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On March 26 2015 02:11 Seuss wrote:
My only major complaint about WoD is that dungeons felt like afterthoughts.
The same week I hit level 100 I had enough gear to raid, so the only raid-related reason to run heroics was for the legendary quest. I really miss when guildmates were motivated to do stuff together outside of raids.
I think I asked someone like 30 pages ago, I don't get why they removed JP/VP. I would usually like running a daily heroic in previous expansions, but as of now, I have not set foot in a dungeon since I had to do the three dunegons for my legendary quest.
Although I do intend to do the inn quests sometime soon to get those fun perks, but either way idk, I hope they add harder/rewarding dungeons next patch along with some incentive to keep on doing them.
Even on new characters, I just PVP to get gear instead of doing that annoying proving grounds for the "right" to run a heroic.
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JP/VP were replaced by the bonus roll system since JP/VP were horribly grindy and forcing people to run heroics every day (or else fall behind) was bad. The near-complete obsolescence of dungeons themselves was probably an unintended side-effect.
The history of how things got to his point is actually pretty interesting, but I'll summarize.
In Burning Crusade, dungeon and Heroic dungeon gear was the same iLvl as the first tier of raiding, and Badges of Justice could only buy a very limited selection lower iLvl gear. Player ran dungeons first to attune for the T4 raids, and then to supplement their raiding gear. Between then and now there were a series of changes which brought us where we are today:- First, the iLvls of Normal dungeons, Heroics, and first tier Raids were all made different from one another.
- Second, the gear purchasable via Badges/Emblems expanded, eventually including entire Tier sets.
- Third, LFR was introduced, still at a high iLvl than Heroics.
- Finally, Blizzard dropped Badges/Emblems altogether.
Basically, the first two changes made it so that the only reason to run Heroics (Normals were basically obsolete aside from leveling) was for easy pre-raid gear and Badges/Emblems/Points, and the last two changes eliminated those motivations. There's basically nothing left for raid-focused players in dungeons.
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Italy12248 Posts
In TBC you had some early heroic gear that was better than even some BT drops (see the caster trinket), and later they added higher ilvl stuff that was as good as t5-t6 drops. Same with Wotlk, they kept adding items (and dungeons) using that as a catchup mechanism instead of LFR. Personally i preferred that to the current apexis system. Sure it was grindy, but for a raider it wasn't mandatory and it's not like apexis/lfr aren't any less grindy. Also, the bonus roll system can be stupidly frustrating, while valor points/frost badges/whatever you call it isnt. My gf used i think 15 or so bonus rolls on Thok before she got her amp trinket.
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Eh, Heroics were sort of mandatory in WotLK even for raiders. You had to buy the basic versions of tier sets with Emblems before you could upgrade them, and the only cap on Emblems was how many bosses you killed in all applicable raids and how many days of the week you did the daily heroic. Better raiders/guild got past that point faster, but for at least some portion of the tier you were hurting your progression if you didn't collect those 14 extra Emblems each week.
The point of Bonus Rolls (and Garrisons replacing daily quests for income) is obviously to benefit those players for whom an hour is a significant portion of their game time. It's a noble goal, and one Blizzard has been pursuing as far back as mid-BC, but in this case there are a number of unintended side effects (dungeons being pointless, altoholics amassing garrisons for extra gold).
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
but for at least some portion of the tier you were hurting your progression if you didn't collect those 14 extra Emblems each week.
At the start of the expansion you were hurting your progression if a huge portion guild didn't have a Kyanos and a Candle, yet few people farmed the 200-500k a pop for them before Highmaul opened - aside from the people like Method. Crafted gear and BoE's were insanely expensive - yet the majority of their raid team, and i mean i literally saw half a dozen people personally - spent literally a million gold on BoE's. Literally.
If you want to argue about what's "mandatory", doing all 4 raid difficulties for both raids every week is pretty much up there - as well as clearing heroic 3 times per week so that people can bonus roll the boss that gives them the biggest statistical gain. You have to draw a line somewhere. There's a lot of small advantages to get and if you concern yourself that badly with the top 1-2% then the game will just become hell and it's not really balanced or designed for that - i'm not there and i don't want to be.
A lot of stuff seems silly to me - same boss multiple times on highest non-mythic difficulty that you can kill for every single one of your bonus roll pops, even 4x raid per week - but i'd expect people to be doing guild runs for heroic highmaul and normal BRF if they're progressing on mythic highmaul and hc brf, for example.
Anything to get away from the "Just go PUG it, we don't want to see you for 1 second longer than neccesary for the ~6-12hrs/week progression on max difficulty" mindset that's been driving me crazy since i started playing WoW again from WS.
Eh, Heroics were sort of mandatory in WotLK even for raiders.
Dungeons were "mandatory" for raiders during the first tier of Classic, TBC, WOTLK and Cataclysm. I can't speak for MOP, but they're irrelevant once the first tier of WOD has started - even the 660 gear from CM's, arguably compared to the rewards from those other expansions. I honestly like it that way - i don't think that dungeons should give opportunity to earn gear of the level of mythic 20 man - but i think that CM's for example should just drop a 660 or even 665 token on the last boss, with a limit of maybe once per day per dungeon, as one idea for making them relevant at least during the gear up process.
Overall i think we have some nice dungeons, i think we could have nicer experiences for ~5-12 players and i see no problem at all with them being hard and rewarding enough to sit AT LEAST between normal and heroic gear from the current "best" raid
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I think having to do every single raid boss to get the most badges/JP/VP is lame, but a random heroic giving you something to progress your character would be an alright thing.
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
On March 26 2015 08:38 lestye wrote:
I think having to do every single raid boss to get the most badges/JP/VP is lame, but a random heroic giving you something to progress your character would be an alright thing.
Not as lame as having to -PUG full clear- highmaul on LFR, normal and Heroic while progressing on Mythic for abrogator stones. That ring proc made more difference than a better pair of gloves would make any day
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can get legendary quest items only once per boss/week regardless of difficulty. I certainly didn't bother with LFR/NHC and I don't remember anyone in my guild finishing the ring significantly faster than others because they did something like that.
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Just got a mythic warforged bmc with a socket and chucked a 35 versatility gem in it to troll the fuck outa my guild :D It's the little things that are fun.
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Italy12248 Posts
On March 26 2015 10:20 nimbim wrote:
I think you can get legendary quest items only once per boss/week regardless of difficulty
Yep
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Just got rejected from a normal gruul kill lfm range dps 655+, I'm a 690 warlock. 
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
On March 26 2015 10:27 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 10:20 nimbim wrote:
I think you can get legendary quest items only once per boss/week regardless of difficulty Yep
Really? I talked about this several times and nobody corrected that. At the very least anyway you have to kill every boss on one difficulty or another, but that's not nearly as bad as all bosses four times over
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On March 26 2015 10:30 bo1b wrote:Just got rejected from a normal gruul kill lfm range dps 655+, I'm a 690 warlock.
I feel your pain, I'm 689 and got rejected from a heroic BRF group too...unfortunately, I'm also now starting my finals break from WoW, just as guild started mythic. Kinda sad about that.
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On March 26 2015 12:31 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 10:27 Teoita wrote:On March 26 2015 10:20 nimbim wrote:
I think you can get legendary quest items only once per boss/week regardless of difficulty Yep Really? I talked about this several times and nobody corrected that. At the very least anyway you have to kill every boss on one difficulty or another, but that's not nearly as bad as all bosses four times over
Yep, I would just queue lfr for all sections of highmaul (and now BRF) and then go farm ogre waystones until queue pops. By the time you finish one section your next queue pops and it repeats until you finish all 4 sections. Takes me about 1.5-2 hours a week to do all 4 sections of BRF for the tablet things. I know I could also just wait until the guild does it, but I get 3-4 pieces of epic gear to shard to help with enchanting mats and like 600 gold.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
Yeah my guild does LFR together just because we need augment runes for mythic raiding but we also did it for the runes back when we still needed them. Its pretty silly that LFR is required but 5 mans aren't.
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On March 26 2015 14:28 Drazerk wrote:
Yeah my guild does LFR together just because we need augment runes for mythic raiding but we also did it for the runes back when we still needed them. Its pretty silly that LFR is required but 5 mans aren't.
How does that work? 20 people just que up in a raid and kill each boss in about 3 seconds flat?
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On March 26 2015 14:49 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 14:28 Drazerk wrote:
Yeah my guild does LFR together just because we need augment runes for mythic raiding but we also did it for the runes back when we still needed them. Its pretty silly that LFR is required but 5 mans aren't. How does that work? 20 people just que up in a raid and kill each boss in about 3 seconds flat?
Yup we've killed Oregorger before he used his roll move... its a little silly when you have a bunch of mythic raiders in LFR
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On March 26 2015 08:18 Cyro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +but for at least some portion of the tier you were hurting your progression if you didn't collect those 14 extra Emblems each week. At the start of the expansion you were hurting your progression if a huge portion guild didn't have a Kyanos and a Candle, yet few people farmed the 200-500k a pop for them before Highmaul opened - aside from the people like Method. Crafted gear and BoE's were insanely expensive - yet the majority of their raid team, and i mean i literally saw half a dozen people personally - spent literally a million gold on BoE's. Literally. If you want to argue about what's "mandatory", doing all 4 raid difficulties for both raids every week is pretty much up there - as well as clearing heroic 3 times per week so that people can bonus roll the boss that gives them the biggest statistical gain. You have to draw a line somewhere. There's a lot of small advantages to get and if you concern yourself that badly with the top 1-2% then the game will just become hell and it's not really balanced or designed for that - i'm not there and i don't want to be. A lot of stuff seems silly to me - same boss multiple times on highest non-mythic difficulty that you can kill for every single one of your bonus roll pops, even 4x raid per week - but i'd expect people to be doing guild runs for heroic highmaul and normal BRF if they're progressing on mythic highmaul and hc brf, for example. Anything to get away from the "Just go PUG it, we don't want to see you for 1 second longer than neccesary for the ~6-12hrs/week progression on max difficulty" mindset that's been driving me crazy since i started playing WoW again from WS. Eh, Heroics were sort of mandatory in WotLK even for raiders. Dungeons were "mandatory" for raiders during the first tier of Classic, TBC, WOTLK and Cataclysm. I can't speak for MOP, but they're irrelevant once the first tier of WOD has started - even the 660 gear from CM's, arguably compared to the rewards from those other expansions. I honestly like it that way - i don't think that dungeons should give opportunity to earn gear of the level of mythic 20 man - but i think that CM's for example should just drop a 660 or even 665 token on the last boss, with a limit of maybe once per day per dungeon, as one idea for making them relevant at least during the gear up process. Overall i think we have some nice dungeons, i think we could have nicer experiences for ~5-12 players and i see no problem at all with them being hard and rewarding enough to sit AT LEAST between normal and heroic gear from the current "best" raid
I was primarily explaining the history of JP/VP and how they relate to dungeons, hence why I challenged Teoita's assertion that Heroics weren't mandatory in WotLK. Whether or not Heroics should be mandatory or whether other mandatory mechanics make any sense (SEE: Augment Runes) is another matter altogether.
On yet another subject the "just PUG it" problem can be traced back to WotLK, and it's not simple to solve. Prior to the LFD tool players relied heavily on well-curated friends lists and their guilds to complete Heroics, as PUGing was arduous, time consuming, and often unsuccessful. Once you could simply queue for Heroics, complete with bonus damage/healing to offset the failure rate, that was no longer necessary. "Just PUG it" syndrome is one of the resulting phenomena, and because you can't simply remove LFD or LFR at this point designing a solution is extremely difficult.
The fundamental question is, "How do we replicate the compelling force of the simple adversity of pre-LFD Heroics without actually making them as arduous, annoying, and failure-prone?" Whoever has a good answer to that question should probably be building the next big MMO and not posting here.
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Should call it dungeon finder lol, LFD is what one of my female friends who played wow used to say when she'd go out to get laid. Yeah.....I prefer to call it dungeon finder.
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Fairly sure that demo is the best designed spec in the game atm.
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EPT
