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On September 05 2011 09:48 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:18 Candadar wrote:On September 05 2011 08:49 Jibba wrote:On September 05 2011 07:37 Candadar wrote:On September 05 2011 04:50 Jibba wrote:On September 04 2011 23:27 cocoa_sg wrote:On September 03 2011 15:00 Jibba wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So some thoughts about the gaming, going through it on DX difficulty. The first time I tried stealth, but then I switched to combat and had more fun. Let me first say this is currently the GOTY, but I don't expect that to last when the heavy hitters come out later this year. This is still very much a console game and you can feel it in a number of different areas. They're mostly little things, but they add up to annoy me. Climbing, talking, inventory/sales menus, the cover system and a few other things. Sure they did some work to bring it to a mouse and keyboard (item bar, keypad password entrylol) but overall as a port, they really only did a decent job. A lot of people are still reporting input issues and the sensitivities really don't feel right until you tweak things. More than that, they just did a shitty job optimizing the game. Most highend setups seem to have no problems while some do, but for a game of this graphics level, performance should be better across the board. As for the graphics, they're really poor for a 2011 game. Don't mistake what I'm saying, the art direction is really cool and gives the game a good style but the graphics themselves, the nuts and bolts behind everything and the driving engine, are not good. We know it's UE3, but a lot of the game looks like it's from the gen1 Source engine. They talked a lot about tessellation and faces, but the faces look terrible. Adam is really the only one who looks alright, and the rest look worse in live action than they do in screenshots. Now that's a superficial complaint and some will argue that graphics shouldn't matter (although I disagree, for the purposes of immersion they absolutely do) but the bigger issue in my complaint of the graphics is what they weren't able to do. For a game that devoted a lot of attention to stealth play, there's a remarkable lack of decent lighting in the game and in fact, the lighting never really plays a role. It didn't necessarily need Splinter Cell perma-stealth in shadows, but a modern 2011 stealth game could be a whole lot better if it took advantage of dynamic lighting, and we know the UE3 is capable of it. Let's hope Thief 4 doesn't drop the ball. On to the stealth play itself and why I switched to combat- I just don't like it in this game. Let's ignore cloak for a minute, which while overpoweringly useful is just a weak design choice. Eidos essentially took the Arkham Asylum style of adventure game, which gives you an overwhelmingly useful HUD but detaches you from the game a bit. Because lighting doesn't matter, stealth basically boils down to following your radar and using cover to avoid LoS. The cover and LoS function in a kind of silly way, where you're just not going to get noticed if you press the cover button, and you just dodge around while looking at your radar instead of looking at the enemies, but it's basically a requirement because the stealth system is so simplistic. Once you get cloak, you largely sidestep the process and even sound stops mattering. In my opinion, switching back and forth between first and third person is actually less immersive than just being in third person the entire time. Another major deficiency in the stealth system are the lack of grabs. Take downs look cool in an Assassin's Creed kind of way (although I'm not a fan of going into movie-view) but they're also quite dumb. Not just dumb for the game, but dumb for Adam too. Grabbing and incapacitating a guy from the shadows or behind a box and pulling him away without anyone noticing is much more interesting than just stepping out and knocking him out/killing him in the middle of the room. Adam needs to learn some subtlety. That's the gist of why I stopped caring about stealth play. It's a lot of waiting while looking at my radar, which makes it seem a lot less like I'm in the game, and once you get decent cloak you can start being careless. Combat has been a lot more fun, but it has a few glaring weaknesses as well. First, the AI. We all know the AI is just wretched in this game. It's incredibly dumb, it's easy to trick and they're never going to do much to flush you out. The only difficulty in the game at Deus Ex level is the few amount of hits you can take, but if your aim is good you can easily take out two people before a shot is fired on you and if you've got enough silenced sniper rifle ammo, that number is infinite. I JUST HEADSHOTTED THE PERSON YOU'RE TALKING TO. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALARMED AND PACING AROUND SLOWLY. Then once you're spotted, everyone immediately knows where you are, including people just running into the room, and fires at your direction. Even then, once you learn how to pick them off one at a time through good angles, you won't really be in trouble. The second problem with combat is that the weapons suck. Granted, the weapons in DX1 weren't that great either (besides Dragon's Tooth) but it seems like it's just too easy to level up a weapon (especially 10mm) and stick with it the entire game. I guess that's the same in DX1 as well, but the gun specializations made it so that you still kept upgrading your weapons through augments, on top of the weapon enhancements. And that speaks to a weakness in the augmentation system as a whole. Most of them suck, or are so good and so cheap that you just take them. There just isn't that much choice because acquiring points isn't that hard, and the things worth taking are pretty obvious. At least in DX1, there were some important sacrifices to make so you felt a bit more unique. Also, besides Icarus and Typhoon, they're just too generic. Spending skill points to upgrade your inventory is just >.> Not even WoW would make you do that. As for the story, I mean... it's Deux Ex. The script and voice work is good in some areas, so-so in others. The bad guys in this game definitely aren't as interesting as DX1 though. I'm sure if you were to play DX1 after DXHR, you'd feel the same way about DX1's story that I do about DXHR's. Still a great story, just slightly less great the second time around. And it's also missing a Gunther.  I know this is an extremely critical review, but I did still have fun playing it. It takes a lot longer than most other modern games so it definitely deserves credit for that, and the situations/gameplay definitely are interesting. It's not nearly as much of a "choice" game as people are making it out to be, as most things just come down to A or B and the minigames (conversation and hacking) are incredibly simple and easy once you get the right augments. I felt like it was a much bigger deal to make decisions in DX1, but to be honest, that might just be a rosy memory. So it's a fun, long FPS game. Borderline RPG-y, but usually not really. Certainly a great game by today's standards, I'm just let down that there's so many areas where it could be better and the fundamental limitation behind all of them (graphics, simplicity, immersion) are that it's a console game. Something like an action-Splinter Cell hybrid would've been more interesting to me. Seriously? Why would you be so biased against a game that is primarily made for consoles? Why not embrace both the PC and console platforms, like me, instead of giving fellow PC gamers a bad name (which they have had for a long time, what with piracy and the like)? Too much whining can really bring out a bad impression of people like you. You have played Assassin's Creed and Batman: Arkham Asylum before. Surprise, they were also made for consoles and then later distributed for Windows. In fact, they were ported over to the PC. There is nothing wrong or anything criminal with being a console player, myself included. They have amazing exclusives, especially the PS3, like the Uncharted series, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Red Dead Redemption, L.A. Noire, Dead Space and the like. Have you even heard of them? Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a very well-made game but has its flaws as well. Still, you cannot bottle it down to being a console limitation; that is just silly and biased. In recent years, developers have been deviating away from the PC platform for obvious reasons, and you are smart enough to know what they are, and yet you still have Witcher 2, Starcraft, and other PC exclusives to thank for. Battlefield 3 will also see a larger multiplayer presence on the PC platform compared to consoles. Do I ever complain about that? No. So instead, embrace both PC and console games as a way of life, will you? Stop whining, and putting the blame on consoles, and we will all get along, and eventually get a better impression of PC gamers as a more mature type. Thank you. =3 We have different expectations for what's a great game. Mentioning those other titles does nothing to change the fact that the game had to use simpler controls/mechanisms and simpler lighting/graphics to be console friendly. For the scope of a game like DX, these things were not sufficient. For something simpler like AC (which is a pretty mediocre series) and AA, it's fine. While I agree that this game has been heavily consolized -- come on. It still did a lot of things right. Instead of two weapon syndrome, you could have up to 10 on a hotbar. Instead of some shitty inventory system, it used a REALLY good one in my opinion. All the consolized shit (Objective markers, highlighting objectives, reticules, etc.) can be disabled. You can even change the fucking Field of View in the options. The graphics are essentially because the game was started being developed almost 4 years ago. So of course they won't be completely top notch and modern, but I still loved them. don't know about you, but this game looks absolutely gorgeous in DX11 and significantly better than consoles, so I don't know where you got that idea from. You could tell this game had to be cut down a bit for consoles, but come on -- you're overreacting. I mean, I'm genuinely curious on what you are thinking they left out in terms of controls or gameplay that makes this game heavily consolized that can't be disabled in 3 seconds in the game menu. I made a huge post about it on the other page. And these are not bad graphics because it was started in 2007. The programming didn't begin in 2007 and even in 2007 games looked better than this (after all, the king of the engines came out in 2007.) Even within the game, there's examples of decently high detailed areas like Adam's apartment (although the UE3 recreation looks better.) The rest of the game looks 1/2 that good, though. Even the inventory system is lacking because the inputs are clunky (which is a problem with every dialogue screen in the game, including hacking/chat - the selection box has to be reselected to work) and you can't do simple things like right click. EDIT: I know I sound mad as fuck, I'm not. I just come off as a bit hostile when I'm debating.  Hold the fuck up. The UE3 engine? You know, that engine that every console game ever since the beginning of ever uses and is the tell-tale give away of a console port? You think that looks better than this? I'm actually a bit offended by that  I think that UE3 rendering of it is fucking trash, in all seriousness. The windows are literally white, that's bloom to the maximum. The lighting is also very meh compared to the original version. Not everything has to be photo-realistic. I'll be the first to make fun of someone who is saying that their game with terrible graphics is just a fancy art style (*cough* Dragon Age 2 *cough*), but this is genuinely something that can be attributed to that. Secondly, a clunky inventory system (I didn't find it clunky at all?) does not make it a shitty consolized trash game. And I never had that selection box problem in my two playthroughs of the game. Let me make it clear again that I know and accept that this game has been reduced in quality due to consoles. That the graphics could have been more detailed if it weren't for consoles restrictions. That perhaps a lot more depth could have been added. It's overbloomed, but a dynamic lighting system built into the stealth would improve the game dramatically. As it is, stealth is extremely simple and easy to "game." There's plenty of weakness in UE3 games but that's on the developers, not the engine itself. And keep in mind, that was just an amateur recreation. I need to find a better way to describe how the menus work. It's designed to be pointed to, and then A-> drop menu -> A. If you've ever played around with Jamella's, it should've been like that (obviously different look, but same essential UI.) Out of all the game inventories I've used, it feels the worst. When you move, it always moves from the top left corner. No right clicking. If a new menu option pops up under your mouse, you can't click it until you move the mouse a bit. These are all small traces. Show nested quote +However, that does not make this a console port. The hacking is the most fun hacking mini-game I have played in a LONG fucking time. Especially once you start reaching Level 5 terminals, strategy really starts to come into play with how you use your buffs, your reinforcing, your paths to the finish, etc. Really? Hacking was EXTREMELY easy and fairly simple, in my opinion. Although it was slightly more complicated, it was definitely easier than the pipe mini-game in Bioshock. If you're using a controller (and thus activating nodes takes longer to do), I can see how it would be challenging. With a mouse, and quickly clicking through several nodes at once, it becomes extremely easy with a couple points in Stealth and gathering up Nukes/Worms is easy. Show nested quote +The only thing in this game that can be slightly attributed to "console trash" is the takedown system, but even that is extremely balanced in my opinion with the high energy cost and only one of your bars able to regenerate naturally. The takedown system is one of the worst parts of the game, in my opinion. Like I explained before, not only is it fucking stupid to knock a guy out in the middle of the room instead of grabbing him and dragging him away discretely (think Splinter Cell), but it's also just a cheesy cinematic. The fact that it requires energy is stupid too. The game might actually be better and allow for more playstyles if it didn't have an energy cost. You mean the 10mm show? Most of the other weapons are so-so, but the pistols are completely overpowered and the Typhoon trivializes bosses. Combined with the poor AI and there really isn't much gunplay to be had. If you go the combat rifle route, it's a bit more interesting but then you're forced into the cover system and spraying back at enemies. Wholeheartedly disagree. Adam's Christian Bale Batman impression gets old pretty quickly and the writing isn't that good. It's better than SC2's writing but that's not an achievement. The voices themselves are fine, but the things they're saying are stupid. Especially all the gangsters. On top of that, the persuasion system is another example where the game takes you out of the experience and puts you into stare-at-HUD mode. All you do is stare at the personality trait lights and you're golden. Then again, if you were to actually look at the character faces and models during a conversation, you'd break out laughing because they all have Parkinson's. Literally everyone in the game is doing Artosis wiggles. Show nested quote +and the graphics are pretty damn good for having to be stuffed onto consoles as well. There's my point.
We both clearly have opinions on this game that are completely opposite, so I do not believe we will sway each other -- but I will respond to your points anyways. Keep in mind that all of your points are perfectly legitimate to me . Not gonna bother breaking you into quotes, so I'll just number them for simplicity's sake.
1) My main point being is that you complain about the graphics low quality and consolization, but then link the engine most attributed with the consolization of games. I do not agree even with a professional's rendering this game would have 'worked' with UE3, or any form of photorealistic engine. I think the graphics for it suit it well. Some games, like Crysis, require Crysis Graphics. This game is not one of them.
2) If these happened I never noticed them, so no comment.
3) I play on PC, so I have no idea how it works for consoles. I'm going to work with Bioshock's system since that is your example. The mini-game in Bioshock was admittedly very fun and challenging despite how fuck-easy it was, but it quickly became the most trite hacking system ever. I suppose the same could be said for Deus Ex's, but to me, personally, the dynamic of having to plan paths, reinforce nodes, and strategically use nodes and bombs despite how easy it may be after a while is exponentially more fun than doing something that belongs in a flash game in the pipe maneuvering of Bioshock.
4) I agree wholeheartedly that a Splinter Cell system would have been ideal. Note how I said that that is the only thing in this game to be considered consolized or casualized. However, I furthered that notion with at least they balanced it to an appropriate level.
5) Correction, the Revolver was overpowered. Explosive rounds just trivialized every boss fight after taking it (which for me was Namir/Zhao). I never felt frustrated with the guns though. The snipers were fun, the rocket launcher was just boat loads of awesome, the grenade launcher was cool and handled well, and all the other weapons were well balanced and handled with the exception of the Combat Rifle. I will agree with the Typhoon, but I didn't have it my first time through and it made the game far more fun and challenging.
6) Perhaps when I said "voice acting" I should have said "everyone but Adam's", I agree that that got old when I was playing the leak two months ago. Also, I did not get the social enhancer so I did not get that experience of dialogue being simple as fuck. I think a lot of this conflict between us two is that you took a lot of the augs that made the game inherently easier. That is not a jab at you, but rather I took things that I felt were cooler and useful at the time rather than Stealth Hacking, Typhoon, and Social Enhancer. Those may have made the game so trivial in ways the developers did not expect, and perhaps that ruined your experience. But my experience without those was fucking A+
7) As I said, the facial animations were always lulzy as fuck. Go play DX1 and laugh to your hearts content. I'm actually glad at how bad the facial animations are.
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On September 05 2011 09:48 Jibba wrote:
Wholeheartedly disagree. Adam's Christian Bale Batman impression gets old pretty quickly and the writing isn't that good. It's better than SC2's writing but that's not an achievement. The voices themselves are fine, but the things they're saying are stupid. Especially all the gangsters. On top of that, the persuasion system is another example where the game takes you out of the experience and puts you into stare-at-HUD mode. All you do is stare at the personality trait lights and you're golden. Then again, if you were to actually look at the character faces and models during a conversation, you'd break out laughing because they all have Parkinson's. Literally everyone in the game is doing Artosis wiggles.
What kind of games are you playing?
I admit I was like "Really?" when I heard Adam's batman voice, but I got used to it.
My impression of the writing is it's fantastic. You can't take any line out of the game and call it poetry, and maybe some things might be stupid, but they never break the suspension of disbelief for me. I can ask for as much detail as I want, read as many articles as I want, and all of it feels real. The writers have brought the world to life. The persuasion system makes me really pay attention to what someone is saying, and I am very careful about what I say because there will be consequences.
My point is everything lends to the immersion factor, which to me is one of the most important parts of a video game as an experience. I really care about Adam and who I make him as a person, I so desperately want to find out what the hell is going on around me, I just want to find Megan and be sure she's safe.
I did notice that the animations are still somewhere in the uncanny valley, but I've never stared at a character's face in a video game and thought it looked like it wasn't a video game. I wasn't expecting the game to be a state of the art display of facial animation. It is what I expected for a video game in 2011.
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Jibba I want to play whatever game meets your standard because its gotta be the best game in history given what you see as acceptable game design.
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On September 05 2011 10:12 Senx wrote:
Jibba I want to play whatever game meets your standard because its gotta be the best game in history given what you see as acceptable game design.
Don't jump on him, he's perfectly correct and obligated in his opinion of this game. It is quite clearly negated to a level due to the consolization of it. If I wanted a pure PC gaming experience, there are plenty of other games out there for me and everyone else.
Want some examples that meet those standards that I'm sure he speaks of?
The Witcher 2 in terms of RPG. Crysis and Crysis Warhead in terms of shooters.
Have a ball.
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On September 05 2011 10:12 Senx wrote:
Jibba I want to play whatever game meets your standard because its gotta be the best game in history given what you see as acceptable game design.
Half-Life 2 yo.
It amazes me how games still can't design a character as fluid and amazingly rendered as Alyx Vance. Games like DE3 are a step backwards.
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On September 05 2011 02:32 Ghostpvp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 23:53 xHassassin wrote:
Is it me or are boss fights like ridiculously hard. I never carried around nades or health packs so they were a huge PITA for me.
Also what weapons would you guys carry? I literally carried like 5 weapons at a time, basically had no inventory space. Nades/Mines/Typhoon trivialize bosses to the point of 2-3 shoting them.
Typhoon x 2 + 1 Revolver shot. Kills bosses on hard mode.
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On September 05 2011 02:32 Ghostpvp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 23:53 xHassassin wrote:
Is it me or are boss fights like ridiculously hard. I never carried around nades or health packs so they were a huge PITA for me.
Also what weapons would you guys carry? I literally carried like 5 weapons at a time, basically had no inventory space. Nades/Mines/Typhoon trivialize bosses to the point of 2-3 shoting them.
Typhoon x 2 + 1 Revolver shot. Kills bosses on hard mode.
Laser Rifle/Gun Kills final boss in seconds.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 05 2011 10:09 saus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:48 Jibba wrote:
Wholeheartedly disagree. Adam's Christian Bale Batman impression gets old pretty quickly and the writing isn't that good. It's better than SC2's writing but that's not an achievement. The voices themselves are fine, but the things they're saying are stupid. Especially all the gangsters. On top of that, the persuasion system is another example where the game takes you out of the experience and puts you into stare-at-HUD mode. All you do is stare at the personality trait lights and you're golden. Then again, if you were to actually look at the character faces and models during a conversation, you'd break out laughing because they all have Parkinson's. Literally everyone in the game is doing Artosis wiggles.
What kind of games are you playing? I admit I was like "Really?" when I heard Adam's batman voice, but I got used to it. My impression of the writing is it's fantastic. You can't take any line out of the game and call it poetry, and maybe some things might be stupid, but they never break the suspension of disbelief for me. I can ask for as much detail as I want, read as many articles as I want, and all of it feels real. I actually read every eBook and email I picked up. It's not like I just ran through the game to finish it as quickly as possible, I climbed around and explored everything I could and read tons of the text. The emails were fine, but the eBooks and item descriptions read like filler. I mean, technically they are, but it doesn't seem like there's a world foundation it's built upon. It seems like they're just thrown in after the fact. I think Giantbomb was making fun of it in one of their videos.
To be fair, there are extremely few games that do dialogue well, and I have been watching a lot of The Wire lately, so there's my bias for super high standards. The persuasion system makes me really pay attention to what someone is saying, and I am very careful about what I say because there will be consequences.
Why? The answer dialogues tell you which response is for Alpha, Beta and Omega and the Persuasion meter is pretty meaningless. You just get to the pheromones stage and pick the answer the blinking lights have been telling you to pick. The responses themselves aren't that well aligned with what they're supposed to represent and sometimes they left me scratching my head. Adam just reads too much like a dumb brute.
The script and story are good for video games. It's just one of those things like GTA4 where people are talking about it like it's artistic story telling, when it's really just good for its genre.
Crysis finished with an incredibly silly/generic story, but the gameplay was still really good and takes too much flak. And On_Slaught is right, HL2 and Ep. 2 really stand out as far as story telling goes in modern games. Not really fair to compare the gameplay since they're super linear, but presentation wise they're better imo. After patches, STALKER is probably the best modern FPS.
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On September 05 2011 09:48 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 09:18 Candadar wrote:On September 05 2011 08:49 Jibba wrote:On September 05 2011 07:37 Candadar wrote:On September 05 2011 04:50 Jibba wrote:On September 04 2011 23:27 cocoa_sg wrote:On September 03 2011 15:00 Jibba wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So some thoughts about the gaming, going through it on DX difficulty. The first time I tried stealth, but then I switched to combat and had more fun. Let me first say this is currently the GOTY, but I don't expect that to last when the heavy hitters come out later this year. This is still very much a console game and you can feel it in a number of different areas. They're mostly little things, but they add up to annoy me. Climbing, talking, inventory/sales menus, the cover system and a few other things. Sure they did some work to bring it to a mouse and keyboard (item bar, keypad password entrylol) but overall as a port, they really only did a decent job. A lot of people are still reporting input issues and the sensitivities really don't feel right until you tweak things. More than that, they just did a shitty job optimizing the game. Most highend setups seem to have no problems while some do, but for a game of this graphics level, performance should be better across the board. As for the graphics, they're really poor for a 2011 game. Don't mistake what I'm saying, the art direction is really cool and gives the game a good style but the graphics themselves, the nuts and bolts behind everything and the driving engine, are not good. We know it's UE3, but a lot of the game looks like it's from the gen1 Source engine. They talked a lot about tessellation and faces, but the faces look terrible. Adam is really the only one who looks alright, and the rest look worse in live action than they do in screenshots. Now that's a superficial complaint and some will argue that graphics shouldn't matter (although I disagree, for the purposes of immersion they absolutely do) but the bigger issue in my complaint of the graphics is what they weren't able to do. For a game that devoted a lot of attention to stealth play, there's a remarkable lack of decent lighting in the game and in fact, the lighting never really plays a role. It didn't necessarily need Splinter Cell perma-stealth in shadows, but a modern 2011 stealth game could be a whole lot better if it took advantage of dynamic lighting, and we know the UE3 is capable of it. Let's hope Thief 4 doesn't drop the ball. On to the stealth play itself and why I switched to combat- I just don't like it in this game. Let's ignore cloak for a minute, which while overpoweringly useful is just a weak design choice. Eidos essentially took the Arkham Asylum style of adventure game, which gives you an overwhelmingly useful HUD but detaches you from the game a bit. Because lighting doesn't matter, stealth basically boils down to following your radar and using cover to avoid LoS. The cover and LoS function in a kind of silly way, where you're just not going to get noticed if you press the cover button, and you just dodge around while looking at your radar instead of looking at the enemies, but it's basically a requirement because the stealth system is so simplistic. Once you get cloak, you largely sidestep the process and even sound stops mattering. In my opinion, switching back and forth between first and third person is actually less immersive than just being in third person the entire time. Another major deficiency in the stealth system are the lack of grabs. Take downs look cool in an Assassin's Creed kind of way (although I'm not a fan of going into movie-view) but they're also quite dumb. Not just dumb for the game, but dumb for Adam too. Grabbing and incapacitating a guy from the shadows or behind a box and pulling him away without anyone noticing is much more interesting than just stepping out and knocking him out/killing him in the middle of the room. Adam needs to learn some subtlety. That's the gist of why I stopped caring about stealth play. It's a lot of waiting while looking at my radar, which makes it seem a lot less like I'm in the game, and once you get decent cloak you can start being careless. Combat has been a lot more fun, but it has a few glaring weaknesses as well. First, the AI. We all know the AI is just wretched in this game. It's incredibly dumb, it's easy to trick and they're never going to do much to flush you out. The only difficulty in the game at Deus Ex level is the few amount of hits you can take, but if your aim is good you can easily take out two people before a shot is fired on you and if you've got enough silenced sniper rifle ammo, that number is infinite. I JUST HEADSHOTTED THE PERSON YOU'RE TALKING TO. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALARMED AND PACING AROUND SLOWLY. Then once you're spotted, everyone immediately knows where you are, including people just running into the room, and fires at your direction. Even then, once you learn how to pick them off one at a time through good angles, you won't really be in trouble. The second problem with combat is that the weapons suck. Granted, the weapons in DX1 weren't that great either (besides Dragon's Tooth) but it seems like it's just too easy to level up a weapon (especially 10mm) and stick with it the entire game. I guess that's the same in DX1 as well, but the gun specializations made it so that you still kept upgrading your weapons through augments, on top of the weapon enhancements. And that speaks to a weakness in the augmentation system as a whole. Most of them suck, or are so good and so cheap that you just take them. There just isn't that much choice because acquiring points isn't that hard, and the things worth taking are pretty obvious. At least in DX1, there were some important sacrifices to make so you felt a bit more unique. Also, besides Icarus and Typhoon, they're just too generic. Spending skill points to upgrade your inventory is just >.> Not even WoW would make you do that. As for the story, I mean... it's Deux Ex. The script and voice work is good in some areas, so-so in others. The bad guys in this game definitely aren't as interesting as DX1 though. I'm sure if you were to play DX1 after DXHR, you'd feel the same way about DX1's story that I do about DXHR's. Still a great story, just slightly less great the second time around. And it's also missing a Gunther. I know this is an extremely critical review, but I did still have fun playing it. It takes a lot longer than most other modern games so it definitely deserves credit for that, and the situations/gameplay definitely are interesting. It's not nearly as much of a "choice" game as people are making it out to be, as most things just come down to A or B and the minigames (conversation and hacking) are incredibly simple and easy once you get the right augments. I felt like it was a much bigger deal to make decisions in DX1, but to be honest, that might just be a rosy memory. So it's a fun, long FPS game. Borderline RPG-y, but usually not really. Certainly a great game by today's standards, I'm just let down that there's so many areas where it could be better and the fundamental limitation behind all of them (graphics, simplicity, immersion) are that it's a console game. Something like an action-Splinter Cell hybrid would've been more interesting to me. Seriously? Why would you be so biased against a game that is primarily made for consoles? Why not embrace both the PC and console platforms, like me, instead of giving fellow PC gamers a bad name (which they have had for a long time, what with piracy and the like)? Too much whining can really bring out a bad impression of people like you. You have played Assassin's Creed and Batman: Arkham Asylum before. Surprise, they were also made for consoles and then later distributed for Windows. In fact, they were ported over to the PC. There is nothing wrong or anything criminal with being a console player, myself included. They have amazing exclusives, especially the PS3, like the Uncharted series, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Red Dead Redemption, L.A. Noire, Dead Space and the like. Have you even heard of them? Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a very well-made game but has its flaws as well. Still, you cannot bottle it down to being a console limitation; that is just silly and biased. In recent years, developers have been deviating away from the PC platform for obvious reasons, and you are smart enough to know what they are, and yet you still have Witcher 2, Starcraft, and other PC exclusives to thank for. Battlefield 3 will also see a larger multiplayer presence on the PC platform compared to consoles. Do I ever complain about that? No. So instead, embrace both PC and console games as a way of life, will you? Stop whining, and putting the blame on consoles, and we will all get along, and eventually get a better impression of PC gamers as a more mature type. Thank you. =3 We have different expectations for what's a great game. Mentioning those other titles does nothing to change the fact that the game had to use simpler controls/mechanisms and simpler lighting/graphics to be console friendly. For the scope of a game like DX, these things were not sufficient. For something simpler like AC (which is a pretty mediocre series) and AA, it's fine. While I agree that this game has been heavily consolized -- come on. It still did a lot of things right. Instead of two weapon syndrome, you could have up to 10 on a hotbar. Instead of some shitty inventory system, it used a REALLY good one in my opinion. All the consolized shit (Objective markers, highlighting objectives, reticules, etc.) can be disabled. You can even change the fucking Field of View in the options. The graphics are essentially because the game was started being developed almost 4 years ago. So of course they won't be completely top notch and modern, but I still loved them. don't know about you, but this game looks absolutely gorgeous in DX11 and significantly better than consoles, so I don't know where you got that idea from. You could tell this game had to be cut down a bit for consoles, but come on -- you're overreacting. I mean, I'm genuinely curious on what you are thinking they left out in terms of controls or gameplay that makes this game heavily consolized that can't be disabled in 3 seconds in the game menu. I made a huge post about it on the other page. And these are not bad graphics because it was started in 2007. The programming didn't begin in 2007 and even in 2007 games looked better than this (after all, the king of the engines came out in 2007.) Even within the game, there's examples of decently high detailed areas like Adam's apartment (although the UE3 recreation looks better.) The rest of the game looks 1/2 that good, though. Even the inventory system is lacking because the inputs are clunky (which is a problem with every dialogue screen in the game, including hacking/chat - the selection box has to be reselected to work) and you can't do simple things like right click. EDIT: I know I sound mad as fuck, I'm not. I just come off as a bit hostile when I'm debating. Hold the fuck up. The UE3 engine? You know, that engine that every console game ever since the beginning of ever uses and is the tell-tale give away of a console port? You think that looks better than this? I'm actually a bit offended by that I think that UE3 rendering of it is fucking trash, in all seriousness. The windows are literally white, that's bloom to the maximum. The lighting is also very meh compared to the original version. Not everything has to be photo-realistic. I'll be the first to make fun of someone who is saying that their game with terrible graphics is just a fancy art style (*cough* Dragon Age 2 *cough*), but this is genuinely something that can be attributed to that. Secondly, a clunky inventory system (I didn't find it clunky at all?) does not make it a shitty consolized trash game. And I never had that selection box problem in my two playthroughs of the game. Let me make it clear again that I know and accept that this game has been reduced in quality due to consoles. That the graphics could have been more detailed if it weren't for consoles restrictions. That perhaps a lot more depth could have been added. It's overbloomed, but a dynamic lighting system built into the stealth would improve the game dramatically. As it is, stealth is extremely simple and easy to "game." There's plenty of weakness in UE3 games but that's on the developers, not the engine itself. And keep in mind, that was just an amateur recreation. I need to find a better way to describe how the menus work. It's designed to be pointed to, and then A-> drop menu -> A. If you've ever played around with Jamella's, it should've been like that (obviously different look, but same essential UI.) Out of all the game inventories I've used, it feels the worst. When you move, it always moves from the top left corner. No right clicking. If a new menu option pops up under your mouse, you can't click it until you move the mouse a bit. These are all small traces. Show nested quote +However, that does not make this a console port. The hacking is the most fun hacking mini-game I have played in a LONG fucking time. Especially once you start reaching Level 5 terminals, strategy really starts to come into play with how you use your buffs, your reinforcing, your paths to the finish, etc. Really? Hacking was EXTREMELY easy and fairly simple, in my opinion. Although it was slightly more complicated, it was definitely easier than the pipe mini-game in Bioshock. If you're using a controller (and thus activating nodes takes longer to do), I can see how it would be challenging. With a mouse, and quickly clicking through several nodes at once, it becomes extremely easy with a couple points in Stealth and gathering up Nukes/Worms is easy. Show nested quote +The only thing in this game that can be slightly attributed to "console trash" is the takedown system, but even that is extremely balanced in my opinion with the high energy cost and only one of your bars able to regenerate naturally. The takedown system is one of the worst parts of the game, in my opinion. Like I explained before, not only is it fucking stupid to knock a guy out in the middle of the room instead of grabbing him and dragging him away discretely (think Splinter Cell), but it's also just a cheesy cinematic. The fact that it requires energy is stupid too. The game might actually be better and allow for more playstyles if it didn't have an energy cost. You mean the 10mm show? Most of the other weapons are so-so, but the pistols are completely overpowered and the Typhoon trivializes bosses. Combined with the poor AI and there really isn't much gunplay to be had. If you go the combat rifle route, it's a bit more interesting but then you're forced into the cover system and spraying back at enemies. Wholeheartedly disagree. Adam's Christian Bale Batman impression gets old pretty quickly and the writing isn't that good. It's better than SC2's writing but that's not an achievement. The voices themselves are fine, but the things they're saying are stupid. Especially all the gangsters. On top of that, the persuasion system is another example where the game takes you out of the experience and puts you into stare-at-HUD mode. All you do is stare at the personality trait lights and you're golden. Then again, if you were to actually look at the character faces and models during a conversation, you'd break out laughing because they all have Parkinson's. Literally everyone in the game is doing Artosis wiggles. Show nested quote +and the graphics are pretty damn good for having to be stuffed onto consoles as well. There's my point.
The 10mm is fine, the problem isn't with the pistol it's that headshots kill in 1 shot no matter what. It's realistic but it turns into duck behind cover->line up reticle with face->pop out of cover and right click->pop back into cover-> repeat
Gunplay isn't fun when it's basically a point-and-click show with a skin over it.
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My impression of the writing is it's fantastic. You can't take any line out of the game and call it poetry, and maybe some things might be stupid, but they never break the suspension of disbelief for me. I can ask for as much detail as I want, read as many articles as I want, and all of it feels real. The writers have brought the world to life. The persuasion system makes me really pay attention to what someone is saying, and I am very careful about what I say because there will be consequences.
I agree. I'd also like to say that what sold the narrative part of the game to me was the very first cutscene with adam and reed in her office. The posture, voice intonation, movement and pacing was better than most movie acting I've run across (except for the very first couple of lines which are a bit stilted) Nothing else in the game gets to that level, unfortunately, but it sets the scene and made me look at everything else in a positive light. I also love how even right at the start, every bit of dialogue has meaning, when you're walking through the labs with reed, all that shit that sounds like meaningless jargon is massive plot foreshadowing if you have the brain to remember it and tie it in to other stuff. There's so much information in the game you *can* figure out what's going on in advance, and it informs your game choices, particularly, for example
+ Show Spoiler +not buying the "oh hey chip malfunction, guess you better get that replaced with the new illuminati approved one, eh, eh..."
Typhoon x 2 + 1 Revolver shot. Kills bosses on hard mode.
Laser Rifle/Gun Kills final boss in seconds.
I actually quite like this possibility, that the developers leave a 'get out of jail free' card in boss fights that if you're observant enough to realise mission parameters (get to boss behind a pane of invincible glass) and put two and two together (oh hey I have a gun that shoots through glass) you can do it the 'easy' way. It actually makes you feel like the movie heroes who, faced with an impossible situation, exploit that one ridiculous weakness perfectly. Of course, if you just luck out and accidentally stumble on it I imagine it feels a little jarring, but ensuring that doesn't happen generally involves removing choice all together, which is so anti-DE I can't even begin to explain how bad an idea that is.
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United States22883 Posts
I would say that armor piercing is an overpowered mechanic in every game it's ever been put into. They needed to do something else to make rifles worthwhile, and silencers not so critical. Perhaps don't even give the 10mm a laser sight (HSing down ironsights is pretty easy as well.)
Look at it this way as far as gunplay goes: it would be really stupid in an online DM mode. It's like the Halo 1 pistol.
I think they could've gotten really creative with the weapon mods, but instead they went as generic as possible.
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On September 05 2011 10:46 Jibba wrote:
I would say that armor piercing is an overpowered mechanic in every game it's ever been put into. They needed to do something else to make rifles worthwhile, and silencers not so critical. Perhaps don't even give the 10mm a laser sight (HSing down ironsights is pretty easy as well.)
Look at it this way as far as gunplay goes: it would be really stupid in an online DM mode. It's like the Halo 1 pistol.
I think they could've gotten really creative with the weapon mods, but instead they went as generic as possible.
I agree to an extent, yet again.
I felt some of the mods, such as the tracker for the Crossbow and the Bullet-Homing for the Heavy MG were really nifty.
One thing I like to keep in mind is that Deus Ex never was about super revolutionary creativity, but was about having multiple ways to approach a given situation with every one being just as legitimate and useful as the other.
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I liked the Halo 1 pistol though, that thing was awesome.
ofc the difference being that in Halo everyone had the pistol
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Just finished the game.
I liked it quite a lot but i can not close my eyes to the flaws. The game mechanics have such a huge potential (Just like Vampire: Bloodlines or Thief), but the game doesn't really give me a challenge. I played mostly Stealth, but the stupid or simplistic AI made me sad after a while.
I don't like the console game feeling at all, but there've been worse games in that regard.
The story is somewhat strange, i think it was written in a strange way, but it certainly wasn't an desaster like SC2 or the Modern Warfare games.
Well overall i'd give the game a 7,5 / 10 because it felt good for the most part but it never reached the full potential.
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Jibba, I am sorry but I loved adam's voice, it's actually one of my fav part of the game, reminded me a lot of deus ex because he also had that stone cold voice.
I have a completely different taste in games than you:
crysis was boring for me, it was more or less abusing physic fun sandbox type of game. But without real story or progress, it just felt dull after a while.
witcher 2 combat annoyed me a lot, and after a while, all the quests felt like repeated again and again, the some attack's hit detection feed back with the sword also felt really lacking.
I can only agree with you on stalker
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Jibba man, your standards for video games are way too high LOL. At first I was sorta taking your criticisms seriously but then you said GTA4 didn't have a good story so I knew you're probably one of those people who points out the negativity in everything. Otherwise you wouldn't point out that GTA4's story is only good for video games, as if it's not incredibly obvious that books and movies have the potential to tell much more powerful stories than video games. You are basically saying "this is how good DXHR, and video games in general, would be in a perfect world." I mean, saying the weapon mods are generic? The takedown cinematics are cheesey? Wut? I thought both of those things were great - they even have a lock-on mod for the combat rifle, and they have multiple takedown cinematics, all of which are pretty damn cool. Actually the fact that there even are cinematics for takedowns is pretty damn cool. I think you need to lower your standards in general or you are going to be pretty disappointed in life, bro.
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On September 05 2011 15:13 Doodsmack wrote:
Jibba man, your standards for video games are way too high LOL. At first I was sorta taking your criticisms seriously but then you said GTA4 didn't have a good story so I knew you're probably one of those people who points out the negativity in everything. Otherwise you wouldn't point out that GTA4's story is only good for video games, as if it's not incredibly obvious that books and movies have the potential to tell much more powerful stories than video games. You are basically saying "this is how good DXHR, and video games in general, would be in a perfect world." I mean, saying the weapon mods are generic? The takedown cinematics are cheesey? Wut? I thought both of those things were great - they even have a lock-on mod for the combat rifle, and they have multiple takedown cinematics, all of which are pretty damn cool. Actually the fact that there even are cinematics for takedowns is pretty damn cool. I think you need to lower your standards in general or you are going to be pretty disappointed in life, bro.
Don't give me that jibba jabba
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On September 05 2011 15:13 Doodsmack wrote:
Jibba man, your standards for video games are way too high LOL. At first I was sorta taking your criticisms seriously but then you said GTA4 didn't have a good story so I knew you're probably one of those people who points out the negativity in everything. Otherwise you wouldn't point out that GTA4's story is only good for video games, as if it's not incredibly obvious that books and movies have the potential to tell much more powerful stories than video games. You are basically saying "this is how good DXHR, and video games in general, would be in a perfect world." I mean, saying the weapon mods are generic? The takedown cinematics are cheesey? Wut? I thought both of those things were great - they even have a lock-on mod for the combat rifle, and they have multiple takedown cinematics, all of which are pretty damn cool. Actually the fact that there even are cinematics for takedowns is pretty damn cool. I think you need to lower your standards in general or you are going to be pretty disappointed in life, bro.
What?!? Video games allow the storyteller, the developers, to fully immerse the audience, player. How is this better then a move in which the audience has no interaction at all? Books are a little trickier because people have been writing books/ telling stories in a book-esque fashion for literally thousands of years, so they have more time to learn how to tell their story in their medium. Video games are, imo, a extremely unexplored story telling medium that isn't being really developed because gameplay itself is being more focused on in games, which isn't really a bad thing but it does hinder ones ability to tell a story if they are still figuring out the gameplay.
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On September 05 2011 04:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 23:27 cocoa_sg wrote:On September 03 2011 15:00 Jibba wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So some thoughts about the gaming, going through it on DX difficulty. The first time I tried stealth, but then I switched to combat and had more fun. Let me first say this is currently the GOTY, but I don't expect that to last when the heavy hitters come out later this year. This is still very much a console game and you can feel it in a number of different areas. They're mostly little things, but they add up to annoy me. Climbing, talking, inventory/sales menus, the cover system and a few other things. Sure they did some work to bring it to a mouse and keyboard (item bar, keypad password entrylol) but overall as a port, they really only did a decent job. A lot of people are still reporting input issues and the sensitivities really don't feel right until you tweak things. More than that, they just did a shitty job optimizing the game. Most highend setups seem to have no problems while some do, but for a game of this graphics level, performance should be better across the board. As for the graphics, they're really poor for a 2011 game. Don't mistake what I'm saying, the art direction is really cool and gives the game a good style but the graphics themselves, the nuts and bolts behind everything and the driving engine, are not good. We know it's UE3, but a lot of the game looks like it's from the gen1 Source engine. They talked a lot about tessellation and faces, but the faces look terrible. Adam is really the only one who looks alright, and the rest look worse in live action than they do in screenshots. Now that's a superficial complaint and some will argue that graphics shouldn't matter (although I disagree, for the purposes of immersion they absolutely do) but the bigger issue in my complaint of the graphics is what they weren't able to do. For a game that devoted a lot of attention to stealth play, there's a remarkable lack of decent lighting in the game and in fact, the lighting never really plays a role. It didn't necessarily need Splinter Cell perma-stealth in shadows, but a modern 2011 stealth game could be a whole lot better if it took advantage of dynamic lighting, and we know the UE3 is capable of it. Let's hope Thief 4 doesn't drop the ball. On to the stealth play itself and why I switched to combat- I just don't like it in this game. Let's ignore cloak for a minute, which while overpoweringly useful is just a weak design choice. Eidos essentially took the Arkham Asylum style of adventure game, which gives you an overwhelmingly useful HUD but detaches you from the game a bit. Because lighting doesn't matter, stealth basically boils down to following your radar and using cover to avoid LoS. The cover and LoS function in a kind of silly way, where you're just not going to get noticed if you press the cover button, and you just dodge around while looking at your radar instead of looking at the enemies, but it's basically a requirement because the stealth system is so simplistic. Once you get cloak, you largely sidestep the process and even sound stops mattering. In my opinion, switching back and forth between first and third person is actually less immersive than just being in third person the entire time. Another major deficiency in the stealth system are the lack of grabs. Take downs look cool in an Assassin's Creed kind of way (although I'm not a fan of going into movie-view) but they're also quite dumb. Not just dumb for the game, but dumb for Adam too. Grabbing and incapacitating a guy from the shadows or behind a box and pulling him away without anyone noticing is much more interesting than just stepping out and knocking him out/killing him in the middle of the room. Adam needs to learn some subtlety. That's the gist of why I stopped caring about stealth play. It's a lot of waiting while looking at my radar, which makes it seem a lot less like I'm in the game, and once you get decent cloak you can start being careless. Combat has been a lot more fun, but it has a few glaring weaknesses as well. First, the AI. We all know the AI is just wretched in this game. It's incredibly dumb, it's easy to trick and they're never going to do much to flush you out. The only difficulty in the game at Deus Ex level is the few amount of hits you can take, but if your aim is good you can easily take out two people before a shot is fired on you and if you've got enough silenced sniper rifle ammo, that number is infinite. I JUST HEADSHOTTED THE PERSON YOU'RE TALKING TO. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALARMED AND PACING AROUND SLOWLY. Then once you're spotted, everyone immediately knows where you are, including people just running into the room, and fires at your direction. Even then, once you learn how to pick them off one at a time through good angles, you won't really be in trouble. The second problem with combat is that the weapons suck. Granted, the weapons in DX1 weren't that great either (besides Dragon's Tooth) but it seems like it's just too easy to level up a weapon (especially 10mm) and stick with it the entire game. I guess that's the same in DX1 as well, but the gun specializations made it so that you still kept upgrading your weapons through augments, on top of the weapon enhancements. And that speaks to a weakness in the augmentation system as a whole. Most of them suck, or are so good and so cheap that you just take them. There just isn't that much choice because acquiring points isn't that hard, and the things worth taking are pretty obvious. At least in DX1, there were some important sacrifices to make so you felt a bit more unique. Also, besides Icarus and Typhoon, they're just too generic. Spending skill points to upgrade your inventory is just >.> Not even WoW would make you do that. As for the story, I mean... it's Deux Ex. The script and voice work is good in some areas, so-so in others. The bad guys in this game definitely aren't as interesting as DX1 though. I'm sure if you were to play DX1 after DXHR, you'd feel the same way about DX1's story that I do about DXHR's. Still a great story, just slightly less great the second time around. And it's also missing a Gunther. I know this is an extremely critical review, but I did still have fun playing it. It takes a lot longer than most other modern games so it definitely deserves credit for that, and the situations/gameplay definitely are interesting. It's not nearly as much of a "choice" game as people are making it out to be, as most things just come down to A or B and the minigames (conversation and hacking) are incredibly simple and easy once you get the right augments. I felt like it was a much bigger deal to make decisions in DX1, but to be honest, that might just be a rosy memory. So it's a fun, long FPS game. Borderline RPG-y, but usually not really. Certainly a great game by today's standards, I'm just let down that there's so many areas where it could be better and the fundamental limitation behind all of them (graphics, simplicity, immersion) are that it's a console game. Something like an action-Splinter Cell hybrid would've been more interesting to me. Seriously? Why would you be so biased against a game that is primarily made for consoles? Why not embrace both the PC and console platforms, like me, instead of giving fellow PC gamers a bad name (which they have had for a long time, what with piracy and the like)? Too much whining can really bring out a bad impression of people like you. You have played Assassin's Creed and Batman: Arkham Asylum before. Surprise, they were also made for consoles and then later distributed for Windows. In fact, they were ported over to the PC. There is nothing wrong or anything criminal with being a console player, myself included. They have amazing exclusives, especially the PS3, like the Uncharted series, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Red Dead Redemption, L.A. Noire, Dead Space and the like. Have you even heard of them? Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a very well-made game but has its flaws as well. Still, you cannot bottle it down to being a console limitation; that is just silly and biased. In recent years, developers have been deviating away from the PC platform for obvious reasons, and you are smart enough to know what they are, and yet you still have Witcher 2, Starcraft, and other PC exclusives to thank for. Battlefield 3 will also see a larger multiplayer presence on the PC platform compared to consoles. Do I ever complain about that? No. So instead, embrace both PC and console games as a way of life, will you? Stop whining, and putting the blame on consoles, and we will all get along, and eventually get a better impression of PC gamers as a more mature type. Thank you. =3 We have different expectations for what's a great game. Mentioning those other titles does nothing to change the fact that the game had to use simpler controls/mechanisms and simpler lighting/graphics to be console friendly. For the scope of a game like DX, these things were not sufficient. For something simpler like AC (which is a pretty mediocre series) and AA, it's fine.
You will have to pardon me if my post was quite harsh on you. I just have a negative view of a sublet of people known as PC elitists. Though, the truth lately is that game developers have been pushing far into the console market, and trying to find the best middle ground between both the PC and console worlds. So if we have to make do with a less-than-perfect game that is Deus Ex 3, I would not mind, whether it is on the PC or consoles (in my case, PS3). But for you, I understand if you have higher standards. A PC will always be superior to consoles due to its flexibility when it comes to upgrading parts, while consoles have their advantages in not having to adhere to different gaming specifications for different games but rather playing out as a gaming platform, one and only.
So okay, it is fine if you are disappointed with the dumbing down of some elements in DX3. It is still a fun game, is it not? I thoroughly enjoyed it while getting the Foxiest of the Hounds and Pacifist trophies, while on Deus Ex difficulty (virtual goals that you can challenge yourself with - not tripping a single alarm and not killing a single person respectively throughout the whole game), and that was an amazing experience. I was not that bothered by the lack of delicate lighting, less-realistic facial animations and imperfect AI; what mattered was that I was finally playing a Deus Ex game after all those years!
I still hope for Witcher 2 to come to consoles, you know. I envy you for it. I scrapped my PC a long time ago, and my laptop is suited for watching all things Starcraft, but not high-end enough to handle a fine game like Witcher 2. =3
On September 05 2011 04:58 Tarias wrote:I feel like you don't understand his point. He isn't saying consoles sucks, or console gamers suck, and he isn't blaming every flaw in the game on the fact that it's made for consoles. He's merely saying that the fact this gamed is dumbed down a bit for consoles dissapoint him. Weither or not the dumbing down is a good thing varries per person, but you can't really deny the fact that it is dumbed down.. I also want to point out that piracy is not a PC exclusive either, there is plenty of piracy on consoles
I may have misunderstood his point, like you said. Still, 'dumbed down' is a pretty strict term to be using here, do you not think? Either way, it does not bother me that much.
Also, it may be true that piracy also exists on consoles, I cannot deny that. But it is much more rampant on the PC, no?
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United States22883 Posts
On September 05 2011 15:13 Doodsmack wrote:
Jibba man, your standards for video games are way too high LOL. At first I was sorta taking your criticisms seriously but then you said GTA4 didn't have a good story so I knew you're probably one of those people who points out the negativity in everything. Otherwise you wouldn't point out that GTA4's story is only good for video games, as if it's not incredibly obvious that books and movies have the potential to tell much more powerful stories than video games. It's the exact opposite. Good writers just don't work on video games yet. That's why someone like Metzen can be considered a premier writer in the world of video games. As for the rest, I think I'm better off with standards that are too high than the other way around, broseidon.
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