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On October 10 2016 08:43 Belisarius wrote:
It missed on every front.
For hardcore players, there is no endgame.
For casuals, the basic interactions are so frustrating that they quit by the mid teens/20s.
The only people who really stick around are the collectors, and even those tap out once they finish their dex.
And the worst part is that all of those things were obvious within a week of release. They fundamentally misunderstood what drew people to their game, and how to keep those people around.
It's made almost 500 million dollars since release and they've shown they clearly weren't expecting a hit on that level. So it's a little hard to say it's missed or anything, though there's certainly a lot of untapped potential there.
Also I think they're in a pretty ok position. Like they can take this time to rework & refine the gameplay mechanics with player feedback and then release the legendaries and/or Gen 2 and try to spike the user base again.
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On October 09 2016 08:22 Rehio wrote:
Well, yeah, they said they'd changed that.
so what, I can see 145 without catching any? hmm
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Had another Dragonite show up on the tracker this weekend. Had to be the weekend after the scanners went down XD
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On October 10 2016 10:58 mordek wrote:
Had another Dragonite show up on the tracker this weekend. Had to be the weekend after the scanners went down XD I know how you feel.. had a Snorlax sighting today and couldn't find him. Snorlax hardly ever appears around me.
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I'm wishing Niantic would add an official in-game tracker sooner rather than later. I don't necessarily agree with their decision to remove 3rd-party trackers, but I can understand why they are doing it.
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On October 10 2016 08:43 Belisarius wrote:
It missed on every front.
For hardcore players, there is no endgame.
I disagree. The endgame is gyms. It may have its flaws, but going around in a group of ppl taking down enemy "megagyms" and making them lvl 10 of your own colour is quite cool. We're in an all out war with team Instinct atm. Sadly they're almost certainly cheating (confirmed sharing accounts between 7 of them, probably spoofing too but not yet confirmed that).
I'm closing on lvl 32 and no signs of burnout yet, I've lost interest in Pokedex completion though, I'll walk it out with buddies and hatch a Chansey one day.
But the endgame is perfectly fine.
Of course this relies quite heavily on having a team that competes with yours, if you dominate the city/get dominated, that's another story...
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On October 10 2016 14:12 WindWolf wrote:I'm wishing Niantic would add an official in-game tracker sooner rather than later. I don't necessarily agree with their decision to remove 3rd-party trackers, but I can understand why they are doing it.
Doubt saving the server bandwidth was the issue. Offering no tracking solution while disabling the API is weak.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CrgXx9w.jpg)
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On October 10 2016 15:57 CorsairHero wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 14:12 WindWolf wrote:I'm wishing Niantic would add an official in-game tracker sooner rather than later. I don't necessarily agree with their decision to remove 3rd-party trackers, but I can understand why they are doing it. Doubt saving the server bandwidth was the issue. Offering no tracking solution while disabling the API is weak.
Why doubt it?
I believe they had to poll the server every 3 seconds to have a somewhat accurate footprint update. And this for every pokemon in a 200 meter radius of every single player.
Considering the amount of players at launch, that's pretty brutal...
Currently it's polled every 10 seconds.
With the amount of players leaving, the previous system could probably make a comeback, but they'd rather save money by removing some servers I'm sure 
Having a tracking system that fails as soon as the game gets popular again isn't the best solution.
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On October 10 2016 16:35 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 15:57 CorsairHero wrote:On October 10 2016 14:12 WindWolf wrote:I'm wishing Niantic would add an official in-game tracker sooner rather than later. I don't necessarily agree with their decision to remove 3rd-party trackers, but I can understand why they are doing it. Doubt saving the server bandwidth was the issue. Offering no tracking solution while disabling the API is weak. Why doubt it? I believe they had to poll the server every 3 seconds to have a somewhat accurate footprint update. And this for every pokemon in a 200 meter radius of every single player. Considering the amount of players at launch, that's pretty brutal... Currently it's polled every 10 seconds. With the amount of players leaving, the previous system could probably make a comeback, but they'd rather save money by removing some servers I'm sure Having a tracking system that fails as soon as the game gets popular again isn't the best solution.
What's your take on the reason they don't have footprints with the current less frequent updates? Would be much, much easier to find anything nearby with that...
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On October 10 2016 18:27 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 16:35 Laurens wrote:On October 10 2016 15:57 CorsairHero wrote:On October 10 2016 14:12 WindWolf wrote:I'm wishing Niantic would add an official in-game tracker sooner rather than later. I don't necessarily agree with their decision to remove 3rd-party trackers, but I can understand why they are doing it. Doubt saving the server bandwidth was the issue. Offering no tracking solution while disabling the API is weak. Why doubt it? I believe they had to poll the server every 3 seconds to have a somewhat accurate footprint update. And this for every pokemon in a 200 meter radius of every single player. Considering the amount of players at launch, that's pretty brutal... Currently it's polled every 10 seconds. With the amount of players leaving, the previous system could probably make a comeback, but they'd rather save money by removing some servers I'm sure Having a tracking system that fails as soon as the game gets popular again isn't the best solution. What's your take on the reason they don't have footprints with the current less frequent updates? Would be much, much easier to find anything nearby with that...
Idk. It'd be less accurate but I personally wouldn't mind. Better than having no footprints at all.
I guess they are still working on the SF tracker, even though it's been working over there for 2 months..
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On October 10 2016 15:47 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 08:43 Belisarius wrote:
It missed on every front.
For hardcore players, there is no endgame.
I disagree. The endgame is gyms. ... But the endgame is perfectly fine. Of course this relies quite heavily on having a team that competes with yours, if you dominate the city/get dominated, that's another story... That's a pretty weak endgame. I'd say nonexistent. It's exactly like the very beginning of the game at level 5, with no differences. The content is shallow. Tap, tap, swipe, over and over with no changes. There is very little depth to it. Silph road has datamined a huge amount of information which is definitely impressive. But meaningful content is just not there.
The meta is Dragonite-Snorlax-Lapras-Vaporeon-Exeggutor. You can argue that over 100 are essentially worthless. (why are some of the coolest / rarest pokemon in the game strictly worse than common comparisons? Vaporeon >> blastoise, arcanine >> charizard, exeggcutor >> venusaur).
The in-game reward from taking a level 10 gym is very low compared to the effort required which is why many areas are stagnating with no gym turnover for several weeks in a row.
You may be happy with it now which is cool and I wish I could say the same. The game was essentially release in alpha, so the endgame content they had may have had planned is not in the game.
Playing with other players tends to make it a lot more fun, to the point that it can be fun without an endgame. Having fun playing with organized teams does not equal meaningful endgame content present.
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On October 10 2016 23:55 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 15:47 Laurens wrote:On October 10 2016 08:43 Belisarius wrote:
It missed on every front.
For hardcore players, there is no endgame.
I disagree. The endgame is gyms. ... But the endgame is perfectly fine. Of course this relies quite heavily on having a team that competes with yours, if you dominate the city/get dominated, that's another story... That's a pretty weak endgame. I'd say nonexistent. It's exactly like the very beginning of the game at level 5, with no differences. The content is shallow. Tap, tap, swipe, over and over with no changes. There is very little depth to it. Silph road has datamined a huge amount of information which is definitely impressive. But meaningful content is just not there. The meta is Dragonite-Snorlax-Lapras-Vaporeon-Exeggutor. You can argue that over 100 are essentially worthless. (why are some of the coolest / rarest pokemon in the game strictly worse than common comparisons? Vaporeon >> blastoise, arcanine >> charizard, exeggcutor >> venusaur). The in-game reward from taking a level 10 gym is very low compared to the effort required which is why many areas are stagnating with no gym turnover for several weeks in a row. You may be happy with it now which is cool and I wish I could say the same. The game was essentially release in alpha, so the endgame content they had may have had planned is not in the game. Playing with other players tends to make it a lot more fun, to the point that it can be fun without an endgame. Having fun playing with organized teams does not equal meaningful endgame content present.
I'm not sure what kind of meaningful endgame content you are expecting from a mobile AR game. Raids? For me the point of Pokemon Go is to go outside and make new friends, and it's pretty great at that.
My personal endgame currently is staying in 10+ gyms at all times, and that's a major challenge even at lvl 31. Though again, this relies on competition between teams, which not every city has.
Ingress' endgame doesn't go much further than Pokemon GO so I wouldn't expect any updates on that front.
The legendaries might be released as bosses eventually, dunno if that qualifies for endgame. I'm honestly not sure what you expect as endgame for a mobile game.
with regards to your pokemon, those 3 duos you listed are very close to each other in terms of BST in the "real" games. In fact Arcanine is 20 points above Charizard and would likely have higher CP than him no matter which formula you use. How would you fix that? Add an arbitrary "coolness" factor to the formula? xD Fun fact: Arcanine was initially going to be a legendary pokemon, and I personally find him cooler than Charizard, no issues here.
There are some pokemon who get shafted by the CP formula, but Blastoise/Venusaur/Charizard are fine. Their ATK and DEF stats don't get screwed, and they have access to some of the best movesets. Their position in pokemon go is pretty much equal to their position in the main games.
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On October 11 2016 01:39 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2016 23:55 calgar wrote:On October 10 2016 15:47 Laurens wrote:On October 10 2016 08:43 Belisarius wrote:
It missed on every front.
For hardcore players, there is no endgame.
I disagree. The endgame is gyms. ... But the endgame is perfectly fine. Of course this relies quite heavily on having a team that competes with yours, if you dominate the city/get dominated, that's another story... That's a pretty weak endgame. I'd say nonexistent. It's exactly like the very beginning of the game at level 5, with no differences. The content is shallow. Tap, tap, swipe, over and over with no changes. There is very little depth to it. Silph road has datamined a huge amount of information which is definitely impressive. But meaningful content is just not there. The meta is Dragonite-Snorlax-Lapras-Vaporeon-Exeggutor. You can argue that over 100 are essentially worthless. (why are some of the coolest / rarest pokemon in the game strictly worse than common comparisons? Vaporeon >> blastoise, arcanine >> charizard, exeggcutor >> venusaur). The in-game reward from taking a level 10 gym is very low compared to the effort required which is why many areas are stagnating with no gym turnover for several weeks in a row. You may be happy with it now which is cool and I wish I could say the same. The game was essentially release in alpha, so the endgame content they had may have had planned is not in the game. Playing with other players tends to make it a lot more fun, to the point that it can be fun without an endgame. Having fun playing with organized teams does not equal meaningful endgame content present. I'm not sure what kind of meaningful endgame content you are expecting from a mobile AR game. Raids? For me the point of Pokemon Go is to go outside and make new friends, and it's pretty great at that. Ingress' endgame doesn't go much further than Pokemon GO so I wouldn't expect any updates on that front. The legendaries might be released as bosses eventually, dunno if that qualifies for endgame. I'm honestly not sure what you expect as endgame for a mobile game. I don't expect any kind of endgame. I understand that they released the game well before they felt ready and before they had time to introduce many desired features.
I agree that going outside and making friends is a major point and they succeeded very well in that regard.
I feel my original point stands that there is no endgame for hardcore players. Players can try to come up with their own like pokedex completion, badges, owning X number of gyms, obtaining 100% IV perfect movesets, etc. but that's in lieu of endgame content existing.
I disagree and would expect updates on that front, however, simply because they have hinted at the fact that they have a huge amount of content planned and upcoming.
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Well I hope you are right of course, more endgame content would be great  Perhaps someone who plays Ingress more than me can comment on the endgame there, I didn't get that involved.
I feel my original point stands that there is no endgame for hardcore players. Players can try to come up with their own like pokedex completion, badges, owning X number of gyms, obtaining 100% IV perfect movesets, etc. but that's in lieu of endgame content existing.
Here I'm still not sure what you would want as endgame content. Obviously it's not your job to design Niantic's game but maybe you have some suggestions?
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the endgame is completing your pokedex. for hardcore players, the endgame is using scanners to complete your 'dex too fast, and then shitting up forums complaining about the game lacking an endgame (just like every game it seems).
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On that note, I caught a Chansey today (without scanner!), only Tangela + ~300 buddy kms left.
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^ I agree, the endgame for me is gyms and trying to hold 10 everyday. But to do this I need high CP 2500+ pokemon, and I only power up ones with 85+ IV and good movesets, so need to do a lot of farming/hatching eggs. it's a long-term grind which I enjoy.
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On October 11 2016 01:56 Laurens wrote:Well I hope you are right of course, more endgame content would be great Perhaps someone who plays Ingress more than me can comment on the endgame there, I didn't get that involved. Show nested quote +I feel my original point stands that there is no endgame for hardcore players. Players can try to come up with their own like pokedex completion, badges, owning X number of gyms, obtaining 100% IV perfect movesets, etc. but that's in lieu of endgame content existing. Here I'm still not sure what you would want as endgame. Obviously it's not your job to design Niantic's game but maybe you have some suggestions? Well, I guess it's kind of tricky because you have the inherent problem of most of your userbase being extremely casual and hardcore players being a small minority. How do you justify major features / content that will be enjoyed by only a small percentage of players? I think naxxramas 60 in WoW is a good example of what can go wrong. You have to walk a very fine line so I understand the issue is difficult.
As far as I know some sort of tracker is going to return at some point. Type-specific lures are on the way as well. These are good steps forward. I'm definitely no game designer so I doubt my ideas are going to be amazing. Having said that, here are a couple of thoughts.
I think an important point for creating a satisfying endgame is deepening options and customization. People have mentioned TMs as a solution to great pokemon with great IVs having terrible moves. Bite gyarados case in point. I haven't thought this through deeply but it sounds like it has potential. How about more character customization? Cosmetic rewards for certain achievements like hats, badges, etc. Nice way to give bonuses to players without affecting power level or entering p2w territory.
I think gyms have a lot of unexplored potential. Different kinds of gyms, bonuses for holding one for x amount of time, bonus for taking down a gym that has been up for Y amount of time, like a bounty. How about a themed gym where certain type like psychic pokemon get +10% damage. This could make less-used pokemon stronger at certain gyms. These exact ideas might not be great but there are a lot of ways to make gyms more unique and individual rather than generic points that blend into each other.
Daily quests or weekly events have been talked about a lot. Region-wide team competition for catching pokemon, controlling gyms, etc. Catching allows everyone to participate regardless of level. Casual style daily quest like catch 10 pokemon can help casual players feel engaged.
Ideally at the end you have different pathways you can choose to spend your time in. A player like you, who likes gym battling, has different gyms to fight at, unique rewards, etc. Collectors can go for items/titles/cosmetics/etc. Play how you want to play essentially, with cool rewards for doing so.
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I'd be excited for any of those ideas being implemented.
Do lures do anything but spawn pidgey/weedle/rattata currently? My game experience shows my a lured pokestop is virtually the same as an un-lured one.
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EPT
