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On October 20 2017 04:50 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:On October 20 2017 01:09 andrewlt wrote:On October 18 2017 07:10 Vindicare605 wrote:
High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army? I am more curious as to how they stack up against their WE cousins. That seems to be the closest equivalent to their armies in the old world. It's easier to compare them to Empire or Chaos with that frame of reference in mind. I'm interested to see what campaign changes they made to the old races. Playing Empire and Von Carstein felt really outdated compared to playing as WE. Everything from the research tree to the building tree to the income generation just felt clunky. I don't think High Elves play anything like Wood Elves. Wood Elves are far more range oriented than High Elves. If anything, High Elves are rather weak at the ranged game, so their closest Old World analogue would be the Vampire Counts. As for updating the old races, I don't see any new mechanics being introduced. CA may spruce up the tech trees a bit, but if games using the faction unlocker are any indication, there likely will be no changes. One thing that I think that CA will do is further update the legendary lords skill trees to accommodate a 40 level system. That may not happen on release of Mortal Empires, but it does need to happen. Well, the wood elves have a powerful tech tree that is easy to complete. The oldest races have very large tech trees with very long research times that only provide small bonuses. Maybe updating the old races towards something in the middle would suffice. I remember reading a CA post about adding new buildings and building slots for all the races. And that they are going to take a look at the extra building (armory is the biggest offender) requirements for most of the old races.
Well, CA did make the armoury a level 3 building when they released Norsca, which took off a lot of the building slot pressure that Empire had to deal with. But that doesn't even really matter that much given that Altdorf has 10 slots and every other provincial capital has a minimum of 8. Squeezing everything in isn't very hard anymore. But you can definitely tell that there's a different philosophy on buildings trees in WH2 than in WH1.
And you do raise a good point about the qualitative difference between the tech trees in WH1 and WH2. The WH2 trees definitely make more of an impact overall, particularly when you look at the Empire's tech tree.
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On October 20 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:
If anything, High Elves are rather weak at the ranged game, so their closest Old World analogue would be the Vampire Counts.
What? HE archers are pretty top notch. Lothern Seaguard are pretty versatile and awesome too. They don't really have an analogue in the Old World since they can boast very strong skirmishers, strong hybrid units, strong monsters (all flying at that!), great chariots, awesome spellcasters, very strong elite infantry and probably the best cavalry options in the game .
Their only real problems are most of their units being elite or close-to-elite (read: costly) and lack of ground monster infantry or monsters to help out in the slugfests (it's all just regular units or cavalry on the ground for them). Their artillery is also situational.
I mean, you can't compare them with vamps since they're pretty strong at what vamps lack (ranged options). The closest you can compare VC with is WoC (and WoC lose in this contest in my opinion).
Edit: I mean, theoretically you could try and compare HE with Empire. Empire being more versatile and having more options and numbers while HE having overall superior but less numerous troupes.
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On October 20 2017 07:54 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:
If anything, High Elves are rather weak at the ranged game, so their closest Old World analogue would be the Vampire Counts. What? HE archers are pretty top notch. Lothern Seaguard are pretty versatile and awesome too. They don't really have an analogue in the Old World since they can boast very strong skirmishers, strong hybrid units, strong monsters (all flying at that!), great chariots, awesome spellcasters, very strong elite infantry and probably the best cavalry options in the game . Their only real problems are most of their units being elite or close-to-elite (read: costly) and lack of ground monster infantry or monsters to help out in the slugfests (it's all just regular units or cavalry on the ground for them). Their artillery is also situational. I mean, you can't compare them with vamps since they're pretty strong at what vamps lack (ranged options). The closest you can compare VC with is WoC (and WoC lose in this contest in my opinion). Edit: I mean, theoretically you could try and compare HE with Empire. Empire being more versatile and having more options and numbers while HE having overall superior but less numerous troupes.
How are High Elf archers top notch? They don't even enter the conversation of best ranged infantry. Same with Lothern Seaguard. Hell, if you're ranking factions based upon ranged capabilities, High Elves clearly aren't top 5. They're very much in the lower tier. Just think about how High Elves win their battles. They don't win them with ranged units (except in the very early game against shit troops). High Elves make their bones with elite infantry, elite cavalry, spellcasters, and monsters. That sounds a lot like VC to me.
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On October 20 2017 04:57 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2017 04:50 andrewlt wrote:On October 20 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:On October 20 2017 01:09 andrewlt wrote:On October 18 2017 07:10 Vindicare605 wrote:
High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army? I am more curious as to how they stack up against their WE cousins. That seems to be the closest equivalent to their armies in the old world. It's easier to compare them to Empire or Chaos with that frame of reference in mind. I'm interested to see what campaign changes they made to the old races. Playing Empire and Von Carstein felt really outdated compared to playing as WE. Everything from the research tree to the building tree to the income generation just felt clunky. I don't think High Elves play anything like Wood Elves. Wood Elves are far more range oriented than High Elves. If anything, High Elves are rather weak at the ranged game, so their closest Old World analogue would be the Vampire Counts. As for updating the old races, I don't see any new mechanics being introduced. CA may spruce up the tech trees a bit, but if games using the faction unlocker are any indication, there likely will be no changes. One thing that I think that CA will do is further update the legendary lords skill trees to accommodate a 40 level system. That may not happen on release of Mortal Empires, but it does need to happen. Well, the wood elves have a powerful tech tree that is easy to complete. The oldest races have very large tech trees with very long research times that only provide small bonuses. Maybe updating the old races towards something in the middle would suffice. I remember reading a CA post about adding new buildings and building slots for all the races. And that they are going to take a look at the extra building (armory is the biggest offender) requirements for most of the old races. Well, CA did make the armoury a level 3 building when they released Norsca, which took off a lot of the building slot pressure that Empire had to deal with. But that doesn't even really matter that much given that Altdorf has 10 slots and every other provincial capital has a minimum of 8. Squeezing everything in isn't very hard anymore. But you can definitely tell that there's a different philosophy on buildings trees in WH2 than in WH1. And you do raise a good point about the qualitative difference between the tech trees in WH1 and WH2. The WH2 trees definitely make more of an impact overall, particularly when you look at the Empire's tech tree.
They started making the change with the WE building tree. IIRC, upgrading empire buildings to the later stages net you nothing unless you have the corresponding armory. In contrast, upgrading the WE infantry building to level 2 unlocks regular wardancers with the spear version requiring an armory. Same thing with units such as glade guards (poison vs armor piercing) and wild riders.
There's also the matter of the later buildings being extremely expensive. The later races they released that make money off razing feel a lot richer than the earlier races.
On October 20 2017 07:54 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2017 01:34 xDaunt wrote:
If anything, High Elves are rather weak at the ranged game, so their closest Old World analogue would be the Vampire Counts. What? HE archers are pretty top notch. Lothern Seaguard are pretty versatile and awesome too. They don't really have an analogue in the Old World since they can boast very strong skirmishers, strong hybrid units, strong monsters (all flying at that!), great chariots, awesome spellcasters, very strong elite infantry and probably the best cavalry options in the game . Their only real problems are most of their units being elite or close-to-elite (read: costly) and lack of ground monster infantry or monsters to help out in the slugfests (it's all just regular units or cavalry on the ground for them). Their artillery is also situational. I mean, you can't compare them with vamps since they're pretty strong at what vamps lack (ranged options). The closest you can compare VC with is WoC (and WoC lose in this contest in my opinion). Edit: I mean, theoretically you could try and compare HE with Empire. Empire being more versatile and having more options and numbers while HE having overall superior but less numerous troupes.
I think HE archers like Lothern Seaguard aren't strong because they are good at shooting opponents. They are strong because they could kick the ass of light cavalry that charge them. That doesn't make them cost effective in ranged vs ranged battles.
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![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/piee05srmysz.png)
Mortal Empires campaign map with Legendary lord starting positions.
Tomb Kings looks like a 100% sure thing now, there's so much empty space in the Desert that is just begging for more content.
Norsca when they are added looks like they will be the most fun race on this map since they have so much room to work with and so many potential ways their campaign can play out.
Also confirmed from Facebook, Queek will have a campaign objective that involves Karak Eight-Peaks along with Belegar and Skarsnik.
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I hope they adjust the movement speed for ship travel on that huge map. Just a bit so it doesn’t feel like this horrible chore.
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On October 21 2017 01:02 Plansix wrote:
I hope they adjust the movement speed for ship travel on that huge map. Just a bit so it doesn’t feel like this horrible chore.
Don't think they have to. The map is squished together a lot more then the base WH2 map.
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I just hope that they change the army upkeep rules for the Mortal Empires map. 15% per army is too punishing for a map that big. If not, I'll just get a mod.
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On October 21 2017 01:05 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2017 01:02 Plansix wrote:
I hope they adjust the movement speed for ship travel on that huge map. Just a bit so it doesn’t feel like this horrible chore. Don't think they have to. The map is squished together a lot more then the base WH2 map.
I will take anything to alleviate the suffering that is ships in this game. Navel combat is dull as rocks, everything is slow and the terrain is, well, the boring ass sea.
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On October 21 2017 01:17 xDaunt wrote:
I just hope that they change the army upkeep rules for the Mortal Empires map. 15% per army is too punishing for a map that big. If not, I'll just get a mod.
With so many settlements to conquer does that really matter? Even on the Vortex map and even with the climate and upkeep penalties I still find it pretty easy to be swimming in money.
Then again maybe I should just crank the difficulty up. I can see why this is such an issue on Legendary with Public Order being such a pain in the ass on that difficulty.
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On October 21 2017 01:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2017 01:17 xDaunt wrote:
I just hope that they change the army upkeep rules for the Mortal Empires map. 15% per army is too punishing for a map that big. If not, I'll just get a mod. With so many settlements to conquer does that really matter? Even on the Vortex map and even with the climate and upkeep penalties I still find it pretty easy to be swimming in money. Then again maybe I should just crank the difficulty up. I can see why this is such an issue on Legendary with Public Order being such a pain in the ass on that difficulty.
What's your difficulty at? You won't see the 15% penalty until you hit VH. And it is very noticeable and limiting in terms of how many armies that you can field. If you're playing someone like Dark Elves and making the most of their war economy, you can stay ahead of the negative finances. But this is much harder to do for races with more traditional economies.
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Re: the earlier discussion, HE are odd b/c earlygame they have really strong archers in many ways, but then have no high tier stuff that can match that. Sea Guard are handy for multiplayer b/c they alleviate the traditional weaknesses of archers against a competent opponent, while standard HE archers are niche useful in situations where their range can be helpful. But the HE have nothing that can compete with Shades etc. And HE basic archers are outclassed by archers or artillery as a rule.
In campaign they're even stranger... amazing earlygame, then useful only in Princess armies, which can be stupid strong for relatively low upkeep (half Lothern, half Archers, all the Archer-bonuses from the Princess and any gear/characters that play into this, plus the tons of techs that buff LSG in particular). Against armies that are low on shields/missile resist, this can be a devestating comination, routing tons of stuff before it even makes contact. With good use of terrain, can drop much larger forces very effectively. But outside of this kind of composition, the HE are pushed heavily away from archers as a rule.
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Hey guys, thinking of picking this up and honestly not in the mood to read through 75 pages worth of threads, is there any links/sites you can provide as walk throughs?
And from the looks of most people this game is highly recommended?
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The game is superb and highly recommended. I've never been into either Total War or Warhammer and I'm a total convert. There are a ton of excellent streamers out there. PartyElite, Lionheart, HeirOfCarthage, etc. I'd watch a more recent playthrough if you're looking for tips since the game has changed a LOT since launch.
The biggest "aha" moments I've ever had in the game (shit I wish I'd known at the start) are these:
1. Live and die by the character and province tabs in the top right. Most of what you have to do in a turn is listed up here, and you can go methodically through it all and not forget a general out on the ass end of nowhere.
2. Swapping Lords is weird and hidden, but you should know how to do it. It's on the character info screen.
3. Pay attention to all the info on the unit cards in battle, and when you mouse over units to see what effects they're under (flanking, attacked from behind, etc.) so you can actually rout the enemy efficiently.
4. Archers go in square blocks. Infantry go in stretched blocks. Cav goes in lines, or something close to them.
Have fun!
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It's definitely an acquired taste. I personally play about one big session a week and then get pissed for a week. I can't play nearly as much as a lot of people in this thread, but it keeps me coming back.
I would almost recommend getting TW: Medieval 2 and see how you like that. Just realize the Overworld mechanics are much less complex.
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Yes, the game is awesome. It's a must-have for any strategy fan. However, it's a little dense and difficult to get into if you're not familiar with Total War games. If you want to learn, the best way would be to watch HeirOfCarthage's campaign playthroughs on youtube. He is a good player and is particularly excellent at explaining what he is doing and why.
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Let's be honest. We watch HoC and Turin because of their voices. :p
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On October 21 2017 05:00 Yoav wrote:
The game is superb and highly recommended. I've never been into either Total War or Warhammer and I'm a total convert. There are a ton of excellent streamers out there. PartyElite, Lionheart, HeirOfCarthage, etc. I'd watch a more recent playthrough if you're looking for tips since the game has changed a LOT since launch.
The biggest "aha" moments I've ever had in the game (shit I wish I'd known at the start) are these:
1. Live and die by the character and province tabs in the top right. Most of what you have to do in a turn is listed up here, and you can go methodically through it all and not forget a general out on the ass end of nowhere.
2. Swapping Lords is weird and hidden, but you should know how to do it. It's on the character info screen.
3. Pay attention to all the info on the unit cards in battle, and when you mouse over units to see what effects they're under (flanking, attacked from behind, etc.) so you can actually rout the enemy efficiently.
4. Archers go in square blocks. Infantry go in stretched blocks. Cav goes in lines, or something close to them.
Have fun!
Also, never forget the siege into retreat trick. AI is pretty dumb like that (even on VH). If you can't outright kill a settlement, just siege it. If it's much stronger than you the AI will most likely attack you. At this point you have 2 options:
1. Fight them right then and there if you can handle it (no walls!).
2. Retreat. AI usually pursues you with their hero and he's now fighting without the aid of the garrison.
Also, always keep 1 or 2 artillery pieces in your armies since it allows you to instantly autoresolve against settlements (speeds up things a great amount over the course of the campaign).
On October 21 2017 01:53 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2017 01:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On October 21 2017 01:17 xDaunt wrote:
I just hope that they change the army upkeep rules for the Mortal Empires map. 15% per army is too punishing for a map that big. If not, I'll just get a mod. With so many settlements to conquer does that really matter? Even on the Vortex map and even with the climate and upkeep penalties I still find it pretty easy to be swimming in money. Then again maybe I should just crank the difficulty up. I can see why this is such an issue on Legendary with Public Order being such a pain in the ass on that difficulty. What's your difficulty at? You won't see the 15% penalty until you hit VH. And it is very noticeable and limiting in terms of how many armies that you can field. If you're playing someone like Dark Elves and making the most of their war economy, you can stay ahead of the negative finances. But this is much harder to do for races with more traditional economies.
Heh, I usually get by with just 2-3 stacks. Just finished WoC on very hard and had a total of 2 stacks (second being created about 150 turns into the game).
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On October 21 2017 05:14 Jerubaal wrote:
Let's be honest. We watch HoC and Turin because of their voices. :p
I enjoy HoC's working stiff youtuber on the side style and that he doesn't grind out games or care about "competitive" anything.
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I really like the High Elf Archers because of their range. Its fun to have multiple archer lines and just melt their ranged without them being able to retaliate. Yeah shorter ranged archers beat them in direct fights. But they shouldn't get in range in a healthy state.
And once their Archers are gone its really hard for melees to fight HE Archers.
But if you use them you usually are in for long drawn out battles. And you usally want certain 60 influence lord talents + ritual items. But thats pretty much true for their more melee oriented armies too. High Elf Lords really decide what army you use.
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EPT
