.
how about make the bill clear with 1 number instead of this bullshit trickery?
americans are really stupid, do they always wipe their ass through the legs?
"I don't like the service, so I'm not going to pay the mandatory gratuity charge"
"I don't like the state government, so I'm not going to pay the sales tax"
"I didn't like the steak, I'm just going to pay for the drinks"
I don't like the service, so I am going to pay the markup on the food meant to cover the costs of the service and then be forced to "voluntarily" pay extra because I am thankful for their effort.
No, you shouldn't be arrested for not leaving a tip, but that wasn't what happened here.
There was a mandatory gratuity for larger parties dining in and the couple just happened to be in a large enough party for it to be required. Mandatory gratuities are added to account for something called DIFFUSION OF RESPONSIBILITY which you can look up if you don't know what it is. This couple didn't pay their bill and got burned.
On November 20 2009 08:17 Liquid`Drone wrote: sounds like minimum wages should increase so tips aren't mandatory nor necessary for a waiter or waitress and then it can actually be a tip rather than part of the paycheck.
Waiters usually make below minimum wage hourly in the states before tips are factored in.
UNLESS they make less than hourly with tips, then they have to be paid minimum. Seems fair to me. Shit service = shit pay, good service = great pay.
i once ate at a fancy seafood restaurant and at the end of it we gave them about 15% tip. as we were walking out they stopped us and were like "oh, you have to pay AT LEAST 22% tip!" and we're like uhh... we payed the extra money since we didn't want to get into an argument at the time. but seriously, its messed up
On November 20 2009 07:29 FrozenArbiter wrote: ..... Why the fuck do you still call it "gratuity" if it's something you are legally obligated to pay?
Main Entry: gra·tu·ity Pronunciation: \grə-ˈtü-ə-tē, -ˈtyü-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural gra·tu·ities Date: 1540 : something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip
Oh, and if a gratuity is mandated, I almost always leave little-no tip. Partly out of principle, and partly because there's no reason for a mandatory gratuity. What's the difference between a 6-table and 3 couples?
On November 20 2009 08:47 TimmyMac wrote: Oh, and if a gratuity is mandated, I almost always leave little-no tip. Partly out of principle, and partly because there's no reason for a mandatory gratuity. What's the difference between a 6-table and 3 couples?
Out of "principle"? I'm curious...what is this principle?
On November 20 2009 08:47 TimmyMac wrote: Oh, and if a gratuity is mandated, I almost always leave little-no tip. Partly out of principle, and partly because there's no reason for a mandatory gratuity. What's the difference between a 6-table and 3 couples?
Out of "principle"? I'm curious...what is this principle?
On November 20 2009 08:47 TimmyMac wrote: Oh, and if a gratuity is mandated, I almost always leave little-no tip. Partly out of principle, and partly because there's no reason for a mandatory gratuity. What's the difference between a 6-table and 3 couples?
Out of "principle"? I'm curious...what is this principle?
That forcing me to pay a 'gratuity' is bullshit. Clearly.
Actually, any time a restaurant says anything about tipping anywhere on the menu/bill/anywhere, I almost automatically tip less. Probably still a fair amount, but definitely less. People have gotten far too self-entitled about these things.
Actually, I voted yes because it says it is a mandatory tip.
Most restaurants tips aren't mandatory, but since this one was all I can say is they they just shouldn't go back. If the tip isn't mandatory I wouldn't tip if the service was as bad as they claim.
EDIT: Don't get me wrong; I don't think any restaurant should have a mandatory tip, but in the bizarre case where there is one, I wouldn't refuse if I was going to be arrested.
Need more anti-americanism post with no content in here. =\
The facts of the matter are: mandatory gratuity on parties larger than x are common here, that was the case at this restaurant(i'm 99% sure it was printed on the menu), and they are obviously legally responsible for their bill.
However, it does give the restaurant bad press, and any competent manager should offer to pick up the bill, or at least drop the gratuity if the customers explained the situation.
So basically, the establishment is 100% correct here from a legal standpoint.
On November 20 2009 08:47 TimmyMac wrote: Oh, and if a gratuity is mandated, I almost always leave little-no tip. Partly out of principle, and partly because there's no reason for a mandatory gratuity. What's the difference between a 6-table and 3 couples?
Do you know if the mandatory gratuity still goes directly to the waiters?
Oh this is perfect payback against that pub, now that EVERYONE fucking knows about it and its poor service+ shitty management. You bet ur ass that next time i eat anywhere close to that area, im making sure its not that eatery, and telling all my friends not to go there. Imagine if they go bust, especially in this economy, I would laugh my ass off.
On November 20 2009 09:02 meeple wrote: I knew tipping was expected in American culture, but I didn't know that you could be arrested for skipping out on a tip.
Again how is it not clear, they were skipping out on part of their bill, because the restaurant charges an additional 18% on parties over 6. Yeah, its bullshit that they call it a gratuity, but thats how it works
On November 20 2009 08:47 TimmyMac wrote: Oh, and if a gratuity is mandated, I almost always leave little-no tip. Partly out of principle, and partly because there's no reason for a mandatory gratuity. What's the difference between a 6-table and 3 couples?
Do you know if the mandatory gratuity still goes directly to the waiters?
It may be called a gratuity, but it's part of the bill. I think involving the police was stupid, however, usually menus or something will say that they charge an extra percentage with parties of a certain number. I think they should have paid the whole thing.
During a TL dinner at Blizzcon, we had a party of about 20. They didn't have a big enough table to seat us, so they just gave us 4 tables in a line that were close enough together. However, they billed us by table, and I think that since they were billing us by table, we should have been exempt from the 15% gratuity, but we weren't. It was weird though, they had two extra charges on the bill, for over an extra 25% on the bill, in "gratuity". We took it as a mandatory tip, paid the bill, and left nothing extra.
On November 20 2009 09:05 Pawsom wrote: Need more anti-americanism post with no content in here. =\
The facts of the matter are: mandatory gratuity on parties larger than x are common here, that was the case at this restaurant(i'm 99% sure it was printed on the menu), and they are obviously legally responsible for their bill.
However, it does give the restaurant bad press, and any competent manager should offer to pick up the bill, or at least drop the gratuity if the customers explained the situation.
So basically, the establishment is 100% correct here from a legal standpoint.
Funny I was a server for like 11 months to a year and we have that same little shit on our menus charged 20% for parties 8 or more. But if a group of people paid us less we didn't call the cops nor did we run after them. We accepted it and just moved on trying harder.
No gratuities aren't part of the bill. Thats like saying "Hey this guy's meal is on your tab. I mean hey, its a bill man you gotta pay or we're calling the cops." I'd gladly tell them to call the cops because A)Im not paying for shit that I didn't intend too(like paying for shitty service.) and B)There is no law that states I have to pay a mandatory gratuity.
On November 20 2009 09:05 Pawsom wrote: Need more anti-americanism post with no content in here. =\
The facts of the matter are: mandatory gratuity on parties larger than x are common here, that was the case at this restaurant(i'm 99% sure it was printed on the menu), and they are obviously legally responsible for their bill.
However, it does give the restaurant bad press, and any competent manager should offer to pick up the bill, or at least drop the gratuity if the customers explained the situation.
So basically, the establishment is 100% correct here from a legal standpoint.
Another thing I hate about America: the legalization of assholish practices, and the excuse every idiot has to be an asshole because "there's no law saying you can't".
On November 20 2009 07:29 FrozenArbiter wrote: ..... Why the fuck do you still call it "gratuity" if it's something you are legally obligated to pay?
Main Entry: gra·tu·ity Pronunciation: \grə-ˈtü-ə-tē, -ˈtyü-\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural gra·tu·ities Date: 1540 : something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service; especially : tip
Retarded.
Pretty much sums up my stance on this issue. Change the terminology and make it mandatory or whatever but don't call the police on something like that...
Who puts the tip on the bill? Is the restaurant claiming that it's owed to them as part of the price of the meal even though it's written on the bill as "gratuity"? This seems like the touchiest part of the issue. It's not gone into in any detail in the article. It's simply presented as a question, like the pole in this thread, of "should these people be forced to pay a tip?" which is erroneous. I don't care how obvious the answer is in your mind but the question is not that simple.
In America waiters/servers are except from the minimum wage. I worked at a Mexican Restaurant this past summer (and may return there over winter break soon) and the base pay we received form the restaurants was a measly $2.13 USD per hour. That is less than 1/3 the minimum wage. But with tips I generally made $8-$16 an hour (it greatly varied depending on how busy/how lucky you get with tables, and to a lesser degree how good a waiter you are.)
edit: The problem here was probably with the communication between the patrons and the managers of the restaurant I would think. I'm sure the managers wouldn't have wanted to call the police and would have done somethign to resolve the issue favorably towards the patrons. Although, it sounds like the place was booming so maybe they think they don't need to worry about a few guests who won't come back.
On November 20 2009 08:07 KissBlade wrote: I used to work as host so I have tons of sympathy for the service staff but honestly arrested is going too far. Just spit in the drink next time! =(
How would that work?
Are you saying that the server should spit in the customers drink next time in retaliation for the customer being pissed about bad service?
Or that the customer should sneak into the restaurant and somehow spit into something the server would drink?
I understand where people are coming from that gratuity shouldn't be required. However, for large parties they can take up the total time of 1 or even more servers depending on how many there are and their needs. If they are the biggest jerks ever they could leave without tipping and that would be pretty brutal for the waiter. It makes me wonder if restaurants in places where tipping isn't done have it harder since they have to spend more money paying their staff. However, I guess they may just charge slightly more for the food to make up for that so the food is just a bit more instead of adding on the general ~15% for a tip.
I mean tipping does have some point to it though because it motivates waiters to give good service to hopefully the patrons are nice and reward good service with a better tip. Rather than with no tips just having the negative possibility of having the patron complain about you.
On November 20 2009 07:54 jfazz wrote: No restauraunt I have been to in Europe has a tip already figured into the bill - maybe in dodgier ones, but not anywhere nice.
In Australia, where tipping just isn't done (a study lsat year showed something like 3% of Australians tip), the reason boils down to the waiters getting paid quite well - they don't need the tips to survive.
The same isn't true in the US, so regardless of the service, I feel you have to tip - in 99% of cases it isn't the fault of the waiter if the service is slow, its usually the floor manager, other customers or kitchen staff. So cut the poor guys/girls some slack.
Nonetheless, the notion of a 'mandatory gratuity' is quite laughable.
It depends where in Europe you go, what time of day it is, and where the restaurant is located. At lunch time in Athens it can be common to be billed for a chair, at dinner time in Budapest there is almost always going to be a 20% service charge applied to your bill, and etc. Maybe you just spent most of your time in different countries, or just got lucky? China is awesome because it is considered rude to try and pay a tip, I guess it is kind of patronizing or something.
Personally, I don't have a problem with a service charge when dining in a large group, but I almost always find the charge to be too high. I was in Seattle two weeks ago with my rowing team, and we had 20 of us all together, and they charged us a 25% service charge to eat there. Since when was 15+% a regular amount to tip? I thought 10-15% was the standard.
What I really hate is how tipping is expected for other sorts of things. When I buy a pitcher of beer at a pub from the bartender, I really hate how I am expected to tip him for twenty seconds of work. His job is to pour beer, and I am expected to give him extra money for doing his job? I don't get tipped every time I call my fruit broker.
This is just stupid. If I was arrested over not leaving a tip, the next time I go in i'm gonna be in a disguise, order a shitload of food then dine and fucking dash.
It's hard to believe but it seems that if the bill said "service charge" instead of "gratuity charge" it would satisfy half the people in this thread.
I think it's fairly obvious that the law says the couple has to pay, so why they should not be arrested as the overwhelming majority of people in this poll seems to think so is beyond me. I'm assuming their vote is more for "I thinik not tipping should not be agaisnt the law" than "They should not be arrested for breaking the law." I think the couple should have been arrested because they weren't going to get away with not paying so the only justice is the bad publicity the restaurant gets which is probably going to cost them more than they recovered.
Also, since when is tipping part of American culture? Other countries don't tip? You're probably more likely to see mandatory tipping in a bill in France than in United State just for an example.
Also, mandatory tipping is kind of lame, but if you've ever been to those websites where the servers share stories, sometimes they get hosed. For example one person told a story where she served this giant group of people that were out of church or something and they stayed for 3 hours and racked up a several hundred dollar bill and they left with a note that said "Knowing God loves you is enough of a tip" or something retarded.
Also, working at Mcdonalds is not the same service as being a server and taking orders, refilling drinks, checking on the table, delivering food, etc. Doing the latter for minimum wage would kind of suck.
I like the way we think. Ok we have 6 people who are probably going to come back here after eating here anyways. But instead lets arrest them for not paying a tip, that's good business alright. I would really like to hear about the restaurant getting in shit for pulling a stunt like that.
On November 20 2009 08:47 TimmyMac wrote: Oh, and if a gratuity is mandated, I almost always leave little-no tip. Partly out of principle, and partly because there's no reason for a mandatory gratuity. What's the difference between a 6-table and 3 couples?
Do you know if the mandatory gratuity still goes directly to the waiters?
Not my problem how the restaurant is managed.
lol it was just a question. No need to be so defensive.
How can anyone defend this system where waiters are paid like shit and completely depend on tips to make a living? That's fucking bullshit.
Edit: After thinking about it a little it's actually not surprising at all given the strong differences between americans and europeans about what should be considered "granted" and what should not. It reminds me of the health care thread.
On November 20 2009 10:02 Matoo- wrote: How can anyone defend this system where waiters are paid like shit and completely depend on tips to make a living? That's fucking bullshit.
Besides the point of should they or shouldnt they, you call the cops for fucking 16 bucks? You dont think they got better shit to do? If I was a cop (god forbid) and I get called in for that somebody is getting their kidneys punched in.
From my understanding, gratuities are added to the bill for larger groups. It's not a tip, though it does go to the waiter.
SA has a huge topic on restaurant service, browse if you're at all interested (it's actually fascinating - alcohol and cannabis usage, fucking waitresses and cussing all seem to be kitchen staples)
On November 20 2009 10:02 Matoo- wrote: How can anyone defend this system where waiters are paid like shit and completely depend on tips to make a living? That's fucking bullshit.
Because with tips accounted for waiters make a good bit to a lot more than minimum wage.
I've known waiters who would actually waive the gratuity charge on large groups when they thought they'd get more without it.
Generally if you're willing to complain to management because your service was that bad, no owner or manager would try to force the gratuity out of you. Something seems a bit off about this story.
The article says managers even offered to comp the meal. Combining that with the fact it was at a pub, I'd say the people were completely drunk and probably acting extremely obnoxious. That's the only way police would get involved.
This post based off experience working in a late night restaurant that serves 90% (if not more) drunks after 2 a.m.
On November 20 2009 09:51 omninmo wrote: land of the free...
land of the fee
I think you guys are focusing on the perspective of the customers a little too much.
It is the land of the free...a business can charge what it wants. It can put up an "XXX" charge for no reason and it is enforceable as long as the customer had reason to know that this was part of the price. It doesn't matter if it's called a 'gratuity', that's just a label.
It is free...the customer was free to purchase the service and the business was free to charge what it wanted.
On November 20 2009 09:57 Jonoman92 wrote: It's 15%-20%, let's not be cheap now, us servers gotta make a living too.
Actually, I've seen that specific tip range appear on many restaurant pamphlets and advertisements. "Tip should be 15-20% of total bill AFTER taxes".
(1) 15% seems good (probably more for people dining alone). I agree that if a customer is really pleased, they could pay 20%, but hinting that 15% is the minimum and 20% is still "average", doesn't seem right.
(2) After taxes? I think that is overboard. The applied taxes go to the government, so why should the tip be 15-20% of cost of food + taxes? You don't think about it - you just look at the bold print on your receipt, but it's good to think about it.
I do look at the tax included total and pay a cut of that as the tip, but when I think about it, it doesn't seem justified.
I think the way it works in many parts of NA, is that you expect to get friendly service if you:
A) Are a regular customer B) Regularly tip more than 15%
(3) Also, don't many people still pay tip (15% or reduced - 10%), for mediocre to poor service? In order to save face? (pride?) Some leave a lower tip rather than no tip at all, even if they're not satisfied.
Of the top of my head the best reason I can think of to not be stingy with tips ifs that while this is generally an uncommon expense for you, it's your waiter's livelyhood.
Seeing as it was a mandatory gratuity, it isn't really a gratuity. It's just an extension of the bill, a hidden cost, if you will. Incredibly sleazy practice by the institution, but the customers should be obliged to pay it if it's made clear on the menu that the charge applies. I would simply never eat at an establishment that charges a mandatory gratuity in the first place. They could accomplish the exact same goal by raising the prices of their food and drink and giving the employees a "commission" of sorts on food served. "Mandatory gratuities" is an oxymoron and it's used purely as a manipulative device: firstly to make the meal appear cheaper than it actually is, and secondly to convince customers that do notice the hidden charges that they are morally sound as it is all going to staff, not owners. It defeats the entire notion of a tip as a device to encourage quality service and is simply bullshit.
From the waiter/waitress's point of view, they are paid below minimum wage, so much of their pay is from tips. Having mandatory tips would help ensure that nobody tries to weasel out of tipping.
On the flip side - it almost makes the waiter/waitress feel like they have an entitlement to that 15+% tip. That defeats the whole point of a "gratuity", doesn't it? Isn't a gratuity supposed to be a "thank you" for the service?
IMO, tips should be a reflection of the service, regardless of how many people are at the table. I have been at a table where the service was shitty. Guess what - my tip was a reflection of the service.
Overall though, I do tip about 20% on average. Some waiters/waitresses definitely deserved the higher tips I've given.
And this extends to other things. If I'm at a bar, or I'm taking a taxi, etc., I tip there too. If they are good.
Tips aren't solely money however. There are other ways of showing gratitude. For instance, last week I was at a bar, it was pretty crowded, but all night this one bartender was doing a really good job. Near the end of the night, I'm still putting down shots, and I get a round of cointreau for me and a few friends. The bartender tells me that she's never tried it, so I bought an extra shot, and gave it to her. I mean, she was getting drinks drinks for us in less than 2 minutes, and the bar was definitely packed, so she was definitely giving us some preferential treatment. It seemed like a good way to show some appreciation for that. That and the tipping we did.
What I don't get is why when you serve more people, tips become mandatory? From what I've gathered, in America, tips are part of their normal wages?
Here in new zealand, waiters/watiress's wages are paid by the employer, so tips are like a bonus, a source of motivation. And since their wages are paid by the employer, more people means more profits for the shop, so in theory tips become obsolete, however people tend to pay tips in large group anyway, especially when received good service.
And you'd think its easyier for the waiters/waitress to service people in groups instead of lots of small tables, because you could take more orders/requests at a time, serve more people, and take away empty plates while your at it. It is less professional in customer's eye to go serve other tables while you just finished taking their orders/requests.
On November 20 2009 07:26 rinoh wrote: The business just screwed itself over by ruining their image and losing many potential customers over a 16 dollar tip. Good job!
But what's the advantage of small salary + big tips over medium salary + medium tips?
The very existence of this thread and endless similar others on various forums proves that "mandatory tipping" it's a pain both to waiters and customers. In countries where tipping is optional there isn't any rage ever because even if some dicks decide to not tip at all despite an excellent service, or because good/bad weather or whatever brought less customers to the restaurant and less tipping opportunities, the waiters still have a decent salary to rely on. And I never heard that being a waiter in optional-tipping countries was worse. But maybe it actually is? I don't know. If someone worked as a waiter in different countries with both systems it'd be interesting to hear about it.
About the waiters decreasing their quality of service because of a smaller reliance on tipping, I also have my doubts. I've been in really a lot of countries and I've not seen any particular trend pointing "tipping countries" as the ones with the best service. Actually I'd even say it's the opposite - from what I've seen, the countries with the best QoS are those with an old tradition of courtesy/hospitality, and charging someone for this service would just be rude.
Bleh, I don't think this debate is going anywhere anyway. It's like the health care thread. Some people (like me) think that all jobs should grant a minimum wage and everyone should get minimum healthcare because it's really fucking difficult to try to move forward in life and feel like you can take care of a family etc if you don't even know how much your job will get you this month and how well you or your children will be treated if they get ill. Some others, mostly americans because it's so deeply ingrained in their culture, just don't care and think that having nothing for granted motivates people to work their ass off for it instead of relying on society and other richer taxpayers. I don't even blame them because I can completely see where they come from and some of their arguments even make sense.
Anyway let's not derail the thread to another socialism debate etc.
Ive done this before, service was aweful. we asked for waters got them around 10 minutes later, aswell as jsut plain bad servers. We got stopped at the door argued for ten minutes, the manager would not see us, which is jsut really unprofessional. All round not worth the extra 15% they added.
we ended up paying jsut to avoid getting the police involved.
something i don't think anyone has brought up yet is the fact that the wait staff has to tip other people out at the end of the night too.
anywhere tipping is required - bars, restaurants, clubs, etc., the wait staff or bartenders tip out 3 - 5 % of their total sales. for example if a server were to be stiffed on a $100 tab, he would have paid $3 to serve that table. 1% goes to the expo, 1% to the bussers, and 1% to the bartender. and if that server lives in a state where $2.13/hr in wages is all that's required for restaurants to pay their servers, you can see that getting stiffed really hurts.
hell yes that couple should have been arrested. plain and simple they didn't pay their bill. was it a good idea for the pub to call the cops on them? no. i agree with what most people said here - it's bad publicity, and it should have been settled some other way. but just deciding that they're not going to pay what they're required to is stupid. they got what was coming to them.
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole.
and dining and dashing? are you kidding?! often the server ends up being the person having to cover the tab... it's a pretty messed up thing to do.
Mandatory 15%? WOW. Its incredible how little US waiters are paid - $2.13US/hour? God. When I was in retail, I was getting $22AUD/hour (roughly 20USD currently, but really, probably about 16USD back when it was happening). I can see why you would need such a huge tip.
I do tip here, but if has to be good service. Good service, 5% tip, great service 10% tip. Simple. Now you guys are making me feel like a tight arse!
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole.
I wonder how many people will tip more when mandatory gratuity comes into play, doesn't that make you feel that the mandatory gratuity already covers the excellent service they provide? Resulting in the loss for the waiters/waitress.
the question that should be asked is not "should we pay tips or not?" but rather "why the fuck did the police arrest them? or get involved at all?"
i mean, surely even as a officer they would have had the experience of getting bad service in a restaurant and not wanting to tip. By definition of "gratuity", it isn't theft. And surely there are more important things going on that concerns the police.
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole.
I wonder how many people will tip more when mandatory gratuity comes into play, doesn't that make you feel that the mandatory gratuity already covers the excellent service they provide? Resulting in the loss of waiters/waitress.
...resulting in the loss of waiters? what? i don't follow.
as a guest, you would only tip more if you feel the server deserved more than the 18% grat that's already added to the bill. i don't think that happens much though, and because 20% is considered the the standard "good tip", that's why a server would take off the automatic grat and leave it up to the guest.
On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote: hell yes that couple should have been arrested. plain and simple they didn't pay their bill. just deciding that they're not going to pay what they're required to is stupid. they got what was coming to them.
On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote: not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole.
"Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.
“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said."
I think that's a valid complaint. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if people were to leave a restaurant after waiting for 40+ mins after ordering.
On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote: hell yes that couple should have been arrested. plain and simple they didn't pay their bill. just deciding that they're not going to pay what they're required to is stupid. they got what was coming to them.
dining and dashing? are you kidding?! often the server ends up being the person having to cover the tab... it's a pretty messed up thing to do.
There's a fine line between not paying anything at all and not paying a controversial service fee (gratuity). How did you label that as dining and dashing?
On November 20 2009 12:00 citrus wrote: often the server ends up being the person having to cover the tab... it's a pretty messed up thing to do.
Can anyone else confirm this? Anyone had to or know someone who had to cover a customer's tab?
Glad I live in Australia. The only time I've ever tipped is when there's been a tip jar and I've had a lot of loose change in my pocket. IMO restaurants should pay their employees a decent salary and not expect tips. If the waiters do a shit job it shouldn't be up to the customer to feel obligated to pay them. The boss should just give them a warning or fire them.
On November 20 2009 12:14 Railxp wrote: the question that should be asked is not "should we pay tips or not?" but rather "why the fuck did the police arrest them? or get involved at all?"
i mean, surely even as a officer they would have had the experience of getting bad service in a restaurant and not wanting to tip. By definition of "gratuity", it isn't theft. And surely there are more important things going on that concerns the police.
like someone else mentioned in here, alcohol was likely involved (lol they were at a pub). a pretty likely scenario:
in the hour that they waited for their food, they had a few beers and talked amongst themselves about how terrible their server was, how they shouldn't be treated like that, where they should've gone instead, what they were going to say to the manager, etc.. by the time the manager became aware of the incident, it was probably already a very heated situation as the people were really opinionated about how they were wronged.
definitely a bad call by the management/wait staff though. calling the cops over $16 is dumb. but the guests were even more stupid for not paying their bill. if the gratuity is part of the bill, not paying it is theft. call it a service charge or whatever you want; it's still the same thing.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Code wrote: lol even if the group was larger than 8 people and the gratuity is "required" the restaurant is retarded for doing this in the first place.
"Ya, come on in to our restaurant, you may get crap service but if you dont tip you will be arrested! Enjoy!"
..its $16, enjoy the bad rep you get now lol
That is pretty much standard at restaurants in America, as far as I know, for parties over six. It's not for parties under six.
The title is misleading for sure, but it does beg the question: should you be obligated to pay "gratuity" for shitty service? I don't care if it's an "inconvenience" to the restaurant to have large parties, the only way they survive is with the customers. I work in retail, and to me, all customers are an inconvenience, but I also accept the fact that they're absolutely necessary for the company I work for to survive, so if you can't handle the inconvenience of large parties, get the fuck out of that line of work. At the same time, there are so many cheap motherfuckers out there that, because of the extra needs of large parties, I understand the mandatory gratuity.
I think the bar owner is lying about offering to comp the meals. If they offered to comp the meals, they certainly wouldn't give a damn about $16, since the meals were obviously quite a lot more than $16.
whether gratuity should be mandatory is a separate argument. i'm all for servers being paid a higher hourly wage and for tipping to be an extra incentive, but that isn't the model that exists here in the states. not tipping "out of principle" or some bs doesn't promote your idealism. it just makes you look like a cheap asshole.
I wonder how many people will tip more when mandatory gratuity comes into play, doesn't that make you feel that the mandatory gratuity already covers the excellent service they provide? Resulting in the loss of waiters/waitress.
...resulting in the loss of waiters? what? i don't follow.
as a guest, you would only tip more if you feel the server deserved more than the 18% grat that's already added to the bill. i don't think that happens much though, and because 20% is considered the the standard "good tip", that's why a server would take off the automatic grat and leave it up to the guest.
Sorry I meant "loss for the waiters", because those "mandatory gratuity" make me feel that I already tip enough for their service (even if it's excellent), but infact they wouldn't get the bonus that I think they truly deserve. Because before this thread, I didn't know waiter's wages in the states, mainly comes from these "mandatory grauity".
If your gonna make it law that you must play a tip you might as well abolish tips entirely and incorporate the tip into the price of the food. Then tips can actually be a complementary thing that you add on top if you are happy with service.
On November 20 2009 12:20 domane wrote: Pope claimed that they had to wait nearly an hour for their order and that she had to get napkins and silverware for the table herself.
“At this point I became very annoyed because I had already gone up to the bar myself to have my soda refilled because the waitress never came back,” Pope said."
I think that's a valid complaint. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if people were to leave a restaurant after waiting for 40+ mins after ordering.
no doubt that is bad service. it's likely that they had a tab of drinks going as well, which is why they wouldn't just leave. the news report only mentioned them waiting for one item (chicken fingers and fries), not everything. if they indeed were served nothing for an hour after having ordered, they probably would have left.
There's a fine line between not paying anything at all and not paying a controversial service fee (gratuity). How did you label that as dining and dashing?
the comment about dining and dashing was directed at some other posts in this thread where people had said that's what they'd do to "get back" at the restaurant.
Can anyone else confirm this? Anyone had to or know someone who had to cover a customer's tab?
yes. several of my coworkers and former coworkers have had punk ass kids skip out on the tab. some ended up going home after their shift with less money in their pockets than they went in with. depends on the restaurant really, and what restaurant policies the manager waives or enforces.
Tips seem like a good idea from the view of the manager. Reduce worker pay + lower menu prices then compensate by charging tip. That way you can just have a hidden +15% cost at the end and in turn not have to actually list that +15% as addition food cost.
it's a huge scam by management, and it should be considered false advertisement or fraud whatever the legal term would be. They make the customer pay a portion of the waiters wage separate to the so called bill and call it gratuity all the while it is not gratuity it is in fact a legal part of the bill
they advertise their food for a certain value then place a % of their employee's wage on top of the whole bill after the fact, false advertisement imo.
and might i add that management sometimes keeps whatever surplus is received from an exceptionally busy night and pays waiters a fixed "tip" at the end of the week or night, or establishes a cap. it's total bullshit.
edit
On November 20 2009 12:49 Fontong wrote: Tips seem like a good idea from the view of the manager. Reduce worker pay + lower menu prices then compensate by charging tip. That way you can just have a hidden +15% cost at the end and in turn not have to actually list that +15% as addition food cost.
Slick business move imo.
slick business move that should be considered false advertisement, and punishable by law imo
I think it is relevant that the "bartender in charge" was making the decisions. Bartenders are tipped associates as well and "bartenders in charge" are typically in the position because of their experience, familiarity with the dining room, and established trust with the owner/managers, not for their keen business sense. Any decent owner or manager would allowed the customer to leave without tipping, and then given the server some sort of kick back(unless the server was really at fault, and not for example the kitchen for taking to long).
Waiters have allegedly beaten an Australian tourist to death for being "arrogant" while ordering a beer in an Indian restaurant.
John Kelly, 65, is reported to have died of internal injuries sustained when he was beaten by staff at the Club City Restaurant in the Indian resort region of Goa yesterday.
The incident follows the murder of 15-year-old British tourist Scarlett Keeling, who was allegedly raped and left for dead by two local men in Goa in February.
The Times of India and local reports said Mr Kelly's beating followed an altercation in which he displayed an "arrogant attitude".
He reportedly arrived in Goa on September 29 and entered the bar at 8am local time on Wednesday.
Some reports said security staff at the bar joined in the bashing.
Others said Mr Kelly was set upon by "a group" of waiters, who also tore up his clothes.
Deputy Superintendent Gundu Naik said Mr Kelly died 10 hours after being attacked while drinking a beer in the bar at Calangute, about 10km from the state capital, Panaji.
"He died 10 hours after the assault, while being treated at Goa Medical College and Hospital here,'' Superintendent Naik was quoted as saying.
"He entered into an argument with the waiter which resulted in the altercation. The deceased was pushed down and assaulted.''
No further details were released but Superintendent Bosco George said two waiters and a security guard at the premises had been detained, but not arrested, in connection with the incident.
The Times of India quoted another local police officer as saying that the incident was being treated as murder.
On November 20 2009 12:21 Ludrik wrote: Glad I live in Australia. The only time I've ever tipped is when there's been a tip jar and I've had a lot of loose change in my pocket. IMO restaurants should pay their employees a decent salary and not expect tips. If the waiters do a shit job it shouldn't be up to the customer to feel obligated to pay them. The boss should just give them a warning or fire them.
hahahahah the aussie way.
And yeah 2.13 USD an hour :| holy shit, no wonder tipping is serious there. I only ever really grasped the concept of tipping when I watched movies like reservoir dogs (good movie, ta for link I loved that scene), and some Seinfeld episodes.
I guess it's a psychological perception in cheapness of food. Just like how car salesmen set car prices and shit to 19999 instead of "20 000" the consumer perceives that he is paying less money. Likewise having a coffee and a donut for like $2 USD + a tip or whatever, vs an Australian coffee+donut (like $7? fucking bullshit).
Did you know a cup of tea at university costs $3.20 at my university? A fucking small tiny LIPTON or DILMAH tea bag $3.20. This was before I had access to the faculties kitchen. But still when i'm desperate for a cup of tea and I have no where else to go, i have to fork up $3.20 for a measly cup of tea.
Many restaurants mandate a gratuity IF the party is 6 or larger.
This is due to many people skipping out on tips. It says it at the bottom of many restaurant menus. By ordering when you have 6 or more people, you are then agreeing to pay this gratuity. It no longer becomes a tip, and rather becomes part of the bill itself - that is the issue they are talking about.
I voted No, but I'm not sure on my answer completely - yeah you shouldn't be forced to tip if it was absolutely terrible service, but at the same time, if the restaurant has their policy STATE clearly that if you have a party of 6 you MUST pay an extra 18%, then the people should realize that and take it into consideration before eating.
On November 20 2009 13:31 FabledIntegral wrote: This is due to many people skipping out on tips. It says it at the bottom of many restaurant menus. By ordering when you have 6 or more people, you are then agreeing to pay this gratuity. It no longer becomes a tip, and rather becomes part of the bill itself - that is the issue they are talking about.
I voted No, but I'm not sure on my answer completely - yeah you shouldn't be forced to tip if it was absolutely terrible service, but at the same time, if the restaurant has their policy STATE clearly that if you have a party of 6 you MUST pay an extra 18%, then the people should realize that and take it into consideration before eating.
If the tips are mandatory, why don't they just charge people that extra 18% directly, and save the fuss?
Seriously, this is just stupid. A gratuity is recognition of the service. Forcing people to pay it defeats the whole point of a gratuity.
In Canada, servers are paid below the general minimum wage, but not by as much as they are in the USA (only $1.25 per hour less than minimum wage, at minimum, in Ontario). And most of their wages do come from tips anyways, with the better servers pulling in the better tips (generally). A good server can make a lot of money.
[QUOTE]On November 20 2009 13:25 liosama wrote: [QUOTE]On November 20 2009 12:21 Ludrik wrote: I guess it's a psychological perception in cheapness of food. Just like how car salesmen set car prices and shit to 19999 instead of "20 000" the consumer perceives that he is paying less money. Likewise having a coffee and a donut for like $2 USD + a tip or whatever, vs an Australian coffee+donut (like $7? fucking bullshit).
Did you know a cup of tea at university costs $3.20 at my university? A fucking small tiny LIPTON or DILMAH tea bag $3.20. This was before I had access to the faculties kitchen. But still when i'm desperate for a cup of tea and I have no where else to go, i have to fork up $3.20 for a measly cup of tea. [/QUOTE]
Good point. We don't pay mandatory tips, however our prices are higher to take this into consideration. At uni I think it's $3.40 for tea/coffee so consider yourself lucky at 3.20
On November 20 2009 13:31 FabledIntegral wrote: This is due to many people skipping out on tips. It says it at the bottom of many restaurant menus. By ordering when you have 6 or more people, you are then agreeing to pay this gratuity. It no longer becomes a tip, and rather becomes part of the bill itself - that is the issue they are talking about.
I voted No, but I'm not sure on my answer completely - yeah you shouldn't be forced to tip if it was absolutely terrible service, but at the same time, if the restaurant has their policy STATE clearly that if you have a party of 6 you MUST pay an extra 18%, then the people should realize that and take it into consideration before eating.
If the tips are mandatory, why don't they just charge people that extra 18% directly, and save the fuss?
Seriously, this is just stupid. A gratuity is recognition of the service. Forcing people to pay it defeats the whole point of a gratuity.
In Canada, servers are paid below the general minimum wage, but not by as much as they are in the USA (only $1.25 per hour less than minimum wage, at minimum, in Ontario). And most of their wages do come from tips anyways, with the better servers pulling in the better tips (generally). A good server can make a lot of money.
They did...
The extra 18% came on the very initial bill INCLUDED in the total.
The entire thing is, you're supposed to tip MORE when you have bigger parties. For example if you usually tip 15% when you go out with your gf, you're supposed to tip more than 15% when you have a large party. Most parties, however, tend to be cheap because the tip ends up being so high and it was once very common for people to give something like $10 tips for $150+ orders. Waiters basically get shafted, where they have more demanding work and less reward - thus incentive to perform well is also lessened (although you might think if they are guaranteed the tip they'd lose all incentive altogether).
Waiters get paid a fair ammount, service is a 10% fee that is optional and you pay 90% of the time and in the end the tips will be extra money you give the waiter, because the 10% included in the bill overall covers all service costs and let them make a decent ammount.
Mandatory service fee are the gayest shit, like Black Angus, Red Lobster, other buffets 18% for party of 8+ is robbery. (yes, for fucking buffets which you bring the food to yourselves)
Besides, the tip should go to the chefs for cooking the fabulous meals, not fucking waiter/waitresses that just take orders, bring plates, take out plates and refill water.
On November 20 2009 13:31 FabledIntegral wrote: This is due to many people skipping out on tips. It says it at the bottom of many restaurant menus. By ordering when you have 6 or more people, you are then agreeing to pay this gratuity. It no longer becomes a tip, and rather becomes part of the bill itself - that is the issue they are talking about.
I voted No, but I'm not sure on my answer completely - yeah you shouldn't be forced to tip if it was absolutely terrible service, but at the same time, if the restaurant has their policy STATE clearly that if you have a party of 6 you MUST pay an extra 18%, then the people should realize that and take it into consideration before eating.
If the tips are mandatory, why don't they just charge people that extra 18% directly, and save the fuss?
Seriously, this is just stupid. A gratuity is recognition of the service. Forcing people to pay it defeats the whole point of a gratuity.
In Canada, servers are paid below the general minimum wage, but not by as much as they are in the USA (only $1.25 per hour less than minimum wage, at minimum, in Ontario). And most of their wages do come from tips anyways, with the better servers pulling in the better tips (generally). A good server can make a lot of money.
They did...
The extra 18% came on the very initial bill INCLUDED in the total.
Yea, well, next time you go to a restaurant, see if they say "9.99 + tax + tip" or "13.30".
It essentially is the same thing, yet makes the restaurant look cheaper, and creates the illusion that tips are a thank you for good service.....
On November 20 2009 13:31 FabledIntegral wrote: This is due to many people skipping out on tips. It says it at the bottom of many restaurant menus. By ordering when you have 6 or more people, you are then agreeing to pay this gratuity. It no longer becomes a tip, and rather becomes part of the bill itself - that is the issue they are talking about.
I voted No, but I'm not sure on my answer completely - yeah you shouldn't be forced to tip if it was absolutely terrible service, but at the same time, if the restaurant has their policy STATE clearly that if you have a party of 6 you MUST pay an extra 18%, then the people should realize that and take it into consideration before eating.
If the tips are mandatory, why don't they just charge people that extra 18% directly, and save the fuss?
Seriously, this is just stupid. A gratuity is recognition of the service. Forcing people to pay it defeats the whole point of a gratuity.
In Canada, servers are paid below the general minimum wage, but not by as much as they are in the USA (only $1.25 per hour less than minimum wage, at minimum, in Ontario). And most of their wages do come from tips anyways, with the better servers pulling in the better tips (generally). A good server can make a lot of money.
They did...
The extra 18% came on the very initial bill INCLUDED in the total.
Yea, well, next time you go to a restaurant, see if they say "9.99 + tax + tip" or "13.30".
It essentially is the same thing, yet makes the restaurant look cheaper, and creates the illusion that tips are a thank you for good service.....
that and there is no "initial bill" there is a single bill received at the end of the meal. So the only initial indication you have as to the price of the meal is the menu, which does not include the "tip". some menu's include in fine print on the very bottom a statement that declares a 15% ( or whatever) "service" fee for parties including 6 or more individuals. Not some surprise "we ask you to give us 18% extra (gratuity) for going above and beyond our obligation, but if you don't we call the cops" nonsense.
Most restaurants will have the total cost which includes gratuity as one number in the check. So these people paid less than the amount they were charged.
The receipt usually looks like this is if the gratuity is mandatory.
Food Cost + Tax + 1X% Gratuity Total Cost
So there is one price that the customer pays. A normal bill won't include the + 1X% Gratuity line, and tipping is optional, though not tipping is considered pretty rude.
Edit: From the article, the pub claims that the manager offered to comp the food, which the people deny. Not sure who to believe there, but if the restaurant did comp the customer's food, then this is a pretty asshole-ish thing to do.
Obviously the manager did NOT offer to comp the meal. If he said "Have the meal for free." The couple wouldn't say Fuck off, we insist on paying full price minus the tip. We demand to pay you guys 73$ and 73$ only. Screw you stupid free food, I'd rather go to jail than not pay you 73$.
i dont get this mandatory tip stuff in the USA anyway. here in germany tips are not part of the bill and the customers have the free choice of whether and how much tip they give. this way, it is a means to reward for a good service or to punish for bad service.
on the other hand, the waitresses´ payment doesnt anticipate tips like in the states, so that they are not dependent on it. is it true that in the US they get like no official salary, and their actual salary basically consists of 100% tips?
I really doubt the cops are there to arrest them for that act alone. They were probably arguing and causing a scene and the business wants to get rid of them.
What entire fucking bullshit. I seriously hope that pub goes out of business for treating customers like that. If they were going to force them, by law, to pay the gratuity, why didn't they just make it part of the bill?
On November 20 2009 07:26 rinoh wrote: The business just screwed itself over by ruining their image and losing many potential customers over a 16 dollar tip. Good job!
A lot of times it's called a "service charge" rather than "gratuity" for that extra bit they tack on to the bill for large parties in restaurants. But regardless of what you call it, the restaurant is the one that gets to charge whatever price they want for their services, and if you don't like it you can simply not go there anymore. Normally a tip is not added to your bill, it's just a custom, but most restaurants make it clear on their menu that there is an additional fee for large groups.
A restaurant demanding a tip without _clearly_ advertising on the menu what the tipping rate is, is committing fraud. If the people in the OP were informed on the tip being mandatory, then they should have paid. However, having a mandatory tip is a marketing scam of the first degree.
I HATE restaurants that do this bullshit. I went to one with a party of 3 because they publicly advertised "50% off!" Unfortunately... they charged an additional 18% gratuity on the ORGINAL bill and provided terrible service... Food took over an hour to come (it was SUSHI DAMN IT YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO COOK IT) paying the bill took another hour because they screwed up their computer system and didn't know how to do math by hand... Assuming how shitty their service was, I would've paid 0 tip. Instead I ended up paying 18% "gratuity" on 2x the original bill... In other words... their "50% off" was complete bullshit and only amounted to 14% off.
If anything... these restaurant managers should be arrested for heinously deceptive advertising.
A mandatory tip is just another way that restaurant owners can get away with paying their waitresses less than minimum wage. The restaurant will get so much flak from this though... its not even worth it
fyi since most europeans seem to be surprised about this I dont know if someone mentioned but in the US its common to have a mandatory gratuity for groups over a certain size.
A table of 8 being charged a gratuity is pretty common.
Tip's in switzerland are completly up to the customer... I rarely/never give over 10%... And if i probably was drunk like hell and have lost all sense for money .
On November 20 2009 23:13 Velr wrote: You are strange folks over there .
Tip's in switzerland are completly up to the customer... I rarely/never give over 10%... And if i probably was drunk like hell and have lost all sense for money .
Wait staff probably gets paid more than the waiting staff in the states.
On November 20 2009 23:13 Velr wrote: You are strange folks over there .
Tip's in switzerland are completly up to the customer... I rarely/never give over 10%... And if i probably was drunk like hell and have lost all sense for money .
Wait staff probably gets paid more than the waiting staff in the states.
I have no doubt about that. But our tips don't really *scale* that much with the height of the bill. You just give what you think is good, you also don't get dirty looks (at least no long/strong ones ) if you don't give any at all. Most of the time we just round up to the next 5 or 10 bucks (i love this crysis... 1 swiss franc = 1$ makes being here a lot easyer :p... now just please crash that euro :p).
But well, it's a tip and it's really a way for you to say thank you for really good service. As soon as it is expected from you, it is pointless.
even though the idea of "waiters making their money from tips --> good service" is good i think it's very confusing and the end result uncorrelated.
why not just calculate the service charge into the food and fire/employ waiters based on interviews and not "let's hire them and hope they do well becaues of the tipping system"
cant belive people say that ok for get arrested for dont pay tips .
if you got bad service you can pay nothing , that up to the people what you want to give usualy , you should give 15 % when the service was ok .
usualy i alway pay 15 % but if i got realy bad service im going to pay nothing too . anyway you should never get arrested for pay nothing , that kinda stupid and crazy .
This is also true and hilarious. Whole story sickens me though, glad it was in your country and not mine.
yea, and all the police can do here is to take your contacts and let the restaurant pursue you in court. Do we have mandatory service charges? Somehow, from my memory, even if it is stated in the menu/by staff, it cannot be forced. Correct me if I am wrong.
If servers were paid more customers would be paying the cost in increased menu price. Then customers would be forced to pay for the "tips" anyway, but without being able to decide by what amount. Service is a hard thing to evaluate and judge unless you are the customer. Tips provide incentive for the server to provide good service, and allows the customer to decide on its value. Tipping is customary in the U.S., if you do not like to tip, you shouldn't go out to a full service restaurant.
On November 20 2009 17:31 Velr wrote: Why would you pay more if you are a bigger Group?
I would've thought that its easier to serve large groups.
I mean there's less overhead.
No it's actually a lot harder. At least from the perspective of the job the waiter(s) have to do and in terms of the kitchen getting all the food done reasonably close together and then getting it all to the table at once. It's also more work in terms of getting people refills and stuff, but hopefully they're drinking alcohol which actually makes it a bit easier, at least where I work because you just ring it in and everyone pitches in running drinks.
It's still good to get a large party though, provided they don't all share entrees and only drink water or BS like that. I mean, there isn't anything wrong with that, my family generally eats frugally at restaurants in terms of not getting sodas that cost $2 but then tip 20% so make up for the smaller bill.
On November 21 2009 01:35 Velr wrote: Service is not in any way harder to *measure* than most other Jobs whit no direct *result* (be it data, stacked bricks, cut tree's or whatever).
How would you measure it? What would the standards be? What would the measuring process actually be? How would you place value on that in order to create an effective server wage, and include that into the menu pricing? Is that process more efficient that tipping? People complain about having to tip, but tipping gives more control to the customer in terms of price for service.
On November 20 2009 17:31 Velr wrote: Why would you pay more if you are a bigger Group?
I would've thought that its easier to serve large groups.
I mean there's less overhead.
No it's actually a lot harder.
I think it depends on the kind of restaurant. For your average casual dining restaurant it is a lot harder. In a fine dining restaurant with reservations and a limited menu it can be easier, more so for the kitchen than the serving staff, but still easier.
On November 20 2009 07:31 Trezeguet23 wrote: I think if it is a "mandatory gratuity" it is like saying that you didn't get all 15$ of your 15$ steak and only paying 10$, or if you decide that you pay enough taxes already and not paying the sales tax.
Yes it sucks that that got crap service, but the bill is the bill.
exactly, i voted no before reading the article but lots of restaurants have mandatory gratuities for big parties (this was a group of 8) and not paying it is theft.
if this is the case then they have to let the people paying know about this don't they?
if they don't they expect to pay the price they see on the menu and thats it.
On November 20 2009 07:31 Trezeguet23 wrote: I think if it is a "mandatory gratuity" it is like saying that you didn't get all 15$ of your 15$ steak and only paying 10$, or if you decide that you pay enough taxes already and not paying the sales tax.
Yes it sucks that that got crap service, but the bill is the bill.
exactly, i voted no before reading the article but lots of restaurants have mandatory gratuities for big parties (this was a group of 8) and not paying it is theft.
if this is the case then they have to let the people paying know about this don't they?
if they don't they expect to pay the price they see on the menu and thats it.
It's usually mentioned at the bottom of a page on the menu.
My dad tells me all the time the origin of the word "tip" came from To Insure Promptness.
Now that's probably straight up wrong, but I think it still holds. Tips should not be a mandatory part of someones wage, they should be given based on performance, and in this case performance was really shitty, so no tip for you! (read in seinfeld soup nazi voice)
you guys are idiots. they call it a tip to make it sound nice when it's really a service fee. doesnt matter what they call it if it's mandatory you have to pay it. stop getting wrapped up in semantics.
Im a waiter myself. And it's really annoying when people pay little or no tip even for good service. I've had costumers who were extra happy and still paying like 0 tip. I mean waiters make money that way, if u go to the restaurant and spend money on food and drink have a decency to leave the tip. Otherwise eat at home!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm against tipping as a whole. I think employers should pay their employees more instead. If they want it to be performance-based, the employer should tip them. I pay the business, the business pays its employees. I don't get it.
On November 21 2009 10:22 thopol wrote: I'm against tipping as a whole. I think employers should pay their employees more instead. If they want it to be performance-based, the employer should tip them. I pay the business, the business pays its employees. I don't get it.
That makes no sense. The judge of the performance is the patron. The employer is not going to have a supervisor for every table to see how well the server is doing and tip them accordingly. If the employer pays the waiter then there is no incentive for great service since the waiter gets paid either way. Why work hard if you get the same hourly wage anyway?
On November 21 2009 09:57 SixSongs wrote: Im a waiter myself. And it's really annoying when people pay little or no tip even for good service. I've had costumers who were extra happy and still paying like 0 tip. I mean waiters make money that way, if u go to the restaurant and spend money on food and drink have a decency to leave the tip. Otherwise eat at home!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you do your job, even poorly you will get a tip from me. It's size will indicate how satisfied I am. If you were average (didn't greatly impress or disappoint) I will tip 15%. If however I have to do your job for you, you forget to bring my meal, or you do something that pisses me off you will receive either a very small tip, or no tip if I leave pissed off.
The fact that this thing is called a gratuity is bullshit, and it seemed obvious to me that the restaurant didn't offer to comp the food, otherwise why would they call the police.
The tip was a mandatory service fee which just happened to be called a 'gratuity'.
Why are people even talking about tip% and whether or not people should tip in the first place? Such things aren't related to the article in any way.
If the menu price of a hamburger is $10, you pay $10 regardless if you liked the hamburger or not.
The same goes with a mandatory service fee.
Business can charge what they want and customers have the right to purchase what they want. If you don't want to pay the mandatory fee then eat elsewhere. It's as simple as that.
On November 21 2009 10:43 lvatural wrote: The tip was a mandatory service fee which just happened to be called a 'gratuity'.
And what exactly is a `gratuity` in your mind.....
Gratuity = Voluntary. Look it up if you don`t believe me, either that, or look at the first page again.....
Service Fee = Mandatory.
Mandatory != Voluntary
Therefore, Gratuity != Service Fee.
Any other conclusion is just dumb.....
It`s just another idiocy created and brought to light by none-other than the United States of America, and the people residing in that country.....
it's a gratuity at 90% of restaurants. it's a gratuity at the restaurant these people were at for parties of 1-4 people (I GUARANTEE IT) the party they were in exceeded a certain number, which enacted a mandatory tip (i hate this as much as anyone) i don't mind tipping, though, as waitresses are the top job for single mothers. those babies have to eat somehow.
should these people go to jail? no are they going to regret paying 500$ bond over 16$? probably
On November 21 2009 10:43 lvatural wrote: The tip was a mandatory service fee which just happened to be called a 'gratuity'.
And what exactly is a `gratuity` in your mind.....
Gratuity = Voluntary. Look it up if you don`t believe me, either that, or look at the first page again.....
Service Fee = Mandatory.
Mandatory != Voluntary
Therefore, Gratuity != Service Fee.
Any other conclusion is just dumb.....
It`s just another idiocy created and brought to light by none-other than the United States of America, and the people residing in that country.....
You focus too much on the word 'gratuity'. It doesn't matter what the dictionary says, all that matters is how the business defines it.
If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have? The answer is still 4. Because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
Calling a mandatory service fee a 'gratuity' doesn't magically turn it into something that it isn't. Words are meant to portray a certain meaning...don't let the words themselves define what is trying to be portrayed.
It may be a bit distasteful for the business to call a mandatory fee a gratuity but that doesn't change the fact that it is.
On November 21 2009 10:43 lvatural wrote: The tip was a mandatory service fee which just happened to be called a 'gratuity'.
And what exactly is a `gratuity` in your mind.....
Gratuity = Voluntary. Look it up if you don`t believe me, either that, or look at the first page again.....
Service Fee = Mandatory.
Mandatory != Voluntary
Therefore, Gratuity != Service Fee.
Any other conclusion is just dumb.....
It`s just another idiocy created and brought to light by none-other than the United States of America, and the people residing in that country.....
oh my god you're a genius!
It`s not my fault that the waiter/waitress situation in the USA is so fucking stupid. And it`s starting to spread here. I`ve seen `mandatory gratuities`here in Canada recently..... And we don`t have a ridiculously low minimum wage for waiters/waitresses here.....
Granted, it`s incredibly rare to have bad service here, and when the service is bad, the problems always seem to get sorted out quickly and effectively, but trying to force someone to do something which is supposed to be voluntary - that`s just dumb.
On November 21 2009 10:43 lvatural wrote: The tip was a mandatory service fee which just happened to be called a 'gratuity'.
And what exactly is a `gratuity` in your mind.....
Gratuity = Voluntary. Look it up if you don`t believe me, either that, or look at the first page again.....
Service Fee = Mandatory.
Mandatory != Voluntary
Therefore, Gratuity != Service Fee.
Any other conclusion is just dumb.....
It`s just another idiocy created and brought to light by none-other than the United States of America, and the people residing in that country.....
You focus too much on the word 'gratuity'. It doesn't matter what the dictionary says, all that matters is how the business defines it.
If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have? The answer is still 4. Because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
Calling a mandatory service fee a 'gratuity' doesn't magically turn it into something that it isn't. Words are meant to portray a certain meaning...don't let the words themselves define what is trying to be portrayed.
It may be a bit distasteful for the business to call a mandatory fee a gratuity but that doesn't change the fact that it is.
As the son of a family that owns several restaurants I can say unequivocally that the pub is in the wrong 100%.
Yo, there is one thing that everyone in the service industry should know: The customer is ALWAYS right.
Like others in the thread have said, this is horrible publicity for the pub. It's just idiotic to chase $16 this way. We've called the cops before on people who walked out on their bill, but not if they just refused to pay the tip. That's obviously a failure on the business's part when the customer is that unhappy.
Seriously guys, the concept of tips is to reward waiter and waitresses for their good service. The amount of tip usually have a positive correlation with the quality of the service. Of course there are retards who won't pay any tips, but tips are tips, they are to show gratitude for the waiter/waitress. People usually give about 10 ~ 15% of the total cost for the tip, but people are not obligated to pay tips. Tips are forms of gratitude. If a waiter or waitress doesn't get any tip, then it just shows that he or she did a poor job and doesn't deserve being tipped.
Some countries like Japan don't even have the whole tipping system as they believe that waiter and waitress are getting paid for their job so they must work as hard as possible. If they do a good job at work, instead of getting tips, they get to keep their job.
The whole tip thing has become so fucking retarded in the United States that incidents like these happen. You are not obligated to pay the fucking tip, I do because I know how hard people work to earn money, but there are times when I just don't pay tip at all because service was just so bad. People have forgotten about my order and stuff before, but they usually compensate by giving me a free meal and things like that, but in this case, the store didn't even compensate the customers for the shit service that they received. Therefore, in this case, the couple shouldn't of have to pay the tip. Tip isn't regarded as a obligated thing in America, so saying that you HAVE to pay tip is complete bullshit. In this case, since they had to pay for the service, the store should of put in their menu that there will be a fucking service fee instead of calling it a "tip." There is no such thing as a mandatory tip and calling it a tip just tricks people, so the manager should be taken to court for false advertisement.
I just watched the video, and it said that it was a "mandatory gratuity." There is no such thing as a "mandatory gratuity" as "gratuity" is usually up to oneself to give or not. They should call it "mandatory service fee required" instead of "mandatory gratuity" those fucktarts.
On November 21 2009 10:43 lvatural wrote: The tip was a mandatory service fee which just happened to be called a 'gratuity'.
And what exactly is a `gratuity` in your mind.....
Gratuity = Voluntary. Look it up if you don`t believe me, either that, or look at the first page again.....
Service Fee = Mandatory.
Mandatory != Voluntary
Therefore, Gratuity != Service Fee.
Any other conclusion is just dumb.....
It`s just another idiocy created and brought to light by none-other than the United States of America, and the people residing in that country.....
You focus too much on the word 'gratuity'. It doesn't matter what the dictionary says, all that matters is how the business defines it.
If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have? The answer is still 4. Because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
Calling a mandatory service fee a 'gratuity' doesn't magically turn it into something that it isn't. Words are meant to portray a certain meaning...don't let the words themselves define what is trying to be portrayed.
It may be a bit distasteful for the business to call a mandatory fee a gratuity but that doesn't change the fact that it is.
ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
On November 21 2009 10:43 lvatural wrote: The tip was a mandatory service fee which just happened to be called a 'gratuity'.
And what exactly is a `gratuity` in your mind.....
Gratuity = Voluntary. Look it up if you don`t believe me, either that, or look at the first page again.....
Service Fee = Mandatory.
Mandatory != Voluntary
Therefore, Gratuity != Service Fee.
Any other conclusion is just dumb.....
It`s just another idiocy created and brought to light by none-other than the United States of America, and the people residing in that country.....
You focus too much on the word 'gratuity'. It doesn't matter what the dictionary says, all that matters is how the business defines it.
If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a horse have? The answer is still 4. Because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it one.
Calling a mandatory service fee a 'gratuity' doesn't magically turn it into something that it isn't. Words are meant to portray a certain meaning...don't let the words themselves define what is trying to be portrayed.
It may be a bit distasteful for the business to call a mandatory fee a gratuity but that doesn't change the fact that it is.
You're making quite a bit of unwarranted assumptions to charge them of false advertising.
This is what I'm basically saying: Let's say below is the clause and it's somehow reasonably made known to the customers.
"A gratuity charge of 10% will be applied to customers of party size exceeding 4"
Does saying the word 'gratuity' make it one? Of course not, it's a mandatory service fee that's simply called one.
Change `gratuity` in that sentence into something more suiting, like `something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service` (which is the definition according to Merriam-Webster) and you`ll see why it`s so fucking stupid.
"A something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service charge of 10% will be applied to customers of party size exceeding 4"
Something given voluntary or beyond obligation is being forced? Pretty fucking stupid..... That actually sounds like theft..... not to mention misleading, and blatantly lying in their advertisements.....
Too bad that probably didn't really affect businesses in that area that do charge a 'mandatory gratuity'. They'll simply call it something else and charge for the exact same thing.
The notion of levying an extra fee on large parties seems irrational to me. On the contrary, most places where I've been in a party of 10+ we would call in advance, get a discount for being such a large party (5-10% usually) and enjoy ourselves. 25 people entering a restaurant is a nice sum of money to make for any restaurant: exploit this as a customer, and say that if you're eating here, you won't be paying damn 'gratuity' (I'm with those who say that the words is stupid). Then it's the restaurants call whether it wants to make 500$ or lose 600$.
Of course when all the restaurants decide to fuck people with their pants on the system is inherently fucked up. Pay your waiters more, and I'll tip them if they do good. In Denmark waiters earn som 18-20$ minimum and service is very rarely bad. lol at 2.13$/h - why the fuck would people want to work for that, even with tips?
EDIT: From wikipedia: Laws in the states of Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington require all employees to be paid at least minimum wage. However, it is still customary to give standard tips in those places. Elsewhere, wage laws allow employers to credit an amount of earned tips against the minimum wage, allowing them to pay tipped employees less than minimum wage. As of September 2009, this reduction can be as low as $1.45 per hour in West Virginia, or as high as 100% in Virginia, reducing potential wages to $5.80 or $0 per hour, respectively. Which employees may have their wages reduced varies as well. The Fair Labor Standards Act defines a tipped employee as anyone receiving more than $30 per month in tips, although several states set a lower $20 per month threshold
'What do you make an hour?' 'Nothing, but the tipping is good' -.-
Some places have a mandatory tip fee. Pay it, or don't go there... "Nearly and hour" Give me a F***n break, almost all classy resturaunts take close to an hour to get a nice meal ready. Don't like the wait? Go to McDonalds you broke ass bitch.
Post Script, I do not think they should be arrested for that though, that's something that could have been taken up with upper management.
On November 21 2009 21:24 Rambling. wrote: Some places have a mandatory tip fee. Pay it, or don't go there... "Nearly and hour" Give me a F***n break, almost all classy resturaunts take close to an hour to get a nice meal ready. Don't like the wait? Go to McDonalds you broke ass bitch.
Post Script, I do not think they should be arrested for that though, that's something that could have been taken up with upper management.
An hour? In most restaurants the starter you should come within 15 minutes if the kitchen knows what it's doing. An hour to prepare the main course sounds a bit over the top for me: having worked in a restaurant as a dishwasher, the aim was less than 40 minutes for a main course.
Example:
18:50: Arrival 19:00: Orders placed 19:15: Starters served 19:30 starters finished: 19:45: Main course served 20:15: Dessert cart is passed around 20:20: Desserts are ordered 20:35: Desserts are served etc.
An hour is way, WAY too much to wait for food, unless you specifically enter a slow-food restaurant.
On November 21 2009 21:24 Rambling. wrote: Some places have a mandatory tip fee. Pay it, or don't go there... "Nearly and hour" Give me a F***n break, almost all classy resturaunts take close to an hour to get a nice meal ready. Don't like the wait? Go to McDonalds you broke ass bitch.
Post Script, I do not think they should be arrested for that though, that's something that could have been taken up with upper management.
Nearly an hour? Come on, thats definitely not true.. not in canada or anywhere else around the world. Even if you are right, the place that couple visited is probably nowhere near classy thus it shouldn't take that long.
On November 21 2009 21:24 Rambling. wrote: Some places have a mandatory tip fee. Pay it, or don't go there... "Nearly and hour" Give me a F***n break, almost all classy resturaunts take close to an hour to get a nice meal ready. Don't like the wait? Go to McDonalds you broke ass bitch.
Post Script, I do not think they should be arrested for that though, that's something that could have been taken up with upper management.
They waited an hour for chicken fingers and french fries. It takes less than fifteen minutes to make french fries. -_-
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
I wonder how many people know that waiters actually get TAXED on their expected tip by the federal government. So if you leave without tipping in America, the waiters are actually getting money taken out of their paycheck they never received.
Of course, in the long run they'll make money either way, but they are taxed at around 8% income tax on the value of the bills (or something of that sort). So not taxing not only fucks them over, but cuts into their pay checks!
What I don't get is if the tip is mandatory then they should just raise the price of the food and just put "Tip included in bill". When I buy my food I get a bill with one number - the price, including the tax etc. So simple.
On November 22 2009 19:01 ViruX wrote: What I don't get is if the tip is mandatory then they should just raise the price of the food and just put "Tip included in bill". When I buy my food I get a bill with one number - the price, including the tax etc. So simple.
It's because tip is ONLY mandatory on large parties, and the reasoning is large parties typically will skimp on tips when it's actually HARDER to manage large parties. Usually 6-8+ parties. I have never in my life seen a tip required for parties of say 4 or under.
But seriously - anyone wanting to argue semantics and how it's mandatory; that's under the assumption that the business in question is living up to their end of it, which they clearly weren't. I wouldn't care if it's on the menu or not, I wouldn't pay for crap service either.
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
1), Were they 8 people eating and drinkning and celebrating, and the check was on 73$? Were did they eat, Burger king?
2) This might sound controversial, but IN MY EXPERIENCE, working as a waiter/bartender for 6 years in a bunch of different countries (ie both usa and europe) ; churchgoers are actually tipping less and jews are barely tipping at all.
I tried to read the whole thread but dont have enough time; Mandatory gratuity for big parties is that it hurts more for the waiter to have a group of 10 neglect the tip, then a group of 2 and when you are in a group and order food and whatever drinks and coffe and cognad, two situations may occur: People just look at the bill and say "allright everybody throw in x amount and were good." People start to count what they ate, drank and forgets about a sideorder,a coffe and so on, so when they count again; there is just enough money, and everybody said they payed theire share and more.
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
wow, i dont care? its not my job to pay them a salary, its the manager/owner/host whatever. im only gonna pay for the food, let the EMPLOYER pay the EMPLOYEES. or do the logical thing and abolish this tip nonsense and pay them higher.
even if they get payed shit wages, its still a tip. optional
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
wow, i dont care? its not my job to pay them a salary, its the manager/owner/host whatever. im only gonna pay for the food, let the EMPLOYER pay the EMPLOYEES. or do the logical thing and abolish this tip nonsense and pay them higher.
even if they get payed shit wages, its still a tip. optional
Thats taking advantage of the system, and yes, it IS your job to pay them salary. Maybe you dont realise that with that system, they cut down the prices on food and drinks, and generally if you are a waiter/waitress in america they DO tend to make everything they can in order for you to have a good time, so if someone are having a bad day and not checking on my drink often enough will you freak out and dont tip them for the sake of a couple of dollars just to "prove the point that they did wrong?
But, as you say, the logical thing would be to raise the salary, wich will never happen.
On November 20 2009 07:45 Hawk wrote: Whether it's right or wrong, mandatory gratuity is a very common practice and is clearly printed on the menus before you order anything. This isn't being arrested for not tipping. It's not paying your bill. The article and op are misleading.
No such thing.
Mandatory:
authoritatively ordered; obligatory; compulsory: It is mandatory that all students take two years of math.
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
wow, i dont care? its not my job to pay them a salary, its the manager/owner/host whatever. im only gonna pay for the food, let the EMPLOYER pay the EMPLOYEES. or do the logical thing and abolish this tip nonsense and pay them higher.
even if they get payed shit wages, its still a tip. optional
Thats taking advantage of the system, and yes, it IS your job to pay them salary. Maybe you dont realise that with that system, they cut down the prices on food and drinks, and generally if you are a waiter/waitress in america they DO tend to make everything they can in order for you to have a good time, so if someone are having a bad day and not checking on my drink often enough will you freak out and dont tip them for the sake of a couple of dollars just to "prove the point that they did wrong?
But, as you say, the logical thing would be to raise the salary, wich will never happen.
no they dont "cut down" the prices on food and drinks. they just seperate some of the overall prices to make a number look smaller to trick you into thinking something is cheap eventhough it is not. its a scam. why dont they split the cooks work too? why dont they split the transport cost too? so in the end you would only see the price for the raw food. its a fucking idiotic system but americans dont get such stuff as they are too business protecting.
On November 22 2009 20:52 Pingvinen wrote: 1), Were they 8 people eating and drinkning and celebrating, and the check was on 73$? Were did they eat, Burger king?
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
wow, i dont care? its not my job to pay them a salary, its the manager/owner/host whatever. im only gonna pay for the food, let the EMPLOYER pay the EMPLOYEES. or do the logical thing and abolish this tip nonsense and pay them higher.
even if they get payed shit wages, its still a tip. optional
that's cool, you're a real rebel. how about you serve yourself then? because people won't be waiting on you for 2 bucks an hour.
the point of a tip is to increase the level of service you get. waiters are the face of the restaurant if their pay wasn't subject to how the customer viewed them do you think you'd receive the same level of service? how often does the manager or the cook come out and see you? the waiters give you good service because they can't survive without it. you in turn spit on them? you're kind of a piece of shit, you realize that right?
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
lol how come church goers tip less? o _O
no idea, I just know from talking with waiters/ex-waiters that church goers tend to be overly stingy.
On November 23 2009 10:52 kaizenmx wrote: So, it's unlawful to not tip when you get a shitty service?
Fucking fail.
no i'm pretty sure it's unlawful to not pay your bill though it's an interesting issue, i tried doing some research on it but i fail at using lexisnexis... :S i only got like 3 hits, none of which talk about Pa =s but hey at least i can tell you in Virginia, gratuities (mandatory or otherwise) are now exempt from tax (assuming it's less than 20%) so those saying that waiters get taxed on expected tip (and thus by not tipping you're kind of stealing their money) are not entirely correct!
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
They can't seriously make that little minus tips. How is that legal?
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
They can't seriously make that little minus tips. How is that legal?
According to the Fair Labor Standards Act, tipped employees are individuals engaged in occupations in which they customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer must pay at least $2.13 an hour in direct wages.
Having waited for several years during college I know how crazy things can get in a restaurant. I was quite good at the job and sometimes even I gave "bad" service (it wasn't as bad as this article). It's something that happens to the best of servers and that is something that everyone needs to understand. Myself I would never refuse to tip someone, I would say a 5% tip would be as low as I would go. Believe me when you get a 5% tip after you gave a table bad service you feel shitty. That said, there's no way that people should get arrested for refusing to tip, that's just crazy. It's exceptionally clear that the restaurant didn't offer to comp their meals though, the people wouldn't have fought if that was the case.
On November 21 2009 12:16 JohnColtrane wrote: ive never and will never pay a stupid tip to someone just because they did their job well. its why they are getting fucking payed, if they didnt do their job they wouldnt get their wage.
should anyone working in hospitality or customer service always get tips ? how about musicians, actors or even fucking potato farmers? if they did a good job growing potatos should he be able to enforce a tip? no fuck that, its a stupid system. tips should never be mandatory.
fair enough if i go to the US i would tip since its customary there and its not my country but i still dont think its the right thing to do. if anyone demanded a tip from me in australia i would laugh
People tip in america because waiters/waitresses usually get on average $1.50 to $2.00 an hour. That's far below minimum wage. It's not just some traditional thing to do. If you talk to most waiters they'll say they hate sundays because church goers tend to not tip or tip far below the 10% average regardless of how good the service was. It's not as customary as it may appear.
They can't seriously make that little minus tips. How is that legal?
According to the Fair Labor Standards Act, tipped employees are individuals engaged in occupations in which they customarily and regularly receive more than $30 a month in tips. The employer may consider tips as part of wages, but the employer must pay at least $2.13 an hour in direct wages.
from the US Department of Labor
Oh, they raised it, my mom made sub 2 dollars when she waited a when she was younger.
So if all americans here even agree their system is stupid, why don't they change it? Pay waiters at least minimum wages under all circumstances and include money for this in the paycheck. Nobody has to worry, nobody has to calculate percentages, you can give extra if you think the waitress had a great set.
EPT
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