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On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:42 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:34 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:23 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
No it isn't.
The law says:
ELECTIVE COURSES ON THE BIBLE'S HEBREW
SCRIPTURES (OLD TESTAMENT) AND NEW TESTAMENT AND THEIR IMPACT ON
THE HISTORY AND LITERATURE OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION.
These courses are ELECTIVES, not requirements of the students, and is secular in its teaching. it is requiring the schools to offer the courses, i didn't mean that the students were required to take them, school administrators are powerless if they feel uncomfortable about this policy can you provide a source where individual displays of prayer are banned in public schools? teacher-led public prayer is (and should be) banned http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0098_Ban_on_school_prayer.html Here's an article I found. This was when I was a kid that prayer was banned when I was in middle-school in the late 80's. I was also in school where teacher-led prayer was allowed prior to the banning of all prayer, including personal prayer. The statute requires public schools to make this elective available, but it is a secular teaching, not a religious one. As you might have already noticed on Mr. Barton’s graph, America’s moral decline rapidly accelerated following one event – the U.S. Supreme Court’s removal of prayer from our nation’s schools. come on now, provide a real source, the 1962 supreme court ruling bans teacher-led prayer in schools, nothing else I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators
But you'd be assuming what the vet said was not true just like you're assuming what I'm saying is not true. You weren't there, and you're being cocky despite your lack of knowledge of the situation as it happened. But Aegraen is right, this is futile because you think you know it all.
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On August 17 2009 21:35 Aegraen wrote:
Nexus, it's futile to argue on this. They don't understand that allowing this to be taught isn't a violation of Church and State because for one, it is neither forcing nor coercing anyone into a set of beliefs that they do not follow. Seperation of Church and State means that the State does not endorse a State religion; such as Britain and Church of England.
The Secularists hold mantle and promote their beliefs in lieu of allowing the prospect and ability for other viewpoints. Neither forced, but allowing differing viewpoints on subject matter is a good thing. In any event this is why I said at the onset as long as Secularists bias, views, courses, etc. are in the schools so shall be religious. However, I believe the best benefit is that neither secularist nor religious matters are brought into school. It is my belief that, that subject matter is better suited for your family and home life.
Anyways, it's pretty futile because they believe that any mention of religion goes against "Church and State" which is false as evidenced by all the scripture on national buildings, monuments, and in our Founding Declarations.
Even, I an agnostic can attest to the aforementioned having no agenda of promotion involved. Facts are there.
look, if it's a purely non-religious teaching of the bible that does not aim to spread any of its dogma, i'd buy that, as public universities offer the same types of courses, but to have a course like that in a public high school filled with more impressionable youth instead of generally skeptical college students is a recipe for blurring the lines between secular and dogmatic, not to mention texas might not instill the greatest deal of confidence in people's mind when it comes to this type of matter
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actually no, i've changed my mind, even secular teachings of the bible should not be allowed
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On August 17 2009 21:43 benjammin wrote:
actually no, i've changed my mind, even secular teachings of the bible should not be allowed
Too bad you're not dictator for life, hm?
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On August 17 2009 21:44 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:43 benjammin wrote:
actually no, i've changed my mind, even secular teachings of the bible should not be allowed Too bad you're not dictator for life, hm?
how is any of that relevant, or are you to the 'personal attack' portion of disagreeing with me? i'm just expressing my opinion on the matter
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In fact, Benjammin, I bet you don't know what was so bad about Communism, do you? I bet you think it would have been just fine to let Communism spread.
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countdown to godwin's law!
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On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:42 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:34 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:23 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
No it isn't.
The law says:
ELECTIVE COURSES ON THE BIBLE'S HEBREW
SCRIPTURES (OLD TESTAMENT) AND NEW TESTAMENT AND THEIR IMPACT ON
THE HISTORY AND LITERATURE OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION.
These courses are ELECTIVES, not requirements of the students, and is secular in its teaching. it is requiring the schools to offer the courses, i didn't mean that the students were required to take them, school administrators are powerless if they feel uncomfortable about this policy can you provide a source where individual displays of prayer are banned in public schools? teacher-led public prayer is (and should be) banned http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0098_Ban_on_school_prayer.html Here's an article I found. This was when I was a kid that prayer was banned when I was in middle-school in the late 80's. I was also in school where teacher-led prayer was allowed prior to the banning of all prayer, including personal prayer. The statute requires public schools to make this elective available, but it is a secular teaching, not a religious one. As you might have already noticed on Mr. Barton’s graph, America’s moral decline rapidly accelerated following one event – the U.S. Supreme Court’s removal of prayer from our nation’s schools. come on now, provide a real source, the 1962 supreme court ruling bans teacher-led prayer in schools, nothing else I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators
What is so hard to believe?
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html
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On August 17 2009 21:45 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:44 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:43 benjammin wrote:
actually no, i've changed my mind, even secular teachings of the bible should not be allowed Too bad you're not dictator for life, hm? how is any of that relevant, or are you to the 'personal attack' portion of disagreeing with me? i'm just expressing my opinion on the matter
Personal attack? Are you saying you are dictator for life?
I'd call you a book-burner if I wanted to get personal, but I'm not going there.
My point is, you know nothing of the law, the constitution, the accurate history of the issue at hand nor the government of the U.S.
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Should be interesting O_o
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On August 17 2009 21:47 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:42 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:34 benjammin wrote:
[quote]
it is requiring the schools to offer the courses, i didn't mean that the students were required to take them, school administrators are powerless if they feel uncomfortable about this policy
can you provide a source where individual displays of prayer are banned in public schools? teacher-led public prayer is (and should be) banned http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0098_Ban_on_school_prayer.html Here's an article I found. This was when I was a kid that prayer was banned when I was in middle-school in the late 80's. I was also in school where teacher-led prayer was allowed prior to the banning of all prayer, including personal prayer. The statute requires public schools to make this elective available, but it is a secular teaching, not a religious one. As you might have already noticed on Mr. Barton’s graph, America’s moral decline rapidly accelerated following one event – the U.S. Supreme Court’s removal of prayer from our nation’s schools. come on now, provide a real source, the 1962 supreme court ruling bans teacher-led prayer in schools, nothing else I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators What is so hard to believe? http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html
how is that relevant? also, i agree with the firing there, even if the teacher's intentions were pure
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On August 17 2009 21:49 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:45 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:44 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:43 benjammin wrote:
actually no, i've changed my mind, even secular teachings of the bible should not be allowed Too bad you're not dictator for life, hm? how is any of that relevant, or are you to the 'personal attack' portion of disagreeing with me? i'm just expressing my opinion on the matter Personal attack? Are you saying you are dictator for life? I'd call you a book-burner if I wanted to get personal, but I'm not going there. My point is, you know nothing of the law, the constitution, the accurate history of the issue at hand nor the government of the U.S.
what part am i wrong about? the part you don't agree with?
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On August 17 2009 21:50 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:47 Aegraen wrote:On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:42 NExUS1g wrote:[quote] http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0098_Ban_on_school_prayer.html Here's an article I found. This was when I was a kid that prayer was banned when I was in middle-school in the late 80's. I was also in school where teacher-led prayer was allowed prior to the banning of all prayer, including personal prayer. The statute requires public schools to make this elective available, but it is a secular teaching, not a religious one. As you might have already noticed on Mr. Barton’s graph, America’s moral decline rapidly accelerated following one event – the U.S. Supreme Court’s removal of prayer from our nation’s schools. come on now, provide a real source, the 1962 supreme court ruling bans teacher-led prayer in schools, nothing else I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators What is so hard to believe? http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html how is that relevant? also, i agree with the firing there, even if the teacher's intentions were pure
This is an exact example of your ignorance to the situation.
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On August 17 2009 21:51 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:49 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:45 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:44 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:43 benjammin wrote:
actually no, i've changed my mind, even secular teachings of the bible should not be allowed Too bad you're not dictator for life, hm? how is any of that relevant, or are you to the 'personal attack' portion of disagreeing with me? i'm just expressing my opinion on the matter Personal attack? Are you saying you are dictator for life? I'd call you a book-burner if I wanted to get personal, but I'm not going there. My point is, you know nothing of the law, the constitution, the accurate history of the issue at hand nor the government of the U.S. what part am i wrong about? the part you don't agree with?
I don't agree with any part of what you're saying, and the reason I don't is because of your lack of knowledge of the aforementioned list.
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On August 17 2009 21:51 NExUS1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:47 Aegraen wrote:On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:50 benjammin wrote:
[quote]
[quote]
come on now, provide a real source, the 1962 supreme court ruling bans teacher-led prayer in schools, nothing else
I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators What is so hard to believe? http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html how is that relevant? also, i agree with the firing there, even if the teacher's intentions were pure This is an exact example of your ignorance to the situation.
try elaborating instead of insulting
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On August 17 2009 21:50 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:47 Aegraen wrote:On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 20:42 NExUS1g wrote:[quote] http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0098_Ban_on_school_prayer.html Here's an article I found. This was when I was a kid that prayer was banned when I was in middle-school in the late 80's. I was also in school where teacher-led prayer was allowed prior to the banning of all prayer, including personal prayer. The statute requires public schools to make this elective available, but it is a secular teaching, not a religious one. As you might have already noticed on Mr. Barton’s graph, America’s moral decline rapidly accelerated following one event – the U.S. Supreme Court’s removal of prayer from our nation’s schools. come on now, provide a real source, the 1962 supreme court ruling bans teacher-led prayer in schools, nothing else I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators What is so hard to believe? http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html how is that relevant? also, i agree with the firing there, even if the teacher's intentions were pure
I'm inclined to point out that borders on Fascism. You will allow secularist/atheist views in the school, but not religious? If that's not indoctrination I don't know what is; nor is having religion in schools a breach of the First Amendment. The First Amendment explicitly precludes the adoption of a STATE RELIGION. It does nothing to mention that there shall be no mention of religion in any place where government funds are used. If that was the case then there would be no scripture on any of national monuments, buildings, and no President would make mention of religion, but that isn't the truth now is it?
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On August 17 2009 21:52 benjammin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:51 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:47 Aegraen wrote:On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:
[quote]
I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators What is so hard to believe? http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html how is that relevant? also, i agree with the firing there, even if the teacher's intentions were pure This is an exact example of your ignorance to the situation. try elaborating instead of insulting
I'm not insulting you. I'm not saying you're ignorant, but I'm saying your view of the situation is about as broad as a railroad track.
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why should my tax money support the teaching of a religion that i don't believe in? i believe in grammar and science! religion is a private matter, using public funds to support the teaching of it is creating a de facto state religion
check every supreme court case dealing with separation of church and state (you can start with mccollum v. board of education), that's been the interpretation of the constitution for years and years, take your grievances up with that, not me
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On August 17 2009 21:58 benjammin wrote:
why should my tax money support the teaching of a religion that i don't believe in? i believe in grammar and science! religion is a private matter, using public funds to support the teaching of it is creating a de facto state religion
check every supreme court case dealing with separation of church and state (you can start with mccollum v. board of education), that's been the interpretation of the constitution for years and years, take your grievances up with that, not me
You don't own money, so it is not "your" tax money.
And Wikipedia articles and the Internet are not the foremost research tools and often times are not even allowed in scholarly writings as references.
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On August 17 2009 21:52 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2009 21:50 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:47 Aegraen wrote:On August 17 2009 21:35 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:30 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:19 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:16 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 21:14 benjammin wrote:On August 17 2009 21:01 NExUS1g wrote:On August 17 2009 20:50 benjammin wrote:
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come on now, provide a real source, the 1962 supreme court ruling bans teacher-led prayer in schools, nothing else
I was there, I'm sorry that isn't enough of a "real source" for you. It was related to the "prayer around the flagpole" that happened at about that time. I imagine you'll have to look at microfiche of newspapers at the time since the Internet wasn't around at the time. It'd be in the late 80's during the school year. I was in Texas at the time, so it'd be a good start for you. why's the burden of proof on me for something you said that's incorrect? It's not incorrect, for one. I was there -- I know what happened during my life. Just because you weren't there, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Secondly, I can't exactly post microfiche for you, can I? And I don't think you live in Portland for us to go together to the library to look for the information. prayer is only prohibited in public schools if it is organized, they aren't roaming the lunchrooms looking to pick off kids with their hands folded and drag them in front of a magistrate; if the interpretation in your school was that any form of public display that could be constituted as prayer was banned, that was wrong Look, I doubt you were even born at the time so you don't know what happened. And yes, if they caught you praying before eating lunch, you got dragged to the principle's office and suspended for, I think, three days. The whole ordeal happened over the span of a few months, and it's one of those things that if you weren't there, you'd think it never happened. Look, I remember Jimmy Carter being president. I grew up with Reagan and the Cold War and being worried about a global nuclear war. I was nearly an adult when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred. I watched Desert Storm in my Junior High classroom. I watched the Challenger disaster live on T.V. I was in high school when the Internet came out. These are things that, even if you remember some of them, is a faint pittance in your mind. I know what happened, you weren't there, you didn't experience it for yourself, and you shouldn't question someone who was there. I don't think you'd question a Vietnam survivor about what he said happened when he was in Vietnam. i would if the things he were saying were not true, and if that's what was happening at your school (which i have a hard time believing but whatever), it was not in accordance with any supreme court decisions about prayer in schools. i'd say it might have been a local thing, but if you were in texas that's even harder to believe. if that was really the case, blame incompetent school administrators What is so hard to believe? http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/30/nyregion/furor-over-school-prayer-stuns-a-fired-teacher.html how is that relevant? also, i agree with the firing there, even if the teacher's intentions were pure I'm inclined to point out that borders on Fascism. You will allow secularist/atheist views in the school, but not religious? If that's not indoctrination I don't know what is; nor is having religion in schools a breach of the First Amendment. The First Amendment explicitly precludes the adoption of a STATE RELIGION. It does nothing to mention that there shall be no mention of religion in any place where government funds are used. If that was the case then there would be no scripture on any of national monuments, buildings, and no President would make mention of religion, but that isn't the truth now is it?
presidents can of course make mention of religion, don't be insane. to quote JFK:
Considering the separation of church and state, how is a president justified in using the word 'God' at all? The answer is that the separation of church and state has not denied the political realm a religious dimension.
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EPT
