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On June 03 2015 19:42 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 19:25 FFW_Rude wrote:On June 03 2015 15:22 Cyro wrote:I fucked up my first mythic cache because i had killed 20 bosses instead of 21, so i still got the heroic one and got worthless item Finally, 14 days up last night + Show Spoiler +fuckkkkkkkk Is that a garrison addon ? I need to find this. I just hit 100 ! i'm happy. Now i need to go farm again :p Yes it's Master Plan, probably the most used and mandatory WOD addon. You should look at the most downloaded addons list on curse. There's some great stuff in there like DBM/bigwigs, master plan, weakauras etc which you can't really play the game properly without
That's what i do but i don't really looked into garrisons. Thanks. I'll get it. I use a lot of stuff like Rarity, collectionnator etc... DBM i have it but i turned it off.
I really dislike addons like "healbot" that practicly play for yourself. So i deactivated DBM because it's like : "Oh this is going to happen you have to do that". I prefer to make the mistake and learn from it and then start to look at the boss and move while i see this or that, because i know what happen. But really i dislike addons that make you artificially better. Dunno why. Just preference maybe.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
So i deactivated DBM because it's like : "Oh this is going to happen you have to do that". I prefer to make the mistake and learn from it and then start to look at the boss and move while i see this or that, because i know what happen.
You can't really do that all of the time. For clearing stuff on lfr/normal, sure - after that, you need the addons more and more. WoW is awful at communicating many boss mechanics, especially when 5 of them are happening at once.
For example rend and tear on beastlord. If you're stood within X yards of another player (it's like 8) when he jumps on them, you'll take a DOT for 400k damage that was otherwise entirely avoidable. That puts a huge amount of strain on your healers. Two of your guys were stood slightly too close to somebody else, so now they have to heal 0.8 million extra damage out of nowhere while handling the rest of the fight.
The game simply communicates a lot of mechanics to you badly (even compared to some other live MMO's like Wildstar) so that you need a few addons as crutches to handle them correctly.
Other cases like weakauras tracking of trinket uptime, internal cooldown etc is just some information presented on your screen that you otherwise had to guess at or ignore.
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On June 03 2015 20:14 Gorsameth wrote:
Master plan is in no way mandatory. It is conveniences and nothing more.
If you're juggling 11 Garrisons it certainly is!
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On June 03 2015 20:51 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +So i deactivated DBM because it's like : "Oh this is going to happen you have to do that". I prefer to make the mistake and learn from it and then start to look at the boss and move while i see this or that, because i know what happen. You can't really do that all of the time. For clearing stuff on lfr/normal, sure - after that, you need the addons more and more. WoW is awful at communicating many boss mechanics, especially when 5 of them are happening at once. For example rend and tear on beastlord. If you're stood within X yards of another player (it's like 8) when he jumps on them, you'll take a DOT for 400k damage that was otherwise entirely avoidable. That puts a huge amount of strain on your healers. Two of your guys were stood slightly too close to somebody else, so now they have to heal 0.8 million extra damage out of nowhere while handling the rest of the fight. The game simply communicates a lot of mechanics to you badly (even compared to some other live MMO's like Wildstar) so that you need a few addons as crutches to handle them correctly. Other cases like weakauras tracking of trinket uptime, internal cooldown etc is just some information presented on your screen that you otherwise had to guess at or ignore.
I agree that if you NEED a third party program to play the game. There is something wrong with the game to begin with.
The mechanics (imo since i didn't raid WoD yet) are not more complicated than say Naxxramas or Anqiraj. And you didn't have DBM for old dungeons and you could beat them (also it was way more harder than raid todays (i compare only to MoP)).
Too bad i wasn't around Molten core level 100 I'm sure that was really fun (although MC mechanics are quite simple).
Keep in mind that it's IMO and that i could be wrong. I never was a HC raider.
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Weve had this 100x already and i can only repeat myself, but classic raids werent harder than raids now. You can consider anyone's opinion, who thinks raids are easy but doesnt have 10/10 brf mythic himself, worthless.
Weakauras is incredibly useful, not only for positive stuff like trinkets, but also for boss mechanics debuffs which arent always shown in DBM/bigwigs.
Edit: Also i hate Harrison jones. Have 4/6 for over a week now and he keeps repeating those missions.
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The challenges thrown at HC raiders are significantly more trying than any dungeon, including the hardest BC heroics at their prime. You technically can surmount those challenges without DBM, but it's far better to let DBM do the majority of the work of tracking boss CDs, player ranges, and present events and let your players concentrate on their rotations and tasks.
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Note that I did say Bigwigs is more or less needed if your raiding, I don't disagree with that, my point is that to many people regard a fair few mods as 'needed' when they aren't and that what addons you use is entirely up to personal preference.
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On June 03 2015 22:40 Gorsameth wrote:
Note that I did say Bigwigs is more or less needed if your raiding, I don't disagree with that, my point is that to many people regard a fair few mods as 'needed' when they aren't and that what addons you use is entirely up to personal preference.
That's basicly what i think too. But i know some people won't accept you if you don't have the addons (well they can't verify it) but happened a few time in mop 
"What the fuck did you die ?"
"Well i didn't move fast enough"
"Don't you see the big circle and the big text on your screen"
"I saw the circle but too late. I don't have the text, i don't have raid addons"
Was immediatly kicked :p
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As for your question about MC at 100.
It was hell.
HP scaling was way off and people in pugs are as always retarded.
Ninja pulls of mobs that wipe the raid if not handled properly were so much fun /sarcasm.
As someone who actually raided the original MC I can tell you it was nothing like it.
Original MC wasn't hard in the sense that we know now tho. Bosses had like 2 abilities and a lot of them were nullified by broken addons like Decursive which played the game for you.
On the otherhand people were a lot worse back in the day aswell. Optimizing was not nearly as much a thing and consumables weren't really a thing until you got to Ragnaros.
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On June 03 2015 22:40 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:25 Seuss wrote:
The challenges thrown at HC raiders are significantly more trying than any dungeon, including the hardest BC heroics at their prime. You technically can surmount those challenges without DBM, but it's far better to let DBM do the majority of the work of tracking boss CDs, player ranges, and present events and let your players concentrate on their rotations and tasks. I just don't see the point of having those challenge if you can basicly "skip" them. Well it's not skip but you know what i mean
It's really just the evolution of raiding. As we've gotten better at raiding and developed tools which amplify our ability to raid better, Blizzard has gotten better at developing challenges that match our capabilities.
You don't have to install DBM the same way you don't have to use consumables when raiding, but it's a pointless handicap to place on yourself.
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On June 03 2015 22:40 FFW_Rude wrote:I always thought AQ was really hard compared to newer stuff but for those who had the pleasure to play MC 100 it wasn't like that ? Was easier ? the same ? I'm not trying to debate. It's what i thought but i can be wrong. So i'm asking Oh i didn't say using DBM destroyed the challenge. But addons that tells you to hide, to use trinkets, to heal or stuff like that decrease it. For exemple using DBM as a healer for soO made things quite easy when you are focus to switch between raid members. Because i wouldn't die to stuff like flying axes or "burn zones" (you know circles when you need to move out). Also not having to watch closely for things to dispell make things easier. I don't say it's useless. I say i just don't like to use them This is why i'm a pain in the ass while raiding (that's why i don't raid) because i sometime die to silly stuff. But i just think it makes things more interesting. But again. It's just an opinion Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:25 Seuss wrote:
The challenges thrown at HC raiders are significantly more trying than any dungeon, including the hardest BC heroics at their prime. You technically can surmount those challenges without DBM, but it's far better to let DBM do the majority of the work of tracking boss CDs, player ranges, and present events and let your players concentrate on their rotations and tasks. I just don't see the point of having those challenge if you can basicly "skip" them. Well it's not skip but you know what i mean
Even with the addon, reacting is oftentimes challenging because a) there are 5 more things going on at the same time and b) you need to react without sacrificing too much, as in stay in optimal position, dont lose too much dps/hps, dont endanger other people/keep up with other people etc. Of course you could also just play hunter and trollolol.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
The mechanics (imo since i didn't raid WoD yet) are not more complicated than say Naxxramas or Anqiraj.
They absolutely are, they're in a completely different tier. WoW likes to get a lot of difficulty these days by stacking annoying mechanics like don't stand within X range of players while Y mechanic happens, and there are a dozen different timers for shit that's impossible to mentally follow without them.
I vote a boss mod as near-mandatory just because they add so much stuff even if you're just doing 5-mans and old raids - even non-raiders benefit from it a lot
It's really just the evolution of raiding. As we've gotten better at raiding and developed tools which amplify our ability to raid better, Blizzard has gotten better at developing challenges that match our capabilities.
You don't have to install DBM the same way you don't have to use consumables when raiding, but it's a pointless handicap to place on yourself.
The challenges thrown at HC raiders are significantly more trying than any dungeon, including the hardest BC heroics at their prime. You technically can surmount those challenges without DBM, but it's far better to let DBM do the majority of the work of tracking boss CDs, player ranges, and present events and let your players concentrate on their rotations and tasks.
Even with the addon, reacting is oftentimes challenging because a) there are 5 more things going on at the same time and b) you need to react without sacrificing too much, as in stay in optimal position, dont lose too much dps/hps, dont endanger other people/keep up with other people etc.
There are many mechanics that are just designed to be done with addons. The whole encounter tuning, difficulty, amount of stuff happening at once is set up assuming that everybody is using them and everybody will have up to date boss mods before the patch even hits live servers. To not use them would be like showing up to run a race where everybody else has robotic legs and strength enhancing exoskeletons
They could reduce the need a lot by changing the area of difficulty in encounters (what's difficult, what's easy - like positioning on beastlord, blackhand is annoying because of the arbitrary don't stand within X range stuff, yet some other stuff isn't difficult like doing near-full DPS on 1 target because of class simplicity) and by simply clearly telegraphing more abilities. There's a lot of stuff that you HAVE to interact with, but it's not clear what it does, where the effect starts/ends or even sometimes it takes a few seconds to realize that it's being cast because the effect is too difficult to see.
This is why i'm a pain in the ass while raiding (that's why i don't raid) because i sometime die to silly stuff. But i just think it makes things more interesting. But again. It's just an opinion
That attitude doesn't work so well for progression raiding, particularly when everybody else has the addons so hard yet they're pushing to fights tuned aggressively enough for them to wipe anyway. My guild ranking is like top 8% in the world by now, yet most people can't keep track of all the timers and mechanics thrown at them, that's completely standard
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On June 03 2015 22:42 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:40 Gorsameth wrote:
Note that I did say Bigwigs is more or less needed if your raiding, I don't disagree with that, my point is that to many people regard a fair few mods as 'needed' when they aren't and that what addons you use is entirely up to personal preference. That's basicly what i think too. But i know some people won't accept you if you don't have the addons (well they can't verify it) but happened a few time in mop "What the fuck did you die ?" "Well i didn't move fast enough" "Don't you see the big circle and the big text on your screen" "I saw the circle but too late. I don't have the text, i don't have raid addons" Was immediatly kicked :p
That's exactly why you need dbm/bigwigs, especially in pugs. Most people don't want to spend 1h+ for every single encounter so that someone can learn a basic mechanic of the fight, which could otherwise be learned by just paying attention to an addon. Maybe one can find some lunatics who would try to do raids without any addons, but it can never work unless everyone is on the same boat.
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On June 03 2015 22:47 Gorsameth wrote:
As for your question about MC at 100.
It was hell.
HP scaling was way off and people in pugs are as always retarded.
Ninja pulls of mobs that wipe the raid if not handled properly were so much fun /sarcasm.
As someone who actually raided the original MC I can tell you it was nothing like it.
Original MC wasn't hard in the sense that we know now tho. Bosses had like 2 abilities and a lot of them were nullified by broken addons like Decursive which played the game for you.
On the otherhand people were a lot worse back in the day aswell. Optimizing was not nearly as much a thing and consumables weren't really a thing until you got to Ragnaros.
That seems like an old MC raid. Yeah i forgot the decursive addon....
Reading all your post (won't quote all of you or hello wall of text) but i see your points and understand most of it. Disagree on some part but your arguments make sense to me. (i can detail if you want but wall of text :p)
The only thing i don't agree with is :
On June 03 2015 22:54 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:40 FFW_Rude wrote:On June 03 2015 22:25 Seuss wrote:
The challenges thrown at HC raiders are significantly more trying than any dungeon, including the hardest BC heroics at their prime. You technically can surmount those challenges without DBM, but it's far better to let DBM do the majority of the work of tracking boss CDs, player ranges, and present events and let your players concentrate on their rotations and tasks. I just don't see the point of having those challenge if you can basicly "skip" them. Well it's not skip but you know what i mean It's really just the evolution of raiding. As we've gotten better at raiding and developed tools which amplify our ability to raid better, Blizzard has gotten better at developing challenges that match our capabilities. You don't have to install DBM the same way you don't have to use consumables when raiding, but it's a pointless handicap to place on yourself.
So what you say is : "We make better addons so blizzard make harder stuff so our addons don't help that much but we make better addons again and blizzard add so much more stuff so our addons can save us". That's not a good mecanic.
It's like : "There's so much hacker in SC2 that Blizzard decided to remove Fog of War" kind of mecanic (well it's inverted but you get the point).
I'll stay with the hacking analogy for your second sentence. "You don't have to maphack but if you don't, you handicap yourself against hackers". I don't understand that philosophy.
(i'm not ACTUALLY comparing hacking and addons). I'm not english so i have to use simple analogies
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
So what you say is : "We make better addons so blizzard make harder stuff so our addons don't help that much but we make better addons again and blizzard add so much more stuff so our addons can save us". That's not a good mecanic.
I don't agree with it either, but that's what it is. Raids were too easy for people who were adding elements to their UI, which let them do what they wanted to do in a way that didn't make them fight with the UI itself.
They added stuff like timer bars for trinket procs, instead of somebody having to stare at the top right of the screen to see if a certain icon popped up and when it popped up.
They added health bars at the side of the screen to keep track of adds.
They got raid frames so they could accurately and easily see the health and debuffs of all of their allies and respond quicker.
With all of that stuff and way more, raids that were difficult before would then be made trivial. Unless you removed addons and balanced around a game where people had to fight with the UI to perform basic functions, the only real alternative is to balance around people having addons for high level play
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Blizzard have even put stuff in the stock game because of things that addons did being too useful/good to ignore. As an example, for patch 4.0 they put an addon equivalent in game, something auras i think. It pops up graphics around the center of your screen when certain spell procs happen, in order to make them more obvious instead of having people stare at the buffs at the top right.
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On June 03 2015 23:21 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +So what you say is : "We make better addons so blizzard make harder stuff so our addons don't help that much but we make better addons again and blizzard add so much more stuff so our addons can save us". That's not a good mecanic. I don't agree with it either, but that's what it is. Raids were too easy for people who were adding elements to their UI, which let them do what they wanted to do in a way that didn't make them fight with the UI itself. They added stuff like timer bars for trinket procs, instead of somebody having to stare at the top right of the screen to see if a certain icon popped up and when it popped up. They added health bars at the side of the screen to keep track of adds. They got raid frames so they could accurately and easily see the health and debuffs of all of their allies and respond quicker. With all of that stuff and way more, raids that were difficult before would then be made trivial. Unless you removed addons and balanced around a game where people had to fight with the UI to perform basic functions, the only real alternative is to balance around people having addons for high level play --- Blizzard have even put stuff in the stock game because of things that addons did being too useful/good to ignore. As an example, for patch 4.0 they put an addon equivalent in game, something auras i think. It pops up graphics around the center of your screen when certain spell procs happen, in order to make them more obvious instead of having people stare at the buffs at the top right.
Yeah that's true. I just find annoying to add tons of stuff to my Wow experience that pop stuff everywhere telling me to do everything and not having to discover myself. Also some addons are poorly coded and as Mop was running full 200fps, wod is REALLY BADLY OPTIMIZED (sometimes i have 15fps, then go back to 120) and addons add some loading times etc...
They also added the markers for quest and every equivalent of quest helper or something like that. There's some areas not covered by quest that you never see. Exploration is a no go for a lot of players. (well you can exploore) but the game don't put you on track for that.
Overwaul i still like wow a lot for sure (hell i'll admit i love that game :p). But there's some small stuff that aren't that good (espacially for newer player that i try to put to the game).
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On June 03 2015 23:10 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:47 Gorsameth wrote:
As for your question about MC at 100.
It was hell.
HP scaling was way off and people in pugs are as always retarded.
Ninja pulls of mobs that wipe the raid if not handled properly were so much fun /sarcasm.
As someone who actually raided the original MC I can tell you it was nothing like it.
Original MC wasn't hard in the sense that we know now tho. Bosses had like 2 abilities and a lot of them were nullified by broken addons like Decursive which played the game for you.
On the otherhand people were a lot worse back in the day aswell. Optimizing was not nearly as much a thing and consumables weren't really a thing until you got to Ragnaros. That seems like an old MC raid. Yeah i forgot the decursive addon.... Reading all your post (won't quote all of you or hello wall of text) but i see your points and understand most of it. Disagree on some part but your arguments make sense to me. (i can detail if you want but wall of text :p) The only thing i don't agree with is : Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:54 Seuss wrote:On June 03 2015 22:40 FFW_Rude wrote:On June 03 2015 22:25 Seuss wrote:
The challenges thrown at HC raiders are significantly more trying than any dungeon, including the hardest BC heroics at their prime. You technically can surmount those challenges without DBM, but it's far better to let DBM do the majority of the work of tracking boss CDs, player ranges, and present events and let your players concentrate on their rotations and tasks. I just don't see the point of having those challenge if you can basicly "skip" them. Well it's not skip but you know what i mean It's really just the evolution of raiding. As we've gotten better at raiding and developed tools which amplify our ability to raid better, Blizzard has gotten better at developing challenges that match our capabilities. You don't have to install DBM the same way you don't have to use consumables when raiding, but it's a pointless handicap to place on yourself. So what you say is : "We make better addons so blizzard make harder stuff so our addons don't help that much but we make better addons again and blizzard add so much more stuff so our addons can save us". That's not a good mecanic. It's like : "There's so much hacker in SC2 that Blizzard decided to remove Fog of War" kind of mecanic (well it's inverted but you get the point). I'll stay with the hacking analogy for your second sentence. "You don't have to maphack but if you don't, you handicap yourself against hackers". I don't understand that philosophy. (i'm not ACTUALLY comparing hacking and addons). I'm not english so i have to use simple analogies
He is right tho. I even remember a blue post to the effect some time during TBC I believe. Current day boss encounters with their many abilities are the result of the raiding community developing ever more sophisticated tools for tracking them.
And its not purely a reaction game between Blizzard and Addon developers tho. At times addons go to far and Blizzard has stepped in to prevent such addons from working.
Like Decursive that automatically targeted a person with a dispensable debuff and cast the relevant spell at the press of a single button. Or a boss mod that actually drew on the screen to tell you where safe zones were.
Those were deemed to much and game permissions were changed so that the addons could no longer function.
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On June 03 2015 23:10 FFW_Rude wrote:The only thing i don't agree with is : Show nested quote +On June 03 2015 22:54 Seuss wrote:On June 03 2015 22:40 FFW_Rude wrote:On June 03 2015 22:25 Seuss wrote:
The challenges thrown at HC raiders are significantly more trying than any dungeon, including the hardest BC heroics at their prime. You technically can surmount those challenges without DBM, but it's far better to let DBM do the majority of the work of tracking boss CDs, player ranges, and present events and let your players concentrate on their rotations and tasks. I just don't see the point of having those challenge if you can basicly "skip" them. Well it's not skip but you know what i mean It's really just the evolution of raiding. As we've gotten better at raiding and developed tools which amplify our ability to raid better, Blizzard has gotten better at developing challenges that match our capabilities. You don't have to install DBM the same way you don't have to use consumables when raiding, but it's a pointless handicap to place on yourself. So what you say is : "We make better addons so blizzard make harder stuff so our addons don't help that much but we make better addons again and blizzard add so much more stuff so our addons can save us". That's not a good mecanic. It's like : "There's so much hacker in SC2 that Blizzard decided to remove Fog of War" kind of mecanic (well it's inverted but you get the point). I'll stay with the hacking analogy for your second sentence. "You don't have to maphack but if you don't you handicap yourself against hackers". I don't understand that philosophy. (i'm not ACTUALLY comparing hacking and addons). I'm not english so i have to use simple analogies
That's not what I'm saying.
Blizzard isn't in an arms race against our addons, but they assume players are capable of certain things when they design a boss fight. Some of these things have no built-in indicator in the UI (e.g. boss CDs). When you skimp on the addon you're making the fight harder for yourself the same way you do when you skimp on consumables. You don't make it impossible, but you do increase the difficulty.
This isn't a new situation either. Threat meters were utterly crucial for raiding as early as Vanilla, long before Blizzard had any significant built-in support for indicating threat (other than "YOU HAVE THREAT NOW GJ" *splat*). You can wax philosophical about how Blizzard is a terrible company for having to rely on third party mods to make raiding function, but that's really a red herring.
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DBM is training wheels for raids. After long enough, the fight becomes practically muscle memory and you can predict when stuff is going to happen by feeling rather than relying on raid timers. It takes a while to get to that point, though, so it's really useful to learn with the timers.
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