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when i was in primary school we studied something called "world religion" and it was the egyptian, the greek, the scandinavian etc religions but we didnt do the big three. we studied them from a ficticious perspective and it was fine, but then again, we didnt touch on the big three, probably because we were an international school in hong kong, the school would get a lot of flak from parents.
i can only hope that they study the bible from a fictitious perspective but, knowing texas, I dont think thats the case.
this is very disappointing in the "church separate from state" controversy that has been around since a long time. non religious (note: not just atheists) people make up a large portion of the population (something like 16% ???? not sure but mentioned in the movie Religulous), why are they not given the choice to be excluded from these teachings that doesnt have an evidence to back it up?
I hate how if you're non religious suddenly you're an atheist and then suddenly you have no morals and you worship satan. trying to keep school religion free is the politically incorrect thing to do and it's just a very redneck, backward approach to the whole religion and school thing.
very very disappointing. ugh.
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United States42692 Posts
On August 17 2009 19:41 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 19:38 Kwark wrote:
If they ran a political course and only looked at the Republican party it wouldn't be balanced. You wouldn't say people still have the freedom to support the Democratic party and therefore it's fair. If they only looked at the Republican party, they would learn about the Republican party. They would still have the freedom to support the Democratic party, but they would be more informed, via standard education, of the Republican party. We make the mistake that kids should learn EVERYTHING in school. The only reason to be upset about this is if you allow school to be the child's only source of information. Do you know how much misinformation I received in my education over the years? Like the fact that gravity is caused by the rotation of the Earth...
Your education system said that gravity was from the rotation of the Earth? If the Earth's rotation was accelerating then you'd get some gravity that way but it'd be pulling you along the surface rather than down. Everyone who has ever been in a car knows that speed doesn't equal gravity but rather acceleration does. Along with the whole mass thing of course but I assume that somewhere along the line a teacher got confused about the acceleration because otherwise I'd have to lose even more faith in humanity.
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If they had made the texts of all the other major religions part of the curriculum I would have though it was a good idea. But only the bible? That's just absurd.
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Also a note that should be added:
Christians who argue for they'r view often use the gospels as a source of truth and evidence, how is this gonna be handled with the teachers? Are they gonna be able to maintain neutral?
Atleast from my childhood, the whole teacherstaff was 40 pluss and quite conservative
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Duplicate due to site problems. Deleted.
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On August 17 2009 19:47 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 19:43 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 19:39 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 19:35 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 19:33 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 19:31 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 19:29 benjammin wrote:
funding the training of teachers to teach explicitly one school of thought on religion is using public funds to prevent the study of other religions No, it is the teaching of a religion. It is important for preparation into college because world religions is typical subject matter. then teach WORLD religions, not ONE religion, only funding training for the teaching of one is oppression No, it is the teaching of a religion. I'm not going to repeat that again. No one is oppressing a religion since they still have the freedom to practice it. With the funding schools get, we're lucky they teach one. i'm not talking about freedom to practice it, i'm saying that choosing one from many and creating a mandatory state law to enact it and only it is systematically oppressing knowledge of religions other than christianity, i can't see why this point is so hard to concede If you're not talking about the freedom to practice a religion, then you're not talking about a constitutional issue; you're talking about a philosophical one. pretty sure this is a constitutional issue as long as we are talking about public schools taking public funds
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The law being passed gives an allowance to teaching the Bible in school given that they do not disparage any other religion and focus on the literary and historical values of the Bible only -- in essence not violating the First Amendment.
That Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion is defined by the U.S. Supreme Court as prohibition of the religion.
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The first impressions people get after reading the OP, is that it looks like the state is forcing everyone into the Christian religion, then again that might be true....
However, if this curriculum consists of objective studies on the Bible, looking it at the views of historical and literaturary values, then i guess it isn't such a bad thing at all, the main problem i see with this is that they are forcing it on every kids in school, also i doubt that the school is gonna teach kids about the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Witch Hunts, The Dark Ages, and all the good deeds in history in the curriculum.
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On August 17 2009 19:48 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 19:41 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 19:38 Kwark wrote:
If they ran a political course and only looked at the Republican party it wouldn't be balanced. You wouldn't say people still have the freedom to support the Democratic party and therefore it's fair. If they only looked at the Republican party, they would learn about the Republican party. They would still have the freedom to support the Democratic party, but they would be more informed, via standard education, of the Republican party. We make the mistake that kids should learn EVERYTHING in school. The only reason to be upset about this is if you allow school to be the child's only source of information. Do you know how much misinformation I received in my education over the years? Like the fact that gravity is caused by the rotation of the Earth... Your education system said that gravity was from the rotation of the Earth? If the Earth's rotation was accelerating then you'd get some gravity that way but it'd be pulling you along the surface rather than down. Everyone who has ever been in a car knows that speed doesn't equal gravity but rather acceleration does. Along with the whole mass thing of course but I assume that somewhere along the line a teacher got confused about the acceleration because otherwise I'd have to lose even more faith in humanity.
Faster rotation would reduce gravity due to centrifugal force since we'd constantly be attempting to continue into space. Acceleration does not create gravity but simulates it by enacting on an object attempting to stay in position while another object pushes it along. True gravity is caused by the distortion of space-time by an object's mass.
But this is derailing the subject at hand.
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and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools
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On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools
Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations.
I recall when prayer in school was banned. And I'm not talking about the prayer being initiated by teachers, I'm talking about the suspension of students praying anywhere on school grounds.
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On August 17 2009 20:14 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations. I recall when prayer in school was banned.
the law is REQUIRING the teaching
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On August 17 2009 20:14 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations. I recall when prayer in school was banned.
as it should be
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On August 17 2009 20:16 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 20:14 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations. I recall when prayer in school was banned. the law is REQUIRING the teaching
No it isn't.
The law says:
ELECTIVE COURSES ON THE BIBLE'S HEBREW
SCRIPTURES (OLD TESTAMENT) AND NEW TESTAMENT AND THEIR IMPACT ON
THE HISTORY AND LITERATURE OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION.
These courses are ELECTIVES, not requirements of the students, and is secular in its teaching.
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On August 17 2009 20:16 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 20:14 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations. I recall when prayer in school was banned. as it should be
No, it is a violation of the first amendment to prohibit practice of religion.
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United States42692 Posts
The school I went to was founded by an Anglican bishop and still got some of its funding from the Church, despite being a state school. There was a chapel and the headmaster would lead us in prayer in the mornings and every now and then we'd sing a hymn. Plus the occasional service in the Cathedral nearby. One of my friends was a Muslim (well, from a Muslim background, he was pretty casual about it all) and managed to get out of it all by saying he shouldn't be forced to worship the Christian God. I tried the same trick and got told to just go along with it anyway. Kind of silly because the only reason he got allowed that time off was because he was Bangladeshi whereas white kids like me aren't likely to complain. But I guess over time that'll change and it'll get increasingly secular as has been the trend.
The Government doesn't want to change it because they're getting free money from the Church, the schools don't care because they don't actually enforce the religious thing and I guess the Church would feel kind of guilty about pulling the funding on schools it founded because they're trying to help the community. Plus these days the Anglican church doesn't actually give a shit about whether people worship God, they just spend their time trying to be nice and encourage niceness. All in all it's a great scam to exploit old religious trust funds and I heartily approve.
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On August 17 2009 20:27 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 20:16 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:14 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations. I recall when prayer in school was banned. as it should be No, it is a violation of the first amendment to prohibit practice of religion.
Of course people can pray in school, but beeing forced to do morning prayers etc should be banned.
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On August 17 2009 20:32 Bozali wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 20:27 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:16 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:14 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations. I recall when prayer in school was banned. as it should be No, it is a violation of the first amendment to prohibit practice of religion. Of course people can pray in school, but beeing forced to do morning prayers etc should be banned.
Sorry I edited after you quoted it. I was talking about personal prayer.
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On August 17 2009 20:23 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 20:16 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:14 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:10 benjammin wrote:
and i suppose you think it's not disparaging to disregard other world religions in mandating this law? to me this just smells like jesus freaks trying to sneak the good book into public schools Nothing is being mandated. The law is ALLOWING the teaching given certain stipulations. I recall when prayer in school was banned. the law is REQUIRING the teaching No it isn't. The law says: ELECTIVE COURSES ON THE BIBLE'S HEBREW SCRIPTURES (OLD TESTAMENT) AND NEW TESTAMENT AND THEIR IMPACT ON THE HISTORY AND LITERATURE OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION. These courses are ELECTIVES, not requirements of the students, and is secular in its teaching.
it is requiring the schools to offer the courses, i didn't mean that the students were required to take them, school administrators are powerless if they feel uncomfortable about this policy
can you provide a source where individual displays of prayer are banned in public schools? teacher-led public prayer is (and should be) banned
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One of my friends was a Muslim (well, from a Muslim background, he was pretty casual about it all) and managed to get out of it all by saying he shouldn't be forced to worship the Christian God. I tried the same trick and got told to just go along with it anyway. Kind of silly because the only reason he got allowed that time off was because he was Bangladeshi whereas white kids like me aren't likely to complain.
haha replica of my story, doesn't work very well when your father is the minister.
Plus these days the Anglican church doesn't actually give a shit about whether people worship God, they just spend their time trying to be nice and encourage niceness. All in all it's a great scam to exploit old religious trust funds and I heartily approve.
Kind of the same story as norway, and i sincerely believe it comes from the fact that they're educated theologians and not just preachers. as with my family: my father is much more secular than my mother 
edit: because the "sacraments" is not what matters
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I think a course that looked at all religions from the greek gods to christianity from a purely historical/scientific point of view should be mandatory in all school. Tell the children how religions evolve over time and how festivals from former religions are incorporated into the new ones etc. Tell them different theories of the origin of religion and the inner workings of organized religions. Tell them all the facts about religions today, traditions etc and how religions have shaped our society.
Many people who aren't religious know very little about religion and many people who are religious know very little about other religions and only know what their priest and friends tell them about their own. I think this is important knowledge just like history since religion is a big part of our world. A course like that would both help educate people and help suppress fundamentalism and extremism within religion.
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EPT
