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Skaven legitimately are going to have trouble fighting against Lizardmen until they get their elite ranged units going. They have nothing else that can kill sauruses and feral dinos. Dark Elves don't have these problems. Dreadspears do a very good job holding the line, and Darkshards will kill anything. It's really easy.
On October 23 2017 03:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2017 02:30 xDaunt wrote:On October 22 2017 00:43 waffelz wrote:On October 22 2017 00:22 Manit0u wrote:
For best war machines don't look any further than Empire I haven't checked out how they compare in Warhammer 2, but as long as they didn’t get a huge buff and by war machine you mean cannons and such, the empire surely isn’t even close to dwarfs or skaven in my book. Empires cannons, batteries and mortars gets blown away by the dwarfen and skaven artillery. Per my previous posts, Empire artillery is hugely buffed in WH2. I suspect that Dwarven artillery received some upgrades, too, so it's tough to say where they stand relative to each other. However, I do think that it's clear that the runaway top three war machine / artillery factions are Dwarves, Skaven, and Empire in some order. For best cavalry, I think it's Bretonnia, Empire, and VC. This isn't to say that other factions don't have high end cavalry, but those three factions are the ones who are going to be dominating on the flanks with cav. For best ranged infantry, I'd pick Wood Elves (clear winner here), Dwarves, and Empire (handgunners). Their the factions with powerful enough ranged infantry that you can build armies around. Dark Elves get an honorable mention here. Where things get tricky is when you start comparing things like best line infantry and monsters. Lots of factions have very strong line infantry. If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably say that the top three are Warriors of Chaos, Norsca, and Dwarves (Ironbreakers rule), with severe apologies to Dark Elves, High Elves, and Lizardmen. I'm not even sure that I can do a good comparison of monsters. Lastly, there's magic. This is a bit tough to do as well without seeing how all of the other lores of magic have been buffed in WH2. However, I suspect that the factions with the strongest magic will be Empire, High Elves, and Dark Elves, with many other factions having strong options. Greenskin infantry is probably the best relative to its cost. They are ridiculously cheap for what they do. Ironbreaker are situationally fantastic but they cost a ton of cash and do very little damage. Now if it's about surviving and holding the line, they are of course absolute mvps. Also an important category to consider is flyers. I guess Bretonnia stomps everyone, but several factions (vampires, HE...) can field obscenely powerful flying goon squads.
Yeah, the considerations switch up quite a bit when you introduce budgeting as a concept (like in MP). Orks definitely look comparatively better under those conditions. I still think that they're behind Warriors of Chaos and Norsca, though. Probably Lizardmen, too.
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On October 23 2017 07:22 xDaunt wrote:Skaven legitimately are going to have trouble fighting against Lizardmen until they get their elite ranged units going. They have nothing else that can kill sauruses and feral dinos. Dark Elves don't have these problems. Dreadspears do a very good job holding the line, and Darkshards will kill anything. It's really easy. Show nested quote +On October 23 2017 03:31 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 22 2017 02:30 xDaunt wrote:On October 22 2017 00:43 waffelz wrote:On October 22 2017 00:22 Manit0u wrote:
For best war machines don't look any further than Empire I haven't checked out how they compare in Warhammer 2, but as long as they didn’t get a huge buff and by war machine you mean cannons and such, the empire surely isn’t even close to dwarfs or skaven in my book. Empires cannons, batteries and mortars gets blown away by the dwarfen and skaven artillery. Per my previous posts, Empire artillery is hugely buffed in WH2. I suspect that Dwarven artillery received some upgrades, too, so it's tough to say where they stand relative to each other. However, I do think that it's clear that the runaway top three war machine / artillery factions are Dwarves, Skaven, and Empire in some order. For best cavalry, I think it's Bretonnia, Empire, and VC. This isn't to say that other factions don't have high end cavalry, but those three factions are the ones who are going to be dominating on the flanks with cav. For best ranged infantry, I'd pick Wood Elves (clear winner here), Dwarves, and Empire (handgunners). Their the factions with powerful enough ranged infantry that you can build armies around. Dark Elves get an honorable mention here. Where things get tricky is when you start comparing things like best line infantry and monsters. Lots of factions have very strong line infantry. If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably say that the top three are Warriors of Chaos, Norsca, and Dwarves (Ironbreakers rule), with severe apologies to Dark Elves, High Elves, and Lizardmen. I'm not even sure that I can do a good comparison of monsters. Lastly, there's magic. This is a bit tough to do as well without seeing how all of the other lores of magic have been buffed in WH2. However, I suspect that the factions with the strongest magic will be Empire, High Elves, and Dark Elves, with many other factions having strong options. Greenskin infantry is probably the best relative to its cost. They are ridiculously cheap for what they do. Ironbreaker are situationally fantastic but they cost a ton of cash and do very little damage. Now if it's about surviving and holding the line, they are of course absolute mvps. Also an important category to consider is flyers. I guess Bretonnia stomps everyone, but several factions (vampires, HE...) can field obscenely powerful flying goon squads. Yeah, the considerations switch up quite a bit when you introduce budgeting as a concept (like in MP). Orks definitely look comparatively better under those conditions. I still think that they're behind Warriors of Chaos and Norsca, though. Probably Lizardmen, too.
I don't think that there's anything that can stand up to sauruses in tier 1-3. Maybe chaos warriors but this remains to be seen.
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Well Saurus units need to be strong, because of their insane disadvantage of being uncontrollabe when you need to control them.
Can't wait to try out the buffed Dwarfen cannons in Mortal Realms. You got to be this size or smaller to not explode vs Dwarfs :D
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Idk, I don't think battle rage is that much of a disadvantage on heavy infantry. You've got them in the mist of the fight most of the time anyways. Also they don't break as fast.
Sure that makes them worse for defensive play, but since their ranged unit is more of a support unit anyways, you don't mind that much imo. LM don't really "hold a line".
And Dreadspears don't hold Saurus. Played even (according to autofight) armies today and Saurus tear Corsairs and Dreadspears apart. His infantry ball ran up a hill and teared right through my center that was supported by my melee lord, a melee hero and a Hydra.
Not saying the MU is imbalanced, LM's other units are lackluster/support and their base line falls off. But Saurus are quite something.
Also holy shit that ritual is retarded as DE.
rambling + Show Spoiler +Chaos has random spawn points and starts either right next to 2 cities from me or next to my capital. They also ignore their goal and just destroy cities that are unguarded and closest to them, even if they have to move away from the area they are supposed to destroy. As Lizards I could see them coming miles ago. And the intervention spawns right next to one of my city with 20 troops. Sure. Guess I'm gonna save-scum that shit.
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Can't wait for the Mortal Empire campaign. That's what Total War has been about since i first played the original Shogun.
These small scale campaigns have never failed to dissappoint me. I consider the Vortex map one of those and the inherent design flaws are just to grand to ignore them in the long run.
CA has always made horrible design decisions that gave me the impression that they're fixated on those early on in the design progress and are absolutely unwilling to change the things that obviously decrease the fun of the game, which should be obvious to any of these designers who critically assess the quality of their game.
CA in a nut shell is that every Total War game brings the series two steps ahead and two steps back.
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On October 23 2017 11:22 Archeon wrote:Idk, I don't think battle rage is that much of a disadvantage on heavy infantry. You've got them in the mist of the fight most of the time anyways. Also they don't break as fast. Sure that makes them worse for defensive play, but since their ranged unit is more of a support unit anyways, you don't mind that much imo. LM don't really "hold a line". And Dreadspears don't hold Saurus. Played even (according to autofight) armies today and Saurus tear Corsairs and Dreadspears apart. His infantry ball ran up a hill and teared right through my center that was supported by my melee lord, a melee hero and a Hydra. Not saying the MU is imbalanced, LM's other units are lackluster/support and their base line falls off. But Saurus are quite something. Also holy shit that ritual is retarded as DE. rambling + Show Spoiler +Chaos has random spawn points and starts either right next to 2 cities from me or next to my capital. They also ignore their goal and just destroy cities that are unguarded and closest to them, even if they have to move away from the area they are supposed to destroy. As Lizards I could see them coming miles ago. And the intervention spawns right next to one of my city with 20 troops. Sure. Guess I'm gonna save-scum that shit.
Dreadspears are absolutely good enough to hold the line against sauruses. I think you're getting a little mixed up here regarding how this works. I'm not saying that Dreadspears are going to kill Sauruses. Dark Elves don't need them to. What they need is for Dreadspears to hold the Sauruses in place so that the Dark Elves can kill them with their other toys (like Darkshards). Dreadspears are more than adequate for this because they have a high enough melee defense stat. Plenty of other basic infantry can pull off the same trick. I don't know if you saw my writeups about my last Empire campaign, but I pretty much limited myself to only using halberdiers and handgunners in my armies (no demis, Reiksguard, or greatswords). I used my halberdiers to anchor the enemy lines in place while my handgunners ripped them apart. My halberdiers were never going to straight up beat the Chosen and Chaos Warriors that they were engaged with. But they didn't need to. They just had to hold for a bit, which isn't hard when they're over 60 MD. Dark Elves can do the same thing (though not quite as well).
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By the way guys. Have you seen Legend of Total War's lategame HE stacks? Lord + 3x bolt thrower + 8-10 phoenix guard + 6-8 archers, that's it and all the stacks are like that.
It seems that dragons and cavalry are not optimal 
I also like how in the Tyrion campaign the first thing he does is disband the phoenix on turn one 
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I just want to voice my hate for AI Lizardmen and their love of all skirmisher armies. If the game is going to do this to me when I play Skaven, I want them to lower the price on that damn Doomwheel tech. Or make Rat Ogres immune to the slow of poison.
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On October 23 2017 22:59 Plansix wrote:
I just want to voice my hate for AI Lizardmen and their love of all skirmisher armies. If the game is going to do this to me when I play Skaven, I want them to lower the price on that damn Doomwheel tech. Or make Rat Ogres immune to the slow of poison.
Menace from below!
Seriously though, I'll probably be crying soon and voicing my outrage here since I've started playing around with Queek yesterday.
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Only on my 4th campaign did i manage to get a strong enough foothold to not waffle stomped like a turd through a drain by whatever lizard faction post turn 50.
Seriously gotta rush those catapults and storm vermin if you wanna stand a chance.
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On October 23 2017 23:20 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2017 22:59 Plansix wrote:
I just want to voice my hate for AI Lizardmen and their love of all skirmisher armies. If the game is going to do this to me when I play Skaven, I want them to lower the price on that damn Doomwheel tech. Or make Rat Ogres immune to the slow of poison. Menace from below! Seriously though, I'll probably be crying soon and voicing my outrage here since I've started playing around with Queek yesterday.
And Lore of Plagues all day every day. But it’s a god damn chore. And the worst part is I’m playing Skrolk, with by back up against angry high elves and lizard men. It is so hard to build armies than can deal with mass dumb cavalry or mass skirmishers and drunk dinosaurs. I just got to doom wheel tech and I cannot wait to run those stupid skinks over.
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On October 23 2017 15:28 Manit0u wrote:By the way guys. Have you seen Legend of Total War's lategame HE stacks? Lord + 3x bolt thrower + 8-10 phoenix guard + 6-8 archers, that's it and all the stacks are like that. It seems that dragons and cavalry are not optimal I also like how in the Tyrion campaign the first thing he does is disband the phoenix on turn one
I agree that dragons are kinda lackluster outside of their breath. They definitely lack the power of a mammoths and hydras.
As for Legend of TW's strategy, I watched him use that build (here at about 1:13:00) (less phoenix guards, more spearmen) and it failed against a heavily armored dark elf army pretty much as I would expect it to. HE archers just don't have sufficient killing power to build an army around. The spearmen stacks did fine in terms of holding the line, but he had nothing that was going to kill the Dark Elf army, which is why is his army ultimately got ground into dust.
Also, NDA has been lifted on Mortal Empires content. Lots of new stuff is being released today.
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In terms of the dragons, I pretty much only used them because they looked cool / as replacement for cavalry for DE in the very late game since I didn't felt like dealing with the enrage mechanic and didn’t mind the cost.
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On October 24 2017 00:44 waffelz wrote:
In terms of the dragons, I pretty much only used them because they looked cool / as replacement for cavalry for DE in the very late game since I didn't felt like dealing with the enrage mechanic and didn’t mind the cost.
Yeah, that was my initial thought, too, but I found that hydras worked better as the cav replacement.
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Dragons are nice for taking cities. clearing the walls before your infantry arrive to stop them from getting mauled.
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My workhorse HE stack was lord (red tree buffs for archer/spear and blue line for cheaper units), mage, 2x star dragon, 2x bolt thrower and 14 lothern seaguard with shields.
Shits on basically everything.
The problem with seaguard is that you cant have a heavy core of them and a few cav/melee inf since autocalc kills the lone units in autoresolve even in easy battles.
But dragons are tanky enough to take it and you can just spam heal them and your heroes if you need it.
Be warned that it looses heavily to elite skaven armies if autocalced (like in the sea).
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On October 24 2017 00:49 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2017 00:44 waffelz wrote:
In terms of the dragons, I pretty much only used them because they looked cool / as replacement for cavalry for DE in the very late game since I didn't felt like dealing with the enrage mechanic and didn’t mind the cost. Yeah, that was my initial thought, too, but I found that hydras worked better as the cav replacement.
Depends on the target in my opinion. Generally hydras are better, but for rushing artillery or generally everything that involves you not wanting your unit be able to get tied up on the way / you want the speed I prefer the dragons. It should also be noted that I pretty much only use them without concern for efficiency and more because I want to, so the better overall performance of hydras isn’t much of a concern since I just want to minimize artillery causalities or don’t want to be bothered by cav / skirmishers.
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Dragons can also deal with flying units, which is something the hyrda can't do. And they are a good way to apply fear/terror any part of the battle field.
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The best lizard men can get is as cosplaying a panzergrenadier division with dinos breaking the formation and the sarus flooding in behind them to chop up the line. Croxigors are amazing for this early as they are an anti large anti formation monster infantry before switching out to regen dinos and dabbing on people. Some chameleon skinks in the backline but otherwise just hard charging.
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On October 23 2017 12:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2017 11:22 Archeon wrote:Idk, I don't think battle rage is that much of a disadvantage on heavy infantry. You've got them in the mist of the fight most of the time anyways. Also they don't break as fast. Sure that makes them worse for defensive play, but since their ranged unit is more of a support unit anyways, you don't mind that much imo. LM don't really "hold a line". And Dreadspears don't hold Saurus. Played even (according to autofight) armies today and Saurus tear Corsairs and Dreadspears apart. His infantry ball ran up a hill and teared right through my center that was supported by my melee lord, a melee hero and a Hydra. Not saying the MU is imbalanced, LM's other units are lackluster/support and their base line falls off. But Saurus are quite something. Also holy shit that ritual is retarded as DE. rambling + Show Spoiler +Chaos has random spawn points and starts either right next to 2 cities from me or next to my capital. They also ignore their goal and just destroy cities that are unguarded and closest to them, even if they have to move away from the area they are supposed to destroy. As Lizards I could see them coming miles ago. And the intervention spawns right next to one of my city with 20 troops. Sure. Guess I'm gonna save-scum that shit. Dreadspears are absolutely good enough to hold the line against sauruses. I think you're getting a little mixed up here regarding how this works. I'm not saying that Dreadspears are going to kill Sauruses. Dark Elves don't need them to. What they need is for Dreadspears to hold the Sauruses in place so that the Dark Elves can kill them with their other toys (like Darkshards). Dreadspears are more than adequate for this because they have a high enough melee defense stat. Plenty of other basic infantry can pull off the same trick. I don't know if you saw my writeups about my last Empire campaign, but I pretty much limited myself to only using halberdiers and handgunners in my armies (no demis, Reiksguard, or greatswords). I used my halberdiers to anchor the enemy lines in place while my handgunners ripped them apart. My halberdiers were never going to straight up beat the Chosen and Chaos Warriors that they were engaged with. But they didn't need to. They just had to hold for a bit, which isn't hard when they're over 60 MD. Dark Elves can do the same thing (though not quite as well).
What you describe is precisely how I fought against Chaos Tribes and Vermins with great success. Sit atop of a hill, form defensive line/half moon and let your archers do the damage.
Saurus however have 53 base damage (more than any melee infantry in TWW1) and 28 melee attack (t3-level, 2 less than greatswords, longbeards, same as graveguards). They also just go mad instead of breaking if you plummet them enough. They didn't flank, got disrupted by hydra attacks and 2 heroes/lords, went up a hill and they just broke my 3 infantry stacks in the center in ~15 seconds.
To be fair, my archer line got pretty much disabled by the large amount of terradons and my center was partly composed of corsairs who have worse defensive stats than Dreadspears. So the infantry was more or less left on their own. But I don't think I've ever seen an infantry stack tear that fast through another unflanked infantry stack and I've played a lot of forsaken.
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EPT
