On October 17 2017 07:32 xDaunt wrote: I feel like Dark Elves are the nastiest faction to fight against. They have a ton of really strong shit and no glaring weaknesses. Their basic ranged capabilities are about as good as the Empire's, if not situationally better. They are only clearly outclassed by Empire artillery (which is really fucking strong in WH2). They have top notch line infantry with black black guards. Cold one riders are very solid for cost at warding off enemy cavalry. Death hags are stupid strong in melee combat. And I haven't even gotten to hydras. I can roll over most factions in offensive siege battles, but taking heavily garrisoned Dark Elf cities is legitimately hard.
The High Elves seem really strong too. Outrangeously good Calvary and Monsters, Archers and Infantry are super strong too, there literally is hardly any downside to just massing Lothern Sea Guard. Just about the only thing lacking for them is artillery which is decent. The Eagle Claws have longer range than Dark Elf artillery and with all of the crazy bonuses that Princesses get they can deal a ton of damage. They aren't that great vs Monsters but then again every archer unit also doubles as a spearman so that isn't so bad.
I think the big difference between High Elves and Dark Elves is ranged capability. Lothern sea guard are nice in that they are really durable, but their damage output is not comparable to the more elite ranged specialists (shades or darksharks, for example) given the lack of armor piercing damage. But yeah, I agree that most of the High Elf stuff is really strong, too. With the exception of the Skaven, there's definitely far less faction specialization in WH2 than in WH1. This isn't bad per se, but I do wonder how inter-factional balance is going to work. I don't think that it will be much of a problem for MP where CA can simply adjust costs, but effectively dealing with masses of AI doomstacks in the campaign is another matter. But I guess that's half the fun, right?
EDIT: Here's a tell that CA is aware of this -- honest steel now also gives its bonuses to greatswords.
Anyway, CA confirmed that Mortal Empires will drop 10/26 (a week from Thursday). Now we just need the blood pack. Half the fun of using massed Empire firepower is splattering enemy troops.
EDIT2: Sweet, the blood pack will be released on the same day.
I mean, a solid Archer unit that isn't a viability if its flanked by Calvary is a super strong unit. The Shades are good if you just leave them alone but who the hell just leaves ranged units alone besides Dwarfs who will just outgun them?
High Elves have a wide variety of flying units like Phoenixes, Eagles (which are real cheap btw) and Dragons that can stomp on shades as well as Dragon Knights which have an outrageously strong charge bonus for how fast they are (compared to say Lance formation on Bretonnian Knights)
Lothern Seaguard will lose a straight up shoot out, but they dont have the weakness of being flanked by Calvary. So you mix them in with some Calvary and some more dedicated Infantry units like Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters of Hoeth to deal with their infantry lines and then fit in some flanking flying units.....
High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army?
On October 17 2017 07:32 xDaunt wrote: I feel like Dark Elves are the nastiest faction to fight against. They have a ton of really strong shit and no glaring weaknesses. Their basic ranged capabilities are about as good as the Empire's, if not situationally better. They are only clearly outclassed by Empire artillery (which is really fucking strong in WH2). They have top notch line infantry with black black guards. Cold one riders are very solid for cost at warding off enemy cavalry. Death hags are stupid strong in melee combat. And I haven't even gotten to hydras. I can roll over most factions in offensive siege battles, but taking heavily garrisoned Dark Elf cities is legitimately hard.
The High Elves seem really strong too. Outrangeously good Calvary and Monsters, Archers and Infantry are super strong too, there literally is hardly any downside to just massing Lothern Sea Guard. Just about the only thing lacking for them is artillery which is decent. The Eagle Claws have longer range than Dark Elf artillery and with all of the crazy bonuses that Princesses get they can deal a ton of damage. They aren't that great vs Monsters but then again every archer unit also doubles as a spearman so that isn't so bad.
I think the big difference between High Elves and Dark Elves is ranged capability. Lothern sea guard are nice in that they are really durable, but their damage output is not comparable to the more elite ranged specialists (shades or darksharks, for example) given the lack of armor piercing damage. But yeah, I agree that most of the High Elf stuff is really strong, too. With the exception of the Skaven, there's definitely far less faction specialization in WH2 than in WH1. This isn't bad per se, but I do wonder how inter-factional balance is going to work. I don't think that it will be much of a problem for MP where CA can simply adjust costs, but effectively dealing with masses of AI doomstacks in the campaign is another matter. But I guess that's half the fun, right?
EDIT: Here's a tell that CA is aware of this -- honest steel now also gives its bonuses to greatswords.
Anyway, CA confirmed that Mortal Empires will drop 10/26 (a week from Thursday). Now we just need the blood pack. Half the fun of using massed Empire firepower is splattering enemy troops.
EDIT2: Sweet, the blood pack will be released on the same day.
I mean, a solid Archer unit that isn't a viability if its flanked by Calvary is a super strong unit. The Shades are good if you just leave them alone but who the hell just leaves ranged units alone besides Dwarfs who will just outgun them?
High Elves have a wide variety of flying units like Phoenixes, Eagles (which are real cheap btw) and Dragons that can stomp on shades as well as Dragon Knights which have an outrageously strong charge bonus for how fast they are (compared to say Lance formation on Bretonnian Knights)
Lothern Seaguard will lose a straight up shoot out, but they dont have the weakness of being flanked by Calvary. So you mix them in with some Calvary and some more dedicated Infantry units like Phoenix Guard and Swordmasters of Hoeth to deal with their infantry lines and then fit in some flanking flying units.....
High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army?
I think that elves would pretty much roflstomp chaos. WoC have pretty weak roster overall (especially considering their lack of good skirmishers). With Empire it would be tricky since DE and HE lack any reliable way to deal with steam tanks for example and their premier units get curbstomped by handgunners (who in turn would probably drop like flies to archers, which is a nice rock/paper/scissors scenario). I think that HE could go head to head with Empire and Vamps (top two factions from the Old World in my opinion) and pretty much destroy anything else. DE are a bit lower on the power bar for me. Hydras are great but their heavy cavalry is rather unreliable and despite them having great offense they suffer too much from the glass cannon syndrome (and they don't have Treekin or anything like that to make up for it like WE).
Edit: Bonus awesome video!
I must say that the quality of this series never ceases to amaze me. Some of the animations are stellar and the attention to detail by CA is making my jaw drop sometimes.
On October 18 2017 07:10 Vindicare605 wrote: High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army?
It's hard to say for MP because we don't see the unit costs yet, but I'm pretty sure that Empire is going to play a bit differently in the campaign due to changes to artillery. All in all, Empire artillery is much stronger in WH2 than in WH1. I'm not entirely sure what changed (the stats are mostly similar, with some notable exceptions), but it seems like accuracy is improved across the board and artillery is benefiting from the same type changes to AoE damage that magic received. The other big change is that artillery is noticeably more specialized now. Each artillery piece has a much more defined role than in WH1. Mortars and hellstorm rocket batteries do obscene damage to lightly armored infantry. The effective damage on each is comparable to SFO (for reference, SFO jacked up the damage of all artillery by 2-3x). Remember when I used to bitch about hellblaster volley guns sucking ass in fights and doing less damage than a squad of handgunners? Those days are over. These things are absolute killers now. Proper positioning is a little tricky given how slow they are, but it doesn't really matter if they aren't firing into a flank. They will do plenty of work for you, particularly if you can fire into a mass of enemy troops. But if you do get one positioned on a flank -- oh boy.... In short, there is no reason not to have a couple of these in your late game armies. They're that good. The other unit that I think is a must-have now is the great cannon. With the buffs to accuracy, these things do serious work against monsters -- especially flying units. With two units of great cannons in your army, you can rout or even kill two units of enemy monsters before they even get to your lines. I definitely see these things being used more often in Empire armies. The one unit that seems less effective now is the steam tank. The melee damage output doesn't seem to be as good as it was in WH1. And considering that great cannons do almost 3x the damage that steam tanks do, I really don't think that you will want to bring more than a couple steam tanks along in your doom stacks.
Empire would have a massive artillery advantage and I would argue a notable at the least calvary advantage.
The issue would be what holds the main battle line for the empire. Great swords or halbridiers vs the high elves? I mean spearmen with shields would be nice as a cheap fodder but thats a pretty large hole in your battle plan as the empire.
With the Artillery changes I would think the dwarves would be the biggest threat to the new world factions.
On October 18 2017 11:06 Sermokala wrote: Empire would have a massive artillery advantage and I would argue a notable at the least calvary advantage.
The issue would be what holds the main battle line for the empire. Great swords or halbridiers vs the high elves? I mean spearmen with shields would be nice as a cheap fodder but thats a pretty large hole in your battle plan as the empire.
With the Artillery changes I would think the dwarves would be the biggest threat to the new world factions.
For SP, I think you need greatswords to storm settlements. Halberdiers can hold a line better than greatswords (spearmen with shields do a good job as well), but they don't really do much damage. This doesn't matter in the open field because you can bring your heavy hitting ranged units and cavalry to bear. The problem with attacking cities is that you have far fewer opportunities to get these units involved in the tighter spaces. Your best bet is to get your handgunners on the walls where they can fire into the enemy from above. If you can do that, you're gold. However, you have to take the walls first and clear out whatever is up there. Greatswords are much better at that than halberdiers. The alternative is to punch a hole in the walls and charge the breach, supporting whatever you send through there with magic (preferably a big vortex or bombardment spell that pieces armor). Halberdiers can work here and may even be preferable to greatswords if you're fighting large units. But in reality, I find that taking the walls and charging the breach isn't an either/or proposition given that tanks are less effective and given that Empire infantry are relatively inferior. I think you have to fight the enemy on the walls and in the breach if it has a significant garrison.
As for the Dwarves, I really want to see what flame cannons and organ guns do now. If they got buffed along the lines of great cannons and hellblasters, look out! It also looks like irondrakes got a large buff. So yeah, the Dawi may be all kinds of nasty now.
How are you supposed to build up some territory with Skaven? Finally started winning fights but now I got -29 food per turn for settlements.. How the heck am I supposed to compensate for that?
On October 18 2017 13:05 B.I.G. wrote: How are you supposed to build up some territory with Skaven? Finally started winning fights but now I got -29 food per turn for settlements.. How the heck am I supposed to compensate for that?
Raiding, edicts (costs you 30% income though...) and most important: battles
My first Mortal Realms will probably be Dwarfs, re-enacting the War of the Beard and the joy of burning Skaven with flame cannons and Irondrakes, it will be glorious
On October 18 2017 17:25 B.I.G. wrote: Been doing that but still solidly at zero food, losing 20 per turn.
Do you always eat the captives after a battle? There are also a few cities with buildings that give you food (not that much though...). I feel like as skaven you have to be constantly on the offensive, a big battle + choosing the food options for the captives can give you 20+ food with ease. I also like to keep public order in provinces near the frontline low so in case I have a stack that needs healing I can just raid my own territory, get 3 food in the process and often also trigger a rebellion that again gives some food as well as money. Also try not to focus on getting settlements but rather whole provinces since every settlement costs you food without the edict or the food buildings. IF food is your priority it also weirdly works out as taking a 3 settlement province is better than having a 4 settlement province. Overall it just breaks with some of the classical approach to settling of the other races.
For example I am currently losing 76 food per turn for settlements alone, 14 through armies, I make 38 back through edicts, 22 through buildings, 30 through captives and 9 through raiding which nets me a +9 food gain. I can’t keep this going ofc unless I keep fighting, though without armies I would only be 13 food in the negative when relying only on buildings and edicts. And I don’t even have the food edict issued in all of my provinces. And without fighting I wouldnt need those armies.
As Skaven if you care about food its pretty important to establish full regions so you can get the food from edicts. Also need to focus on getting provinces that give rice farms. Skaven make enough money from all their buidlings to afford -30% on them all. Especially if you have a few higher level Warlords.
I really like having alot of food, rather then alot of money. Skaven that don't run are damn strong and having every settlement you take instantly level 3 makes it really hard for anyone to take it back.
So I started a new campaign on Legendary as Mazdamundi and I just finished the first ritual around turn 50. I allied with the New World Colonies and they have been super helpful the entire game. After taking out Skeggi, I turned my attention to the skaven to the north and west. I captured the entire province to the north by around turn 15, but the dark elves north of that declared war on me and sailed from their peninsula to take out the Ziggurat of Dawn. Around that time I had my first rebellion in Skeggi, and the New World Colonies defeated the rebels on their way up to the Ziggurat. They drove out the Dark Elves and took it, and I was left lamenting the fact that I can't trade settlements with my ally. I would much prefer if he had Skeggi and I had the Ziggurat. Instead we both have 1 settlement in each other's province.
After that, I rode north and razed Sa'ildra Tor, picking up a blessed spawning of cold one riders in the process. That faction offered 1000 gold for peace and I took it so that I could go wipe out the Skaven to the west once and for all. They were easily dealt with, however, in the mean time the Orcs to the south took Swamp Town from the New World Colonies and Skeggi rebels took back their city. After that, Skeggi also took the Ziggurat of Dawn from the New World Colonies. Those last two events occurred while I was completing the Ritual, but now that it's over I am left wondering what to do next. I have the entire provinces to the west and the north of Hexoatl. I need to declare war on Skeggi and take the Ziggurat back, and then I would like to ride south. However, I am worried of the shaky peace with the Dark Elves to the north. I have been giving them small gifts every 3-4 turns so that I can remain at around -40 to -50, which seems to be preventing a war dec from them. I also gifted the Lizardmen factions to the south and established trade with both of them, which has been quite lucrative.
One thing that I have been doing on this campaign that I found utterly crucial is to have a lord with no army sail around and loot the ocean. It totally pays for itself. Somehow I had never done that before this campaign but I would highly recommend it for the future.
Either there have been changes to auto resolve or there is something wrong with the Dark Elf calculations.
A normal spear/sword + archer army that I could safely auto resolve as HE with minimal casualties suffers a ton more as DE. Chasing down an army that was defeated in the same turn, so all units near death and they still kill a 100 of mine when I could resolve it with near 0 casualties before.
On October 18 2017 07:10 Vindicare605 wrote: High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army?
I am more curious as to how they stack up against their WE cousins. That seems to be the closest equivalent to their armies in the old world. It's easier to compare them to Empire or Chaos with that frame of reference in mind.
I'm interested to see what campaign changes they made to the old races. Playing Empire and Von Carstein felt really outdated compared to playing as WE. Everything from the research tree to the building tree to the income generation just felt clunky.
On October 18 2017 07:10 Vindicare605 wrote: High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army?
I am more curious as to how they stack up against their WE cousins. That seems to be the closest equivalent to their armies in the old world. It's easier to compare them to Empire or Chaos with that frame of reference in mind.
I'm interested to see what campaign changes they made to the old races. Playing Empire and Von Carstein felt really outdated compared to playing as WE. Everything from the research tree to the building tree to the income generation just felt clunky.
I don't think High Elves play anything like Wood Elves. Wood Elves are far more range oriented than High Elves. If anything, High Elves are rather weak at the ranged game, so their closest Old World analogue would be the Vampire Counts.
As for updating the old races, I don't see any new mechanics being introduced. CA may spruce up the tech trees a bit, but if games using the faction unlocker are any indication, there likely will be no changes. One thing that I think that CA will do is further update the legendary lords skill trees to accommodate a 40 level system. That may not happen on release of Mortal Empires, but it does need to happen.
High elves play nothing like wood elves. They have calvary options and real armor. The wood elves rely on monsters with high physical resistance, being fast and endless skirmishers. And some massively over priced vanguard deployable archers(really they are just hard pick and be sure they will be effective)
On October 18 2017 07:10 Vindicare605 wrote: High Elves have a strong army, the Dark Elves have some advantages sure but considering that those two races are chief enemies to one another it would make sense that they both have advantages over the other. The question I want to know is, how would either of them fare against a well rounded Empire or Chaos army?
I am more curious as to how they stack up against their WE cousins. That seems to be the closest equivalent to their armies in the old world. It's easier to compare them to Empire or Chaos with that frame of reference in mind.
I'm interested to see what campaign changes they made to the old races. Playing Empire and Von Carstein felt really outdated compared to playing as WE. Everything from the research tree to the building tree to the income generation just felt clunky.
I don't think High Elves play anything like Wood Elves. Wood Elves are far more range oriented than High Elves. If anything, High Elves are rather weak at the ranged game, so their closest Old World analogue would be the Vampire Counts.
As for updating the old races, I don't see any new mechanics being introduced. CA may spruce up the tech trees a bit, but if games using the faction unlocker are any indication, there likely will be no changes. One thing that I think that CA will do is further update the legendary lords skill trees to accommodate a 40 level system. That may not happen on release of Mortal Empires, but it does need to happen.
Well, the wood elves have a powerful tech tree that is easy to complete. The oldest races have very large tech trees with very long research times that only provide small bonuses. Maybe updating the old races towards something in the middle would suffice.
I remember reading a CA post about adding new buildings and building slots for all the races. And that they are going to take a look at the extra building (armory is the biggest offender) requirements for most of the old races.
EPT
