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On April 27 2016 00:17 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 00:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote:
I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy". Because such a license would infer a certain level of approval by Blizzard and as such the actions and status of the server would reflect upon Blizzard's reputation. Yeah that makes sense. Though Blizzard could just establish some ground rules and say "don't do this and do that, or the server gets shut down". Something along those lines. I really think there's room for compromise here, only Blizzard isn't looking.
Can it be done? I certainly think it can. But as we discussed many pages ago (again have to point to Nony's excellent post) Blizzard, at its heart, probably doesn't want this to succeed and it trying to find a way to appease people without having to tell them to fuck off.
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On April 27 2016 00:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 00:17 Incognoto wrote:On April 27 2016 00:10 Gorsameth wrote:On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote:
I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy". Because such a license would infer a certain level of approval by Blizzard and as such the actions and status of the server would reflect upon Blizzard's reputation. Yeah that makes sense. Though Blizzard could just establish some ground rules and say "don't do this and do that, or the server gets shut down". Something along those lines. I really think there's room for compromise here, only Blizzard isn't looking. Can it be done? I certainly think it can. But as we discussed many pages ago (again have to point to Nony's excellent post) Blizzard, at its heart, probably doesn't want this to succeed and it trying to find a way to appease people without having to tell them to fuck off.
Yeah that's probably more realistic. In which case, blizzard suks
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No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
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On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote:
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
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On April 27 2016 02:47 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote:
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though. Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack. This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
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On April 27 2016 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 02:47 ref4 wrote:On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote:
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though. Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack. This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico. "You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented. Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say).
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On April 27 2016 02:59 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 27 2016 02:47 ref4 wrote:On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote:
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though. Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack. This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico. "You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented. Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing. Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say).
Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better".
If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough').
Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players.
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On April 27 2016 03:07 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 02:59 Roggay wrote:On April 27 2016 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 27 2016 02:47 ref4 wrote:On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote:
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though. Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack. This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico. "You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented. Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing. Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say). Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better". If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough'). Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players.
This may or may not be the case, but you have zero actual data to support your claim. So all you do is project what You personally feel about Vanilla onto everyone else. You can predict all you want, but all we know is that there is a large amount of people that do ask to play legacy WoW.
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Not only out loud, to even think it could be the case is shortsighted if you don't realize how different both games are nowadays.
I am sure there are plenty of people who would enjoy it just for the nostalgia trip and then quit, but it has already be proven that's not the only thing and that it has the power to retain a playerbase decent enough which many actual MMORPGs would hope for. I mean, i was playing wildstar before and after the F2P, and the world never felt so alive as nostalrius lol. And it only has 2 servers (well, 4 after F2P, but they had to merge them again shortly after... and the EU pvp server is a ghost town anyways).
And that was a private server. People tend to use that as an argument that it was because it was "free". They should take a look at MMORPGs retail servers and their pirate counterparts populations to think about that assessment again. Being official has more traction on a MMORPG as you are guaranteed to not lose your characters.
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On April 27 2016 03:40 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 03:07 Gorsameth wrote:On April 27 2016 02:59 Roggay wrote:On April 27 2016 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 27 2016 02:47 ref4 wrote:On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote:
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though. Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack. This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico. "You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented. Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing. Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say). Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better". If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough'). Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players. This may or may not be the case, but you have zero actual data to support your claim. So all you do is project what You personally feel about Vanilla onto everyone else. You can predict all you want, but all we know is that there is a large amount of people that do ask to play legacy WoW.
I actually sort of agree with gorsemeth on this one. I think rune scape had a similar problem when rune scape 2 came out. People voiced their complaint about wanting original runescape 1 back. This it was 2 version of game. Few month afterwards, runescape 1 population was pretty Mich dead and most people were in runescape 2. Not saying that wow will definitely follow same path but blizzard need to be careful cause it may cause permanent damage and if what they say about losing the magic code therefore having to redo a lot of work, then it might just end up being a large waste of time that could be spent else where developing content
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Missed this interview with Mark Kern
http://www.pcinvasion.com/ex-world-of-warcraft-dev-explains-blizzard-vanilla
Let’s put that in perspective. When we planned World of Warcraft, we only expected 1M sold and 500k active. And yet..and yet that was enough to bet the whole company on making WoW. It was the most expensive game Blizzard had ever made, and a huge risk. And yet, we would have been happy with 1M accounts back then. So I don’t understand this talk about 850k account not being worthwhile. That’s bunk. And you know what? With Blizzard officially behind legacy servers, you would see far more than 1M account re-activations. If a relatively unknown private server can reach 850k, then think what putting the Blizzard name behind it could do…far, far more.
As for 150k active, my understanding is that was measured over a 10 day window. The industry standard for measuring active is 30 days. I bet the 30 day number is higher, but even at 150k, during vanilla WoW we only expected around 450k active subscribers, and it would have been a huge success. Nostalrius is not that far off from what would have been a home run for us at the time. Of course, we ended up doing much, much more than that, but I’m talking about what we would have been thrilled with in the beginning and been very profitable.
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Blizzard is also owned by activision now though, so what they would have been happy with when WoW launched and what they need to make shareholders happy now are likely completely different.
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On April 27 2016 04:31 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 03:40 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:On April 27 2016 03:07 Gorsameth wrote:On April 27 2016 02:59 Roggay wrote:On April 27 2016 02:51 Gorsameth wrote:On April 27 2016 02:47 ref4 wrote:On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote:
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though. Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack. This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico. "You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented. Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing. Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say). Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better". If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough'). Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players. This may or may not be the case, but you have zero actual data to support your claim. So all you do is project what You personally feel about Vanilla onto everyone else. You can predict all you want, but all we know is that there is a large amount of people that do ask to play legacy WoW. I actually sort of agree with gorsemeth on this one. I think rune scape had a similar problem when rune scape 2 came out. People voiced their complaint about wanting original runescape 1 back. This it was 2 version of game. Few month afterwards, runescape 1 population was pretty Mich dead and most people were in runescape 2. Not saying that wow will definitely follow same path but blizzard need to be careful cause it may cause permanent damage and if what they say about losing the magic code therefore having to redo a lot of work, then it might just end up being a large waste of time that could be spent else where developing content
There was more to it than that.
OS Runescape had growth pains. I can't remember exactly why that was but some things didn't work right so people got sick of it.
Fast forward today and OS Runescape has consistently more players in it than RS 3 does.
Even with all of that WOW has an extraordinarily passionate user base as a lot of the players that want legacy grew up with it and remember the good times they had with it. Most of them are actually able to articulate exactly why this is the case.
Even then... You don't tell people what they want. The devs can think that... But you never say it out loud. People don't like being told what they will and won't like. I think this case in particular is erroneous because of the way WOW has changed since vanilla. It has changed not just in fundamental game play aspects but in community as well.
Also pristine sounds terrible. You'd have to remove so much it would be hilarious and I don't think WOTLK functions without phasing or flying mounts... Both of which need to be gotten rid off to get a Vanilla/TBC feel.
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I been reading the reddit topic about mark kern's video and all about this whole shit show. There was a really good comment from a software dev there laying it down just why the fuck it's not feasible for blizzard from a technical standpoint to do this thing (this post).
Still, if it somehow would come to pass that Blizzard made genuine legacy vanilla servers for us to play, on whatever patch in the cycle ever, I don't know or care, I would play that shit. I'd try get couple of my old friends who used to play with me back then to experience it all again, no doubt. And I recall, very well, all the problems the game had, all the QoL changes we'd miss now and all that. Still would play the hell out of it.
But I also realize it's probably never going to happen and I can cope with that just fine. Gonna be here when Legion hits and hope the raiding content is as good as WoD's was. WoD has been shat on for various reasons, but nobody can objectively say the raiding content wasn't top notch.
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Also pristine sounds terrible. You'd have to remove so much it would be hilarious and I don't think WOTLK functions without phasing or flying mounts... Both of which need to be gotten rid off to get a Vanilla/TBC feel.
Pristine missed most of the point IMO. Leveling in the 4.0+ world with characters that have been affected by stat squish, 5.0, 6.0 and 7.0 is way beyond unrecognisable compared to classic and TBC leveling.
Without leveling, without old character stats and without old content you don't have 80% of what makes a legacy server tick.
WoD has been shat on for various reasons, but nobody can objectively say the raiding content wasn't top notch.
It definately had its problems that make it not the best WoW expansion for raiding, IMO - WOTLK is higher up for me. Didn't play enough of cata & pandaland to judge those.
Top of the list being rate of designed consumption vs production - there were 2 tiers created for 21 months of raiding, yet it was deliberately set up for you to walk in and kill every boss on launch week - if not on "your" raiding difficulty, then on a difficulty or 2 below because that was the best way to progress. Tier 17 normal gear was way way way better than any pre-raid gear - like hey, come get your free 1.5x damage boost. Tier 18 normal gear was better than mixed t17 heroic/mythic gear.
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For the record, Mark Kern is the guy who ran Red 5 studios, who were responsible for the disaster that was Firefall. A game I was hyped for, tried to get others hyped for, but crumbled under its own ambition. Chief among failures was the idea that they could integrate feedback in very early in the dev cycle and change the nature of the game based on feedback. The lesson they learned: The loudest voices are always the negative ones and they have no idea what the fuck they want.
I just kind of wish that he took that lesson to heart before saying this stuff.
On April 27 2016 10:07 daemir wrote:I been reading the reddit topic about mark kern's video and all about this whole shit show. There was a really good comment from a software dev there laying it down just why the fuck it's not feasible for blizzard from a technical standpoint to do this thing ( this post).
That's pretty much what I've been saying since the beginning: tl;dr, you can't integrate vanilla stuff with Battle.net without massive cost and it HAS to be done through Battle.net.
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I agree that Pristine won't fix levelling, at least it probably won't. It's not going to change the fact that WoW isn't a game about levelling anymore. However, I'm very interested it for the end-game feel. I think it would feel more like Wrath. Wrath's levelling was super faceroll but it still had an enjoyable community and end-game.
Removing LFR/LFG and cross realm is like 60% of the problem for me. the insane gear resets is probably like 30% of it, but LFR/LFG gone fixes a part of that.
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i've watched kungen's stream here and there the past few days. my question would be how would it be fun when u know every single fight already? and that's one of his main complaints about raiding nowadays is that there is a book telling u what the spells do, but that's exactly what would happen with vanilla wow, except not only do u know the spells u also already know the strats without even doing the fight once.
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On April 27 2016 11:11 zev318 wrote:
i've watched kungen's stream here and there the past few days. my question would be how would it be fun when u know every single fight already? and that's one of his main complaints about raiding nowadays is that there is a book telling u what the spells do, but that's exactly what would happen with vanilla wow, except not only do u know the spells u also already know the strats without even doing the fight once.
Vanilla & TBC were much less about raiding than current expansions. Something like 90% of players didn't even raid in TBC and far less raided in Vanilla - that's not what made those expansions great, it was just one piece of the cake.
For those players who already killed everything 30 times, it's less fun. I imagine that there's a huge market for raiders that want to experience older content that they did not experience at the time. For those that don't want to raid, there's a lot.
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Less than 1% of the WoW population entered Naxx in Vanilla. I only did it on the PTR myself, the attunement was a nightmare if you weren't already exalted with AD (I was Revered) and involved a ton of gold and farming. Not to mention you couldn't do the fights without AQ gear, which you couldn't really do well in without BWL gear which you really needed MC gear for, all of which you had to get attuned to with varying degrees of difficulty.
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EPT
