ok so my best memories are from wow vanila (MC, BWL, naxx, wsg and so on) including instances and mechanics, I have been in hardcore raiding guild before but nothing compares to going through mc first time with green and blue items :D
anyways theres this http://vanillagaming.org/ pretty good vanilla wow server I was wondering if response was huge and we could get 40+ ppl maybe it would be cool to give it a shot casualy, going from 0-60-70lvls was fun as fuck for me when I first played and I would sure as hell pick different race and class to experience everything anew
I know plenty of ppl loved vanilla, let me know if maybe you would wanna be a part of this and do some casual raiding or pvp I can propably muster 5ppl myself to do this
also I really wish blizzard would make some vanilla 0-60 levels full legal, that would be so awesome to race with other guilds for progress ; P pitty its not gonna happen
I must say i loved vanilla.I have immediately dropped wow at first expansion and never looked back :D Maybe i would give it a shot only if: there is no xp boost and faster droprates and all the bullcrap that soooooo many vanilla wow server used to have.
On June 07 2013 23:37 pokerface wrote: I must say i loved vanilla.I have immediately dropped wow at first expansion and never looked back :D Maybe i would give it a shot only if: there is no xp boost and faster droprates and all the bullcrap that soooooo many vanilla wow server used to have.
From website: " Use notepad to open "Realmlist.wtf" which is located in your World of Warcraft installation folder. Overwrite all of the text in the file with this Vanillagaming offers you balanced rates; 15x XP rates to give you a slightly faster levelling experience, but not so fast so you can still experience vanilla content. Regular drop rates of 1x, with gold at 2x to help keep up with levelling while not breaking end-game economy. Reputation rate is blizzlike (1x)."
Doesn't sound like too much, idk I might give it a shot just for nostalgias sake
Hm 40 man raiding and all the things that went with at the time (mass farming, mass afking during the raid, raids being easy except naxx given you don't have an half AFK raid) might get old quickly. Same for the world of one shot PvP. Even leveling was awful at the time, it was just a very new and awesome game then but I'm pretty sure people won't get the same enjoyment now. Privates are cool though, it's always fun to see/remember how the game was at the time, but I don't think you will be able to get 40 people to raid, let alone keeping them playing For my part I loved BC and WOTLK but playing it on private servers just didn't feel the same. Good luck though!
On June 07 2013 23:43 jeeeeohn wrote: Also, TBC was really good; and Wrath had fantastic quests and zones in general.
The general trend with WoW has been that the solo content is improving but the dungeons have gone down the drain ever since Wrath. I swear, with enough conditioning I could actually level a priest through dungeons while asleep. There is no substance there anymore, thanks to heirloom gear and Luck of the Draw.
A small part of me is tempted. The rest of me says don't be an idiot.
Anyways, I think getting 40 people to raid in vanilla will be very, very hard. It seems hard enough just to get people together for real WoW and for Vanilla... there is no such thing as casual raiding. Casual raiding in Vanilla just meant you were slow. Progression still took a whole lot of time and a whole lot of farming.
Not to mention all the hard checks they put into the game, you weren't going to progress in BWL unless you farmed MC for your 40. Then there are attunement quests, etc. etc. People nostalgic for vanilla just overlook some of the really annoying aspects of getting 40 people together. Oh you got a new member? Gotta run MC again for the 500th time so we can progress in BWL.
That stagnant progression was soul crushing the moment you realized what you were doing.Your state of mind went literally from Yeah we downed Ragnaros! to Fuck we need to kill Ragnaros for someone's T2. That shit wasn't exciting.
TBC was the high point where Blizzard found a balance. Haven't raided enough in anything past that expansion to comment.
On June 08 2013 04:56 Judicator wrote: Not to mention all the hard checks they put into the game, you weren't going to progress in BWL unless you farmed MC for your 40. Then there are attunement quests, etc. etc. People nostalgic for vanilla just overlook some of the really annoying aspects of getting 40 people together. Oh you got a new member? Gotta run MC again for the 500th time so we can progress in BWL.
That stagnant progression was soul crushing the moment you realized what you were doing.Your state of mind went literally from Yeah we downed Ragnaros! to Fuck we need to kill Ragnaros for someone's T2. That shit wasn't exciting.
TBC was the high point where Blizzard found a balance. Haven't raided enough in anything past that expansion to comment.
Yeap spot on hahaha.
The MC attunement really held shit back.
and the fact that you were basically on the bones of your arse all the time unless you got lucky with a BOE epic.
Who ever says they had fun in molten core is either shamelessly lying or his brain is tainted by nostalgia Molten core was one of the worst fucking experiences ever and the only thing that makes is worth it is actually finishing it and looking back at the days of total bullshit that was farming and progression you had to go through. I have no idea who in his right mind wants to go back and raid molten core for fun
On June 08 2013 04:56 Judicator wrote: Not to mention all the hard checks they put into the game, you weren't going to progress in BWL unless you farmed MC for your 40. Then there are attunement quests, etc. etc. People nostalgic for vanilla just overlook some of the really annoying aspects of getting 40 people together. Oh you got a new member? Gotta run MC again for the 500th time so we can progress in BWL.
That stagnant progression was soul crushing the moment you realized what you were doing.Your state of mind went literally from Yeah we downed Ragnaros! to Fuck we need to kill Ragnaros for someone's T2. That shit wasn't exciting.
TBC was the high point where Blizzard found a balance. Haven't raided enough in anything past that expansion to comment.
Cracked Servers are always shit. I would love to play Vanilla/TBC again, but it does not work if its on a cracked server where you play with 80 others at max. We have to accept that Hardcore MMOs are dead. The success of WoW killed the Game itself for Hardcore-Gamers.
On June 08 2013 22:21 thezanursic wrote: Whats server population like?
Honestly I'd prefer a TBC private though. I personally think that was the pinnacle of raiding.
Feenix private server is the place for you then. it's very active on horde side, several guilds are fully geared tier4/5 and the leveling is 14x so it won't take so long to reach max. www.wow-one.com
i had fun up until end of wotlk ca. cata only lasted 2 months for me and i'm not touching MoP. I had the most fun in TBC when i was hardcore raiding, defintely the prime years for me, 2007-2008 late'ish
I have played on vanilla servers (feenix Server). Its not as good though as nostalgia makes people believe. If nowadays a game like WoW vanilla came out we would discard it pretty fast. Biggest problem is vanilla WoW was barely about skill but only investing huge amounts of time. PvP was about zerging, raid encounters were much less complex. Beginning of TBC was my favorite time with the demanding 5 man heroics.
But yeah if anyone wants to play vanilla I would recomend the Feenix server.
As noted already, Feenix is hands down the best and most populated Vanilla WoW private server. Scripting for the most part is pretty well done and as close to Blizz-like as youll get.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
I've played a bit on the Emerald Dream server, which is I believe the most popular blizz-like vanilla server. Got to mid 20s or so and did Dead Mines and all that. It was fun, a little bit buggy but overall a nice trip down memory lane.
There's a blizz-like TBC server coming up called Corecraft that I believe many people are excited for. I'm definitely going to check it out when they finally open up shop
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
Crowd control, grenades&engineer allowed you to do amazing stuff if you played your cards right, specially mages, locks and rogues.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
CC in WoW is at an all time high with panda land. The amount of cc's every class gets is just incredible. Most of them being instant cast. The only reason burst doesn't exist is because heals take .3 seconds to cast a full heal.
Not the amount, the duration, All CCs are capped to 10s or lower, there were little to no caps or Diminishing Returns in Vanilla.
If I remember correctly as a Warlock with T1/T2 gear I could solo 3 people on my own as I could fear one, seduce one(with no DR) and Death Coil 2shot someone with Immolate conflagrate.
Vanilla was nice but filled with nostalgia, the grinding was absolutely atrocious.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
CC in WoW is at an all time high with panda land. The amount of cc's every class gets is just incredible. Most of them being instant cast. The only reason burst doesn't exist is because heals take .3 seconds to cast a full heal.
Thats not what he meant, the importance of each ability used was far far more important in vanilla. Even in TBC the spam started. In Vanilla a rogue win a fight with 1 or 2 cds, in TBC you kinda had to use your full repertoir to bring down the target, due to mitigation, hp scale etc. It all did add up.
DR was 1/2 of last duration on vanilla, but they weren't capped (you could be on a poly a lot of time, a full minute if i remember correctly). I was a lock, and yes that was possible Kipsate, but it got nerfed before T2 gear so they shared DR (goddamned DrakeDog had to do that video lol). The thing about lock, while having decent CC it wasn't the mage powerhouse, was the negative resistences making shadowbolts crit for 3k pretty often (my max was 5k).
Death coil CC arrived with the nerf to negative resistences, before that was just an instant that healed you with a 10min cooldown or something like that, good thing the negative resistences applied to it tho.
They added DRs but the overall durations were still much longer, and there were less ways to negate or break a CC.
I'm not saying it was necessarily better or fair (a frost mage killing a T3 warrior with only rank 1 frostbolts or going AP/Shatter with ToEP/ZHC and doing an uninterruptable 6k damage to someone was surely not fair), just saying an individual had much more potential killing power.
People zerged a lot, but a small, organized and well geared team had a much greater ability to hold off the average same-level zerg than they do now.
On June 09 2013 00:41 Jibba wrote: They added DRs but the overall durations were still much longer, and there were less ways to negate or break a CC.
I'm not saying it was necessarily better or fair (a frost mage killing a T3 warrior with only rank 1 frostbolts or going AP/Shatter with ToEP/ZHC and doing an uninterruptable 6k damage to someone was surely not fair), just saying an individual had much more potential killing power.
People zerged a lot, but a small, organized and well geared team had a much greater ability to hold off the average same-level zerg than they do now.
And yes, Molten Core sucked.
I think that has a lot more to do with how watered down the classes have become. Every class has CC's every class can do massive damage, every class has some sort of tanking CD's. One just does it with tornadoes while another does it with daggers kind of thing.
PvP was killed with WotLK. Last time I had fun in WoW was end on TBC. And after Ulduar I quit the Game completly. But Stunlocks were fun in Vanilla. :D I even solo'ed these Elite Mobs that dropped the Priest EpicQuest Item in Wintersprings back then with only Stunlock - so much fun. Things like that are just not possible anymore in MMOs.
Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Well i will try it out, even if i get bored later on, i don't give a crap. Levelling on contested zones withouth flyings mounts is just that awesome (stranglehorn valley, here i come).
On June 09 2013 00:51 Vault Boy wrote: PvP was killed with WotLK. Last time I had fun in WoW was end on TBC. And after Ulduar I quit the Game completly. But Stunlocks were fun in Vanilla. :D .
Contested pvp died mostly on TBC because of flying mounts, but dungeon finder was the nail in the coffin.
I loved vanilla. And even comments aside I loved mc and bwl the most. I think it was more because in vanilla I was in an actual guild (that was also one of the top on the server) so I was lucky to experience all of the game content. I even loved the old 55-60 dungeon s and grinding the elements set for my sham hah. Though I do admit once you ran the end content and had it down it became less fun. However I have never had as much fun conquering and exploring game content than I did in the end game content with my old guild.
On June 08 2013 22:21 thezanursic wrote: Whats server population like?
Honestly I'd prefer a TBC private though. I personally think that was the pinnacle of raiding.
Feenix private server is the place for you then. it's very active on horde side, several guilds are fully geared tier4/5 and the leveling is 14x so it won't take so long to reach max. www.wow-one.com
i had fun up until end of wotlk ca. cata only lasted 2 months for me and i'm not touching MoP. I had the most fun in TBC when i was hardcore raiding, defintely the prime years for me, 2007-2008 late'ish
I started just before Zul'aman. And was mostly just REALLY bad at PvP and ran a couple of pugs in Kara. In WOTLK I started getting decent, but I still didn't have time to commit to raiding, I did get a couple of offers to join good guilds, but I didn't have the time to raid regularly as I said, but then in Cata I finally found time and joined a guild, but kind of missed the queue for the A line-up and mostly sat on the bench so I quit...
So what's the Alliance pop like? If I played I would most likely play Horde, but having a healthy Alliance population is always nice.
On June 08 2013 22:56 TheKefka wrote: Who ever says they had fun in molten core is either shamelessly lying or his brain is tainted by nostalgia Molten core was one of the worst fucking experiences ever and the only thing that makes is worth it is actually finishing it and looking back at the days of total bullshit that was farming and progression you had to go through. I have no idea who in his right mind wants to go back and raid molten core for fun
On June 08 2013 04:56 Judicator wrote: Not to mention all the hard checks they put into the game, you weren't going to progress in BWL unless you farmed MC for your 40. Then there are attunement quests, etc. etc. People nostalgic for vanilla just overlook some of the really annoying aspects of getting 40 people together. Oh you got a new member? Gotta run MC again for the 500th time so we can progress in BWL.
That stagnant progression was soul crushing the moment you realized what you were doing.Your state of mind went literally from Yeah we downed Ragnaros! to Fuck we need to kill Ragnaros for someone's T2. That shit wasn't exciting.
TBC was the high point where Blizzard found a balance. Haven't raided enough in anything past that expansion to comment.
yes,yes and yes
Molten core was horrible because of all the trash mobs you had to clear. Other than that MC wasn't that bad...
On June 08 2013 23:17 Redox wrote: I have played on vanilla servers (feenix Server). Its not as good though as nostalgia makes people believe. If nowadays a game like WoW vanilla came out we would discard it pretty fast. Biggest problem is vanilla WoW was barely about skill but only investing huge amounts of time. PvP was about zerging, raid encounters were much less complex. Beginning of TBC was my favorite time with the demanding 5 man heroics.
But yeah if anyone wants to play vanilla I would recomend the Feenix server.
Well I personally think that playing 1 more 5 hour game of Alterac valley would be worth it. It obviously gets boring... like the 4th time, but that first experience is STILL so much better.
Why did they remove those epic quests, NPCs and shit from alterac anyway?
I always wanted a battleground that would closely resemble a WC3 match. Building fortifications, calling reinforcements with whatever resourcess you've acquired, maybe even building towers at pre-set locations etc etc.
All of this is obviously really hard to do especially for such an old game like wow, but a man can dream. Can't he? Seriously if an MMO ever incorporates as a really complex battleground system, I'll go play it immediatly.
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
If the population was high and I thought it would be around for at least a few years, I would join up in a heartbeat. But, I really don't think that's the case.
Yeah, if there were 500 people playing this i'd jump on it, but im not going to be 1 of the 50 that waste their time because it never gets off the ground
The thing is, with 500 people on a vanilla private server, you know they all mean business, they're all going to want to do shit, they're all going to be motivated, and if they'r enot, they'll be motivated by the other tryhards
I'm playing on a vanilla (french) private server at the moment, and raiding with my guild the evening. It's really really fun to have a guild and progress through the raids again. The PvP however is really bad in vanilla (getting one shotted or one shot someone, pvp trinket does nothing, lack of abilities etc...), and when I want to do PvP I go to the Feenix TBC server where I have some well geared PvP chars.
On June 09 2013 02:48 Roggay wrote: I'm playing on a vanilla (french) private server at the moment, and raiding with my guild the evening. It's really really fun to have a guild and progress through the raids again. The PvP however is really bad in vanilla (getting one shotted or one shot someone, pvp trinket does nothing, lack of abilities etc...), and when I want to do PvP I go to the Feenix TBC server where I have some well geared PvP chars.
So how many players does a server like this have?
I looked on feenix and vanilla gaming and i found no substantial proof of what number their active player base is.
We set one up a few months ago for wotlk. We are a group of people who usually play other things and sometimes easily reach 10-15 players. Suffice to say, it did not go well for raiding. My god, I wish some of my friends never even showed up.
On June 09 2013 02:48 Roggay wrote: I'm playing on a vanilla (french) private server at the moment, and raiding with my guild the evening. It's really really fun to have a guild and progress through the raids again. The PvP however is really bad in vanilla (getting one shotted or one shot someone, pvp trinket does nothing, lack of abilities etc...), and when I want to do PvP I go to the Feenix TBC server where I have some well geared PvP chars.
So how many players does a server like this have?
I looked on feenix and vanilla gaming and i found no substantial proof of what number their active player base is.
Feenix has the most afaik (their TBC server usually has 2400+ people in the evening for example, never played their vanilla one). My vanilla server is french so it has less people, between 700-800 the evening.
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
Not really, there are vast areas of the map where there is literally no point to go there other than one quest that starts from a chain in a different zone. Add to it you're walking at slow ass walking speed for the majority of it (and can't run past monsters until you get a mount, so you have a bunch of pointless fights) and it gets really annoying.
As far as questing, let me just point out one of the less egregious examples: Ragefire Chasm had quests from every major Horde city that you had to run around and get before you did it. It was like that for nearly every dungeon, and even some zones didn't have very many quests IN them, but had quests to GO TO them.
I've been semi-interested in playing on some WoW private server (I don't have Pandaria, and I won't buy it), but everytime I realize it probably won't be as great as I imagine. I'm quite a casual player and while I would like to raid etc, I doubt there's even close to enough people on private servers to find mature casual raiding guilds.
On June 08 2013 22:21 thezanursic wrote: Whats server population like?
Honestly I'd prefer a TBC private though. I personally think that was the pinnacle of raiding.
Feenix private server is the place for you then. it's very active on horde side, several guilds are fully geared tier4/5 and the leveling is 14x so it won't take so long to reach max. www.wow-one.com
i had fun up until end of wotlk ca. cata only lasted 2 months for me and i'm not touching MoP. I had the most fun in TBC when i was hardcore raiding, defintely the prime years for me, 2007-2008 late'ish
I started just before Zul'aman. And was mostly just REALLY bad at PvP and ran a couple of pugs in Kara. In WOTLK I started getting decent, but I still didn't have time to commit to raiding, I did get a couple of offers to join good guilds, but I didn't have the time to raid regularly as I said, but then in Cata I finally found time and joined a guild, but kind of missed the queue for the A line-up and mostly sat on the bench so I quit...
So what's the Alliance pop like? If I played I would most likely play Horde, but having a healthy Alliance population is always nice.
I would say horde population is the biggest, so rolling alliance would be the best choice balance wise, but it's all up to you. better AH economy and finding groups should be on horde side. you can add me as well if you feel like it. i'm Rendes
On June 09 2013 05:29 Tobberoth wrote: I've been semi-interested in playing on some WoW private server (I don't have Pandaria, and I won't buy it), but everytime I realize it probably won't be as great as I imagine. I'm quite a casual player and while I would like to raid etc, I doubt there's even close to enough people on private servers to find mature casual raiding guilds.
Dunno, 2.4k players on a TBC server at peak sounds like a hell of alot of players to me, definitely enough for one server.
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
Not really, there are vast areas of the map where there is literally no point to go there other than one quest that starts from a chain in a different zone. Add to it you're walking at slow ass walking speed for the majority of it (and can't run past monsters until you get a mount, so you have a bunch of pointless fights) and it gets really annoying.
As far as questing, let me just point out one of the less egregious examples: Ragefire Chasm had quests from every major Horde city that you had to run around and get before you did it. It was like that for nearly every dungeon, and even some zones didn't have very many quests IN them, but had quests to GO TO them.
That wasn't as bad as you think, it was bad for new players, but it wasn't that bad once sites like allakhazam/wowhead came out where you can start mapping your quest lines out and minimize your travel.
All the pointless shit is what makes it great imo. Its bullshit, clearly and bad design / shitty gameplay, but its what makes it great.
I cant explain it, just having to run from here to there, there to here and experience the world (and actually have to make effort, like those "pointless fights") made it come more alive if you ask me. Having to work for your shit (even if a "pointless grind") held alot of satisfaction, although vanilla WoW may have been stretching limits to what people could handle, not many can handle it again in this day and age of pansie games
I much prefer it to AFKing in dungeon/raid finder queue and doing daily quests that go in a perfect circle before buying my optimised buff items from auction house and logging off untill raid time.
I might check this out..but 14x servers sound shit to me, levelling is a huge part of the process and i dont want it 14x quicker. Im yet to find a 1x server (or any in fact) to boast such a playerbase of 2.4k people peak. If anyone knows of one, let me know ya?
After trying out some of these vanilla/TBC servers I realized it was the community who made the game awesome in the first place. Keep in mind that I have never been a good PvP player, so I can only speak from a PvE point of view.
From a mechanical standpoint the game evolved with every xpack. Almost all the specs are viable and ability rotations are fun and have some depth (as opposed to mashing the Shadowbolt/Fireball/Lifebloom/etc button).
The community is however really bad and I mostly blame cross realm Dungeon Finder and too easy leveling for that. Back when you were limited to your own server being a jackass all the time only bit you in the rear in the long run. Right now it does not really matter, as chances to meet the people you run dungeons/LFR with again are really slim. You would have to either roll a new character (took a long time) or get a name change (implemented later on, but I believe there was a website to "track" these people).
Easier leveling also means new players don't learn their class properly. Is grinding 100 basilisks (that apparently have no brain) boring? Yes. Will you have "OH SHI-!" moments during that time and be forced to kite/CC/throw everything your class can do to survive? Yes. Heirlooms were a great way to speed up that process for players who wanted to roll a new char, but it got a bit out of hand.
I really hate the new 1-60 leveling. Sure, it is fun but you only see a fraction of the world. You go to a new area, complete 10-15 quests, do a dungeon since you queue while doing said quests and then you outlevel the area and need to move to the next. You don't even get to fully explore that area!
On June 09 2013 06:18 Capped wrote: All the pointless shit is what makes it great imo. Its bullshit, clearly and bad design / shitty gameplay, but its what makes it great.
I cant explain it, just having to run from here to there, there to here and experience the world (and actually have to make effort, like those "pointless fights") made it come more alive if you ask me. Having to work for your shit (even if a "pointless grind") held alot of satisfaction, although vanilla WoW may have been stretching limits to what people could handle, not many can handle it again in this day and age of pansie games
I much prefer it to AFKing in dungeon/raid finder queue and doing daily quests that go in a perfect circle before buying my optimised buff items from auction house and logging off untill raid time.
I might check this out..but 14x servers sound shit to me, levelling is a huge part of the process and i dont want it 14x quicker. Im yet to find a 1x server (or any in fact) to boast such a playerbase of 2.4k people peak. If anyone knows of one, let me know ya?
The 1x vanilla server of Feenix is pretty big afaik.
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
Not really, there are vast areas of the map where there is literally no point to go there other than one quest that starts from a chain in a different zone. Add to it you're walking at slow ass walking speed for the majority of it (and can't run past monsters until you get a mount, so you have a bunch of pointless fights) and it gets really annoying.
As far as questing, let me just point out one of the less egregious examples: Ragefire Chasm had quests from every major Horde city that you had to run around and get before you did it. It was like that for nearly every dungeon, and even some zones didn't have very many quests IN them, but had quests to GO TO them.
That wasn't as bad as you think, it was bad for new players, but it wasn't that bad once sites like allakhazam/wowhead came out where you can start mapping your quest lines out and minimize your travel.
Very true, but it's still culture shock to see such a step back in game design. Say what you want about Wrath/Cata, their leveling and questing were far superior to anything that came before it.
Also, got on the server advertised in this post and was lvl 5 before I finished the lvl 1 Kobold killing quest in Elwynn...yeah, fuck it.
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
Not really, there are vast areas of the map where there is literally no point to go there other than one quest that starts from a chain in a different zone. Add to it you're walking at slow ass walking speed for the majority of it (and can't run past monsters until you get a mount, so you have a bunch of pointless fights) and it gets really annoying.
As far as questing, let me just point out one of the less egregious examples: Ragefire Chasm had quests from every major Horde city that you had to run around and get before you did it. It was like that for nearly every dungeon, and even some zones didn't have very many quests IN them, but had quests to GO TO them.
That wasn't as bad as you think, it was bad for new players, but it wasn't that bad once sites like allakhazam/wowhead came out where you can start mapping your quest lines out and minimize your travel.
Very true, but it's still culture shock to see such a step back in game design. Say what you want about Wrath/Cata, their leveling and questing were far superior to anything that came before it.
Also, got on the server advertised in this post and was lvl 5 before I finished the lvl 1 Kobold killing quest in Elwynn...yeah, fuck it.
Why do people like to level up? I dont understand, it takes way too much time. Its fun the first time on retail, but its really annoying after that.
On June 09 2013 02:48 Roggay wrote: I'm playing on a vanilla (french) private server at the moment, and raiding with my guild the evening. It's really really fun to have a guild and progress through the raids again. The PvP however is really bad in vanilla (getting one shotted or one shot someone, pvp trinket does nothing, lack of abilities etc...), and when I want to do PvP I go to the Feenix TBC server where I have some well geared PvP chars.
So how many players does a server like this have?
I looked on feenix and vanilla gaming and i found no substantial proof of what number their active player base is.
Feenix peak hours is usually around 14-1600 people. Every raid is pugged besides AQ40/Naxx, mostly on the weekends. BWL has multiple GDKP runs. MC/AQ20/ZG have pure pugs going most of the week.
ALl in all, if you want to play a vanilla server, play feenix
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
Not really, there are vast areas of the map where there is literally no point to go there other than one quest that starts from a chain in a different zone. Add to it you're walking at slow ass walking speed for the majority of it (and can't run past monsters until you get a mount, so you have a bunch of pointless fights) and it gets really annoying.
As far as questing, let me just point out one of the less egregious examples: Ragefire Chasm had quests from every major Horde city that you had to run around and get before you did it. It was like that for nearly every dungeon, and even some zones didn't have very many quests IN them, but had quests to GO TO them.
That wasn't as bad as you think, it was bad for new players, but it wasn't that bad once sites like allakhazam/wowhead came out where you can start mapping your quest lines out and minimize your travel.
Very true, but it's still culture shock to see such a step back in game design. Say what you want about Wrath/Cata, their leveling and questing were far superior to anything that came before it.
Also, got on the server advertised in this post and was lvl 5 before I finished the lvl 1 Kobold killing quest in Elwynn...yeah, fuck it.
Yep, the quest were somewhat better building a story, i totally agree with you. But that is also way easier for content of 10lvls with a more experienced team.
You see a step back in game design, why exactly ?
It forces you to read the quests to know where to look for them and what it is really asking you for, to explore the map and the zones to actually find them instead of just following the dot, to know the NPC's names, to realize that quest hubs are not totally streamlined. And if it pains you, you have addons or websites to look for them.
I beg to differ on what is good game design when it comes to MMORPGs, specially since all that aid, turns off the immersion just so we, the players, can go mindlessly through the content.
Same for insta travels and flying mounts. They are a convenience, not something you need, and they diminish the value of the "real world" when you can just do everything from one place.
I started playing on the feenix 1x server 2 days ago.WOW.I couldnt belive my eyes! Even the low lvl quests zones had a lot of players.AH is full of stuff.U can always find helpful players (im on horde side donno about ally).Im currently lvl 15 ud priest.Hell of a fun.
I cant wait to get to STV! OH boy ) I havent played wow in years,but this server rocks,feels almost like the original one! come and join us,if u dare ^^
And to all those bitching about flightpaths and whatnot:suck it up! This is definetly not for u
im up for playing with others on 1x feenix vanilla server. Lets make or join a guild together . Be social and help like it was in the OLD DAYS. I'm horde btw
Vanilla was epic, but I think TBC was even more epic for me (before they nerfed heroics and raids and took away the epic long Alterac Valley games which was my absolute favorite as a hunter racking up kills for hours without dying. Kinda sad to say this but I think I enjoyed WoW more than anything...and i've traveled the world and partied a lot..still doesnt compare for me. Now I wouldn't play it though.
On June 09 2013 08:56 Copymizer wrote: im up for playing with others on 1x feenix vanilla server. Lets make or join a guild together . Be social and help like it was in the OLD DAYS. I'm horde btw
I am playing alliance on the Feenix 1x server (Emerald Dream) under the name Svelte if anyone wants to add me.
Dont't play on Vanilla WoW servers. I've played nearly 3 years on ~10 different vanilla servers (including feenix, vanillagaming) and they are all either bugged or underpopulated.
Seriously, don't play on feenix, it is mindblowingly bad.
The best Vanilla server out there atm script wise is probably http://www.twinstar.cz/?lang=en, but last time I checked it was pretty dead sadly. Their tbc server is pretty good aswell (and not dead), but sadly mainly czech speaking
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
Not really, there are vast areas of the map where there is literally no point to go there other than one quest that starts from a chain in a different zone. Add to it you're walking at slow ass walking speed for the majority of it (and can't run past monsters until you get a mount, so you have a bunch of pointless fights) and it gets really annoying.
As far as questing, let me just point out one of the less egregious examples: Ragefire Chasm had quests from every major Horde city that you had to run around and get before you did it. It was like that for nearly every dungeon, and even some zones didn't have very many quests IN them, but had quests to GO TO them.
That wasn't as bad as you think, it was bad for new players, but it wasn't that bad once sites like allakhazam/wowhead came out where you can start mapping your quest lines out and minimize your travel.
Very true, but it's still culture shock to see such a step back in game design. Say what you want about Wrath/Cata, their leveling and questing were far superior to anything that came before it.
Also, got on the server advertised in this post and was lvl 5 before I finished the lvl 1 Kobold killing quest in Elwynn...yeah, fuck it.
Yep, the quest were somewhat better building a story, i totally agree with you. But that is also way easier for content of 10lvls with a more experienced team.
You see a step back in game design, why exactly ?
It forces you to read the quests to know where to look for them and what it is really asking you for, to explore the map and the zones to actually find them instead of just following the dot, to know the NPC's names, to realize that quest hubs are not totally streamlined. And if it pains you, you have addons or websites to look for them.
I beg to differ on what is good game design when it comes to MMORPGs, specially since all that aid, turns off the immersion just so we, the players, can go mindlessly through the content.
Same for insta travels and flying mounts. They are a convenience, not something you need, and they diminish the value of the "real world" when you can just do everything from one place.
Totally agree. The world just felt much bigger when you couldnt insta-travel to any given location. Going from Org to BRM took at least 15 mins if you got lucky with the zeppelin, hehe. The only quest I could never complete was the infamous Mankriks Wife.
On June 09 2013 01:03 deth2munkies wrote: Here's the problem: Vanilla WoW and TBC were great by nostalgia standards, but people tend to forget how inconvenient and utterly retarded some of the mechanics were.
Rep grinding is an ENORMOUS pain in the ass in both places, spending 50+ hours killing Furblogs is not my idea of fun.
Transportation is a nightmare, flight paths are few and far between, you don't get a mount till 40 (and that's if you have more money than is likely for you to have at that point because quests don't give hardly any money), AND on top of it flight paths connect in such a way that you have to discover all of them in order to get to certain places.
Resist gear is a pain in the ass to farm and relies on luck to get a lot of the patterns/materials.
Blackrock Fucking Depths still fucking sucks fucking ass yet you have to do it a billion times.
40 people, 4-5 purples per boss, and most people can't use them.
Tons of specs are not only suboptimal, but completely unviable: non-holy paladins (prot was fixed in TBC), Feral/Balance druids, Demonology/Affliction heavy locks, etc. For many classes there was exactly 1 good raid build.
Raid attunements: there's always one jackass who forgot to do the quest.
Vanilla questing was horrible: often times the questgivers were extremely far from their quests or on the opposite sides of the same area where all were completed, horribly inefficient.
At the time, you couldn't expect much better from a game, now we can, and the oldness will show. I think it might be interesting to try for a bit out of nostalgia, but be forewarned that most of you will get bored very fast with it once you remember how boring it could get.
Questing/Transportation were actually really good imo. It encouraged exploring and all, not just having everything spoonfed to you (or "streamlined"). The raid drops were...i don't know, the only thing that was horrible about it was pally/shammy gear dropping for the opposite faction.
Vanilla wasn't better at everything but i think overall it was still better...even with stupid BRD (it wasn't THAT bad when you didn't PUG it but everybody hated that place it was rare to get good runs there)..
Not really, there are vast areas of the map where there is literally no point to go there other than one quest that starts from a chain in a different zone. Add to it you're walking at slow ass walking speed for the majority of it (and can't run past monsters until you get a mount, so you have a bunch of pointless fights) and it gets really annoying.
As far as questing, let me just point out one of the less egregious examples: Ragefire Chasm had quests from every major Horde city that you had to run around and get before you did it. It was like that for nearly every dungeon, and even some zones didn't have very many quests IN them, but had quests to GO TO them.
That wasn't as bad as you think, it was bad for new players, but it wasn't that bad once sites like allakhazam/wowhead came out where you can start mapping your quest lines out and minimize your travel.
Very true, but it's still culture shock to see such a step back in game design. Say what you want about Wrath/Cata, their leveling and questing were far superior to anything that came before it.
Also, got on the server advertised in this post and was lvl 5 before I finished the lvl 1 Kobold killing quest in Elwynn...yeah, fuck it.
Yep, the quest were somewhat better building a story, i totally agree with you. But that is also way easier for content of 10lvls with a more experienced team.
You see a step back in game design, why exactly ?
It forces you to read the quests to know where to look for them and what it is really asking you for, to explore the map and the zones to actually find them instead of just following the dot, to know the NPC's names, to realize that quest hubs are not totally streamlined. And if it pains you, you have addons or websites to look for them.
I beg to differ on what is good game design when it comes to MMORPGs, specially since all that aid, turns off the immersion just so we, the players, can go mindlessly through the content.
Same for insta travels and flying mounts. They are a convenience, not something you need, and they diminish the value of the "real world" when you can just do everything from one place.
Totally agree. The world just felt much bigger when you couldnt insta-travel to any given location. Going from Org to BRM took at least 15 mins if you got lucky with the zeppelin, hehe. The only quest I could never complete was the infamous Mankriks Wife.
Exacctlyyyyyy. It was a fucking world. If you had a quest, it was a quest. Not an errand. You walked through the valleys and the mountains and found your target, then went back. Where is the immersion in flying from point a to point b, hopping off your mount to kill a few boars, then flying back?
The way people want the game now, they might as well just watch videos of other people playing. There's no challenge, no involvement. You're just following your arrows. It's not bad game design to take 15 minutes to get to a different fucking /continent/ in the game world.
On June 09 2013 21:01 krutopatkin wrote: Dont't play on Vanilla WoW servers. I've played nearly 3 years on ~10 different vanilla servers (including feenix, vanillagaming) and they are all either bugged or underpopulated.
Seriously, don't play on feenix, it is mindblowingly bad.
The best Vanilla server out there atm script wise is probably http://www.twinstar.cz/?lang=en, but last time I checked it was pretty dead sadly. Their tbc server is pretty good aswell (and not dead), but sadly mainly czech speaking
I wonder what makes u say that. Right now the servers are being moved (got Ddosed or something),therefore we experience a lot of laggs and dc.Apart from that,there is nothing wrong with it.
Yeah i played on a private server back i nthe day (during actual vanilla) when i was too poor to afford the sub. It was absolute shit in comparison, completely borked shell of the game.
To find its not much different after 7 years is pathetically bad really, i expected it to be perfected.
2 manning BWL, Kazzak, 4 world boss dragons anyone? DId that shit daily. I guess they sorted balanced more by now, but damn it doesnt seem much better with rampant pathing issues still a problem
On June 09 2013 21:01 krutopatkin wrote: Dont't play on Vanilla WoW servers. I've played nearly 3 years on ~10 different vanilla servers (including feenix, vanillagaming) and they are all either bugged or underpopulated.
Seriously, don't play on feenix, it is mindblowingly bad.
The best Vanilla server out there atm script wise is probably http://www.twinstar.cz/?lang=en, but last time I checked it was pretty dead sadly. Their tbc server is pretty good aswell (and not dead), but sadly mainly czech speaking
I wonder what makes u say that. Right now the servers are being moved (got Ddosed or something),therefore we experience a lot of laggs and dc.Apart from that,there is nothing wrong with it.
~30 days played time on feenix makes me say that. r14 for dozens of people back when the honor system was broken makes me say that. totally broken fury warrior makes me say that. not a single working instance working properly makes me say that.
On June 09 2013 21:01 krutopatkin wrote: Dont't play on Vanilla WoW servers. I've played nearly 3 years on ~10 different vanilla servers (including feenix, vanillagaming) and they are all either bugged or underpopulated.
Seriously, don't play on feenix, it is mindblowingly bad.
The best Vanilla server out there atm script wise is probably http://www.twinstar.cz/?lang=en, but last time I checked it was pretty dead sadly. Their tbc server is pretty good aswell (and not dead), but sadly mainly czech speaking
I wonder what makes u say that. Right now the servers are being moved (got Ddosed or something),therefore we experience a lot of laggs and dc.Apart from that,there is nothing wrong with it.
~30 days played time on feenix makes me say that. r14 for dozens of people back when the honor system was broken makes me say that. totally broken fury warrior makes me say that. not a single working instance working properly makes me say that.
Have u even checked whats happening on the ED feenix server latley? Im guessing not. I donno,i shouldnt even argue,if u dont want to play then dont do it.Its just that what ur saying dosnt even make sense ^^
On June 09 2013 21:01 krutopatkin wrote: Dont't play on Vanilla WoW servers. I've played nearly 3 years on ~10 different vanilla servers (including feenix, vanillagaming) and they are all either bugged or underpopulated.
Seriously, don't play on feenix, it is mindblowingly bad.
The best Vanilla server out there atm script wise is probably http://www.twinstar.cz/?lang=en, but last time I checked it was pretty dead sadly. Their tbc server is pretty good aswell (and not dead), but sadly mainly czech speaking
I wonder what makes u say that. Right now the servers are being moved (got Ddosed or something),therefore we experience a lot of laggs and dc.Apart from that,there is nothing wrong with it.
~30 days played time on feenix makes me say that. r14 for dozens of people back when the honor system was broken makes me say that. totally broken fury warrior makes me say that. not a single working instance working properly makes me say that.
Have u even checked whats happening on the ED feenix server latley? Im guessing not. I donno,i shouldnt even argue,if u dont want to play then dont do it.Its just that what ur saying dosnt even make sense ^^
uhm a friend of mine had a level 60 there ~4 months ago and according to him you couldn't even run scholo without a warlock due to script bugs, also headmaster did nothing but casting arcane missiles.
On June 09 2013 21:01 krutopatkin wrote: Dont't play on Vanilla WoW servers. I've played nearly 3 years on ~10 different vanilla servers (including feenix, vanillagaming) and they are all either bugged or underpopulated.
Seriously, don't play on feenix, it is mindblowingly bad.
The best Vanilla server out there atm script wise is probably http://www.twinstar.cz/?lang=en, but last time I checked it was pretty dead sadly. Their tbc server is pretty good aswell (and not dead), but sadly mainly czech speaking
I wonder what makes u say that. Right now the servers are being moved (got Ddosed or something),therefore we experience a lot of laggs and dc.Apart from that,there is nothing wrong with it.
~30 days played time on feenix makes me say that. r14 for dozens of people back when the honor system was broken makes me say that. totally broken fury warrior makes me say that. not a single working instance working properly makes me say that.
Have u even checked whats happening on the ED feenix server latley? Im guessing not. I donno,i shouldnt even argue,if u dont want to play then dont do it.Its just that what ur saying dosnt even make sense ^^
uhm a friend of mine had a level 60 there ~4 months ago and according to him you couldn't even run scholo without a warlock due to script bugs, also headmaster did nothing but casting arcane missiles.
You are probably right, but at this point i haven't experienced that, and playing on a x1 server it will take me long enough to find out what you are speaking about. Also you have to take into account that the emerald dream is a fairly "new" server when you are speaking about the past, like r14, etc...
On other note how many people do we have here that are trying it out ? What faction/level ? Would be nice to find some
I will start playing more intensively next weekend probably, since i got lot of work to do this week. I am planning on playing in the horde a mage, but if there is a good amount of TL'ers on the alliance on ED i would think about rolling there (even if i can't play my beloved undead :d).
On June 09 2013 21:01 krutopatkin wrote: Dont't play on Vanilla WoW servers. I've played nearly 3 years on ~10 different vanilla servers (including feenix, vanillagaming) and they are all either bugged or underpopulated.
Seriously, don't play on feenix, it is mindblowingly bad.
The best Vanilla server out there atm script wise is probably http://www.twinstar.cz/?lang=en, but last time I checked it was pretty dead sadly. Their tbc server is pretty good aswell (and not dead), but sadly mainly czech speaking
I wonder what makes u say that. Right now the servers are being moved (got Ddosed or something),therefore we experience a lot of laggs and dc.Apart from that,there is nothing wrong with it.
~30 days played time on feenix makes me say that. r14 for dozens of people back when the honor system was broken makes me say that. totally broken fury warrior makes me say that. not a single working instance working properly makes me say that.
Have u even checked whats happening on the ED feenix server latley? Im guessing not. I donno,i shouldnt even argue,if u dont want to play then dont do it.Its just that what ur saying dosnt even make sense ^^
uhm a friend of mine had a level 60 there ~4 months ago and according to him you couldn't even run scholo without a warlock due to script bugs, also headmaster did nothing but casting arcane missiles.
You are probably right, but at this point i haven't experienced that, and playing on a x1 server it will take me long enough to find out what you are speaking about. Also you have to take into account that the emerald dream is a fairly "new" server when you are speaking about the past, like r14, etc...
On other note how many people do we have here that are trying it out ? What faction/level ? Would be nice to find some
I will start playing more intensively next weekend probably, since i got lot of work to do this week. I am planning on playing in the horde a mage, but if there is a good amount of TL'ers on the alliance on ED i would think about rolling there (even if i can't play my beloved undead :d).
Yep, I agree leveling is a very fun experience on feenix due to the high population, so is PvP ( If you get used to the bugs), but lategame PvE is very annoying to play
aww man i had some good times playing vanilla WoW. i'm tempted to play your vanilla server, but actually i'd probably get to level 5 and then realize the game is still boring.
some1 else said it best: the game was great when WoW first came out. everything was new and mysterious. some stuff was way too hard or broken or took too much time. that's part of what made it fun.
and like the first time i flew on a gryphon, went into enemy territory, or entered an 80-man battleground... i was like "damn this is cool!". but those moments are gone now. i don't think a vanilla server will bring them back for me.
On June 09 2013 23:30 MadProbe wrote: aww man i had some good times playing vanilla WoW. i'm tempted to play your vanilla server, but actually i'd probably get to level 5 and then realize the game is still boring.
some1 else said it best: the game was great when WoW first came out. everything was new and mysterious. some stuff was way too hard or broken or took too much time. that's part of what made it fun.
and like the first time i flew on a gryphon, went into enemy territory, or entered an 80-man battleground... i was like "damn this is cool!". but those moments are gone now. i don't think a vanilla server will bring them back for me.
I don't have high hopes, but the kind of people who want to play Vanilla WoW again out of a sense of nostalgia tend to be great people, and that might make it fun again for me. The main reason I quit WoW was that the dungeon/raid finders destroyed server communities, then all my friends quit.
My best memories from WoW vanilla (I stopped before TBC):
Shaman being overpowered killing everything. Druid sucking. 40-man raid on Astranaar. Peoples levels were 16-24 so we got decimated. Seeing people who had a mount. Just chilling and chatting and watching the landscapes. Discussions about whether or not add-ons should be allowed, and - Trying to complete quests without guides or guidings or shit. You just had to find the stuff yourself or ask around in general. The highest pvp ranked who could send messages to the whole realm.
Also that paladin feat which made it so when some enemy crit you, you would gain "a free attack". I found out you could save these up, so before I did any kind of pvp I would equip my best 2h weapon, find a neutral (whatever the fuck normal mobs were called, haha, so long ago) and let them hit me until they'd critted five times. I would use the paladin feat which gave every single attack a % of holy damage or something, and the first enemy I would run in to would be confused when my first attack hit him six times (5 free attacks + the 1 normal). FUCk that was amazing.
On June 10 2013 00:00 Testuser wrote: Also that paladin feat which made it so when some enemy crit you, you would gain "a free attack". I found out you could save these up, so before I did any kind of pvp I would equip my best 2h weapon, find a neutral (whatever the fuck normal mobs were called, haha, so long ago) and let them hit me until they'd critted five times. I would use the paladin feat which gave every single attack a % of holy damage or something, and the first enemy I would run in to would be confused when my first attack hit him six times (5 free attacks + the 1 normal). FUCk that was amazing.
I loved the leveling, tbh. Nothing more fun than that in classic wow, especially with a friend. You could come up with weird things like making the ultimate instakilling holypriest with some good planning and a paladin friend:
- Spiritual guidance to turn 25% of your total spirit into damage/healing. - Spirit Tap to double the spirit you get from gear - Searing Light and Divine fury to get the 10% stronger smite and reduced cast speed. - Divine Spirit from Discipline for more damage, and other stuff like Meditation on the way.
Then from Paladin he got - The crusader judgement (sick flat damage buff for holy damage throughout levels) - Sanctity Aura for that extra +10% holy damage - The Blessing of Kings for 10% more spirit for the priest (ontop of the +5% human racial).
And then all the consumables ontop of that, like spirit scrolls, arcane elixirs, flasks (at lvl 60 for tyrs grind), wizard oils, spirit foods, etc.
It was a force. :D
Too bad all these little weirdities were streamlined out in later patches. And too bad the current selection of private realms suffer constant DDoS to be even remotely enjoyable.
are there any concrete plans to do something? ive never played wow (didnt want to pay) but if there's a group of TL'ers doing stuff (who'd be willing to at least kind of tell me what to do) i'd love to hop on.
Its bullshit having all that content gone from the game, they should have nostalgia servers imo, would keep people playing more often thats for sure, but i guess people paying for subs and only playing 2 hours a day +6 more for raids a week keeps their profits high and their bandwidth low.
On June 08 2013 22:56 TheKefka wrote: Who ever says they had fun in molten core is either shamelessly lying or his brain is tainted by nostalgia Molten core was one of the worst fucking experiences ever and the only thing that makes is worth it is actually finishing it and looking back at the days of total bullshit that was farming and progression you had to go through. I have no idea who in his right mind wants to go back and raid molten core for fun
On June 08 2013 04:56 Judicator wrote: Not to mention all the hard checks they put into the game, you weren't going to progress in BWL unless you farmed MC for your 40. Then there are attunement quests, etc. etc. People nostalgic for vanilla just overlook some of the really annoying aspects of getting 40 people together. Oh you got a new member? Gotta run MC again for the 500th time so we can progress in BWL.
That stagnant progression was soul crushing the moment you realized what you were doing.Your state of mind went literally from Yeah we downed Ragnaros! to Fuck we need to kill Ragnaros for someone's T2. That shit wasn't exciting.
TBC was the high point where Blizzard found a balance. Haven't raided enough in anything past that expansion to comment.
yes,yes and yes
I had fun in Molten Core my first few times. Later on I found ways to have fun, like dropping Rain of Fire on the raid and making them run around like headless chickens. Good times.
That said, after sitting Cata out I'm having a blast with MoP. I recently finished the warlock green fire quest and it was a blast. It has a lot of things done very right. Good luck with your raids, though! If you get a good group vanilla WoW is a blast, I'll never forget it.
So I just started playing on feenix TBC server. Quite impressed so far, my ping is amazing, there's a lot of people on.
Question is, how is one supposed to play this? I just killed a few enemies in the very start, and hit level 6. I don't have even close to enough gold to buy my abilities, and since I level so quickly, I get no gear. I assume these issues are alleviated once you're high enough level that you won't be leveling from killing just 10 enemies, but what's the recommended way to go about it early on?
On June 10 2013 03:20 Tobberoth wrote: So I just started playing on feenix TBC server. Quite impressed so far, my ping is amazing, there's a lot of people on.
Question is, how is one supposed to play this? I just killed a few enemies in the very start, and hit level 6. I don't have even close to enough gold to buy my abilities, and since I level so quickly, I get no gear. I assume these issues are alleviated once you're high enough level that you won't be leveling from killing just 10 enemies, but what's the recommended way to go about it early on?
Only buy the really important skills (Frostbolt, Sinister Strike etc.) You can't do anything about your gear, which is annoying especially as melee. If you are something like a level 30 rogue with a level 6 dagger, try to farm chests until you get decent weapon.
On June 09 2013 07:34 Capped wrote: Yeah i just found out they have a 1x server, i looked it up earlier and they didnt advertise it lol.
Ima download naow.
^ at the above, what server is that, 1x or 16x or 12x or their "instant 60" server? Would love the 1x to have a good playerbase
12x, it has the biggest playerbase, the 16x (TBC) is around the same with the 12x, and the instant 60 has the lowest playerbase, 1x hovering somewhere in the mid-grounds.
On June 10 2013 03:20 Tobberoth wrote: So I just started playing on feenix TBC server. Quite impressed so far, my ping is amazing, there's a lot of people on.
Question is, how is one supposed to play this? I just killed a few enemies in the very start, and hit level 6. I don't have even close to enough gold to buy my abilities, and since I level so quickly, I get no gear. I assume these issues are alleviated once you're high enough level that you won't be leveling from killing just 10 enemies, but what's the recommended way to go about it early on?
Only buy the really important skills (Frostbolt, Sinister Strike etc.) You can't do anything about your gear, which is annoying especially as melee. If you are something like a level 30 rogue with a level 6 dagger, try to farm chests until you get decent weapon.
Don't beg for gold, it's annoying
Yeah, picking a warrior was probably not a good idea... so item dependant in vanilla/TBC. I'm level 10 now and haven't gotten a single upgrade, so it's already starting to become tough, can't even afford the second levels of the skills I need and I've been skipping pretty much all of my spells. Hopefully my 18 stack of linen sells for 90 silver, that should be enough to get the ball rolling.
On June 07 2013 23:37 pokerface wrote: I must say i loved vanilla.I have immediately dropped wow at first expansion and never looked back :D
But... But TBC was really good. D:
Yeah this, TBC was better than base WoW. Blizzard was starting to really try balancing out the different specs in TBC, there were arena seasons 1, 2 and 3, and the PvE zones were amazing with really good boss encounters.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
That's because people were complete shit not having a clue how to PvP:D Or before the times of the CC nerf, you could just CC someone forever lol. Remember sapping a bunch of people in EPL for like 20 minutes, they chased me into the undercity(they were alliance) they were so angry. Sapp lasted for 45 sec back then, good times!
The one part of vanilla i miss the most is that the world was alive. You went to EPL, Felwood, WPL, Winterspring, BRM etc you would always find people - always. Either grinding or roaming for a fight, this was so much fun and the time i did not spend raiding i spent roaming the world PvPing. Starting lightly in TBC and completed in wotlk was the "stand around in a city" idling since you had no real thing to do in the outside world(so much less grinding that actually netted something compared to vanilla) and also ofcourse, flying mounts.
On June 10 2013 04:53 Godwrath wrote: The dicussion about "which one is better" is pointless, because most expansions catter to different people, and you can see the shifts there.
Play vanilla EverQuest1. WoW was bad because it was a dumbed down, more shallow EQ. In modern MMO chats I hear WoW players saying things like "remember when we played vanilla WoW and the game was hard". WoW was never hard, people were just bad. You could solo your way through the entire game while barely understanding your class. In WoW everyone's allowed to be an asshat, in EQ being an asshat was a good way to ensure you'd never get to max level. You couldn't do anything alone in that game, so your reputation meant more.
I could go on and on about it, but I'm in the minority on this one, and you can't know unless you experienced it. It was the unforgiving nature of it that made EQ unfit for the masses, most players who picked the game up at the time became frustrated with it quickly, but this also made it an amazing game. Every noob's first experience was a quick death until they learned how to do it right, and explaining the Overlord Mata Muram fight with a 54 man team to a WoW player would make them pee a little. I realize I sound like a jerk coming into a WoW thread talking about another game, but it had to be said. =p
I never played any other MMO besides wow. They all just look bad in comparison. But ya, what you describe just sounds frustrating rather than hard.
But going back to the topic, I'm loving this thread but what boggles me is why Blizz won't open old school servers like this if there's obviously demand for it. I'd resubscribe right now for a good Vanilla or TBC server, but these private servers seem a bit iffy to me. One of the most important factors of wow is the server community and idk if I would get the same feeling in private servers as the legit thing. I'd also bet that the ppl running those servers would feel more inclined to abuse power a bit more easily. I just wish Blizz would make these content exclusive servers so we can really relive these moments... good times.
I did, and even if i have some of my best mmo memories playing it, i just can't stand the combat system anymore, which is what rah forgets to point out as horribad.
On June 10 2013 05:24 Rah wrote: Play vanilla EverQuest1. WoW was bad because it was a dumbed down, more shallow EQ. In modern MMO chats I hear WoW players saying things like "remember when we played vanilla WoW and the game was hard". WoW was never hard, people were just bad. You could solo your way through the entire game while barely understanding your class. In WoW everyone's allowed to be an asshat, in EQ being an asshat was a good way to ensure you'd never get to max level. You couldn't do anything alone in that game, so your reputation meant more.
I could go on and on about it, but I'm in the minority on this one, and you can't know unless you experienced it. It was the unforgiving nature of it that made EQ unfit for the masses, most players who picked the game up at the time became frustrated with it quickly, but this also made it an amazing game. Every noob's first experience was a quick death until they learned how to do it right, and explaining the Overlord Mata Muram fight with a 54 man team to a WoW player would make them pee a little. I realize I sound like a jerk coming into a WoW thread talking about another game, but it had to be said. =p
Kinda like FFXI. I remember spending 3 weeks with a group of 17 other people trying to find (random spawn) and kill (hard as fuck) a monster that dropped a weapon that was awesome... for someone else in my linkshell (FF equivalent of a guild). That's dedication when that many people spend that much time helping someone else.
On June 10 2013 03:20 Tobberoth wrote: So I just started playing on feenix TBC server. Quite impressed so far, my ping is amazing, there's a lot of people on.
Question is, how is one supposed to play this? I just killed a few enemies in the very start, and hit level 6. I don't have even close to enough gold to buy my abilities, and since I level so quickly, I get no gear. I assume these issues are alleviated once you're high enough level that you won't be leveling from killing just 10 enemies, but what's the recommended way to go about it early on?
Only buy the really important skills (Frostbolt, Sinister Strike etc.) You can't do anything about your gear, which is annoying especially as melee. If you are something like a level 30 rogue with a level 6 dagger, try to farm chests until you get decent weapon.
Don't beg for gold, it's annoying
Yeah, picking a warrior was probably not a good idea... so item dependant in vanilla/TBC. I'm level 10 now and haven't gotten a single upgrade, so it's already starting to become tough, can't even afford the second levels of the skills I need and I've been skipping pretty much all of my spells. Hopefully my 18 stack of linen sells for 90 silver, that should be enough to get the ball rolling.
The first char on feenix 16x TBC server or 12x vanilla server is really painful to get to max level, because you can't buy your spells and stuff. The easiest way to do it is to stop levelling for awhile and farm the low level gathering professions (selling everything to the AH, it usually earns you a lot of money on these servers) until you can afford some spells.
Other than that, you can always play on their 1x server (or even froze your xp gain to 1x on the 12x, but i dunno why you would do that), but its really long to get to 60 in vanilla.
On June 10 2013 05:24 Rah wrote: Play vanilla EverQuest1. WoW was bad because it was a dumbed down, more shallow EQ. In modern MMO chats I hear WoW players saying things like "remember when we played vanilla WoW and the game was hard". WoW was never hard, people were just bad. You could solo your way through the entire game while barely understanding your class. In WoW everyone's allowed to be an asshat, in EQ being an asshat was a good way to ensure you'd never get to max level. You couldn't do anything alone in that game, so your reputation meant more.
I could go on and on about it, but I'm in the minority on this one, and you can't know unless you experienced it. It was the unforgiving nature of it that made EQ unfit for the masses, most players who picked the game up at the time became frustrated with it quickly, but this also made it an amazing game. Every noob's first experience was a quick death until they learned how to do it right, and explaining the Overlord Mata Muram fight with a 54 man team to a WoW player would make them pee a little. I realize I sound like a jerk coming into a WoW thread talking about another game, but it had to be said. =p
Just because they had even worse game design doesn't mean they were better. It wasn't "difficult" it was just more arduous.
I played EQ and SWG before WoW, and WoW at the time captured a lot of what made both those games special without all the tedium. Which is hilarious considering how much tedious grinding there is in vanilla WoW by today's standards.
On June 10 2013 03:20 Tobberoth wrote: So I just started playing on feenix TBC server. Quite impressed so far, my ping is amazing, there's a lot of people on.
Question is, how is one supposed to play this? I just killed a few enemies in the very start, and hit level 6. I don't have even close to enough gold to buy my abilities, and since I level so quickly, I get no gear. I assume these issues are alleviated once you're high enough level that you won't be leveling from killing just 10 enemies, but what's the recommended way to go about it early on?
Only buy the really important skills (Frostbolt, Sinister Strike etc.) You can't do anything about your gear, which is annoying especially as melee. If you are something like a level 30 rogue with a level 6 dagger, try to farm chests until you get decent weapon.
Don't beg for gold, it's annoying
Yeah, picking a warrior was probably not a good idea... so item dependant in vanilla/TBC. I'm level 10 now and haven't gotten a single upgrade, so it's already starting to become tough, can't even afford the second levels of the skills I need and I've been skipping pretty much all of my spells. Hopefully my 18 stack of linen sells for 90 silver, that should be enough to get the ball rolling.
The first char on feenix 16x TBC server or 12x vanilla server is really painful to get to max level, because you can't buy your spells and stuff. The easiest way to do it is to stop levelling for awhile and farm the low level gathering professions (selling everything to the AH, it usually earns you a lot of money on these servers) until you can afford some spells.
Other than that, you can always play on their 1x server (or even froze your xp gain to 1x on the 12x, but i dunno why you would do that), but its really long to get to 60 in vanilla.
Yeah, from looking in the AH it seems like the basic commodities sell for quite nice prices, so I should probably pick up mining and leatherworking and farm that for a while.
Also, I was quite lucky. While just running to undercity to log out, I killed a few green monsters and one of them dropped a 2handed sword, my dps literally shot through the roof because all my gear before that was the shit you started with... a level 10 warrior with a lvl 1 sword does no damage, safe to say.
I'm not even focusing on the difficulty end of things. The benefit was that most of the kids and bads stopped playing the game before hitting max level. As a result you had an competent and tightly knit community to play with at the end of the grind. Everyone went through hell to get there so you can feel confident that this guy you're forming a party with knows how to play his class, and he's less likely to do something stupid and immature because it would have meaningful repercussions on his reputation in the community. Compare this to WoW where someone could get a max level character without even knowing what CC is, or how to behave in a group setting.
The combat in EQ I enjoyed personally. The pvp was skill based. As a warrior I could take down another warrior with 4000 hp on me if I moved better than he did. The world was immersive and interesting, there was no method to how areas were placed on the map, you never knew what level the monsters would be in the zone you're going into. They just put stuff where they thought it would be cool, and you got to have fun exploring.
The FFXI story was very comparable, it sounds like you had a good group of people to play with. I don't expect people who have only played WoW to agree with me, but ultimately the differences I listed was what turned me away from WoW as a game, and every MMO afterwards. Too many bad and immature players reach the top of the ladder and cause the game to be annoying to play. I'd take a retro MMO more like EQ with some graphic upgrades any day. If you still don't see my view though maybe the lesson to take from this is the game doesn't matter it's all about nostalgia.
On June 10 2013 15:12 Rah wrote: I'm not even focusing on the difficulty end of things. The benefit was that most of the kids and bads stopped playing the game before hitting max level. As a result you had an competent and tightly knit community to play with at the end of the grind. Everyone went through hell to get there so you can feel confident that this guy you're forming a party with knows how to play his class, and he's less likely to do something stupid and immature because it would have meaningful repercussions on his reputation in the community. Compare this to WoW where someone could get a max level character without even knowing what CC is, or how to behave in a group setting.
See, that's the reason this server is great, you only have people who are dedicated to making it work if they went through all the trouble.
I didn't play EQ for too long, 3-4 months before I had to stop (was in High School and my parents were concerned about grades, I picked them up again just before WoW came out).
I don't know man. I mean in WoW and clones you got a lot more buttons to press, but in EQ you could do some footwork and feints in the fight because of the movement boosts that they had in the game. You could fight with a 2 hander as any of the melee classes and manually evade, attack, or try to fake them out in the fight by using some fancy footwork and timing when to hit your attack key, and then you'd get punished with a delay if you mistime an attack with the 2hander. It felt more like you're in control of the fight instead of just pushing buttons. Correct me if this has changed, but usually when I saw warriors dueling 1v1 in WoW they would both be standing there beating on each other with pre-planned hotkey cycles and minimal footwork involved. The way they'd get locked onto each other, lose speed buffs and move sluggishly limited their options for footwork.
I've derailed this enough though so I'll leave it at that.
WoW is much better in almost all aspects these days. Class balance, PvP, raiding is far more complex than in the past, all the little things that you don't even know about until you lose them by going back to a Vanilla server, etc. However, the one thing it lacks, the one thing that is the soul of a MMORPG, is immersion. Feeling like you're walking in a giant, dangerous world. In my opinion there is just a handful of things that would bring the World back in Warcraft:
- remove flying mounts - remove the Raid Finder (especially with the new raid mode coming up) - put all the large questlines and the elite zones back in
And that's about it. It'd probably require more work but the basis of the game has matured over the years. All the individual parts are better than ever before but they lack something binding them together.
Flying mounts and dungeon / raid finder really killed off this game.
I dont know why they didnt do something like make an instanced room prior to each dungeon / raid. Link all the servers to that giant room and let people travel there to find parties.
On June 10 2013 16:40 Capped wrote: Flying mounts and dungeon / raid finder really killed off this game.
I dont know why they didnt do something like make an instanced room prior to each dungeon / raid. Link all the servers to that giant room and let people travel there to find parties.
Because the vast majority of players don't want to sit around in a room doing nothing waiting for raids to happen, they want to be playing the game. That's the whole point of the raid finder, you can do whatever else you want to be doing while waiting for the raid.
Does it kill some of the immersion? Sure, but the majority of blizzards paying customers do not care.
On June 10 2013 16:40 Capped wrote: Flying mounts and dungeon / raid finder really killed off this game.
I dont know why they didnt do something like make an instanced room prior to each dungeon / raid. Link all the servers to that giant room and let people travel there to find parties.
Because the vast majority of players don't want to sit around in a room doing nothing waiting for raids to happen, they want to be playing the game. That's the whole point of the raid finder, you can do whatever else you want to be doing while waiting for the raid.
Does it kill some of the immersion? Sure, but the majority of blizzards paying customers do not care.
but...the majority of players afk in org / SW now.
Your point is invalid because its been proven people sit around waiting for queues to pop, they dont do other shit lol
the room idea brings together a bigger population of players via cross-server instance and removes the other shit (nobody ever travelling, AFK in main cities etc)
I guess if your a fan of raid finder you wont like this idea OR pre-DF vanilla / TBC so why are you in this thread?
If you want to play on a vanilla server. WoW-One (feenix) is by far the best in terms of scripting + playerbase. They have 3 servers, One 12x, one instant 60, and one 1x server.
I would never play on the instant 60 one, as that is basically just a lower populated high rate server. And they do not prioritize it at all, they even put some patches out there first to test that it works decent before putting it out on the two other servers.
The 12x (Warsong) server has a lot of players and they do have a lot of raids. In my oppinion the problem with this server is that when you have a high rate server ppl tend to care less about their chars, so you have more ninjaers, flamers and just bad people in general.
The 1x (Emerald Dream) server has around 1k-1.5k people playing at peak hours, at this moment the only content that is out is MC / Ony / BWL and WSG. AV / AB and ZG will follow in like 3 months time (hopefully). And they will continue to do gradual release.
To me ED is by far the best server cause it has a really good community and it feels very much like a vanilla server. Ofcourse there are bugs, but none are to bad.
At the moment the servers are being very unstable because they are getting DDOS'd, mainly because they had a really huge and important update on the warsong server. And for some reason people in the private server world like to DDOS eachother. So sadly we have downtimes like this :S
And if you want to play on a 1x TBC server you should check out corecraft (worldofcorecraft.com), though that is not released and is prolly like atleast 6months away.
On June 10 2013 16:26 Rah wrote: I don't know man. I mean in WoW and clones you got a lot more buttons to press, but in EQ you could do some footwork and feints in the fight because of the movement boosts that they had in the game. You could fight with a 2 hander as any of the melee classes and manually evade, attack, or try to fake them out in the fight by using some fancy footwork and timing when to hit your attack key, and then you'd get punished with a delay if you mistime an attack with the 2hander. It felt more like you're in control of the fight instead of just pushing buttons. Correct me if this has changed, but usually when I saw warriors dueling 1v1 in WoW they would both be standing there beating on each other with pre-planned hotkey cycles and minimal footwork involved. The way they'd get locked onto each other, lose speed buffs and move sluggishly limited their options for footwork.
I've derailed this enough though so I'll leave it at that.
I'd only like to add that if you were good enough and had the right(not the best!) gear you could do some amazing things. For example there was a bard named Speedd who single-handedly destroyed 80 man raids. By training mobs and switching different items he had such as drums, flute etc for speed boosts, so he could always outrun people.
What's amazing about that is that it wasn't really intended to work like that, in WoW they made a leash range on mobs which really killed some of the creativity you could do. Tough iirc there were some mobs that were kittable forever as long as you did dmg to them in vanilla. Still remember the kazzak days ~~
On June 10 2013 16:40 Capped wrote: Flying mounts and dungeon / raid finder really killed off this game.
I dont know why they didnt do something like make an instanced room prior to each dungeon / raid. Link all the servers to that giant room and let people travel there to find parties.
Because the vast majority of players don't want to sit around in a room doing nothing waiting for raids to happen, they want to be playing the game. That's the whole point of the raid finder, you can do whatever else you want to be doing while waiting for the raid.
Does it kill some of the immersion? Sure, but the majority of blizzards paying customers do not care.
but...the majority of players afk in org / SW now.
Your point is invalid because its been proven people sit around waiting for queues to pop, they dont do other shit lol
the room idea brings together a bigger population of players via cross-server instance and removes the other shit (nobody ever travelling, AFK in main cities etc)
I guess if your a fan of raid finder you wont like this idea OR pre-DF vanilla / TBC so why are you in this thread?
I'm explaining Blizzards stance, if you read the thread you would see that I'm trying TBC. I played since beta, so I'm perfectly used to the old restrictions and I don't care much either way.
Point is, the raid finder is extremely convenient and the majority of players prefer it. Loss of some immersion is honestly a very small price to pay, so the odds of Blizzard changing the system to something like what you're proposing is minimal. Some / a lot of players afk in Org, but I'm pretty sure most people do stuff anyway such as check AH, fix their bank and such.
All I'm saying is that your comment "Flying mounts and dungeon / raid finder really killed off this game." makes no sense. WoW is still going strong, and the majority of people who left the game probably didn't do it because of the raid finder, because if they did, Blizzard would adapt. It's just a fact that most players prefer convenience over immersion.
Vanilla is the real WOW, it was beautiful and people have chance to actual travel around, not just sitting at the Org/SW. The raid is hard too, ofc boss mechanic is simple but you actually need to put your effort into it. Every Raids require some kind of questing/keys so people actually have a sense about lore involving in. I started at beta, quit after vanilla and rejoin at the end of Cata and play on into Pandaria. Cata was horrible while Pandiria is cool but can't really compare to vanilla.
What I hate about the current WOW is you can do raid with pick-up. I really want that Raid is not for everyone, only those that want to put the time and effort in. Because you can do this, heroic raid is really difficult to find people for it. People would just say fuck this difficult shit and go for pick-up and raid finder.
I got quite some good kills on Pandaria but nothing compare to the moment I had when we downed vanilla Rag or the 2nd BWL boss. That shit was intense.
On June 10 2013 18:52 Caphe wrote: Vanilla is the real WOW, it was beautiful and people have chance to actual travel around, not just sitting at the Org/SW. The raid is hard too, ofc boss mechanic is simple but you actually need to put your effort into it. Every Raids require some kind of questing/keys so people actually have a sense about lore involving in. I started at beta, quit after vanilla and rejoin at the end of Cata and play on into Pandaria. Cata was horrible while Pandiria is cool but can't really compare to vanilla.
What I hate about the current WOW is you can do raid with pick-up. I really want that Raid is not for everyone, only those that want to put the time and effort in. Because you can do this, heroic raid is really difficult to find people for it. People would just say fuck this difficult shit and go for pick-up and raid finder.
I got quite some good kills on Pandaria but nothing compare to the moment I had when we downed vanilla Rag or the 2nd BWL boss. That shit was intense.
The travelling <3. When people had time. Made the world so epic. Gave you a sense of how huge everything actually was. So I have to admit, TBC raiding > Vanilla. Also Flying mounts, heroic inis, arena pvp. TBC did sure add lots of good stuff. Wotlk was the expansion I quit on, everything was focused on casuals, and though it still had some good parts (I actually liked the first raid ini, the necropolis thingy), imbah gear was just so common, no more traveling like at all, basicly just grinding and farming same heroics/raids, which did not even provide a challange. : /
If you want to play on a vanilla server. WoW-One (feenix) is by far the best in terms of scripting + playerbase. They have 3 servers, One 12x, one instant 60, and one 1x server.
no way feenix is the best scripted server. not even 5 man instances work.
and about the ddos stuff, feenix kind of started it
If you want to play on a vanilla server. WoW-One (feenix) is by far the best in terms of scripting + playerbase. They have 3 servers, One 12x, one instant 60, and one 1x server.
no way feenix is the best scripted server. not even 5 man instances work.
and about the ddos stuff, feenix kind of started it
You've played on one where the instances work? I know i havent.
They're all broken as fuck and borked, after all this time. I spent some time looking some up and they're the same as they were 7 years ago, screwed.
On June 10 2013 22:08 Capped wrote: You've played on one where the instances work? I know i havent.
They're all broken as fuck and borked, after all this time. I spent some time looking some up and they're the same as they were 7 years ago, screwed.
Just FYI, instances work pretty flawlessly on therebirth.net. I'd recommend checking out the server if what you said in your comment is true. In terms of raids, only ZG, MC and Onyxia are released at the moment but they work just as well as all the 5/10mans and all bosses are fully scripted to be Blizzlike including Hakkar and Onyxia.
If you want to play on a vanilla server. WoW-One (feenix) is by far the best in terms of scripting + playerbase. They have 3 servers, One 12x, one instant 60, and one 1x server.
no way feenix is the best scripted server. not even 5 man instances work.
and about the ddos stuff, feenix kind of started it
You've played on one where the instances work? I know i havent.
They're all broken as fuck and borked, after all this time. I spent some time looking some up and they're the same as they were 7 years ago, screwed.
How did feenix start a ddos? lol.
I have on several, but they are horribly underpopulated sadly (examples would be mc-wow.eu (dead), twinstar.cz, archaica.eu (dead)
Most servers just scale the damage up incredibly so the instances are at least a little hard
When feenix was small and one of several servers with 300-500 online at the same time around 2010 they became the biggest by ddosing (or crashing with bugs) the other servers despite being even worse back then.
Just FYI, instances work pretty flawlessly on therebirth.net. I'd recommend checking out the server if what you said in your comment is true. In terms of raids, only ZG, MC and Onyxia are released at the moment but they work just as well as all the 5/10mans and all bosses are fully scripted to be Blizzlike including Hakkar and Onyxia.
the problem with therebirth is that their community is downright nuts, they are incredibly fanatic about 1x rates, which is probably the reason the server won't grow. ( they do stuff like quitting the server when a guy get a level 60 char from another guy)
another decent server is http://valkyrie-wow.com/ btw, it has decent scripts, is 1x rates, and a decent community (~500 online all the time last time i checked) but sadly it's mostly russian speaking, even though they went international relatively recently
If you want to play on a vanilla server. WoW-One (feenix) is by far the best in terms of scripting + playerbase. They have 3 servers, One 12x, one instant 60, and one 1x server.
no way feenix is the best scripted server. not even 5 man instances work.
and about the ddos stuff, feenix kind of started it
You've played on one where the instances work? I know i havent.
They're all broken as fuck and borked, after all this time. I spent some time looking some up and they're the same as they were 7 years ago, screwed.
How did feenix start a ddos? lol.
I'm playing on a french server (nostalgeek) that is fairly well scripted (naxx included). All 5-mans work well and few bosses are actually bugged. It's not perfect of course, but they did a good job scripting most of the stuff. The only problem is that the server is rather small, and that sometimes, it starts to lag at the big evenings.
Too bad Blizzard does not like money and will never release a Vanilla/TBC Server. These Cracked Servers are just not fun because they just dont have the population needed for a good MMO and alot of things are bugged.
On June 11 2013 04:02 Vault Boy wrote: Too bad Blizzard does not like money and will never release a Vanilla/TBC Server. These Cracked Servers are just not fun because they just dont have the population needed for a good MMO and alot of things are bugged.
More like they understood how terrible Vanilla is by today's standards. A lot of the posts in here begging for Vanilla just plain ignored the absolutely terrible aspects of vanilla WoW.
Raiding was a fucking 2nd job, not world/server first raiding, but raiding in general. What kind of shitty game locks their player base out of arguably their best content solely based on fucking time investment? Anyone who says that raids required time and effort never made any significant progress. It was atrocious, there's a problem with design when 1 person out of 40 was allowed to have absolute shit DPS because they were raid leading.
Immersion argument is contradictory as hell. WoW has never been big on its immersion unless you think reading blocks of quest text was exciting and really delivered the lore. The attunement quests might have been good if it wasn't associated with the terrible pre-raid purgatory (aka the newly minted 60s with no guild and no chance of getting into good guilds).
Plus the technical problems.
Vanilla WoW sucked unless you were fortunate to be in a top guild. Also, hard mode raids still are difficult, I really don't get the argument that some how vanilla WoW raid encounters were better.
Edit:
Forgot the terrible instance setup, OH MY GOD, 1 hour to get a group if lucky, 1 hour to get the group to the dungeon, 1 hour+ to clear the dungeon if lucky.
On June 11 2013 04:02 Vault Boy wrote: Too bad Blizzard does not like money and will never release a Vanilla/TBC Server. These Cracked Servers are just not fun because they just dont have the population needed for a good MMO and alot of things are bugged.
More like they understood how terrible Vanilla is by today's standards. A lot of the posts in here begging for Vanilla just plain ignored the absolutely terrible aspects of vanilla WoW.
Raiding was a fucking 2nd job, not world/server first raiding, but raiding in general. What kind of shitty game locks their player base out of arguably their best content solely based on fucking time investment? Anyone who says that raids required time and effort never made any significant progress. It was atrocious, there's a problem with design when 1 person out of 40 was allowed to have absolute shit DPS because they were raid leading.
Immersion argument is contradictory as hell. WoW has never been big on its immersion unless you think reading blocks of quest text was exciting and really delivered the lore. The attunement quests might have been good if it wasn't associated with the terrible pre-raid purgatory (aka the newly minted 60s with no guild and no chance of getting into good guilds).
Plus the technical problems.
Vanilla WoW sucked unless you were fortunate to be in a top guild. Also, hard mode raids still are difficult, I really don't get the argument that some how vanilla WoW raid encounters were better.
Edit:
Forgot the terrible instance setup, OH MY GOD, 1 hour to get a group if lucky, 1 hour to get the group to the dungeon, 1 hour+ to clear the dungeon if lucky.
Well considering some shitty pservers manage to get thousands of people to play at the same time, there seems to be a certain demand nevertheless.
On June 10 2013 18:15 sidesprang wrote: If you want to play on a vanilla server. WoW-One (feenix) is by far the best in terms of scripting + playerbase.
Feenix has terrible scripts. I played almost 4 years ago and they still can't script properly. It's only good because so many idiots play there.
Since when does Razorgore have 3 drakes come out that you must nuke down? Since when does Prophet Skeram MC random people, not the closest person to him? Since when does Onyxia Head become lootable for an entire raid? Since when do Sunders not stack from different Tanks? Since when does Healing Waves not stack from different Shamans?
Sorry, but Feenix is literally the worst server I've ever played on. Community sucked (still does); the scripting is just abysmal. The only servers that had anything good were ScriptCraft and TwinStar.cz
WoW raiding is definitely dead. Populations pickup early summer and die right as school starts. I've been doing it for 4 years now. It's never fun.
And don't fucking pretend like you've "raided" in Vanilla.
On June 11 2013 04:44 Trizz wrote: All vanilla servers are pretty bad atm, corecraft will be the best scripted private server in a long time but is TBC. Coming in a month or two.
I apologize. CoreCraft was also one of THE best servers I've ever played on, and that was my first and only TBC experience. If you were interested in Vanilla WoW, ScriptCraft was all there was and TwinStar.cz is dead due to a very toxic Czech community.
On June 11 2013 04:02 Vault Boy wrote: Too bad Blizzard does not like money and will never release a Vanilla/TBC Server. These Cracked Servers are just not fun because they just dont have the population needed for a good MMO and alot of things are bugged.
More like they understood how terrible Vanilla is by today's standards. A lot of the posts in here begging for Vanilla just plain ignored the absolutely terrible aspects of vanilla WoW.
Raiding was a fucking 2nd job, not world/server first raiding, but raiding in general. What kind of shitty game locks their player base out of arguably their best content solely based on fucking time investment? Anyone who says that raids required time and effort never made any significant progress. It was atrocious, there's a problem with design when 1 person out of 40 was allowed to have absolute shit DPS because they were raid leading.
Immersion argument is contradictory as hell. WoW has never been big on its immersion unless you think reading blocks of quest text was exciting and really delivered the lore. The attunement quests might have been good if it wasn't associated with the terrible pre-raid purgatory (aka the newly minted 60s with no guild and no chance of getting into good guilds).
Plus the technical problems.
Vanilla WoW sucked unless you were fortunate to be in a top guild. Also, hard mode raids still are difficult, I really don't get the argument that some how vanilla WoW raid encounters were better.
Edit:
Forgot the terrible instance setup, OH MY GOD, 1 hour to get a group if lucky, 1 hour to get the group to the dungeon, 1 hour+ to clear the dungeon if lucky.
Well considering some shitty pservers manage to get thousands of people to play at the same time, there seems to be a certain demand nevertheless.
Because its free, and its riding on that WoW branding, not because its good, aka it's fool's gold. Put up a 5 dollar pay wall and somehow get perfect emulation, then let's see how many people actually want to still play.
On June 11 2013 04:02 Vault Boy wrote: Too bad Blizzard does not like money and will never release a Vanilla/TBC Server. These Cracked Servers are just not fun because they just dont have the population needed for a good MMO and alot of things are bugged.
More like they understood how terrible Vanilla is by today's standards. A lot of the posts in here begging for Vanilla just plain ignored the absolutely terrible aspects of vanilla WoW.
Raiding was a fucking 2nd job, not world/server first raiding, but raiding in general. What kind of shitty game locks their player base out of arguably their best content solely based on fucking time investment? Anyone who says that raids required time and effort never made any significant progress. It was atrocious, there's a problem with design when 1 person out of 40 was allowed to have absolute shit DPS because they were raid leading.
Immersion argument is contradictory as hell. WoW has never been big on its immersion unless you think reading blocks of quest text was exciting and really delivered the lore. The attunement quests might have been good if it wasn't associated with the terrible pre-raid purgatory (aka the newly minted 60s with no guild and no chance of getting into good guilds).
I can't really speak for anyone else than myself here, but I guess my experience with vanilla WoW differs from yours. The absolutely terrible aspects of WoW were, for some, what made it awesome. And I don't mean technical bugs etc., but some of the less streamlined design enhanced the immersion for me. For instance, looking for a group through interaction through chat, having to travel there somehow and walk up to the instance entrance felt more like being in the world than sitting in the group finder afking on YouTube in the meantime. Yes, you could spend time in WoW doing other things, but to me this takes away from immersion in some form or shape.
Furthermore, 'locking' content based on time investment is in a way an implementation of a hardcore system. This part of the game caters to players who have that time and are willing to spend it on endless grinds. Now I can agree it was a second job, but at the time I had that time and I spent it, with the end result somehow feeling rewarding. It was tedious, but it ended up placing you on the highest tier of the game. Many MMOs cater to hardcore players in different ways, I really believe this is an issue of taste. I personally despise permadeath, but I can deal with grinds and investing massive amounts of time because I find it rewarding in the end.
Finally on immersion, I think I still regard vanilla WoW as immersive because it was alot more immersive than most of the other games I had ever tried when it was released. To many, WoW was the first MMO, which means the first with a large, interactable player base, seamless word etc. Doesn't mean it by some objective standard is extraordinarily immersive, but I feel it was enhanced by my subjective inexperience with MMOs.
On June 11 2013 04:02 Vault Boy wrote: Too bad Blizzard does not like money and will never release a Vanilla/TBC Server. These Cracked Servers are just not fun because they just dont have the population needed for a good MMO and alot of things are bugged.
More like they understood how terrible Vanilla is by today's standards. A lot of the posts in here begging for Vanilla just plain ignored the absolutely terrible aspects of vanilla WoW.
Raiding was a fucking 2nd job, not world/server first raiding, but raiding in general. What kind of shitty game locks their player base out of arguably their best content solely based on fucking time investment? Anyone who says that raids required time and effort never made any significant progress. It was atrocious, there's a problem with design when 1 person out of 40 was allowed to have absolute shit DPS because they were raid leading.
Immersion argument is contradictory as hell. WoW has never been big on its immersion unless you think reading blocks of quest text was exciting and really delivered the lore. The attunement quests might have been good if it wasn't associated with the terrible pre-raid purgatory (aka the newly minted 60s with no guild and no chance of getting into good guilds).
Plus the technical problems.
Vanilla WoW sucked unless you were fortunate to be in a top guild. Also, hard mode raids still are difficult, I really don't get the argument that some how vanilla WoW raid encounters were better.
Edit:
Forgot the terrible instance setup, OH MY GOD, 1 hour to get a group if lucky, 1 hour to get the group to the dungeon, 1 hour+ to clear the dungeon if lucky.
Holy cow. You forgot the part of the community entirely, the immersion is not only "the lore", it's how alive the game is, how healthy the server's community is, and how the world feels. Reading a brick of wall has nothing to do with it. Can you say with a straight face that after flying mounts, teleports, group finders, arenas and cross servers "It is the same or it is just nostalgic ?"
Nonetheless, good luck with your rant, hope you got it out of your chest, but most people understand they are on the minority on this, and are not hating on people who enjoy it differently, just that they fucking miss it. Different tastes, and that shit, you know.
And by the way, i haven't had a raid fight that was as exciting as c'thun, but hey, i was on a top guild so what do i know
I wouldn't mind walking to instances if their locations didn't all blow chunks and required all 5 individuals to travel there. That led to certain places not being touched at all simply because the time investment wasn't justified.
The locking content concept is dumb, because progression was that linear. This isn't about you and your willingness to spend that time, its about you and 39+ others willing to get together on multiple days of the week to raid and to spend that time. That's not rewarding, you can go ask your raid leaders and organizers how fucking of a headache it was to herd 39 of you into a raid. Then if ANYTHING went wrong with your raiding core, good luck doing anything.
The problem with vanilla WoW is that most of its end game concepts were built on the basis that IF everything went right, the game was legitimately enjoyable, good, w/e. The problem is that real world doesn't allow that for like 99% of the player base. What is everything? Getting gear that was required for pre-raiding, getting into a raiding guild that somehow needed your class AND spec (remember this? boomkins/ferals, shadow priests, locks, fire mage pre-AQ, etc. GOOD LUCK), farming when you're not raiding so you can raid, and oh hoping to whatever deity you believed in that your guild doesn't have some e-drama or a geared individual leaving/stop playing so you can continue raiding. There were too many barriers to keep that concept from continuing when the collapse of any one of those things can/will simply mean you aren't doing anything worthwhile in level 60.
Also, that rewarding feeling? To me, that's your brain keeping yourself from committing suicide if you ever figured out how shitty of an experience you were actually having. Working a second job that somehow costs me money, social life (how many of you thought you could go out on a raid night during progression and hoped your ass wouldn't get replaced? especially if you weren't geared AND if your class was easily replaceable), and time. Yeah, whatever I get from it better be rewarding, because it would be pretty damn depressing if it wasn't.
Edit:
@Godwrath, that's my point. If you were in a top guild, your experience differed dramatically.
Also, the community argument again is flawed because if you were on a dead server (not new), all those features you listed helped out a ton for those servers.
Anyways, I'll stop derailing the thread. I did raid up to T3, guild made the decision to not progress into Naxx since it was near the start of TBC and there was very little point to do so.
Reading this is so bitter-sweet to me, I get a really hollow feeling in my stomach.
I think of all the amazing memories I made, people I got to know, virtual places I explored, all the gratification and anger, about all the fucking time I lost, about the relationship I destroyed, about how I had something to get out of bed for when I was really down, about the thing that actually got me down, about the money I spent and the damage I done to my health and again and again about the time I've wasted. I think of that one cave elvish cave in Felwood, whose design could be found in almost any elvish area, about my first druid to reach level 30, about hundreds of hours talking to people on TS, about my first "raid" to LBRS...
It's paradox that the thread makes me want to install the game instantly but at the same time throw my PC out of the window so I never have to waste another minute playing any computer game ever again.
And by the way, i haven't had a raid fight that was as exciting as c'thun, but hey, i was on a top guild so what do i know
Honestly, how can you even compare a fight like that with the brilliance that was Yogg'saron, the Lich King, Ragnaros and hell, even the Thunder King (although the lore in Pandaria is not that compelling since it's all completely new and no one has ever heard of Lei Shen before, can't wait to kill Garrosh though, that'll be one to remember). The raids today are just way more interesting to play because they are mechanically far more complex than in Vanilla. They are on a completely different level (gameplay wise of course, not lorewise).
You can say a lot about WoW, but raids have only become better and better.
Thorakh, i did yogg'saron and lich king. I haven't played seriously the game since Cata. And yes, i do say it, because it is my opinion. Not to speak that you are saying "the brilliance of Yogg'saron" which was heavily influenced by the design of the C'thun fight, except you didn't have death rays of doom with 40 persons. And i am not going to argue about that, because i think TBC raids were really good, WotLK well, felt a bit bland for me in the most part, but i don't know anything about the rest.
@ Judicator
Yes, they helped people on dead servers and people too lazy to find groups/friends. Meanwhile, the community goes to waste. It's not black and white "it's better/it's worse", that entirely depends on what you enjoy on a mmorpg. And what i am saying is that has an impact on gameplay, and because you and the majority prefer it, doesn't mean it does for me.
On June 10 2013 18:15 sidesprang wrote: If you want to play on a vanilla server. WoW-One (feenix) is by far the best in terms of scripting + playerbase.
Feenix has terrible scripts. I played almost 4 years ago and they still can't script properly. It's only good because so many idiots play there.
Since when does Razorgore have 3 drakes come out that you must nuke down? Since when does Prophet Skeram MC random people, not the closest person to him? Since when does Onyxia Head become lootable for an entire raid? Since when do Sunders not stack from different Tanks? Since when does Healing Waves not stack from different Shamans?
Sorry, but Feenix is literally the worst server I've ever played on. Community sucked (still does); the scripting is just abysmal. The only servers that had anything good were ScriptCraft and TwinStar.cz
WoW raiding is definitely dead. Populations pickup early summer and die right as school starts. I've been doing it for 4 years now. It's never fun.
And don't fucking pretend like you've "raided" in Vanilla.
Kerafyrm <Death and Taxes>
It does not Dunno Skeram aint out on ED It's not lootable for everyone It does stack Dunno dont play horde
And you should not compare old warsong scripts to what is currently on ED (and just got ported to warsong). I never claimed stuff to be 100% blizzlike but it is more than close enough to me. And most important the ED server which im playing on have a very blzzlike community and ppl are not all whiny and want free pixels. And i definetly do not know about a server with good scripts that also have a good playerbase. Feel free to show me one.
And chill down man, no reason to get mad an act like a douchbag mr DnT raider.
Usually the people that i've seen play personally and QQ about vanilla being a horrible grind, gearing up to start raiding was hard, it took too long to get a group/finish an instance were really bad. I mean like, i was never in a top 300 guild or w/e since my schedule blowed chunks but i never really had any issues with guilds not being able to get a raid ready and whatnot (the only thing, poor pally buffs, bless your soul if you played a paladin before buff lasted longer). Only one guild had loot drama, guild blew up, got into a top 3 guild in my server the week after.
I had a friend cry about cataclysm heroics before they got infinitely easier...like really?
On June 11 2013 07:56 Godwrath wrote: Yes, they helped people on dead servers and people too lazy to find groups/friends. Meanwhile, the community goes to waste. It's not black and white "it's better/it's worse", that entirely depends on what you enjoy on a mmorpg. And what i am saying is that has an impact on gameplay, and because you and the majority prefer it, doesn't mean it does for me.
Community went to waste because more people started playing the game and the people you played stopped playing. All of those features you listed never kept my from keeping up with people I played with and actually enjoyed playing with. If you built worthwhile relationships with people that you played with, then none of this should have affected you.
I logged into my long-forgotten lv. 60 mage on Warsong (12x server)
i have less than 1 gold, mostly abysmal gear (including NO shoulders) and no idea where to go or where to start. i'm obviously going to be joining DM/BRS groups, but is there anything I can do as a solo player to get quick gold/loot?
all i'm doing now is farming twilight texts because I heard those sell well on the AH
I don't see how people can say that vanilla raiding was a major time sink. My old guild had time to raid at the top level for our faction while producing several High Warlords in a row. It really wasn't "A second job" once you had your core together.
Hell the guild I was in that became so good initially started because two guilds allied together and raided MC together before we merged into 1 guild. Just learning MC it wasn't THAT huge of a time sink. Once multiple raids came out yes the time went up but even the farming wasn't difficult at all because once you reached the point where you needed to up your farming your guild was in a good place for resources. I remember farming shit for my part but it was a minor amount of the time I played. Vanilla WoW DID have some things that looking back now were really blah but they weren't horrible. Yes doing Pug end game dungeons for your raiding set was a pain but yet again....Guild of a decent size = in house runs = easy gear up and attunement. We used to make a game of running UBRS and LBRS to see what group could clear it faster when we were attuning new recruits.
The only thing that is different today is that with all the new system you don't need a guild to experience all the content, just que and raid. Join a guild if you want to get into the "hard modes" or w/e.
I lucked out being apart of a guild that would merge with another guild to become a badass pve/pvp guild though. I do wonder if I would have kept playing if I hadn't been in a guild that was able to progress through content.
It does suck in a way that "only a few" guilds would be on that level but then again they were also made up of a majority of the "quality" players on that server.
However, all that really meant was that the content was disseminated slower, because once my guild was on BWL and not really doing MC as much, many of those lower end guilds had enough info and shit to start progressing through MC. So I do think the "vast majority didn't get to experience end game" is rather an exaggeration. As long as you could recruit enough to fill a raid you could run at least Ony and learn that with relative ease (plus so many guides came out). That plus dungeons and MC wasn't exactly rocket science later on so many people DID get to experience it, just it was more spread out with the "elites" trying and progressing there first so they were able to have a few months of "look at my shiny shit" before other guilds would be able to.
On June 11 2013 06:45 Meow-Meow wrote: Reading this is so bitter-sweet to me, I get a really hollow feeling in my stomach.
I think of all the amazing memories I made, people I got to know, virtual places I explored, all the gratification and anger, about all the fucking time I lost, about the relationship I destroyed, about how I had something to get out of bed for when I was really down, about the thing that actually got me down, about the money I spent and the damage I done to my health and again and again about the time I've wasted. I think of that one cave elvish cave in Felwood, whose design could be found in almost any elvish area, about my first druid to reach level 30, about hundreds of hours talking to people on TS, about my first "raid" to LBRS...
It's paradox that the thread makes me want to install the game instantly but at the same time throw my PC out of the window so I never have to waste another minute playing any computer game ever again.
On June 11 2013 06:32 Judicator wrote: I wouldn't mind walking to instances if their locations didn't all blow chunks and required all 5 individuals to travel there. That led to certain places not being touched at all simply because the time investment wasn't justified.
The locking content concept is dumb, because progression was that linear. This isn't about you and your willingness to spend that time, its about you and 39+ others willing to get together on multiple days of the week to raid and to spend that time. That's not rewarding, you can go ask your raid leaders and organizers how fucking of a headache it was to herd 39 of you into a raid. Then if ANYTHING went wrong with your raiding core, good luck doing anything.
The problem with vanilla WoW is that most of its end game concepts were built on the basis that IF everything went right, the game was legitimately enjoyable, good, w/e. The problem is that real world doesn't allow that for like 99% of the player base. What is everything? Getting gear that was required for pre-raiding, getting into a raiding guild that somehow needed your class AND spec (remember this? boomkins/ferals, shadow priests, locks, fire mage pre-AQ, etc. GOOD LUCK), farming when you're not raiding so you can raid, and oh hoping to whatever deity you believed in that your guild doesn't have some e-drama or a geared individual leaving/stop playing so you can continue raiding. There were too many barriers to keep that concept from continuing when the collapse of any one of those things can/will simply mean you aren't doing anything worthwhile in level 60.
Also, that rewarding feeling? To me, that's your brain keeping yourself from committing suicide if you ever figured out how shitty of an experience you were actually having. Working a second job that somehow costs me money, social life (how many of you thought you could go out on a raid night during progression and hoped your ass wouldn't get replaced? especially if you weren't geared AND if your class was easily replaceable), and time. Yeah, whatever I get from it better be rewarding, because it would be pretty damn depressing if it wasn't.
Edit:
@Godwrath, that's my point. If you were in a top guild, your experience differed dramatically.
Also, the community argument again is flawed because if you were on a dead server (not new), all those features you listed helped out a ton for those servers.
Anyways, I'll stop derailing the thread. I did raid up to T3, guild made the decision to not progress into Naxx since it was near the start of TBC and there was very little point to do so.
u hate all of the reasons most Vanilla players enjoyed and miss it... the game wasnt a mindless "click Q... teleport to instance, run thru using all of your AoE"
there was stuff like having to group up and meet people from your server, having then to run to the instance. And then when inside you actually had to use your abilities correctly, instead of just smashing ur AoE ones...
And Raids actually required coordination, planning, class balance, They were giant time commitments, and you actually had to possess some sort of skill or knowledge of the game and its mechanics in order to defeat the bosses...
Literally raiding or even instance'ing now is just so sad to me that I cant enjoy it at all. When you are max level and people still dont understand what their class can do, used to need to do back in the older Versions of the game...
meh
but everyone knows Blizzard shifted focuses a LONG time ago, from catering to gamers who appreciated skill, to trying to appeal to the lowest common denominators of gamers... They wanted to bring in as many people as possible, and doing so required the content be enjoyable/doable by mentally handicapped players who would get to max level and never understand proper itemization or talent tree utilization...
meh i miss Vanilla, even TBC, back when there was some sort of community to the game, and you actually knew and recognized the players around you. Back when epic loot meant "omg that guy actually knows how to play, and understands raiding and grouping etc" where from TBC on it just meant "Wow that guys been max level for like.. a week u can tell by his full epics" then later expansions it was "wow he must have got max level yesterday, he still has 1 blue item on..noob"
The thing i miss most about Vanilla, was its teh ONLY version of the game that was actually Horde vs Alliance. from then on we began to magically share main hubs/cities with our sworn enemies... made me miss the roots of Warcraft, and ruined all world pvp.
On June 11 2013 04:44 Trizz wrote: All vanilla servers are pretty bad atm, corecraft will be the best scripted private server in a long time but is TBC. Coming in a month or two.
I apologize. CoreCraft was also one of THE best servers I've ever played on, and that was my first and only TBC experience. If you were interested in Vanilla WoW, ScriptCraft was all there was and TwinStar.cz is dead due to a very toxic Czech community.
And Raids actually required coordination, planning, class balance, They were giant time commitments, and you actually had to possess some sort of skill or knowledge of the game and its mechanics in order to defeat the bosses...
Literally raiding or even instance'ing now is just so sad to me that I cant enjoy it at all. When you are max level and people still dont understand what their class can do, used to need to do back in the older Versions of the game...
Ugh, don't confuse LFR with real raiding please. Raiding in vanilla was a joke compared to raiding now.
On June 11 2013 08:51 xMiragex wrote: Usually the people that i've seen play personally and QQ about vanilla being a horrible grind, gearing up to start raiding was hard, it took too long to get a group/finish an instance were really bad. I mean like, i was never in a top 300 guild or w/e since my schedule blowed chunks but i never really had any issues with guilds not being able to get a raid ready and whatnot (the only thing, poor pally buffs, bless your soul if you played a paladin before buff lasted longer). Only one guild had loot drama, guild blew up, got into a top 3 guild in my server the week after.
I had a friend cry about cataclysm heroics before they got infinitely easier...like really?
Cataclysm heroics pre-nerf was the best time I had in WoW. Perfectly doable without sinking your whole life into a damn game, still required you to know how to play your class and play properly together as a group. It was so fun to read on various forums how everyone whined how the heroics were impossible to heal while I was doing perfectly fine in my holy priest spec.
Got the archivement mount before the heroics were nerfed, went on to raids but trying to found a guild when you have a fulltime job etc... not very likely. I really wish there were more MMOs which focused on 5man content and made it challenging and fun.
OH HEY, remember in Vanilla how there are certain levels where there are NO QUESTS that aren't red for you and you have to either find a group willing to run you through said quests or grind fucking boars for ages to level?
On June 11 2013 06:45 Meow-Meow wrote: Reading this is so bitter-sweet to me, I get a really hollow feeling in my stomach.
I think of all the amazing memories I made, people I got to know, virtual places I explored, all the gratification and anger, about all the fucking time I lost, about the relationship I destroyed, about how I had something to get out of bed for when I was really down, about the thing that actually got me down, about the money I spent and the damage I done to my health and again and again about the time I've wasted. I think of that one cave elvish cave in Felwood, whose design could be found in almost any elvish area, about my first druid to reach level 30, about hundreds of hours talking to people on TS, about my first "raid" to LBRS...
It's paradox that the thread makes me want to install the game instantly but at the same time throw my PC out of the window so I never have to waste another minute playing any computer game ever again.
Holy shit you just summed my thoughts and memories about WoW perfectly. I've tried a lot of MMO's after WoW but i quit all of them in like 2 weeks or so. I don't think i'll ever experience something like vanilla WoW again.
meh i miss Vanilla, even TBC, back when there was some sort of community to the game, and you actually knew and recognized the players around you.
This was the best part about WoW back in the day. IRC channels where we flamed the silly alliance and challenged their best BG groups etc and even the forums were really active.
On June 11 2013 07:56 Godwrath wrote: Yes, they helped people on dead servers and people too lazy to find groups/friends. Meanwhile, the community goes to waste. It's not black and white "it's better/it's worse", that entirely depends on what you enjoy on a mmorpg. And what i am saying is that has an impact on gameplay, and because you and the majority prefer it, doesn't mean it does for me.
Community went to waste because more people started playing the game and the people you played stopped playing. All of those features you listed never kept my from keeping up with people I played with and actually enjoyed playing with. If you built worthwhile relationships with people that you played with, then none of this should have affected you.
No, that's not how it works. More people = More servers, it has nothing to do with your own servers which were always around the same pop (i don't know about yours, but mine was most of the time pop capped). And i am not talking about my guild, or people i used to group/chat, mostly because i still do, but you just don't get it. It's about recognizing players because you interacted only with your own server, that creates stronger ties/antagonisms.
Server communities goes to waste because they stop interacting with each other, due to cross server features, and a dead contested world because of the new travel mechanichs. And i will repeat this, but i don't mind you liking WoW nowadays better, but that the majority prefers the convenience won't make me like it.
On June 11 2013 16:04 deth2munkies wrote: OH HEY, remember in Vanilla how there are certain levels where there are NO QUESTS that aren't red for you and you have to either find a group willing to run you through said quests or grind fucking boars for ages to level?
Yeah, I do now.
Alliance quests are the worst, i can tell you that. But boars are evil, and must die.
meh i miss Vanilla, even TBC, back when there was some sort of community to the game, and you actually knew and recognized the players around you.
This was the best part about WoW back in the day. IRC channels where we flamed the silly alliance and challenged their best BG groups etc and even the forums were really active.
Exactly. Also server forums flamewars were awesome.
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
When I last played on feenix vanila like a year ago, there were a couple hundred people online usually, It sometimes even exceeded 1k, which is pretty good for a private server imho. You could reliably do BGs and instances. What I really liked about the server is that it has been maintained for years, so its not like many others which are abandoned after a while. The downside is they are ddosed a lot, so sometimes its unplayable for days. They focused a lot on scripting dungeons to be exactly blizzlike, and as bug-free as possible. And you can request 1x exp rate. However i have not played on it for a while, so maybe somethings have changed. Based on my old experiences though i would recommend it.
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
When I last played on feenix vanila like a year ago, there were a couple hundred people online usually, It sometimes even exceeded 1k, which is pretty good for a private server imho. You could reliably do BGs and instances. What I really liked about the server is that it has been maintained for years, so its not like many others which are abandoned after a while. The downside is they are ddosed a lot, so sometimes its unplayable for days. They focused a lot on scripting dungeons to be exactly blizzlike, and as bug-free as possible. And you can request 1x exp rate. However i have not played on it for a while, so maybe somethings have changed. Based on my old experiences though i would recommend it.
IMO, the stability of being maintained for years is the most important aspect. Sure, these servers usually have a much higher leveling rate, but how MMOs work is that you invest time to improve yourself. There's really no point to invest all that time to level up to max and then raid to get a few nice drops if the server goes down after a month and never comes up again.
Who cares if a boss works slightly different compared to the official servers compared to losing all your effort?
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
When I last played on feenix vanila like a year ago, there were a couple hundred people online usually, It sometimes even exceeded 1k, which is pretty good for a private server imho. You could reliably do BGs and instances. What I really liked about the server is that it has been maintained for years, so its not like many others which are abandoned after a while. The downside is they are ddosed a lot, so sometimes its unplayable for days. They focused a lot on scripting dungeons to be exactly blizzlike, and as bug-free as possible. And you can request 1x exp rate. However i have not played on it for a while, so maybe somethings have changed. Based on my old experiences though i would recommend it.
Well if they focused a lot on the dungeons they failed pretty hard (and they didn't, they pressed hard to bring naxx out without ever fixing aq/bwl/mc/5 man dungeons)
Seriously, the server exists for like 3 or 4 years and they still don't manage to script their instances decently, not to mention the skills.
The only good thing about feenix is the population, that's why I said you have to choose between a lot of people or good scripts.
I have never played WoW before, and I'd like to try it just to see what it is like. Would this vanilla WoW server be a good place to start or is it really noob unfriendly? What would be the best place to start? I'm considering various private servers, or maybe the free trial. If I really enjoy it, maybe I'll buy the real thing, but reluctant since I'm way too far behind at this point.
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
When I last played on feenix vanila like a year ago, there were a couple hundred people online usually, It sometimes even exceeded 1k, which is pretty good for a private server imho. You could reliably do BGs and instances. What I really liked about the server is that it has been maintained for years, so its not like many others which are abandoned after a while. The downside is they are ddosed a lot, so sometimes its unplayable for days. They focused a lot on scripting dungeons to be exactly blizzlike, and as bug-free as possible. And you can request 1x exp rate. However i have not played on it for a while, so maybe somethings have changed. Based on my old experiences though i would recommend it.
Well if they focused a lot on the dungeons they failed pretty hard (and they didn't, they pressed hard to bring naxx out without ever fixing aq/bwl/mc/5 man dungeons)
Seriously, the server exists for like 3 or 4 years and they still don't manage to script their instances decently, not to mention the skills.
The only good thing about feenix is the population, that's why I said you have to choose between a lot of people or good scripts.
I've had no problems with deadmines and no problems reported for stockades, Molten Core, or SFK by my guildies. The only scripted thing that had a penchant for screwing up was the Bly encounter in ZF.
On June 12 2013 12:40 Chairman Ray wrote: I have never played WoW before, and I'd like to try it just to see what it is like. Would this vanilla WoW server be a good place to start or is it really noob unfriendly? What would be the best place to start? I'm considering various private servers, or maybe the free trial. If I really enjoy it, maybe I'll buy the real thing, but reluctant since I'm way too far behind at this point.
The reason people hate the new versions is because they're noob friendly. If you're a noob, start with retail.
To put it in perspective, earlier today, I had a period where there were no possible quests for me to pick up without walking for over an hour through hostile territory, so I killed boars and various bandits for 2 hours to level up...as a priest...with a wand.
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
When I last played on feenix vanila like a year ago, there were a couple hundred people online usually, It sometimes even exceeded 1k, which is pretty good for a private server imho. You could reliably do BGs and instances. What I really liked about the server is that it has been maintained for years, so its not like many others which are abandoned after a while. The downside is they are ddosed a lot, so sometimes its unplayable for days. They focused a lot on scripting dungeons to be exactly blizzlike, and as bug-free as possible. And you can request 1x exp rate. However i have not played on it for a while, so maybe somethings have changed. Based on my old experiences though i would recommend it.
Well if they focused a lot on the dungeons they failed pretty hard (and they didn't, they pressed hard to bring naxx out without ever fixing aq/bwl/mc/5 man dungeons)
Seriously, the server exists for like 3 or 4 years and they still don't manage to script their instances decently, not to mention the skills.
The only good thing about feenix is the population, that's why I said you have to choose between a lot of people or good scripts.
I've had no problems with deadmines and no problems reported for stockades, Molten Core, or SFK by my guildies. The only scripted thing that had a penchant for screwing up was the Bly encounter in ZF.
Idk about low level instances, pretty sure you can run them but the bosses just don't do anything at all.
Couple of bugs I know for MC out of my head:
-Lucifron walkpath bugged -Imps before luci and magmadar don't add all at once -In general most bosses deal too much damage -Majo and all his adds spawn at the same spot -Trash has no abilities at all (nearly) -Shazzrah selfbuff not dispellable -Geddont doesn't do his 2 % emote+ability -Harbringer adds don't heal each other -Raggy ranged knockback not working
That's just out of my head, there's plenty more.
Might be some of them are fixed by now because it has been quite some time I have raided on feenix. But that's just an impression how 90% of the server got its gear. And I could do the same for most classes and instances.
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
When I last played on feenix vanila like a year ago, there were a couple hundred people online usually, It sometimes even exceeded 1k, which is pretty good for a private server imho. You could reliably do BGs and instances. What I really liked about the server is that it has been maintained for years, so its not like many others which are abandoned after a while. The downside is they are ddosed a lot, so sometimes its unplayable for days. They focused a lot on scripting dungeons to be exactly blizzlike, and as bug-free as possible. And you can request 1x exp rate. However i have not played on it for a while, so maybe somethings have changed. Based on my old experiences though i would recommend it.
Well if they focused a lot on the dungeons they failed pretty hard (and they didn't, they pressed hard to bring naxx out without ever fixing aq/bwl/mc/5 man dungeons)
Seriously, the server exists for like 3 or 4 years and they still don't manage to script their instances decently, not to mention the skills.
The only good thing about feenix is the population, that's why I said you have to choose between a lot of people or good scripts.
I've had no problems with deadmines and no problems reported for stockades, Molten Core, or SFK by my guildies. The only scripted thing that had a penchant for screwing up was the Bly encounter in ZF.
Idk about low level instances, pretty sure you can run them but the bosses just don't do anything at all.
Couple of bugs I know for MC out of my head:
-Lucifron walkpath bugged -Imps before luci and magmadar don't add all at once -In general most bosses deal too much damage -Majo and all his adds spawn at the same spot -Trash has no abilities at all (nearly) -Shazzrah selfbuff not dispellable -Geddont doesn't do his 2 % emote+ability -Harbringer adds don't heal each other -Raggy ranged knockback not working
That's just out of my head, there's plenty more.
Might be some of them are fixed by now because it has been quite some time I have raided on feenix. But that's just an impression how 90% of the server got its gear. And I could do the same for most classes and instances.
This is a relatively new server that launched last year (Emerald Dream), they must have fixed most if not all of those.
Vanilla raiding was infinitely more fun than raiding in more recent expansions. While the content wasn't especially difficult, the fun and challenge was doing it with other people and figuring out most of the content yourself. Now with things like LFR and so much PTR testing, most of the encounters are solved with guides/videos before things even hit live servers.
I miss TBC pvp too. Oh well, WoW was good for several years.
On June 11 2013 11:53 TheZanthex wrote: Realistically how many people play on Feenix? I don't want to waste my time downloading a client for a dead and / or really buggy server.
Either good scripts or many people, can't get both right now sadly
When I last played on feenix vanila like a year ago, there were a couple hundred people online usually, It sometimes even exceeded 1k, which is pretty good for a private server imho. You could reliably do BGs and instances. What I really liked about the server is that it has been maintained for years, so its not like many others which are abandoned after a while. The downside is they are ddosed a lot, so sometimes its unplayable for days. They focused a lot on scripting dungeons to be exactly blizzlike, and as bug-free as possible. And you can request 1x exp rate. However i have not played on it for a while, so maybe somethings have changed. Based on my old experiences though i would recommend it.
Well if they focused a lot on the dungeons they failed pretty hard (and they didn't, they pressed hard to bring naxx out without ever fixing aq/bwl/mc/5 man dungeons)
Seriously, the server exists for like 3 or 4 years and they still don't manage to script their instances decently, not to mention the skills.
The only good thing about feenix is the population, that's why I said you have to choose between a lot of people or good scripts.
I've had no problems with deadmines and no problems reported for stockades, Molten Core, or SFK by my guildies. The only scripted thing that had a penchant for screwing up was the Bly encounter in ZF.
Idk about low level instances, pretty sure you can run them but the bosses just don't do anything at all.
Couple of bugs I know for MC out of my head:
-Lucifron walkpath bugged -Imps before luci and magmadar don't add all at once -In general most bosses deal too much damage -Majo and all his adds spawn at the same spot -Trash has no abilities at all (nearly) -Shazzrah selfbuff not dispellable -Geddont doesn't do his 2 % emote+ability -Harbringer adds don't heal each other -Raggy ranged knockback not working
That's just out of my head, there's plenty more.
Might be some of them are fixed by now because it has been quite some time I have raided on feenix. But that's just an impression how 90% of the server got its gear. And I could do the same for most classes and instances.
This is a relatively new server that launched last year (Emerald Dream), they must have fixed most if not all of those.
Emerald Dream is just another server by feenix, feenix itself and its oldest server exists for 3 years or so. All the bugs on their main server are also to be found on Emerald Dream.
Unfortunately this thread caught mine and a friend of mines eye. I quit after vanilla because i didnt find it as fun for what i played for.
Me and him are currently leveling on the vanilla emerald dream server, 1x experience etc. If anyone cares to join - handle is skittlz. At the least going to sixty and doing all the non-raid dungeons, hopefully get down on a lot of pvp. Shame the x1 server isnt as populated.
Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
i disagree. I loved the pvp, doing premades vs other premades from the same server, especially pre cross server, getting super real about the match. The best times weren't necessarily the game itself, and i loved the pvp in vanilla lol. but the premades and fun i had with the old horde group on black dragon flight server, getting people to warlord n such, good fun.
I reached general before i stopped, the pvp was great but a different dynamic from arena fighting.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Death Knights broke the first 2 seasons of Wrath...and I agree from a balance perspective, but from a fun perspective: there was no comparison to the Tarren Mill/Crossroads battles that happened in Vanilla. That and the old AV with all the quests and extra NPCs gave it a much more epic feel. Plus, next to nobody knew what the fuck they were doing for the first year or so, even HWLs were bad compared to people who were "good at PvP" in BC.
Again, it was more "balanced" and "competitive" later, but more FUN earlier.
On June 13 2013 01:16 Masq wrote: Vanilla raiding was infinitely more fun than raiding in more recent expansions. While the content wasn't especially difficult, the fun and challenge was doing it with other people and figuring out most of the content yourself. Now with things like LFR and so much PTR testing, most of the encounters are solved with guides/videos before things even hit live servers.
We had Clockwork (now the famous Android dev) programming our RDX on the fly and live updating each of our clients with new timings/instructions. We also spent like 2 hours practicing rotations before 4HM. Not actually doing the 4HM fight, just practicing running around in the room before it and making sure people were rotating. >.>
Although we did cheat off Nihilum's KT video to learn it a lot faster.
I registered on the server but I'd like to find some liquidians to play with. I am a complete noob to WoW so any tip is apreciated. My name ingame is Swayhill, PM me so we can play together.
On June 13 2013 19:06 loginn wrote: I registered on the server but I'd like to find some liquidians to play with. I am a complete noob to WoW so any tip is apreciated. My name ingame is Swayhill, PM me so we can play together.
1) Alliance or Horde?
2) If you're not doing this for nostalgia value, you're going to get frustrated and ragequit very soon.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Death Knights broke the first 2 seasons of Wrath...and I agree from a balance perspective, but from a fun perspective: there was no comparison to the Tarren Mill/Crossroads battles that happened in Vanilla. That and the old AV with all the quests and extra NPCs gave it a much more epic feel. Plus, next to nobody knew what the fuck they were doing for the first year or so, even HWLs were bad compared to people who were "good at PvP" in BC.
Again, it was more "balanced" and "competitive" later, but more FUN earlier.
HWLs were just people who had way too much time on their hands, I literally grinded up my way to up Commander 1 time and had to to step back and re-examine my life.
BGs just didn't play out right after the changes to it, especially AV. I can understand that 3 hour AVs aren't fun all the time, but to have both sides just ride past each other was umm no thanks.
Arenas was interesting namely because it was funny watching Blizzard go against the impossible. I was genuinely interested on how they were going to deal with the PvP versus PvE dilemma, the dumpster tier players complaining about EVERYTHING, and where they were going with each expansion.
WSG was fun but much too turtle-y against evenly matched teams, plus gear played such a huge role. We used to run group WSG's in our Sapph gear just to piss off all the frost mages. Our MT was essentially unkillable by anyone in HWL gear.
I thought AB was the most balanced of any of the PvP options and I think it would've been Blizzard's best opportunity to make an ESPORT out of WoW. Lots of points of action but easy to jump around and you have objectives to look towards rather than just players dying - it's something for viewers to keep track of (like towers/bases in LoL/DotA/SC2.) You'd also be able to use a spectator camera to get neat panoramic views, plus the tension of multipronged/sneaky attacks.
Plus it was less gear dependent than anything else. When we rerolled, we would get destroyed in straight up fights against T3 teams but we could outmaneuver most of them and our teamwork was much better, so we pulled off some pretty hilarious upsets against DnT's and Dread's, in our lvl 53 blues.
On June 14 2013 00:42 Jibba wrote: WSG was fun but much too turtle-y against evenly matched teams, plus gear played such a huge role. We used to run group WSG's in our Sapph gear just to piss off all the frost mages. Our MT was essentially unkillable by anyone in HWL gear.
I thought AB was the most balanced of any of the PvP options and I think it would've been Blizzard's best opportunity to make an ESPORT out of WoW. Lots of points of action but easy to jump around and you have objectives to look towards rather than just players dying - it's something for viewers to keep track of (like towers/bases in LoL/DotA/SC2.) You'd also be able to use a spectator camera to get neat panoramic views, plus the tension of multipronged/sneaky attacks.
Plus it was less gear dependent than anything else. When we rerolled, we would get destroyed in straight up fights against T3 teams but we could outmaneuver most of them and our teamwork was much better, so we pulled off some pretty hilarious upsets against DnT's and Dread's, in our lvl 53 blues.
The alliance teams were bitching so much that out MT/flag carrier was wearing his fire gear so he took like no dmg against fire got banned for a day lol.
On June 14 2013 00:42 Jibba wrote: WSG was fun but much too turtle-y against evenly matched teams, plus gear played such a huge role. We used to run group WSG's in our Sapph gear just to piss off all the frost mages. Our MT was essentially unkillable by anyone in HWL gear.
I thought AB was the most balanced of any of the PvP options and I think it would've been Blizzard's best opportunity to make an ESPORT out of WoW. Lots of points of action but easy to jump around and you have objectives to look towards rather than just players dying - it's something for viewers to keep track of (like towers/bases in LoL/DotA/SC2.) You'd also be able to use a spectator camera to get neat panoramic views, plus the tension of multipronged/sneaky attacks.
Plus it was less gear dependent than anything else. When we rerolled, we would get destroyed in straight up fights against T3 teams but we could outmaneuver most of them and our teamwork was much better, so we pulled off some pretty hilarious upsets against DnT's and Dread's, in our lvl 53 blues.
The alliance teams were bitching so much that out MT/flag carrier was wearing his fire gear so he took like no dmg against fire got banned for a day lol.
Alliance has no room to bitch, they get Blessing of Freedom.
On June 13 2013 19:06 loginn wrote: I registered on the server but I'd like to find some liquidians to play with. I am a complete noob to WoW so any tip is apreciated. My name ingame is Swayhill, PM me so we can play together.
1) Alliance or Horde?
2) If you're not doing this for nostalgia value, you're going to get frustrated and ragequit very soon.
On June 07 2013 23:43 jeeeeohn wrote: Also, TBC was really good; and Wrath had fantastic quests and zones in general.
The general trend with WoW has been that the solo content is improving but the dungeons have gone down the drain ever since Wrath. I swear, with enough conditioning I could actually level a priest through dungeons while asleep. There is no substance there anymore, thanks to heirloom gear and Luck of the Draw.
Zul'Aman was the last great dungeon in my opinion.
On June 13 2013 19:06 loginn wrote: I registered on the server but I'd like to find some liquidians to play with. I am a complete noob to WoW so any tip is apreciated. My name ingame is Swayhill, PM me so we can play together.
1) Alliance or Horde?
2) If you're not doing this for nostalgia value, you're going to get frustrated and ragequit very soon.
Alliance
If you're on Emerald Dream, you can add Svelte, that's my priest
On June 07 2013 23:43 jeeeeohn wrote: Also, TBC was really good; and Wrath had fantastic quests and zones in general.
The general trend with WoW has been that the solo content is improving but the dungeons have gone down the drain ever since Wrath. I swear, with enough conditioning I could actually level a priest through dungeons while asleep. There is no substance there anymore, thanks to heirloom gear and Luck of the Draw.
Zul'Aman was the last great dungeon in my opinion.
You have to respect Ulduar. Hell, even Bastion of Twilight was pretty good.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
On June 11 2013 16:04 deth2munkies wrote: OH HEY, remember in Vanilla how there are certain levels where there are NO QUESTS that aren't red for you and you have to either find a group willing to run you through said quests or grind fucking boars for ages to level?
Yeah, I do now.
I don't :o I was usually a couple of levels higher than the recommended.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Idk I had kind of the opposite experience, I barely PvPed on retail, but when I started playing on Vanilla private servers I started to pvp quite a bit, idk why I had a lot more fun doing it than on retail.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
I was young and really bad at the game at the time, but even the top players at the time were not experienced at all with the game, and im not talking about gear because this part is not that hard to figure out. And no you didnt know what you were doing day 1.
But even knowledge/skill apart, the game is not refined enough to allow you to do a whole lot, compared to what you could do in arenas in tbc or wotlk.
But WoW Vanilla and TBC were definitely my fav periods in this game. Clearing Naxx40, TK and Sunwell pre-nerfs was just awesome. I really feel like Blizz started to destroy the sense of community towards the end of TBC and ended it with WotLK. The game has never been the same since.
I'm playing at the moment on emerald dream and it's damn awesome (www.emeralddream.com). You quickly forget how much of the communal aspect Blizzard killed off with flying mounts, LFD/LFR tools, easily obtainable gear.... I could keep going. In my eyes they're both completely different games.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
What? Where were you finding that much +shadow spell damage? I thought most of the +spell damage came with the ZG patch and after.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
What? Where were you finding that much +shadow spell damage? I thought most of the +spell damage came with the ZG patch and after.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
What? Where were you finding that much +shadow spell damage? I thought most of the +spell damage came with the ZG patch and after.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
What? Where were you finding that much +shadow spell damage? I thought most of the +spell damage came with the ZG patch and after.
probably green items with suffix of shadow wrath
Then he had like 2k hp and died from 2 crits.
Which is why you run around with succubus and seduce, and 2-shot them first.
Man, I checked out whats left of my pictures I took vanilla (the ones I have left) and the nostalgia is hitting hard. I lost so many pictures sadly,but luckily I managed to upload like 200 from back in the day.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
What? Where were you finding that much +shadow spell damage? I thought most of the +spell damage came with the ZG patch and after.
probably green items with suffix of shadow wrath
Then he had like 2k hp and died from 2 crits.
Which is why you run around with succubus and seduce, and 2-shot them first.
Yeah, this didn't actually work very well against decent players. Maybe for blowing people up in AV.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
Yea, the PvP in vanilla is pretty bad. And by that I mean by todays standards.
I am playing on a vanilla server atm and I have a lot of fun having a guild again and progressing with it. However, im barely touching the PvP eventho I was doing only that on retail almost (until I stopped when sc2 came out). The PvP in vanilla is way too unpolished. You either die in one stun, or you kill the other guy with one stun or ability. The PvP trinket does nothing, the number of spells is too limited, the CCs are too long etc...
I had a lot of fun doing PvP (especially Xroad raids and stuff) in the days, but it was mostly because no one knew how to play the game. When people actually know how to be optimal with their spells in vanilla, it becomes really boring.
If I want to do some PvP I go on a tbc server (even tho the RNG is quite obnoxious in tbc) or wotlk servers (like AT).
Did you have access to high end gear to compete ? Did you play another MMORPG before ?
Because i knew what i was doing since day 1 (ie : 150 shadow spell damage first month at release, while people was getting stamina and intellect on warlocks lol), and i knew people who did aswell. And played with and against them quite often.
I know the majority of players were inexperienced players, but i didn't care playing against them, but against players with experience from other games, that i had met over the years. And the pvp was great at that level.
What? Where were you finding that much +shadow spell damage? I thought most of the +spell damage came with the ZG patch and after.
probably green items with suffix of shadow wrath
Then he had like 2k hp and died from 2 crits.
Which is why you run around with succubus and seduce, and 2-shot them first.
Yeah, this didn't actually work very well against decent players. Maybe for blowing people up in AV.
Was there any else to do back in the day if you weren't on a PvP server lol?
On June 22 2013 15:30 Jibba wrote: Reroll on a PvP server.
I don't even wanna think about the grind that was needed to lvl 1-60. I remember I had the entire 1-60 horde lvling guide printed out and on my desk just to lvl people fastest way possible. It was by that troll hunter but I don't remember the name gdi. It was like a tiny novel on my desk with the amounts of pages that was needed...
Best Vanilla server Ive seen in quite a while. Good economy, always more than 1500 players online, stabile economy!
I just fell in love. PM if you want to create something in game!
Ive been on ED for about two weeks now, leveling with a friend. Its my first experience on a private server but Ive had a blast so far. Barrens chat is very active and there is always an infernal at xroads (lol)
I just hit 25 on my priest, and if anyone on horde needs priest heals, hit me up.
Best Vanilla server Ive seen in quite a while. Good economy, always more than 1500 players online, stabile economy!
I just fell in love. PM if you want to create something in game!
Ive been on ED for about two weeks now, leveling with a friend. Its my first experience on a private server but Ive had a blast so far. Barrens chat is very active and there is always an infernal at xroads (lol)
I just hit 25 on my priest, and if anyone on horde needs priest heals, hit me up.
Hey,
Whats your ingame tag? Would be fun to have some people to chat around with . Going to start playing quite a bit as soon as my final exam are done this week!
Come join us! As stated earlier, the server is pretty damn awesome!
On June 22 2013 15:30 Jibba wrote: Reroll on a PvP server.
I don't even wanna think about the grind that was needed to lvl 1-60. I remember I had the entire 1-60 horde lvling guide printed out and on my desk just to lvl people fastest way possible. It was by that troll hunter but I don't remember the name gdi. It was like a tiny novel on my desk with the amounts of pages that was needed...
That was sort of like my own WoW playing career.
I've played it like a year and almost hit 60 when Burning Crusade came out. Oh how miserable I was. Ive spent all that time leveling and grinding my undead warlock just so i could play pvp and get some of that sweet pvp gear. I come so close and then they screw me over and add whole new 10 levels to grind. Gah. Ive then managed to hit 63 since than after a long and painfull period of on/off playing. I became too bored and couldnt get myself to do all that grind to 70 and ive never touched the game since.
For me, i have never any expirence about vanilla because i start play WoW during Lich King untill Catalysm. Just share for game play is very good because tallent is make class different. Now looking game same as WoW, have tallent with tank class, raid and pvp.
On June 22 2013 15:30 Jibba wrote: Reroll on a PvP server.
I don't even wanna think about the grind that was needed to lvl 1-60. I remember I had the entire 1-60 horde lvling guide printed out and on my desk just to lvl people fastest way possible. It was by that troll hunter but I don't remember the name gdi. It was like a tiny novel on my desk with the amounts of pages that was needed...
On June 24 2013 18:20 Arnstein wrote: Is it easy to get access to vanilla if you already have the normal wow installation on your pc? And can you then easily switch back?
No, you need to download the correct client and install it, you can't switch your normal installation back and forth.
60 PvP was atrocious lol, what are you guys talking about? Warrs were unstoppable, and my 2h Enh with Draconic Maul was able to kill pretty much any caster in one windfury proc.
So many rose-colored glasses in this thread. I'd maybe play TBC or WotLK again though.
I have 3 chars on this server (one geared ally rogue, one geared horde rogue, and one badly geared ally war). By geared I mean pvp geared, with some pve geared mixed in, because you have to in TBC.
I'm playing on a french vanilla server atm, but there is not much to do other than raid the evenings, and those are pretty dead atm because of the summer holydays and stuff, and vanilla PvP is pretty terrible imo, and grindy. So if enough TL people want to play on Archangel, im down for it (well after I finish my exams in 4days).
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
Someone hasn't played 5s 2400+, where half the games someone dies in the first 20 seconds of the fight.
Although 2v2 has become really ridiculous, it's spend 15 minutes not being able to out damage/cc the healing until one team gets bored and makes a massive mistake.
I really miss the old 2v2 days where resilience wasn't as stupid.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
Someone hasn't played 5s 2400+, where half the games someone dies in the first 20 seconds of the fight.
Although 2v2 has become really ridiculous, it's spend 15 minutes not being able to out damage/cc the healing until one team gets bored and makes a massive mistake.
I really miss the old 2v2 days where resilience wasn't as stupid.
Wait you mean TBC? Did you forget the 1hour+ matches of druid/x vs druid/x? I generally play double dps in 2s for a reason.
On June 13 2013 05:48 Crownlol wrote: Vanilla was not as good as it is through rose-tinted goggles. At least from a PvP standpoint, BC/Wrath were infinitely better. Some people preferred BC arena, but Wrath had much better class representation.
How can you say Wrath had better representation? Which classes were underrepresented in BC? The only case I could see someone making is hunters, and they still were decently represented in draincomps like CLC.
On June 13 2013 01:16 Masq wrote: Vanilla raiding was infinitely more fun than raiding in more recent expansions. While the content wasn't especially difficult, the fun and challenge was doing it with other people and figuring out most of the content yourself. Now with things like LFR and so much PTR testing, most of the encounters are solved with guides/videos before things even hit live servers.
We had Clockwork (now the famous Android dev) programming our RDX on the fly and live updating each of our clients with new timings/instructions. We also spent like 2 hours practicing rotations before 4HM. Not actually doing the 4HM fight, just practicing running around in the room before it and making sure people were rotating. >.>
Although we did cheat off Nihilum's KT video to learn it a lot faster.
When we were doing Patchwerk one of our shadowpriests coded some mods for us that literally calculated incoming spike damage from hateful strikes, and evenly distributed the heals amongst all our healers so that there was very minimal overhealing (the mod synced in real time with other healers using the mod). It ranked up/down based upon missing HP, all off 1 button (some of our healers just mashed spacebar the entire fight).
We had a similar mod for shackling on Kel'thuzad.
On June 14 2013 00:42 Jibba wrote: WSG was fun but much too turtle-y against evenly matched teams, plus gear played such a huge role. We used to run group WSG's in our Sapph gear just to piss off all the frost mages. Our MT was essentially unkillable by anyone in HWL gear.
I thought AB was the most balanced of any of the PvP options and I think it would've been Blizzard's best opportunity to make an ESPORT out of WoW.
I loved WSG the most. AB was actually very imbalanced for Horde, and still is. Until they fix the Farm/Smith/Lumbermill locations horde should always win that map easily.
I remember double trinket TOEP + ZHC or whatever with berserking on AP/Pyro mages or Destro SB->Seduce->SB combos was insane.
Best Vanilla server Ive seen in quite a while. Good economy, always more than 1500 players online, stabile economy!
I just fell in love. PM if you want to create something in game!
Ive been on ED for about two weeks now, leveling with a friend. Its my first experience on a private server but Ive had a blast so far. Barrens chat is very active and there is always an infernal at xroads (lol)
I just hit 25 on my priest, and if anyone on horde needs priest heals, hit me up.
Hey,
Whats your ingame tag? Would be fun to have some people to chat around with . Going to start playing quite a bit as soon as my final exam are done this week!
Come join us! As stated earlier, the server is pretty damn awesome!
My char is Ipa.
Im usually on everyday. Anyone feel free to add me.
On June 22 2013 15:30 Jibba wrote: Reroll on a PvP server.
I don't even wanna think about the grind that was needed to lvl 1-60. I remember I had the entire 1-60 horde lvling guide printed out and on my desk just to lvl people fastest way possible. It was by that troll hunter but I don't remember the name gdi. It was like a tiny novel on my desk with the amounts of pages that was needed...
Joana's/Mancow's Horde Leveling guide!
Yes Joana! I couldn't think of anything other than Janna and I knew that was wrong.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
Someone hasn't played 5s 2400+, where half the games someone dies in the first 20 seconds of the fight.
Although 2v2 has become really ridiculous, it's spend 15 minutes not being able to out damage/cc the healing until one team gets bored and makes a massive mistake.
I really miss the old 2v2 days where resilience wasn't as stupid.
I remember 2345 well, but I don't really count that because you can instakill anyone with enough players. I'm talking about a mage/hunter safely dropping someone in a second, which unfairly allowed you to take on 1v2s against good players.
AP/Pyro was pretty terrible. Not at all worth giving up Firepower and Blastwave. Plus the damage increase of pyro over fireball wasn't worth 6 talent points over Impact, since Fire was about speed in PvP and you really didn't have many opportunities to use fireball outside of the sheep or PoM - it was mostly scorch and fireblast. AV is the one exception, but that was more target practice for hunters/mages than actual PvP, since it was so unfair for everyone else to take 3k crits blindly through a stupid mountain.
The only real worthwhile AP build imo was AP/Shatter because you were getting 2k+ frostbolts with like 70% crit but even then it was just for taking on 1 or 2 people and not particularly resilient without Iceblock (although it was actually fantastic for Ragnaros.) 30/21 PoM builds were really the way to go for PvP.
If you want true pvp you should just play on www.arena-tournament.com. Most good PvP Players and Gladiators play there... they have quite a big Prizepool every Season including Tournaments for WOTLK / BC and I think even Cataclysm now.
You start on max level, in the second best pvp gear. You can get the very best PvP gear in 1-2 days of BGs and then you get Arenapoints daily.
If anyone is interested in playing there you can PM me. I used to be Rank 1 on the WotLK server in every bracket as Deathknight.
On June 24 2013 22:42 Crownlol wrote: 60 PvP was atrocious lol, what are you guys talking about? Warrs were unstoppable, and my 2h Enh with Draconic Maul was able to kill pretty much any caster in one windfury proc.
So many rose-colored glasses in this thread. I'd maybe play TBC or WotLK again though.
Yes warrs were crazy, but that's only because nobody even knew what kiting meant, and those that did sucked at it. It was really a different time when nobody knew how to play.
If you were good enough with a mage you could kill any warrior no matter the gear difference as long as you had enough pots for mana lol.
I enjoyed my Druid A LOT during vanilla because being specced as a healer and still having the gear to tank as a bear was nice ... but you had to work for it and only very dedicated people actually made the effort.
I enjoyed my Druid in raids, because it was actually a challenge and beating the Clerics with the healing done while dumping all Innervates on Mages was awesome.
I enjoyed 40 man raids because there are more things to do ... and to go wrong where you could go "superman mode" and still beat it. The first encounter in Blackwing Lair had us almost wiping and a few combat rezzes and smart play turned the tide. Such "close calls" get that adrenaline flowing and make the game more interesting than the ez-mode and well rehearsed raids of todays dungeons.
I enjoyed the wild and open "Tarren Mill vs. Southshore" PvP battles, because people did it for the fun of it and not to gather X amounts of points to get a raid-equivalent item.
I enjoyed that you had to make an effort to do things instead of just joining a dungeon-/raid-finder queue and then going on into the dungeon with people you dont know and wont meet again ... ever.
I enjoyed long dungeons - like Blackrock Depths or Spire - which people didnt like, but which could be sneaked through by the skillful for some farming.
I enjoyed the mysteries of new stuff, because I hadnt seen them before.
I enjoyed distinct classes where only some classes had certain skills (like Innervate or cures) instead of giving them to most classes because of "PvP class balance" and to make required classes less of an issue.
I enjoyed dealing 20k extra damage from one Dragonbreath Chili (Bear form, multiple targets and a lot of swipe with the endless rage).
---
The above is NOT viewed through rose tinted glasses, I just like a game where you have to make an effort.
---
EDIT: My old Everquest guild had a motto: "Doing more with less" and we were pretty good at raiding with fewer people than other guilds needed. That philosophy was really based upon skillful players who made an effort to be prepared and creative and it was still pretty useful during the vanilla days BECAUSE - we only had limited curers for X in the raid - we only had limited tanks available and filling a "simple tank spot" (one where no resists are needed and pure armor / hp is sufficient) with a bear with good armor equipment who could heal in other encounters was great ... same for being able to sneak and raid-ress in Molten Core for example to save time
In short vanilla was awesome because you HAD TO be creative due to sometimes limited resources and capabilities compared to now where every caster has his own mana regen ability and Innervate is available to every Druid too. It was more challenging and thus more fun, because you didnt have 20.000 ways to farm end gear outside of raids.
In short vanilla was awesome because you HAD TO be creative due to sometimes limited resources and capabilities compared to now where every caster has his own mana regen ability and Innervate is available to every Druid too. It was more challenging and thus more fun, because you didnt have 20.000 ways to farm end gear outside of raids.
The most awe inspiring thing that I saw come out of Vanilla was when 40 priest took down Onyxia where so many others failed. It was with the best gear possible towards the end of Vanilla and a carefully calculated strategy but it was so cool. It made me want to make a priest. + Show Spoiler +
Yea, but most of the times Onyxia was looking like that: (start from 2:30 if you don't have time to watch full)
Don't get me wrong, I miss those times;) I was priest back then, there was no room for error and you landed OOM soon after start of the fight. If you knew "stuff", you could go OOM in the middle of encounter, rest of the time you had to be creative to actually be usefull.
I remember doing onyxia six man. My wand almost broke up (i played horde, so no salvation). Definitly a great fun and tense moment.
On June 26 2013 20:00 Jibba wrote:
The only real worthwhile AP build imo was AP/Shatter because you were getting 2k+ frostbolts with like 70% crit but even then it was just for taking on 1 or 2 people and not particularly resilient without Iceblock (although it was actually fantastic for Ragnaros.) 30/21 PoM builds were really the way to go for PvP.
For PvP, either pure frost or elementalist was the best build. If your party had one or two locks and you were doing WSG, there absolutely not a single reason have one lock with DM plus soul link to make AP POM pyro trains cry.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
Someone hasn't played 5s 2400+, where half the games someone dies in the first 20 seconds of the fight.
Although 2v2 has become really ridiculous, it's spend 15 minutes not being able to out damage/cc the healing until one team gets bored and makes a massive mistake.
I really miss the old 2v2 days where resilience wasn't as stupid.
you mean when random procs and illidan/sunwell gear decided the outcome arena? (sword,mace procs,wf etc etc)
lets be realistic here. wow arena always was a huge clusterfuck.
On June 08 2013 23:31 Jibba wrote: I think PvP was actually less about zerging. It was much more possible to win 1v2/3 fights than it is today.
Yeah because people were horribad. I was also one of those doing open pvp, taking out several people alone while they were going to their raids, farming in silithus or whatever. I thought I was one of best PvPers around until arenas came about and I found out that I was actually quite bad. :D
Well, and crowd control was much stronger and there was true burst damage. Burst damage doesn't really exist anymore, unless it's from a team.
Someone hasn't played 5s 2400+, where half the games someone dies in the first 20 seconds of the fight.
Although 2v2 has become really ridiculous, it's spend 15 minutes not being able to out damage/cc the healing until one team gets bored and makes a massive mistake.
I really miss the old 2v2 days where resilience wasn't as stupid.
you mean when random procs and illidan/sunwell gear decided the outcome arena? (sword,mace procs,wf etc etc)
lets be realistic here. wow arena always was a huge clusterfuck.
RNG and PvE gear is the one huge downside of TBC arenas. It's really annoying at times.
I had a lot of fun glitching the bg's and raids back in the day. Is wall jumping/scaling in the game? Or are the walls all smooth like the WOTLK build?
On July 04 2013 03:37 DnameIN wrote: Don't get me wrong, I miss those times;) I was priest back then, there was no room for error and you landed OOM soon after start of the fight. If you knew "stuff", you could go OOM in the middle of encounter, rest of the time you had to be creative to actually be usefull.
The thing is that you dont get excited when there is no danger or when you are not "living on the edge" ... and having the risk of going OOM and having to be smart enough to manage it was part of the charm. With better gear it eventually became too easy and thus boring. That is one of the charms of vanilla and the teamwork of donating an Innervate to another caster in need was what made it cool. Eventually they "generalized" classes and made them self-sufficient and "inter-exchangeable" and that was terrible for the style of the game.
Another thing which annoyed me about the whole concept of WoW expansions is the jumps in the gear. You got to level 60, raided a lot with your friends and got purples, but once you hit 61 in the next expansion EVERYTHING became totally worthless because the random greens were twice as good as raid purples. Kinda made raiding pointless except for the experience of seeing it. Maybe they should have used a different concept of "upgrade tokens" for raid loot so you kinda have to start somewhere and then add a spoonful of plusses where you need / want. The same "gear stat explosion" happened in other games as well, because I stopped playing Everquest with about 1500 hp, but a few years later the same type of caster would have 10k+ hp easily. In EQ I had totally nonmagical but cuddly soft lion skin boots until level 53 or so and wasnt too shabby as an enchanter ... The Gear progression curve somewhat ruins these games because people dont see the consequence of "more more more" and the developers think they make their customers happy by giving them A LOT more more more next time around ... a sad trend I see for Starcraft 2 as well.
On July 04 2013 03:37 DnameIN wrote: Don't get me wrong, I miss those times;) I was priest back then, there was no room for error and you landed OOM soon after start of the fight. If you knew "stuff", you could go OOM in the middle of encounter, rest of the time you had to be creative to actually be usefull.
The thing is that you dont get excited when there is no danger or when you are not "living on the edge" ... and having the risk of going OOM and having to be smart enough to manage it was part of the charm. With better gear it eventually became too easy and thus boring. That is one of the charms of vanilla and the teamwork of donating an Innervate to another caster in need was what made it cool. Eventually they "generalized" classes and made them self-sufficient and "inter-exchangeable" and that was terrible for the style of the game.
Another thing which annoyed me about the whole concept of WoW expansions is the jumps in the gear. You got to level 60, raided a lot with your friends and got purples, but once you hit 61 in the next expansion EVERYTHING became totally worthless because the random greens were twice as good as raid purples. Kinda made raiding pointless except for the experience of seeing it. Maybe they should have used a different concept of "upgrade tokens" for raid loot so you kinda have to start somewhere and then add a spoonful of plusses where you need / want. The same "gear stat explosion" happened in other games as well, because I stopped playing Everquest with about 1500 hp, but a few years later the same type of caster would have 10k+ hp easily. In EQ I had totally nonmagical but cuddly soft lion skin boots until level 53 or so and wasnt too shabby as an enchanter ... The Gear progression curve somewhat ruins these games because people dont see the consequence of "more more more" and the developers think they make their customers happy by giving them A LOT more more more next time around ... a sad trend I see for Starcraft 2 as well.
If they didn't make the previous' expansion's gear obsolete when a new one came out, you would have to go through all of the old raids just to get the new expansion's content. That's like, probably close to 30 raids now? I don't think that would be fun.
On July 04 2013 03:37 DnameIN wrote: Don't get me wrong, I miss those times;) I was priest back then, there was no room for error and you landed OOM soon after start of the fight. If you knew "stuff", you could go OOM in the middle of encounter, rest of the time you had to be creative to actually be usefull.
The thing is that you dont get excited when there is no danger or when you are not "living on the edge" ... and having the risk of going OOM and having to be smart enough to manage it was part of the charm. With better gear it eventually became too easy and thus boring. That is one of the charms of vanilla and the teamwork of donating an Innervate to another caster in need was what made it cool. Eventually they "generalized" classes and made them self-sufficient and "inter-exchangeable" and that was terrible for the style of the game.
Another thing which annoyed me about the whole concept of WoW expansions is the jumps in the gear. You got to level 60, raided a lot with your friends and got purples, but once you hit 61 in the next expansion EVERYTHING became totally worthless because the random greens were twice as good as raid purples. Kinda made raiding pointless except for the experience of seeing it. Maybe they should have used a different concept of "upgrade tokens" for raid loot so you kinda have to start somewhere and then add a spoonful of plusses where you need / want. The same "gear stat explosion" happened in other games as well, because I stopped playing Everquest with about 1500 hp, but a few years later the same type of caster would have 10k+ hp easily. In EQ I had totally nonmagical but cuddly soft lion skin boots until level 53 or so and wasnt too shabby as an enchanter ... The Gear progression curve somewhat ruins these games because people dont see the consequence of "more more more" and the developers think they make their customers happy by giving them A LOT more more more next time around ... a sad trend I see for Starcraft 2 as well.
If they didn't make the previous' expansion's gear obsolete when a new one came out, you would have to go through all of the old raids just to get the new expansion's content. That's like, probably close to 30 raids now? I don't think that would be fun.
Not really ... if they made the expansion content - the regular "kill 10 Orcs" junk - just a little bit tougher. They didnt do that and introduced a "jump" and a progressively steeper increase of numbers (i.e. damage dealt, healing, armor, hit points, ...) which required that the NPCs follow a similar progression. That is a terrible concept. As long as the leveling is not terribly boring there is no problem with players being a little bit undergeared if they didnt do all the raids.
Oh and one question: What is so terrible about content being HARD to go through?
A challenge is always good, but todays kids want to rush towards the end game and forget to enjoy the leveling (because WoW trained them to behave like that). Kids just want to get to the end and have the biggest d... around which they can then show off and brag about. That is why PvP is so popular, but WoW has a "category" called MMORPG and nowhere is there a "P" in it for the "PvP part, but there is an "RP" in it for "roleplaying" ... which mean "having fun with friends".
Btw ... you have to start raiding with regular gear, so a slow progression of gear would work easily and there is only one reason for the jump: they are catering to the powerlevling, lazy and whining kiddies who want to rush to the end instead of enjoying the way they get there as well. Generally you have enough time between the release of an expansion and the next for most of the population of a server to get at least some higher level dungeon or raid gear. That should be enough for a slow progression and green gear in "the next expansion" usually is MUCH better than raid gear ... which is bad.
if you want a populated vanilla realm(1x rates/blizzlike) with gradual content release try this one: https://www.emeralddream.com/
last content release was BWL, so it's still pretty early and a good time to get in. like on all private realms you will find none without bugs but on this one i really had the best feeling, everything is 99% classic.
edit: for those who are interested in a blizzlike(for the most part) with gradual content release TBC server: https://www.worldofcorecraft.com/
this one is still in development but it's already pretty known across the scene and it will probably be pretty populated once it is released. a very promising project so far, the devs seem to know what they are doing. planning to give this one a shot too, interesting for those who want to be a part of a project from the very start on.
On July 04 2013 03:37 DnameIN wrote: Don't get me wrong, I miss those times;) I was priest back then, there was no room for error and you landed OOM soon after start of the fight. If you knew "stuff", you could go OOM in the middle of encounter, rest of the time you had to be creative to actually be usefull.
The thing is that you dont get excited when there is no danger or when you are not "living on the edge" ... and having the risk of going OOM and having to be smart enough to manage it was part of the charm. With better gear it eventually became too easy and thus boring. That is one of the charms of vanilla and the teamwork of donating an Innervate to another caster in need was what made it cool. Eventually they "generalized" classes and made them self-sufficient and "inter-exchangeable" and that was terrible for the style of the game.
Another thing which annoyed me about the whole concept of WoW expansions is the jumps in the gear. You got to level 60, raided a lot with your friends and got purples, but once you hit 61 in the next expansion EVERYTHING became totally worthless because the random greens were twice as good as raid purples. Kinda made raiding pointless except for the experience of seeing it. Maybe they should have used a different concept of "upgrade tokens" for raid loot so you kinda have to start somewhere and then add a spoonful of plusses where you need / want. The same "gear stat explosion" happened in other games as well, because I stopped playing Everquest with about 1500 hp, but a few years later the same type of caster would have 10k+ hp easily. In EQ I had totally nonmagical but cuddly soft lion skin boots until level 53 or so and wasnt too shabby as an enchanter ... The Gear progression curve somewhat ruins these games because people dont see the consequence of "more more more" and the developers think they make their customers happy by giving them A LOT more more more next time around ... a sad trend I see for Starcraft 2 as well.
If they didn't make the previous' expansion's gear obsolete when a new one came out, you would have to go through all of the old raids just to get the new expansion's content. That's like, probably close to 30 raids now? I don't think that would be fun.
Not really ... if they made the expansion content - the regular "kill 10 Orcs" junk - just a little bit tougher. They didnt do that and introduced a "jump" and a progressively steeper increase of numbers (i.e. damage dealt, healing, armor, hit points, ...) which required that the NPCs follow a similar progression. That is a terrible concept. As long as the leveling is not terribly boring there is no problem with players being a little bit undergeared if they didnt do all the raids.
Oh and one question: What is so terrible about content being HARD to go through?
A challenge is always good, but todays kids want to rush towards the end game and forget to enjoy the leveling (because WoW trained them to behave like that). Kids just want to get to the end and have the biggest d... around which they can then show off and brag about. That is why PvP is so popular, but WoW has a "category" called MMORPG and nowhere is there a "P" in it for the "PvP part, but there is an "RP" in it for "roleplaying" ... which mean "having fun with friends".
Btw ... you have to start raiding with regular gear, so a slow progression of gear would work easily and there is only one reason for the jump: they are catering to the powerlevling, lazy and whining kiddies who want to rush to the end instead of enjoying the way they get there as well. Generally you have enough time between the release of an expansion and the next for most of the population of a server to get at least some higher level dungeon or raid gear. That should be enough for a slow progression and green gear in "the next expansion" usually is MUCH better than raid gear ... which is bad.
If you make the green gear you get in an expansion just a slight step above the green gear you get in the previous one, then any expansion content would be trivialized by the purples. For instance, Karazhan, Magtheridon and Gruul would have to be doable with expansion gear AND Ahn'qiraj/Naxxramas gear. So at some point that gear has to be a similar level. They also want to encourage you to actually run expansion dungeons, rather than just run your raid straight into Serpentshrine Caven using Naxxramas gear.
Every expansion should be seen as a new game, where the playing field is somewhat reset and everybody is equal again for a little while. You're not crying that your sweet Scarlet Monastery gear is made obsolete along the way, so why is it bad that raid gear is made obsolete?
I think you are under-rating how good naxx gear was. Apart from having much lower stamina than TBC gear, it held it's own throughout the levelling process and into level 70 dungeons. I remember many people who still had more than half of their slots filled with naxx items until they replaced them with Kara items.
On July 08 2013 02:05 hzflank wrote: I think you are under-rating how good naxx gear was. Apart from having much lower stamina than TBC gear, it held it's own throughout the levelling process and into level 70 dungeons. I remember many people who still had more than half of their slots filled with naxx items until they replaced them with Kara items.
That too. I didn't even get past BWL and I hadn't replaced things like OH and trinket (if I recall correctly, could have been other pieces, but I know there were one or two pieces that were very hard to replace) before entering Kara (most of the rest I got from heroic dungeons).
Of course, some pieces got replaced by a random green drop or a pretty blue quest item, but it was quite okay.
On July 04 2013 03:37 DnameIN wrote: Don't get me wrong, I miss those times;) I was priest back then, there was no room for error and you landed OOM soon after start of the fight. If you knew "stuff", you could go OOM in the middle of encounter, rest of the time you had to be creative to actually be usefull.
The thing is that you dont get excited when there is no danger or when you are not "living on the edge" ... and having the risk of going OOM and having to be smart enough to manage it was part of the charm. With better gear it eventually became too easy and thus boring. That is one of the charms of vanilla and the teamwork of donating an Innervate to another caster in need was what made it cool. Eventually they "generalized" classes and made them self-sufficient and "inter-exchangeable" and that was terrible for the style of the game.
Another thing which annoyed me about the whole concept of WoW expansions is the jumps in the gear. You got to level 60, raided a lot with your friends and got purples, but once you hit 61 in the next expansion EVERYTHING became totally worthless because the random greens were twice as good as raid purples. Kinda made raiding pointless except for the experience of seeing it. Maybe they should have used a different concept of "upgrade tokens" for raid loot so you kinda have to start somewhere and then add a spoonful of plusses where you need / want. The same "gear stat explosion" happened in other games as well, because I stopped playing Everquest with about 1500 hp, but a few years later the same type of caster would have 10k+ hp easily. In EQ I had totally nonmagical but cuddly soft lion skin boots until level 53 or so and wasnt too shabby as an enchanter ... The Gear progression curve somewhat ruins these games because people dont see the consequence of "more more more" and the developers think they make their customers happy by giving them A LOT more more more next time around ... a sad trend I see for Starcraft 2 as well.
As far as i remember MC gear was good until 62/63, BWL gear 66/67, Naxx all the way until 70. That's generalizing it a little but itemization+set bonuses beat out the puny greens often times. I never played at the beginning of other expansions so i can't confirm but my cata gear from FL lasted 2 levels (only a 5 level expansion and FL wasn't highest tier) which seemed about right...it was non heroic gear, im pretty sure heroic gear lasted til lvl 88 comfortably.
On July 04 2013 03:37 DnameIN wrote: Don't get me wrong, I miss those times;) I was priest back then, there was no room for error and you landed OOM soon after start of the fight. If you knew "stuff", you could go OOM in the middle of encounter, rest of the time you had to be creative to actually be usefull.
The thing is that you dont get excited when there is no danger or when you are not "living on the edge" ... and having the risk of going OOM and having to be smart enough to manage it was part of the charm. With better gear it eventually became too easy and thus boring. That is one of the charms of vanilla and the teamwork of donating an Innervate to another caster in need was what made it cool. Eventually they "generalized" classes and made them self-sufficient and "inter-exchangeable" and that was terrible for the style of the game.
Another thing which annoyed me about the whole concept of WoW expansions is the jumps in the gear. You got to level 60, raided a lot with your friends and got purples, but once you hit 61 in the next expansion EVERYTHING became totally worthless because the random greens were twice as good as raid purples. Kinda made raiding pointless except for the experience of seeing it. Maybe they should have used a different concept of "upgrade tokens" for raid loot so you kinda have to start somewhere and then add a spoonful of plusses where you need / want. The same "gear stat explosion" happened in other games as well, because I stopped playing Everquest with about 1500 hp, but a few years later the same type of caster would have 10k+ hp easily. In EQ I had totally nonmagical but cuddly soft lion skin boots until level 53 or so and wasnt too shabby as an enchanter ... The Gear progression curve somewhat ruins these games because people dont see the consequence of "more more more" and the developers think they make their customers happy by giving them A LOT more more more next time around ... a sad trend I see for Starcraft 2 as well.
If they didn't make the previous' expansion's gear obsolete when a new one came out, you would have to go through all of the old raids just to get the new expansion's content. That's like, probably close to 30 raids now? I don't think that would be fun.
Not really ... if they made the expansion content - the regular "kill 10 Orcs" junk - just a little bit tougher. They didnt do that and introduced a "jump" and a progressively steeper increase of numbers (i.e. damage dealt, healing, armor, hit points, ...) which required that the NPCs follow a similar progression. That is a terrible concept. As long as the leveling is not terribly boring there is no problem with players being a little bit undergeared if they didnt do all the raids.
Oh and one question: What is so terrible about content being HARD to go through?
A challenge is always good, but todays kids want to rush towards the end game and forget to enjoy the leveling (because WoW trained them to behave like that). Kids just want to get to the end and have the biggest d... around which they can then show off and brag about. That is why PvP is so popular, but WoW has a "category" called MMORPG and nowhere is there a "P" in it for the "PvP part, but there is an "RP" in it for "roleplaying" ... which mean "having fun with friends".
Btw ... you have to start raiding with regular gear, so a slow progression of gear would work easily and there is only one reason for the jump: they are catering to the powerlevling, lazy and whining kiddies who want to rush to the end instead of enjoying the way they get there as well. Generally you have enough time between the release of an expansion and the next for most of the population of a server to get at least some higher level dungeon or raid gear. That should be enough for a slow progression and green gear in "the next expansion" usually is MUCH better than raid gear ... which is bad.
And how exactly does this kill the fun part for you? Why do you care that green items are better than purple when you're having fun with friends? Is it the kids who just want to have the biggest d because their greens are better or is it people like you who want to have the biggest d because they raided in the previous content and want their purples to be the best for as long as possible to show off more? Leveling is just such a short timeframe compared to endgame content, i dont understand how anyone can possibly say it is of any importance in the greater picture and how it killed the fun. Also people are constantly leveling new chars. How retarded would it be if you had to raid at lvl 60, then at lvl 70, then at lvl 80 just to be able to progress further because the green leveling gear was complete garbage? Hell, in mop they even put vendors who sell a full set of green stuff with the proper ilvl for the zone whenever you advance to a new area.
So, thanks to this topic, I couldn't resist, and, for a first time tried WoW on private serwer. Since WotLK I was missing vanillia times, so Emerald Dream serwer with 1x ratio was looking perfectly.
Looks like my old addiction is coming back I guess;P Before launching the client I had no idea how much fun I will have playing WoW again. Seriously, I was expecting to play few hours, realise that old times will never come back and dump the client deep into the recycled bin. But I didn't...
Instead, I was enjoyng hard gameplay. I mean, seriously, my mind was almost blown away seeing how easy WoW is now compared to vanilia. Another dangerous moment for my mind was in Deadmines, where I witnesed two mages using polymorph.
And server is full of life. To be honest, last time I was playing official WoW, I had bigger feeling of being alone in empty world. This is not issue here. Main chat is filled with players spamming old good LFG/LFM's for all instances. Can't wait to fight through them all again;) Damn it, Scholo, BRD, Strat... Tier 0 sets... My God, I am doomed;P
As for Emerald Dream server, there are not significant bugs. Actually, I have a feeling that real vanillia had more issues.
On July 16 2013 20:07 DnameIN wrote: So, thanks to this topic, I couldn't resist, and, for a first time tried WoW on private serwer. Since WotLK I was missing vanillia times, so Emerald Dream serwer with 1x ratio was looking perfectly.
Looks like my old addiction is coming back I guess;P Before launching the client I had no idea how much fun I will have playing WoW again. Seriously, I was expecting to play few hours, realise that old times will never come back and dump the client deep into the recycled bin. But I didn't...
Instead, I was enjoyng hard gameplay. I mean, seriously, my mind was almost blown away seeing how easy WoW is now compared to vanilia. Another dangerous moment for my mind was in Deadmines, where I witnesed two mages using polymorph.
And server is full of life. To be honest, last time I was playing official WoW, I had bigger feeling of being alone in empty world. This is not issue here. Main chat is filled with players spamming old good LFG/LFM's for all instances. Can't wait to fight through them all again;) Damn it, Scholo, BRD, Strat... Tier 0 sets... My God, I am doomed;P
As for Emerald Dream server, there are not significant bugs. Actually, I have a feeling that real vanillia had more issues.
Well there are more the more you play, a lot of the scripted quests can be broken if multiple people try to do them (looking at you Missing Diplomat) and there are a couple of very mats-efficient enchants that are absolutely broken (Agi to cloak I'm looking at you) and from what I hear, add behavior on some bosses is more retarded than usual, but that's about it.
I'm having fun on that server, up to lvl 36 priest (Svelte) on the alliance side.
Edit: Also, last I checked, AV was ridiculously broken Alliance side (alliance rams are accidently 65 instead of 55 and horde can't spawn ice lord). So that's their priority atm.
On July 16 2013 20:07 DnameIN wrote: So, thanks to this topic, I couldn't resist, and, for a first time tried WoW on private serwer. Since WotLK I was missing vanillia times, so Emerald Dream serwer with 1x ratio was looking perfectly.
Looks like my old addiction is coming back I guess;P Before launching the client I had no idea how much fun I will have playing WoW again. Seriously, I was expecting to play few hours, realise that old times will never come back and dump the client deep into the recycled bin. But I didn't...
Instead, I was enjoyng hard gameplay. I mean, seriously, my mind was almost blown away seeing how easy WoW is now compared to vanilia. Another dangerous moment for my mind was in Deadmines, where I witnesed two mages using polymorph.
And server is full of life. To be honest, last time I was playing official WoW, I had bigger feeling of being alone in empty world. This is not issue here. Main chat is filled with players spamming old good LFG/LFM's for all instances. Can't wait to fight through them all again;) Damn it, Scholo, BRD, Strat... Tier 0 sets... My God, I am doomed;P
As for Emerald Dream server, there are not significant bugs. Actually, I have a feeling that real vanillia had more issues.
Well there are more the more you play, a lot of the scripted quests can be broken if multiple people try to do them (looking at you Missing Diplomat) and there are a couple of very mats-efficient enchants that are absolutely broken (Agi to cloak I'm looking at you) and from what I hear, add behavior on some bosses is more retarded than usual, but that's about it.
I'm having fun on that server, up to lvl 36 priest (Svelte) on the alliance side.
Edit: Also, last I checked, AV was ridiculously broken Alliance side (alliance rams are accidently 65 instead of 55 and horde can't spawn ice lord). So that's their priority atm.
Av works perfectly fine now.my guild is almost ready to start raiding mc !! So excited ! :D
I just downloaded and installed the emerald dream client and am looking forward to some vanilla progression. If anyone is interested hit me up in-game on Babyfactory as Alliance
So ive been playing on Emerald dream (Ally, 27 priest, 33 hunter atm) and i must say im enjoying the server, not perfect but i expected far worse from peoples bitching, its very near-blizzlike, the only major bug ive found is BFD's door to the final boss is bugged. The rest is just my hunter pet glitching sometimes when i change stance during battle and pathing being a little weird.
I would definitely recommend this server from a gameplay viewpoint.
I wouldnt from a community one however, the, uh, vocal majority are moronic children who find using racist/homophobic etc words A-OK to use as insults, slurs at will and at random. Not in jokes (shit most actual jokes are funny), just randomly towards people whenever they feel like it. I voiced concerns about this and got called an oversensitive little bitch -censored- -censored- -censored-. I am actually appalled at the morons on this server and the lack of moderation. It really is the dregs of internet society here lol. They need to take a banhammer to alot of people's asses for this and clean it up because its just way out of hand. Just NEVER tell people you dont agree with it, shit the harrassment ive recieved for it is hillarious xD.
There are good people out there, but not consolidated into one place lol.
Hit me up if you play there - OmniShroud (27 priest) Capp (33 Hunter) Alliance
Really enjoying the Emerald Dream server. Just wish the population could grow a bit. Always fun with more players. The server is good from my point of view. A few glitches here and there but all through enjoyable for sure!
On June 08 2013 23:48 floor exercise wrote: I've played a bit on the Emerald Dream server, which is I believe the most popular blizz-like vanilla server. Got to mid 20s or so and did Dead Mines and all that. It was fun, a little bit buggy but overall a nice trip down memory lane.
There's a blizz-like TBC server coming up called Corecraft that I believe many people are excited for. I'm definitely going to check it out when they finally open up shop
lol im sorry if you are waiting for corecraft still. It will not be up for some time. CORECRAFT--2020
Check out TheRebirth imo - has amazing scripting and available content - website is down but anyone can contact one of the gms at http://www.reddit.com/r/rebirthwow/ for an account. And whether corecraft delivers their advertised quality upon release remains to be seen - even if they do, they're a TBC server, not vanilla.
On December 12 2013 04:42 CuteSmallHydra wrote: Check out TheRebirth imo - has amazing scripting and available content - website is down but anyone can contact one of the gms at http://www.reddit.com/r/rebirthwow/ for an account. And whether corecraft delivers their advertised quality upon release remains to be seen - even if they do, they're a TBC server, not vanilla.
Are there any good TBC servers besides Feenix? Raiding in vanilla just has me wanting to raid in BC
On June 08 2013 23:48 floor exercise wrote: I've played a bit on the Emerald Dream server, which is I believe the most popular blizz-like vanilla server. Got to mid 20s or so and did Dead Mines and all that. It was fun, a little bit buggy but overall a nice trip down memory lane.
There's a blizz-like TBC server coming up called Corecraft that I believe many people are excited for. I'm definitely going to check it out when they finally open up shop
lol im sorry if you are waiting for corecraft still. It will not be up for some time. CORECRAFT--2020
You know if you read into corecraft they state they dont give a shit about any non-tbc content, it will be completely broken at release, only outlands will function. They will add a "custom questline" to get players past all the broken content and into outlands.
I lol'd when i read that and completely gave up on the server. Such dedication. Much care.
I realise people will read this and think "but that content means nothing! its all about having a legit endgame!" true, but to completely neglect such a huge chunk of the game says alot and because of it i wont hold my breath for their claims of perfection.
currently playing on dispersions classic realm, has a few bugs here and there, not the biggest pop, but by far the best server, until kronos delivers their promise, so if you can't wait feel free to join in.
I keep hearing about Kronos, what is it about I cant get any information? (beside the youtube page) I am playing on Valkyrie and the server seems really stable and a good bunch of people.
On October 24 2014 06:35 Kenthros wrote: I keep hearing about Kronos, what is it about I cant get any information? (beside the youtube page) I am playing on Valkyrie and the server seems really stable and a good bunch of people.
It´s pretty much a new Vanilla sever launching. They seem to be doing a really good job, the only thing will be the poplation pretty much. If they market it well and keep people going then it will be awesome .
Though I´ll keep on playing at ED and then move on to CoreCraft that will launch at new year. CoreCraft will be so bloody good I can´t wait. Been in the works over 2 years with scripting outlands. MMmhmm
On October 24 2014 06:35 Kenthros wrote: I keep hearing about Kronos, what is it about I cant get any information? (beside the youtube page) I am playing on Valkyrie and the server seems really stable and a good bunch of people.
If you have any questions about Kronos, ask me, I have a test account.
The server still looks really good, it's kind of unreal how much better it is going to be than comparable servers.
hey in few months Kronos wow classic server will launch from scratch, its supposed to be best most polished wow classic server to date, Im planning to give it a shot with few buddies, im probing interest if any oldschool players will be looking to play aswell, most of us are ex semi pro pvpers with high level pve experience
http://classicwarcraft.com/. Just throwing it out there. This is the only server I've seen that actually had proper movement (like non-jaggedy standard mangos stuff). Not sure if they're actually gonna make it to release and everything though.
Also: a cool thing is that when it's launched it will release content in original order. That means no ZG, Dire Maul etc.. at launch.
On December 10 2014 21:52 Meavis wrote: https://www.vengeancewow.com/ is a new full blizzlike server, worth checking out, seems great so far.
+1 i've been scratching my vanilla itch on this server the last month, it's pretty solid. scripting and overall gameplay seems very good, biggest flaw is its low population (less than 100 horde online even at peak times.)
yeah I think population and support is pretty important for good experience, would be cool to do mc/bwl/naxx again with a guild :D Kronos is supposed to have ~600-1000 players or even more
the hype behind Kronos is awesome, so as long as it gets released within our lifetime i can't wait to play on a 1x vanilla realm with huge population.
i'm really actually enjoying my casual leveling on vengeance-wow but unless the server gets a surge of players in the next few months its future isn't terribly bright.
Honestly, I've been having enough fun with live that I don't feel the need to go back to vanilla. Still have a 60 priest with a couple pieces of T1 on Emerald Dream, though. If that server is still running...
On December 19 2014 05:11 napalmion wrote: hey in few months Kronos wow classic server will launch from scratch, its supposed to be best most polished wow classic server to date, Im planning to give it a shot with few buddies, im probing interest if any oldschool players will be looking to play aswell, most of us are ex semi pro pvpers with high level pve experience
It will go into open beta on February 27th, 2015. Even though everything you do on beta will be wiped before launch, I think that it would still be good to try the server out at that time.
On December 19 2014 05:11 napalmion wrote: hey in few months Kronos wow classic server will launch from scratch, its supposed to be best most polished wow classic server to date, Im planning to give it a shot with few buddies, im probing interest if any oldschool players will be looking to play aswell, most of us are ex semi pro pvpers with high level pve experience
It will go into open beta on February 27th, 2015. Even though everything you do on beta will be wiped before launch, I think that it would still be good to try the server out at that time.
If it's populated enough i will be there. WoW Vanilla, best WoW.
I'm downloading the client as we speak. I think I'll be rolling Alliance simply because I like the leveling flow better and unless I'm mistaken, a vast majority of the U.S. players and high end guilds are Alliance.
damnit you guys, I've been clean from WoW for ~5 years and now you got me interested in Vanilla again. Trying out Nostralrius to see if finally someone has managed to make a decent Vanilla server.
I've watched some streams. It looks good. The only thing that sucks is that I haven't played Vanilla in so long that I don't remember how the classes and talents and shit work anymore lol
Well as I always enjoyed the leveling process much more than the actual endgame (raiding instances), this seems to be a moment I was waiting for without knowing it. I had tried out a german private server; it was quite decent, but overall, there were single-digit numbers of people in most zones far too often. Basically the whole alliance was leveling exclusively in the human areas. Scripting like escort quests was ok for a private server I guess. Finding people for some of the non-standard quest chains/instances was quite hard, and this was in fact one of my main reasons to come back to wow. Now if for the next days/weeks, this gets just a bit near to what the first weeks after the first release of wow were like, it would be like a dream come true. From what I've seen on nostalrius' twitter/Facebook, 5000 registered accounts and someone complaining about low spawns rates looks promising, but ofc it might be a publicity trick.
On March 02 2015 03:28 Ayaz2810 wrote: I've watched some streams. It looks good. The only thing that sucks is that I haven't played Vanilla in so long that I don't remember how the classes and talents and shit work anymore lol
C'mon, it's like riding a bicycle. I created an elementalist mage with the exact same talents i used to play on Kronos.
Mobs once engaged seemed to work a lot better than on Feenix tho, at least I didn't experience much rubberbanding, mobs glitching around in the air and that kind of stuff.
When it came to "splitting mobs", making a mutliple mob pull reset so you can deal with one at a time, I noticed multiple issues. That again was pretty Feenix like. Threat seemed to be a bit off as well.
For example, after adding a whole camp of Furbolgs in Teldrassil (without any reason actually, I simply tagged one and then suddenly all Furbolgs in a radius of like 20 meter came charging at me, stacking up inside each other, without spreading out at all) I simply ran away, waiting for them to reset, which they eventually did, however, to my surprise, they simple switched target. 2 other Players were walking by, none of them engaged the Furbolgs in any way whatsoever, they were a good 10-15m away from them when the Furbolgs suddenly decided to go ham on them. Wrecking them both without any possible aggro on their side. Odd.
Mob spawning is completely broken and it even appears to be much less than it would be by default.
That's why i asked how it's going and if any of this issues are real, i will try both surely, but i am patient enough. Kronos seems very fluid on pvp.
Just created a char, i don't know if it's because of the amount of people but i have a very minor rubberbanding. Will keep toying with graphics to see if it's definitly that. Can't say anything because the starting undead zone has like a bazillion people lol.
On March 02 2015 04:01 Godwrath wrote: Just created a char, i don't know if it's because of the amount of people but i have a very minor rubberbanding. Will keep toying with graphics to see if it's definitly that. Can't say anything because the starting undead zone has like a bazillion people lol.
Personally I've had no lag problems, but yeah Undead zone is brutal.
The population thins out drastically after level 30. Relatively few have the patience required to full level anymore given how tedious it was in retrospect and how easy it is now.
Alright Bxanesthetic and I are making a TL guild (Liquid) for Horde on the Nostarius PvP server. I got a Guild charter. PM me your in-game name and I'll add you. My in-game name is "Boite" if you want to add me. Only requirement is that you like to have fun. All nationalities welcome!
On March 02 2015 04:25 deth2munkies wrote: The population thins out drastically after level 30. Relatively few have the patience required to full level anymore given how tedious it was in retrospect and how easy it is now.
Or maybe just not many people nolifed for 18+ hours to get to level 30+ in 24 hours.
On March 02 2015 05:43 Ayaz2810 wrote: So am I to assume that TL will be predominantly horde? And how many US people do we have?
Irregardless of how many people we get, unless by some miracle we manage to get 40+ people from only TL we will have to recruit people from outside of TL if we want to do endgame raids.
In any case, we have started a guild and are trying to get a decent player base in order to do dungeons and stuff while we level up. If anyone is interested in joining PM BxAnesthetic or Boite (or anyone from the guild <Liquid> really).
You guys are horde? I'll delete my level 4 warrior and remake I guess. Raided MC and BWL in vanilla. Along with some ZG and AQ. Never made it to Naxx though. I'd like to do so while it's "current" heh.
EDIT: I really need to look up Vanilla talent guides and shit. It's amazing that you can play a game for 10 years and then realize you know nothing about it anymore.
Anyone playing on the beta vanilla mode server Kronos?. I just can't seem to find a thread on the forums or a link, direct download or anything related to downloading the game in question
Ok I really gotta do some advertising for Nostalrius Begins now. A few moments ago, it had >5000 players online (horde and alliance combined). From what I've experienced so far, it's looking really good (though I have yet to see and escort quest or a scripted event). At teh moment, it really feels like vanilla wow shortly after release.
I agree. I'm having a blast. I dunno how opening of AQ will work. I'm interested to find out because I missed it originally. I actually hated wow the first time I played it and quit at level 15 when it came out lol
happy to see this thread having activity after i bumped it a few days ago!
nostalrius is awesome so far, really liking the overall experience. i've seen the threads of compiled bugs/scripting issues but my personal experience has been nearly flawless. although who's to say as it has been 10 years since vanilla retail was fresh in our memories. i'm up to level 19 on horde side, playing my beloved UD mage.
is there a horde-side team liquid guild?? i'd love some chill leveling companions and later dungeon party members!
On March 05 2015 11:54 oscar62 wrote: is there a horde-side team liquid guild?? i'd love some chill leveling companions and later dungeon party members!
Yeah just read the thread, Seen the guy spamming in durotar about <Liquid> being hardcore end-game raiding guild lol. (Sorry i just find it an obnoxious recruitment message when youre recruiting randoms enmasse on a 3 day old server with no real commitment to what youre saying.)
Nos is pretty crowded, leveling areas are filled with dozens of players spawncamping quest mobs etc. so be prepared to wait. A LOT. or just find a quieter spot and grind mobs instead of quests during peak hours. I suppose it'll get better over time when players are more spread around the world.
3 evenings of playing and lvl 16 so far. Fucking WoW addiction is strong, I wonder when it will stop. :p
On March 05 2015 11:54 oscar62 wrote: is there a horde-side team liquid guild?? i'd love some chill leveling companions and later dungeon party members!
Yeah just read the thread, Seen the guy spamming in durotar about <Liquid> being hardcore end-game raiding guild lol. (Sorry i just find it an obnoxious recruitment message when youre recruiting randoms enmasse on a 3 day old server with no real commitment to what youre saying.)
Sorry, I'm trying to convey what I want the guild to become, I didn't expect people to take it THAT seriously (I don't mention hardcore, just endgame). Although as to the actual spamming it might've been one of the randoms who seems quite adamant about making this guild successful.
Also, In my personal opinion its not that bad of an idea to get a decent pool of people right now since it would help us a lot in finding groups for dungeons in order to gear up as well as people to fill up slots in case we get no-shows in future raids.
Having lots of fun on this server. Still dont know which one will be better for server choice this or kronos, but so far im enjoying myself. Made a shaman that i hope to heal with almost 17 hope to hit up wc tonight.
Yo! in 2 days on saturday Kronos has its official release, I played the beta and server looked awesome if the population is big Im thinking about playing there long term, if we get like 20people mby we can make a guild or something, anyway I will be leveling up a character at a slow pace for some nostalgia :D checking interest here and reminding because its probably the biggest opening in the vanila wow, including recent nostalrius opening
I will propably try Kronos, since WoD only makes me dissapointed. I have no idea how it will end since my play time is strongly limited lately... I guess it means less sleep;P
Good thing about Kronos is that their respawn time depend on the amount of people on that zone. So it won't get that long to finish off the early quests.
On March 26 2015 18:57 Godwrath wrote: Good thing about Kronos is that their respawn time depend on the amount of people on that zone. So it won't get that long to finish off the early quests.
Given the downtime between mobs in Vanilla is pretty high, I'd be worried about getting respawned on while playing certain classes. That can be even more frustrating than waiting for spawns and tapping them.
That actually made leveling interesting, instead of mindnumblingly boring. But that being said, mobs with high respawn rate are hardly a problem on vanilla until past lvl 10, where the playerbase is more scattered.
On March 27 2015 05:51 Godwrath wrote: That actually made leveling interesting, instead of mindnumblingly boring. But that being said, mobs with high respawn rate are hardly a problem on vanilla until past lvl 10, where the playerbase is more scattered.
I leveled a healing priest with smiting and self healing, that WAS mindnumbingly boring. TBH, Shamans and Paladins have the best leveling by far since they can both heal themselves and deal a good amount of damage. Prot past lvl 40 in particular.
Frost mage is the levelling master class if you know what you are doing (frostbite blizzard). If you are more clueless, either warlock or hunter are just flatout better.
And if you level a priest with smite is your own fault. You don't need to be holy specced to heal in the dungeons, and shadow is actually a pretty decent levelling spec. The only class that will have a very boring time leveling alone is a retardin, because well, on vanilla its gameplay was pretty bad.
On March 27 2015 06:43 Godwrath wrote: Frost mage is the levelling master class if you know what you are doing (frostbite blizzard). If you are more clueless, either warlock or hunter are just flatout better.
And if you level a priest with smite is your own fault. You don't need to be holy specced to heal in the dungeons, and shadow is actually a pretty decent levelling spec. The only class that will have a very boring time leveling alone is a retardin, because well, on vanilla its gameplay was pretty bad.
Well, it's once you reach ~50, you sit there in WPL Blizzard kiting the entire Felstone Field until you level up, but before that it's pretty slow. Hunter's also really good because pets heal a lot faster than you do and they do good damage. Warlocks slightly less so since they do less damage, but VWs are more tanky and have a heal (but you're playing a lot of extra gold for grimoires and stuff).
I never used voidwalker to be honest, outside the first 20 lvls. Just shadowbolt + immolate + CoA + Corruption, fear, go for next target (later on you can shadowburn as to finish it up). I was an EQ necromancer, so fear kiting is my prefered kind of play with locks. You could pull basically nonstop with succubus (pvp), with a affliction build. Later on you switch dark pact for the a standard SM/Ruin approach. That being said, being undead helps a lot, so you use bandage / cannibalize to get your health back if you want to pull almost nonstop, which i did because i mostly enjoyed grinding than doing quests.
I didn't play the hunter, but knowing their skills i am sure they are pretty good.
And yeah, mage is pretty slow before some levelling, but it's not that bad once you get shatter, and more importantly, it's pretty safe.
The class with bigger problems levelling for me actually was the rogue, specially the early levels, but that may be personal bias towards the class. I don't know about the warrior because i levelled him as arms with a resto shaman giving me windfury the whole way to 60 (once each 30 minutes pull a shitload of camps, retalation + WF + sweeping strikes .... BOOOM).
If you want a real challenge, try to solo W DM as a warlock. I was able to get all the way to Immol'thar by myself, I forget if I killed him. It was a pain, very difficult, and I died a few times, but I think it was the best feeling I've had in WoW when I did it.
On March 27 2015 07:18 HewTheTitan wrote: A questline also required me to poison a dog... I didn't respond well to that... (abandoned questline of course)
I started playing yesterday on kronos horde. The server works well, and the respawn allowed to get out of the bottlenecks way faster than in nostalrius. Also it seems to work better. Lag for NA from what i gathered is around 120-180ms depending on which coast you live in.
I consider myself as a vanilla private server expert.ive played on almost all of them. I've been playing on a server for a year now,called therebirth.it is a blizzlike 1x server which is hosted in EU now. I can safely say that this server is by far the best server among them all!!! First of all the scripting is top notch.you wont find a server with less bugs i guarantee that The low lvl area quests are working ás well. They have just did a major owerhaul of pathfinding.so basically no more charging or blinking thru the world. The server is hosted in Paris at the moment. The Ping for EU players is around 10-40 ms,for Us players it's around 80-100ms The community is really helpful and friendly. Available raids:Mc,onyxia,bwl,zg,kazzak,azuregos. Aq20/40 and emerald dragons patch is coming soon( few months) Www.therebirth.net come try it out if you want to relieve the old days without gamebreaking bugs and lag and all that shit. Cheers
It's so sad blizzard wants to whack nostalrius community when it's nice and cozy. Many nostalrius streamers got ban from twitch and people are hesitant to stream there now. :c
I play on Kronos and while the population is much smaller, I'm enjoying the quality scripting, responsive GMs, and stable ping. The tight knit community feel is cool too, I'm really getting to know everyone on the alliance side. Also it has some really sweet integrated web tools:
I never got seriously into it because this was kinda expected. But yeah I feel you, at first I thought it was just nostalgia telling me old wow was better but when you hit lvl 12-13 you could feel the old addiction creeping back.
Honestly, it was horrifyingly bad in retrospect. A lot of it was having to figure out everything on your own and finding new things that nobody knew about. Once you know everything that you're doing it takes a lot out of it and becomes extremely tedious. I leveled to 60 on Feenix and did a few MC raids but I just couldn't get fully back into it. Nostalgia kept me playing for a while but it burned out. I have a feeling 90% of the people that "want a vanilla server" will treat it exactly like me.
Private servers date back as far as 2005 (I know because I started on one). In one hand, it's completely understandable. Like if you get fined at 2 AM in a barren street when you cross the street during a red light on foot. Or when they bust 15 year olds posessing 0.5 gram of weed.
On the other hand, it's completely despicable and petty. Since the start of WoW, hundreds or even thousands of private servers existed, many with thousands of players. A lot of them were straight up P2W, as you got free epics when you bought credits and such. Some of them even hosted tournaments with thousands of $ prize money. Blizzard never cared, because in my opinion, they knew that their original product is better and bug free (it was, pretty much) and many people like me got bored with the bugs and went to the live servers and many people who did vice-versa got bored of the game and wouldn't pay the monthly payment anyway, so they played on private servers.
Now the question is given, why now, and why Nostalrius? Personally, I only played for like a few days at the server because I don't have much free time anymore, despite Vanilla being my favourite content in WoW, but I had a really fun time with many people running around in the world, always finding groups for instances and such. I can see how it launched with an already awesome 6k player base which doubled in a year (and by players, I mean online players at a time, not "active" plaíyers, which were much more than 10-15k).
Nostalrius was completely F2P with no buy-in option, as far as I know. It was 1x rate, meaning as close to retail servers as possible. 10-15k online players rivaled even the most popular retail WoW servers, but I think it's easily worth more than 2 High pop servers. Nostalrius players were not a potential playerbase at all, because Vanilla is long gone, and these players wanted to play Vanilla exclusively. I think most of these players WERE once active WoW subscribers but got bored of the game or didn't find the direction of the game satisfying or just wanted to relive their 10+ years old cherished Wow memories from Vanilla. There were and still are lots of naysaysers who say Vanilla is gone and the current Wow is better because it's not tedious as hell and it's just Nostalgia. The player numbers however prove otherwise.
I don't know the intentions behind Blizzard's actions, but I'd like to think that they got salty. They stopped reporting the number of active subscribers since their last report, but everyone can guess that it's still declining. I don't think the x thousand active players mattered much to Blizzard, since during the years, I think millions of players tried private servers. I'd really like to think that someone at Blizzard got jealous/angry when seeing these many thousand players having genuine fun while playing a game which Blizzard has long forgotten. That a private server, after 12 years got them so mad, that they needed a lawsuit to get it cancelled, while they haven't bothered with Molten or Arena tournament a few years ago when they had even more active players than Nostalrius. Because this justifies my decision to never give another cent to Blizzard, ever. And this has been going on for 9 years. Make no mistake, I still play and love their games. Warcraft 3, Diablo 2 and Brood War of course and I occasionally play some at Wrath or BC private servers, but their past-Activision merge portfolio? Not a chance.
OK, you guys seem clueless enough that I'm going to have to explain this in detail, so long post time:
tl;dr - Blizzard has to shut down these servers or it's bad for them legally, your nostalgia goggles are blinding you to how bad Vanilla is by today's standards, and Blizzard will never, ever make money on doing this because of high startup and maintenance costs.
1) To defend their IP, Blizzard has to take these servers down. If they don't, then eventually people can start asserting reliance defenses against them if they do eventually try to shut them down. It's basically the legal equivalent of, "Well you let THEM do it, so why can't I?" and that's an actual thing in law. This is a vast oversimplification, but suffice it to say that if Blizzard doesn't take action, it's very bad for them under copyright law. "But aren't there a lot of other private servers Blizzard knows about?" Sure, but they don't have all the information they need to mount an airtight case against them, it actually requires a ton of research, time, and money to establish a case even for something that seems as obvious as running a private server. They can't possibly shut them all down, so they have to choose their targets carefully as to not overextend. That won't weigh against them in court the way simply ignoring them altogether or tacitly acknowledging their legitimacy will.
2) Building an official Vanilla/BC/Wrath/Cata server would take millions and millions of dollars to start and upkeep. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand how game coding works, but even I know enough to know that Blizzard has drastically changed not only their in-game files, but the server architecture running WoW and all their other games. That means in order to make a server on a previous expansion, they'd have to completely re-do everything about how those games connect to the Blizzard servers in addition to acquiring new servers to host them on, relocalizing everything (WoW wasn't in anywhere near as many countries then as it is now), and establishing a support network to monitor customer support, constantly update, and fix bugs. All of that is on top of doing exactly what the private server guys have been doing and reverse-engineering the files, because it's likely they don't have all the Vanilla files archived anywhere because that's typically not what game companies do. The upkeep of hiring additional staff specifically to deal with those servers alone makes it not worth it for them, as it's different enough as to be basically a different game from WoW now, so you'd need an entirely dedicated staff for each expansion's servers.
Even if they charged standard sub rates, these servers would be money-losers. Combine that with the fact that WoW subs as a whole are on the decline and there's really no reason for them to throw this much risk into a title that's starting to wane after 11 years.
3) Everything you loved about Vanilla is gone and never coming back. The reason why Vanilla WoW was so good at the time was that it took the best parts of existing MMOs like Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies, threw them into a world that we loved (Warcraft), and made it a unique experience by having questing drive the story and progression. Going back to it now is just going back to a worse version of a game that we've been playing for 11 years. All the luster is gone, the newness has been outdone by countless titles since and WoW itself. All of the systems of questing, class balance, raid difficulty, etc, are all inferior to pretty much every other game on the market today and even WoW itself. The best things about Vanilla WoW were exploring the world, finding new stuff for the first time, and doing cool lore related things with characters that you'd seen in other games. Now, the world has been explored to death, there's nothing left to find with WoWhead and countless other online tools, and we've gotten so used to lore characters that we barely flinch when they show up. Going back in time and playing the game as it was doesn't fix any of that.
It may be nostalgic for a while, but when you hit max level and start to remember how painful it used to be just to grind enough to be useful in raids and how simplistic and conceptually easy the bosses were back then, you'll quit pretty quickly. And you won't be alone, while those servers have a pretty consistently high population, there's massive turnover. People are coming in and out all the time, and the vast majority don't hit max level unless there's some mechanism in the server to boost XP or buy 60s. That ties back into the fact that Blizzard won't be able to make money on these servers, because you have to cut that big number down to the number of people who'd actually pay for it (since it's F2P), then cut it again by those that will stay month after month to cover the maintenance costs.
Other business fields must be salty about how strongly the modern gaming community comes to the defence of shitty games.
Stop telling people what the want/don't want, because chances are the people who have been playing nostalrius for months probably know just how much they enjoy vanilla, and don't need someone writing paragraphs of shit about nostalgia.
2) Building an official Vanilla/BC/Wrath/Cata server would take millions and millions of dollars to start and upkeep. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand how game coding works
these two sentences in consecutive order are funny.
Just by the way, subs are on the decline because the game is complete shit.
This was a horrible decision, and if a group of 20 or so people can put together a private server with a stable population probably larger then most high pop current servers, then I'd be willing to put money that blizzard could re-discover some old files.
Vanilla was fun because we didn't know wtf we were doing. Now we would know everything we're doing. The consumable grind back then was several leagues harsher than now, let's remember that vanilla didn't really limit you in consumables used in combat aside from their cooldowns and if memory doesn't completely fail me, you could run a flask + elixirs at the same time on top of using potions on cooldown and things like whipper root tubers (have fun farming THOSE, ha!). Elixirs would fade on death.
Most trash fights we have now are more interesting than most boss fights in tier1 and 2. Lot of the difficulty came with tackling the shitty raid UI, imagine modern raid tools ported to vanilla content. Yea, it would be no challenge at all. And someone would do it, there'd be a WeakAuras vanilla version and someone would make a bossmod support as well and there you go, that one or 2 abilities the bosses had back then on a huge timer wouldn't hold a candle to first trash pull in HFC at this time.
Oh and 40 man raid size, yuck. Good luck keeping up with recruiting to keep raiding with that. Not to mention there was 0 catch up mechanics. If you were raiding tier 2 or 2.5 and had to recruit someone, you needed to recruit someone with existing gear.
On April 11 2016 23:40 bo1b wrote: Other business fields must be salty about how strongly the modern gaming community comes to the defence of shitty games.
Stop telling people what the want/don't want, because chances are the people who have been playing nostalrius for months probably know just how much they enjoy vanilla, and don't need someone writing paragraphs of shit about nostalgia.
2) Building an official Vanilla/BC/Wrath/Cata server would take millions and millions of dollars to start and upkeep. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand how game coding works
these two sentences in consecutive order are funny.
Just by the way, subs are on the decline because the game is complete shit.
This was a horrible decision, and if a group of 20 or so people can put together a private server with a stable population probably larger then most high pop current servers, then I'd be willing to put money that blizzard could re-discover some old files.
You don't have to fully understand game coding to know that it'd be a massive undertaking.
Subs are on the decline because of a combination of the game being old and not measuring up to newer games in terms of graphical fidelity and gameplay and the fact that the sub-based MMO is a dying genre as a whole with the rise of F2P and B2P.
I already told you why the other things you say in this post are incorrect and/or dumb, but here it is again for those who couldn't be bothered to read.
The actual number of people on the server is deceptively high because of a combination of high turnover (the people that play typically don't play for long) and it being F2P. They don't have the code because that's not how video game companies work, and the 20 people running the server have a much tinier job than Blizzard would if they made the server.
On April 11 2016 23:40 daemir wrote: Vanilla was fun because we didn't know wtf we were doing. Now we would know everything we're doing. The consumable grind back then was several leagues harsher than now, let's remember that vanilla didn't really limit you in consumables used in combat aside from their cooldowns and if memory doesn't completely fail me, you could run a flask + elixirs at the same time on top of using potions on cooldown and things like whipper root tubers (have fun farming THOSE, ha!). Elixirs would fade on death.
Most trash fights we have now are more interesting than most boss fights in tier1 and 2. Lot of the difficulty came with tackling the shitty raid UI, imagine modern raid tools ported to vanilla content. Yea, it would be no challenge at all. And someone would do it, there'd be a WeakAuras vanilla version and someone would make a bossmod support as well and there you go, that one or 2 abilities the bosses had back then on a huge timer wouldn't hold a candle to first trash pull in HFC at this time.
Oh and 40 man raid size, yuck. Good luck keeping up with recruiting to keep raiding with that. Not to mention there was 0 catch up mechanics. If you were raiding tier 2 or 2.5 and had to recruit someone, you needed to recruit someone with existing gear.
You're partially correct. Even back then people used CTframe? I think it was called, it had a lot of nifty features which eased the raiding experience. There was also "wow alkhazam" or something like that, I can't remember anymore, it was basically the vanilla version of wowhead.
Most people were very noob though, and that's why it made the experience so interesting. But it wasn't just that, no LFG, no flying mounts, reliance on other people for certain travel(mages/warlocks/engineers), quests generallly being harder and requiring groups, etc. These things added to the "community" feeling and the experience of an actual WORLD, I think these two things are the most important I miss from vanilla.
The shitty UI and systems were shitty, and when you look at them individually you don't see many benefits to having them in the game but together they basically "forced" you to be part of the community. I know that after early TBC the community aspect of the servers was gone. In vanilla I'd know most of the players by name and you'd have like 10-20 people on the server who everyone relied on for crafting certain things etc. Also, you had douchebags, people nobody liked etc. Reputation actually meant something.
The actual number of people on the server is deceptively high because of a combination of high turnover (the people that play typically don't play for long) and it being F2P. They don't have the code because that's not how video game companies work, and the 20 people running the server have a much tinier job than Blizzard would if they made the server.
A lot of people don't play on these servers because they're private as well, take that into account as well. Also I doubt blizzard trashed their old versions of wow, EQ1 is much older than WoW and it still has private servers running based on those original ones. Also, I don't think the people had an easy job. Most of the scripting, they had to do on their own. Just look at every private server, there's so many bugs and glitches around it barely resembles anything blizzard ever rolled out. This server was quite the exception.
2) Building an official Vanilla/BC/Wrath/Cata server would take millions and millions of dollars to start and upkeep. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand how game coding works
why couldn't blizzard have just said "we like what you've done, you've done a bloody good job. we'd like to officially own Nostalrius. we give you full autonomy, but we reserve the right to take you down at any moment. You (nostalrius) be transparent (regarding money/server costs whatever) with us and we don't mess with you."
I do wonder why blizzard just doesn't host like 2-3 servers, and see what happens. If a small comunity emerges let it stay, I mean blizzard has always been known for supporting their older titles far beyond the call of duty.
CTframe was just that, a raid frame where there was none. By today's standards, it was beyond shit. Also Thottbot was a thing, but what I mean is that now we have all things mathed out. Back then, you didn't have entire sites dedicated to simulating and theorycrafting classes and specs. There were some guides, sure, but nothing to the extent we have now. The tools we have now to work with when it comes to bosses is on a whole different level to back then.
I do agree we had more sense of community back then and your server actually mattered, but tbh I'll rather have LFD and get things done vs sit in orgrimmar spamming trade chat for a group for 3 hours to maybe get a blue drop, thanks.
2) Building an official Vanilla/BC/Wrath/Cata server would take millions and millions of dollars to start and upkeep. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand how game coding works
why couldn't blizzard have just said "we like what you've done, you've done a bloody good job. we'd like to officially own Nostalrius. we give you full autonomy, but we reserve the right to take you down at any moment. You (nostalrius) be transparent (regarding money/server costs whatever) with us and we don't mess with you."
Because of number 1 in my post.
And a lot of other reasons (not up to Blizzard's standards, not integrated with Battle.net, etc.)
Like I said, Blizzard absorbs Nostalrius, it's becomes official. Send people in to make it up to Blizzard standards. The way I see it, it looks like both sides could learn from each other. And it would be a massive good guy move by Blizzard to acquire Nostalrius. Brownie points for them.
Think of it as a franchise. Sounds like a win-win to me. Needless to say, the servers will have to be subscription based for Blizzard to make money.
doesn't everquest have legacy servers? it's actually ridiculous how defensive blizzard is about anyone thinking vanilla/bc/wotlk is superior to retail..
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: OK, you guys seem clueless enough that I'm going to have to explain this in detail, so long post time:
blablabla
tldr: your opinion.
Please don't preface this by "you guys seem clueless enough" when all you do is recycling the same old crappy nostalgia argument and other pretty uninformed arguments.
I am not going to argue that bringing back Vanilla would be profitable for them, atleast not to the degree they want every game to be profitable for them, but to me the real reason is because they don't want to admit that they fucked WoW so much over the last few years that a lot of people would prefer to play an old version of the game. They don't want to lose face.
It's sad because even if it would not return that much money, it would really boost their image which really nowadays is not that great anymore. Overall shutting down private servers is a dick move if you have no intention of bringing back vanilla (or other versions) yourself. I could pick the exemple of everquest, where the devs decided to bring back official vanilla everquest servers. It's just a nice move to their community. Too bad activision-blizzard is way too big a corporation to do nice stuff like this anymore.
I played on this server for 6 months and had some of the best times I've ever had playing WoW. Leveled up my Priest thinking I wanted to raid MC and ZG, BWL and I did, it was tons of fun, got all my epic gear and benediction which I always wanted to have. Then I decided I wanted to pvp so I started leveling a rogue which I had played in the past on retail, then I noticed that most fresh 60s gear is pretty shit but you could get some pretty decent epics from AB, WSG and AV factions to pvp at max level.
So, I started twinking to farm all that rep before max level, first at 19 then at 29 and finally at 39, almost had exalted with WSG and was on my way to revered with AB, it was so much fun, I even found a 29 twink guild to do premades with, I mean that is completely nuts that Nostalrius had such a huge player base with so many diff interests that a guild could JUST BE a guild for level 29 twinks, with 30-40 active players we did premades for WSG and AB almost every day. Then as I was farming some stuff to make gold since I was going to be busy with the coming AB weekend, I found out the server was getting shut down , was really heart breaking, all the work I had put into my new toon to finally see him to level 60 and have some fun pvping, was destroyed.
I had tons of fun with my priest, the raids were super hard I'll say partly because you went oom rather quickly as a healer and I laughed that even though I would go do Scholo with T1 or T2 geared people we would still wipe once or twice. Some of these stuff were very unforgiving, you made one wrong move and you'll pull a whole room or a whole other pack of mobs that would wreck your party. To me that is fun, it makes it so you can't have brain dead people in the group or idiots who can't play their class, if you're no good you're getting kicked out and replaced pretty simple.
Vanilla was fucking awesome I never played it back in retail (I started during tbc), but I loved this, I loved the slow leveling which gave way to so so many opportunities to meet people while doing dungeons to level up before the next area because there weren't enough quests in the previous one and you had to level up to do some of the follow up quests (I'm looking at you hillsbrad foothills). I even made some REALLY good friends while just fishing to make some gold because the stonescale eels would sell for quite a bit for someone starting out who had no gold lol, I pvp'd with those people, I pve'd with those people and made so many more friends doing "tedious" things that all these people bashing Vanilla for would never ever do or stop playing due to having to do them. I loved all of it, the good and the bad, it was fine because there was a huge community of people to do anything else with and it usually turned into a really great wow memory. I was not only working on my 2nd 60 to pvp with I was also working on a 3rd on ally side so I could have fun ganking horde players too , it was REALLY REALLY fun to pvp on this server, something I can't say for Cataclysm (when I quit) which is a real shame. I'll always remember going to Duskwood with 2 other 29 rogue twinks and spending 3-4 hours ganking players there, so much fun, specially when the allies would get on some horde alt to bitch at you :D, never experienced something like that in retail, nost was really one of a kind.
I'm looking for a new server, preferably one that won't get shut down next month before I get my rogue to max level to have some fun pvping, even if blizz makes these legacy servers I won't play in them, anything made by the current blizzard is babified for idiots and lazy people who "have a real life and don't have time for wow as it used to be", I don't know who's telling these people they have to play 10 hours a day to do shit in the game, I played 2-4 hours on week days and 6 on weekends and I had TONS of fun. The blizz that made great games like Wc2, Wc3, SC, SC:BW, Diablo and D2 no longest exists, so why bother play anything they make, it's been A LONG time since I bothered giving blizzard a dime and this only makes me not even bother with them any more. Hope everyone who played in Nost finds a good server to call home ^^ and enjoys the game once again, I know I will.
On April 12 2016 01:33 Endymion wrote: doesn't everquest have legacy servers? it's actually ridiculous how defensive blizzard is about anyone thinking vanilla/bc/wotlk is superior to retail..
You might be right, but when I last played(like 4years ago) I played on one of the private zek servers.
Even if blizzard doesn't host older expansions it would still be great if the public has access to those older versions of WoW, if nothing else to build an archive.
It's sad because even if it would not return that much money, it would really boost their image which really nowadays is not that great anymore. Overall shutting down private servers is a dick move if you have no intention of bringing back vanilla (or other versions) yourself. I could pick the exemple of everquest, where the devs decided to bring back official vanilla everquest servers. It's just a nice move to their community. Too bad activision-blizzard is way too big a corporation to do nice stuff like this anymore.
Shutting down private servers that try to run a business is fine, and blizzard's right. Shutting down this one seems distasteful.
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: OK, you guys seem clueless enough that I'm going to have to explain this in detail, so long post time:
blablabla
tldr: your opinion.
Please don't preface this by "you guys seem clueless enough" when all you do is recycling the same old crappy nostalgia argument and other pretty uninformed arguments.
I am not going to argue that bringing back Vanilla would be profitable for them, atleast not to the degree they want every game to be profitable for them, but to me the real reason is because they don't want to admit that they fucked WoW so much over the last few years that a lot of people would prefer to play an old version of the game. They don't want to lose face.
It's sad because even if it would not return that much money, it would really boost their image which really nowadays is not that great anymore. Overall shutting down private servers is a dick move if you have no intention of bringing back vanilla (or other versions) yourself. I could pick the exemple of everquest, where the devs decided to bring back official vanilla everquest servers. It's just a nice move to their community. Too bad activision-blizzard is way too big a corporation to do nice stuff like this anymore.
I'm allowed to say you're clueless when you say dumb stuff like that.
Nobody at Blizzard thinks they fucked up WoW. Nobody at Blizzard thinks it's worse today than it was. Look at the interviews, look at everything they've ever said. They're proud of the game that they made, there's no face to lose. Just because a vocal minority on the internet and a tiny fraction of people who mostly don't play the game anymore prefer Vanilla private servers doesn't mean anything to them.
Honestly, their image is great outside of the few echo chambers that tout nostalgia. You just enjoy sitting in those echo chambers and then pretending like everyone else outside agrees with you, which is a common fallacy of the internet.
Vanilla servers would cost them a shitload of money for almost no return to satisfy a tiny fanbase that won't really be satisfied anyway. It's not worth it on any level.
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: 2) Building an official Vanilla/BC/Wrath/Cata server would take millions and millions of dollars to start and upkeep. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand how game coding works, but even I know enough to know that Blizzard has drastically changed not only their in-game files, but the server architecture running WoW and all their other games.
Any developer worth their salt still has legacy versions of their code saved dating back to god knows when.
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: That means in order to make a server on a previous expansion, they'd have to completely re-do everything about how those games connect to the Blizzard servers in addition to acquiring new servers to host them on, relocalizing everything (WoW wasn't in anywhere near as many countries then as it is now), and establishing a support network to monitor customer support, constantly update, and fix bugs.
I've seen this argument before and I think it's bogus. There's no obligation for Blizzard to do anything to clean up Vanilla WoW like a modern game. They continue to maintain the servers for their other legacy titles without any of this stuff. Anyone who'd be interested in playing vanilla WoW knows what they're getting into, and there's not any requirement for Blizzard to do any of this supporting work for the product to satisfy these potential customers.
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: All of that is on top of doing exactly what the private server guys have been doing and reverse-engineering the files, because it's likely they don't have all the Vanilla files archived anywhere because that's typically not what game companies do.
No? Storage is cheap, it's pretty normal for software development companies to keep source code backed up far longer than it could ever conceivably be useful.
It's far more likely than not that Blizzard still has the source code for vanilla WoW, assuming they're following conventional practices.
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: OK, you guys seem clueless enough that I'm going to have to explain this in detail, so long post time:
blablabla
tldr: your opinion.
Please don't preface this by "you guys seem clueless enough" when all you do is recycling the same old crappy nostalgia argument and other pretty uninformed arguments.
I am not going to argue that bringing back Vanilla would be profitable for them, atleast not to the degree they want every game to be profitable for them, but to me the real reason is because they don't want to admit that they fucked WoW so much over the last few years that a lot of people would prefer to play an old version of the game. They don't want to lose face.
It's sad because even if it would not return that much money, it would really boost their image which really nowadays is not that great anymore. Overall shutting down private servers is a dick move if you have no intention of bringing back vanilla (or other versions) yourself. I could pick the exemple of everquest, where the devs decided to bring back official vanilla everquest servers. It's just a nice move to their community. Too bad activision-blizzard is way too big a corporation to do nice stuff like this anymore.
I'm allowed to say you're clueless when you say dumb stuff like that.
Nobody at Blizzard thinks they fucked up WoW. Nobody at Blizzard thinks it's worse today than it was. Look at the interviews, look at everything they've ever said. They're proud of the game that they made, there's no face to lose. Just because a vocal minority on the internet and a tiny fraction of people who mostly don't play the game anymore prefer Vanilla private servers doesn't mean anything to them.
Honestly, their image is great outside of the few echo chambers that tout nostalgia. You just enjoy sitting in those echo chambers and then pretending like everyone else outside agrees with you, which is a common fallacy of the internet.
Vanilla servers would cost them a shitload of money for almost no return to satisfy a tiny fanbase that won't really be satisfied anyway. It's not worth it on any level.
It would cost them as much as having the legacy blizzard team working, or less. Could probably even expand that team as that's already something they try to do - support legacy blizzard games. Yes, bnet1/d2/sc1/etc are much smaller compared to wow, but aside from a slightly bigger(at least for the needs of this small vanilla community) server base there's not much else to worry about.
edit: that's a good point yango, blizzard still has the original alpha version of wow somewhere. there was a great retrospective video about wow I think by blizzard like 1-2 years ago which showcases it more in detail.
On April 12 2016 01:56 Andre wrote: edit: that's a good point yango, blizzard still has the original alpha version of wow somewhere. there was a great retrospective video about wow I think by blizzard like 1-2 years ago which showcases it more in detail.
Honestly, I'd put money on Blizzard still having the source code for The Lost Vikings. Microsoft released their source code for MS-DOS like a year and a half ago, and that's from the early 80s.
Software development companies don't just throw away their code because storage is so cheap that there's no meaningful cost associated with holding onto it. It's silly to say "that's typically not what game companies do" because it's far more unusual for a software company to throw away early version source code from a product that's still actively being supported (even if that version isn't).
On April 12 2016 01:51 deth2munkies wrote: You just enjoy sitting in those echo chambers and then pretending like everyone else outside agrees with you, which is a common fallacy of the internet.
You really have some balls to spout shit like this after the crap you have been writing here pretending to school everybody.
On April 12 2016 01:51 deth2munkies wrote: You just enjoy sitting in those echo chambers and then pretending like everyone else outside agrees with you, which is a common fallacy of the internet.
You really have some balls to spout shit like this after the crap you have been writing here pretending to school everybody.
I'm not the one claiming that everyone thinks that Vanilla is better than live and Blizzard knows they fucked up WoW so bad over the years that no one would ever play it, in spite of a mountain of evidence to the contrary.
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own. While I don't have numbers because I'm not tight enough with either Blizzard or the private server people to give a conclusive answer, I think it's a good persuasive case. I'm not claiming that everyone thinks the way I do, nor am I claiming opinion as fact, and I'm even admitting I don't have the numbers to make the case conclusive.
Honestly, it's really not worth my time to even respond to shit like this, I just am procrastinating doing other things and I find it an entertaining distraction.
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.
How so ? It's free advertisment.
And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.
It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.
How so ? It's free advertisment.
And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.
It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.
Why do they need to advertise WoW? Everyone has heard of WoW, even non-gamers. The IP has gone on for 11 years and is still the biggest in their field. They don't need to spend millions of dollars in startup and upkeep for something a few thousand people (at most) would use.
There's already a free trial for WoW (play up to lvl 30 IIRC), the Vanilla experience is more likely to turn off rather than turn on any newer gamers who aren't used to the old days when grind and inaccessibility was the rule rather than the exception, and the Vanilla servers do have a negative effect by letting people play WoW without a subscription, even if it is a different version.
The last point is really the only one that's controversial, but I'd argue that even the people that say they wouldn't touch WoW anymore will get tempted from time to time to resub for a while (I know I do), and Vanilla private servers let them scratch the itch without paying Blizzard a dime. But I'd also posit (this is reaching moreso than the last statement) that most of those people who use the Vanilla servers as such wouldn't pay to play on them if they were offered for a sub by Blizzard. That's one of the real rubs with Blizzard making an official one, it's not just who will play, but who will pay to do so. And if people are playing the private servers but wouldn't pay for playing on official ones, that's really just straight up piracy.
I think you're vastly overestimating the cost necessary to set up and maintain a vanilla WoW server. If it took millions of dollars to set up, Nostalrius would never have gotten off the ground, since they very clearly don't have an operating budget on the order of millions of dollars, and unlike Blizzard don't have the original source code.
The number of players who would play a vanilla WoW server is small, but still would be significantly more than the lingering playerbases for D2, BW, and War3 (given how the vanilla WoW playerbase was orders of magnitude larger than those games) and Blizzard has no qualms continuing to maintain those servers.
On April 12 2016 03:26 TheYango wrote: I think you're vastly overestimating the cost necessary to set up and maintain a vanilla WoW server. If it took millions of dollars to set up, Nostalrius would never have gotten off the ground, since they very clearly don't have an operating budget on the order of millions of dollars, and unlike Blizzard don't have the original source code.
Go back and read my original post on the subject, it explains why it's a lot more expensive for Blizzard than for some modders.
Setting it up in Blizzard's own systems now is not a trivial task. The game was different back then and even bnet has changed a lot. If Blizzard was to offer vanilla servers, it would have to integrate into current bnet and they would have to support it as well, which means more staff. It's just not in their corporate image to put something half assed up on the servers and let it be there for a few interested people. Blizzard puts out polished games everytime they do so. Hell their betas are more polished than some AAA releases.
WoW is nowhere near the biggest mmorpg, also the current expansion is complete crap. There is a reason why they aren't talking about sub numbers anymore in public.
On April 12 2016 03:26 TheYango wrote: I think you're vastly overestimating the cost necessary to set up and maintain a vanilla WoW server. If it took millions of dollars to set up, Nostalrius would never have gotten off the ground, since they very clearly don't have an operating budget on the order of millions of dollars, and unlike Blizzard don't have the original source code.
Go back and read my original post on the subject, it explains why it's a lot more expensive for Blizzard than for some modders.
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: That means in order to make a server on a previous expansion, they'd have to completely re-do everything about how those games connect to the Blizzard servers in addition to acquiring new servers to host them on, relocalizing everything (WoW wasn't in anywhere near as many countries then as it is now), and establishing a support network to monitor customer support, constantly update, and fix bugs.
I've seen this argument before and I think it's bogus. There's no obligation for Blizzard to do anything to clean up Vanilla WoW like a modern game. They continue to maintain the servers for their other legacy titles without any of this stuff. Anyone who'd be interested in playing vanilla WoW knows what they're getting into, and there's not any requirement for Blizzard to do any of this supporting work for the product to satisfy these potential customers.
None of the things you say they "have" to do are things that anyone interested in vanilla WoW cares about or expects.
On April 12 2016 03:32 Klowney wrote: WoW is nowhere near the biggest mmorpg, also the current expansion is complete crap. There is a reason why they aren't talking about sub numbers anymore in public.
On April 12 2016 03:32 daemir wrote: Setting it up in Blizzard's own systems now is not a trivial task. The game was different back then and even bnet has changed a lot. If Blizzard was to offer vanilla servers, it would have to integrate into current bnet and they would have to support it as well, which means more staff. It's just not in their corporate image to put something half assed up on the servers and let it be there for a few interested people. Blizzard puts out polished games everytime they do so. Hell their betas are more polished than some AAA releases.
Legacy D2, War3, and BW servers have no B.Net 2.0 integration and essentially no support, and literally nobody has a problem with this. If "half-assing" these things was a problem, they would have pulled the plug on these games years ago, but instead they feel maintaining an unsupported legacy product for a small number of loyal fans is better than removing it to have a "cleaner corporate image". The idea that this affects their "corporate image" somehow is a made up argument from people trying to defend their decision not to do it.
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.
How so ? It's free advertisment.
And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.
It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.
Why do they need to advertise WoW? Everyone has heard of WoW, even non-gamers. The IP has gone on for 11 years and is still the biggest in their field. They don't need to spend millions of dollars in startup and upkeep for something a few thousand people (at most) would use.
There's already a free trial for WoW (play up to lvl 30 IIRC), the Vanilla experience is more likely to turn off rather than turn on any newer gamers who aren't used to the old days when grind and inaccessibility was the rule rather than the exception, and the Vanilla servers do have a negative effect by letting people play WoW without a subscription, even if it is a different version.
The last point is really the only one that's controversial, but I'd argue that even the people that say they wouldn't touch WoW anymore will get tempted from time to time to resub for a while (I know I do), and Vanilla private servers let them scratch the itch without paying Blizzard a dime. But I'd also posit (this is reaching moreso than the last statement) that most of those people who use the Vanilla servers as such wouldn't pay to play on them if they were offered for a sub by Blizzard. That's one of the real rubs with Blizzard making an official one, it's not just who will play, but who will pay to do so. And if people are playing the private servers but wouldn't pay for playing on official ones, that's really just straight up piracy.
Answering paragraphs.
1 - Heard off =/= Keep playing. You are thinking of it just as a TV ad. when people play a private game version of your MMO, eventually they will try out your LIVE version. It keeps people invested into your franchise, which is the important part.
2 - Trial comes with huge limitations to protect from gold seller spam which make it enjoyment rather bland. And more importantly, it's not something you can keep playing and getting invested into.
3 - If i am tempted to resub, it's because i want to play live WoW, not a legacy pirate server. Let get this straight, people who keep playing on pirate servers from different past versions of WoW, either also play live WoW or are not interested into live WoW. It's the same kind of argument people use against piracy when they say "piracy stole 20k copies". How the frack do you know how many of those would had bought it in the first place, if any. The piracy line gets even stupidier here since we are not talking of versions of WoW which are avaible to the customer otherwise. We are talking about versions of WoW which Blizzards neglects to release by its own here. Damn, for all i know, these "pirate" servers are doing a service to Blizzard for free, and they still manage to shit on them.
Dude I got no horse in this race at all, I liked vanilla and would probably play an alt if they did provide a server, but I totally understand why they don't. And people would cry for support and whine about bugs, don't kid yourself. People whine about anything.
On April 12 2016 03:38 daemir wrote: And people would cry for support and whine about bugs, don't kid yourself. People whine about anything.
So how do the official B.net forums having more or less whiners affect their "corporate image"?
It'd be within expectation for anyone who cares about the product. I think any obligation to polish the release any more than the bare minimum is totally imagined.
On April 12 2016 03:26 TheYango wrote: I think you're vastly overestimating the cost necessary to set up and maintain a vanilla WoW server. If it took millions of dollars to set up, Nostalrius would never have gotten off the ground, since they very clearly don't have an operating budget on the order of millions of dollars, and unlike Blizzard don't have the original source code.
Go back and read my original post on the subject, it explains why it's a lot more expensive for Blizzard than for some modders.
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: That means in order to make a server on a previous expansion, they'd have to completely re-do everything about how those games connect to the Blizzard servers in addition to acquiring new servers to host them on, relocalizing everything (WoW wasn't in anywhere near as many countries then as it is now), and establishing a support network to monitor customer support, constantly update, and fix bugs.
I've seen this argument before and I think it's bogus. There's no obligation for Blizzard to do anything to clean up Vanilla WoW like a modern game. They continue to maintain the servers for their other legacy titles without any of this stuff. Anyone who'd be interested in playing vanilla WoW knows what they're getting into, and there's not any requirement for Blizzard to do any of this supporting work for the product to satisfy these potential customers.
None of the things you say they "have" to do are things that anyone interested in vanilla WoW cares about or expects.
All of their connectivity is through Battle.net. They can't set up a server that isn't connected through Battle.net. Even if they HAD the source code for the original Vanilla WoW, they'd have to set it up to be compatible with Battle.net which, they've said in the past when asked about Vanilla servers, is very difficult. They also still have to provide tech support, customer service, and a relatively bug free and complete environment (none of this half assed scripting to gapfill or dropping certain quests). That means a lot of work for the engineers instead of improving WoW and its other games, and hiring of additional staff, all of which is expensive.
WoW is different than other games because it still exists and has been wholly changed in small bits over the course of its lifespan, unlike D2 and WC3 that have been consistently running this whole time.
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.
How so ? It's free advertisment.
And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.
It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.
Why do they need to advertise WoW? Everyone has heard of WoW, even non-gamers. The IP has gone on for 11 years and is still the biggest in their field. They don't need to spend millions of dollars in startup and upkeep for something a few thousand people (at most) would use.
There's already a free trial for WoW (play up to lvl 30 IIRC), the Vanilla experience is more likely to turn off rather than turn on any newer gamers who aren't used to the old days when grind and inaccessibility was the rule rather than the exception, and the Vanilla servers do have a negative effect by letting people play WoW without a subscription, even if it is a different version.
The last point is really the only one that's controversial, but I'd argue that even the people that say they wouldn't touch WoW anymore will get tempted from time to time to resub for a while (I know I do), and Vanilla private servers let them scratch the itch without paying Blizzard a dime. But I'd also posit (this is reaching moreso than the last statement) that most of those people who use the Vanilla servers as such wouldn't pay to play on them if they were offered for a sub by Blizzard. That's one of the real rubs with Blizzard making an official one, it's not just who will play, but who will pay to do so. And if people are playing the private servers but wouldn't pay for playing on official ones, that's really just straight up piracy.
Answering paragraphs.
1 - Heard off =/= Keep playing. You are thinking of it just as a TV ad. when people play a private game version of your MMO, eventually they will try out your LIVE version. It keeps people invested into your franchise, which is the important part.
2 - Trial comes with huge limitations to protect from gold seller spam which make it enjoyment rather bland. And more importantly, it's not something you can keep playing and getting invested into.
3 - If i am tempted to resub, it's because i want to play live WoW, not a legacy pirate server. Let get this straight, people who keep playing on pirate servers from different past versions of WoW, either also play live WoW or are not interested into live WoW. It's the same kind of argument people use against piracy when they say "piracy stole 20k copies". How the frack do you know how many of those would had bought it in the first place, if any. The piracy line gets even stupidier here since we are not talking of versions of WoW which are avaible to the customer otherwise. We are talking about versions of WoW which Blizzards neglects to release by its own here. Damn, for all i know, these "pirate" servers are doing a service to Blizzard for free, and they still manage to shit on them.
1) What the hell does an offered Vanilla server do to help any of that? You aren't making any sense at all. Saying "this is what my game was 11 years ago" doesn't help anyone decide whether or not to play the game now. Also, Blizz can't offer this shit for free, so why would they PAY to play an old version of the game, when they can pay to play the NEW version of the game, absent nostalgia?
2) It's restrictive, but if you buy the game your trial character becomes a full character that you can play in the real game. Can't say that about a vanilla server.
3) It is piracy by any definition, you are copying copyrighted material that you don't own for personal benefit. Financial benefit if you're running it for sub fees or donations. As far as legality goes, it's 100% illegal, no question. What we're doing is quibbling over the morality of "how bad" it is. I'm saying it's potentially worse than you think it is, and that's really it.
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.
How so ? It's free advertisment.
And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.
It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.
Why do they need to advertise WoW? Everyone has heard of WoW, even non-gamers. The IP has gone on for 11 years and is still the biggest in their field. They don't need to spend millions of dollars in startup and upkeep for something a few thousand people (at most) would use.
There's already a free trial for WoW (play up to lvl 30 IIRC), the Vanilla experience is more likely to turn off rather than turn on any newer gamers who aren't used to the old days when grind and inaccessibility was the rule rather than the exception, and the Vanilla servers do have a negative effect by letting people play WoW without a subscription, even if it is a different version.
The last point is really the only one that's controversial, but I'd argue that even the people that say they wouldn't touch WoW anymore will get tempted from time to time to resub for a while (I know I do), and Vanilla private servers let them scratch the itch without paying Blizzard a dime. But I'd also posit (this is reaching moreso than the last statement) that most of those people who use the Vanilla servers as such wouldn't pay to play on them if they were offered for a sub by Blizzard. That's one of the real rubs with Blizzard making an official one, it's not just who will play, but who will pay to do so. And if people are playing the private servers but wouldn't pay for playing on official ones, that's really just straight up piracy.
Answering paragraphs.
1 - Heard off =/= Keep playing. You are thinking of it just as a TV ad. when people play a private game version of your MMO, eventually they will try out your LIVE version. It keeps people invested into your franchise, which is the important part.
2 - Trial comes with huge limitations to protect from gold seller spam which make it enjoyment rather bland. And more importantly, it's not something you can keep playing and getting invested into.
3 - If i am tempted to resub, it's because i want to play live WoW, not a legacy pirate server. Let get this straight, people who keep playing on pirate servers from different past versions of WoW, either also play live WoW or are not interested into live WoW. It's the same kind of argument people use against piracy when they say "piracy stole 20k copies". How the frack do you know how many of those would had bought it in the first place, if any. The piracy line gets even stupidier here since we are not talking of versions of WoW which are avaible to the customer otherwise. We are talking about versions of WoW which Blizzards neglects to release by its own here. Damn, for all i know, these "pirate" servers are doing a service to Blizzard for free, and they still manage to shit on them.
1) What the hell does an offered Vanilla server do to help any of that? You aren't making any sense at all. Saying "this is what my game was 11 years ago" doesn't help anyone decide whether or not to play the game now. Also, Blizz can't offer this shit for free, so why would they PAY to play an old version of the game, when they can pay to play the NEW version of the game, absent nostalgia?
2) It's restrictive, but if you buy the game your trial character becomes a full character that you can play in the real game. Can't say that about a vanilla server.
3) It is piracy by any definition, you are copying copyrighted material that you don't own for personal benefit. Financial benefit if you're running it for sub fees or donations. As far as legality goes, it's 100% illegal, no question. What we're doing is quibbling over the morality of "how bad" it is. I'm saying it's potentially worse than you think it is, and that's really it.
1 - Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise. It's not that hard to understand. That's the service you are getting from pirate's servers. And you don't put or lose a nickel with it. Either i constructed poorly my sentence, or you had missed Heroes of the Storm or Hearthstone game releases.
2 - You still have to buy it tho, which defeats the purpose of a demo on a MMO where you need to invest time to get hooked up.
3 - And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers. Which is in my opinion, negative for them and a poor decission. Do you really think that the people who were playing nostalrius and didn't have a live subcription will suddenly run to buy one ? Or other pirate players at different servers ? Have a better opinion of Blizzard ?
On April 12 2016 03:56 deth2munkies wrote: All of their connectivity is through Battle.net. They can't set up a server that isn't connected through Battle.net. Even if they HAD the source code for the original Vanilla WoW, they'd have to set it up to be compatible with Battle.net which, they've said in the past when asked about Vanilla servers, is very difficult. They also still have to provide tech support, customer service, and a relatively bug free and complete environment (none of this half assed scripting to gapfill or dropping certain quests). That means a lot of work for the engineers instead of improving WoW and its other games, and hiring of additional staff, all of which is expensive.
WoW is different than other games because it still exists and has been wholly changed in small bits over the course of its lifespan, unlike D2 and WC3 that have been consistently running this whole time.
Again, why are these things "necessary"? Why is B.Net 2.0 connectivity a thing that HAS to happen for Blizzard to re-release vanilla?
I remember reading Blizzard say that the game is really butchered and they couldn't release patch 1.3.X or something, they'd actually have to go find alpha or something code and then develop from there. Vanilla launch was horrible for many patches as well.
Also I wonder just how long would people keep playing on vanilla server after few years when content is done and no new content would be coming. I mean look at WoD and what happened when you make one big patch only. Or more like how fast would people start whining for things like LFG when you suddenly don't find groups for ubrs anymore.
On April 12 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote: Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise ...
And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers.
It's not their IP anymore if someone else can use it. Their only choices are to shut them down or make them official. If you see how important IP is to a video game company, especially Blizzard, then I'm surprised that you think releasing their IP is going to be okay, or somehow paradoxically better for the value of their IP in the long run.
On April 12 2016 05:39 DCRed wrote: I remember reading Blizzard say that the game is really butchered and they couldn't release patch 1.3.X or something, they'd actually have to go find alpha or something code and then develop from there. Vanilla launch was horrible for many patches as well.
If they really don't have the source code for a stable version of vanilla, then as a business decision, not releasing a vanilla server is understandable.
On the other hand, I'd lose a lot of respect for Blizzard as a software company for a totally different reason.
Yeah it seems weird they wouldn't have working code for stable release but I remember reading something like that they'd have to go pretty far back.
Also I can't help but feel there's so much anger because of much of a letdown WoD was, I mean it's not like there isn't other pservers(yes I know nost was the best one) but there'll be new ones every now and then. And then there's also pservers for other exps, wotlk being pretty common for the pvp reasons as well.
I think the best case scenario would be if blizzard made a progression vanilla server. That would carry way more costs than just having a stable version out there, but it could be amazing. Something like EQ1 has done basically.
On April 12 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote: Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise ...
And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers.
It's not their IP anymore if someone else can use it. Their only choices are to shut them down or make them official. If you see how important IP is to a video game company, especially Blizzard, then I'm surprised that you think releasing their IP is going to be okay, or somehow paradoxically better for the value of their IP in the long run.
We are talking about a free private server not monetizing the IP. Not a company making a game making use of the IP or just copying it and profiting from it. Legally i don't think it harms your IP's hold.
Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.
On April 12 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote: Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise ...
And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers.
It's not their IP anymore if someone else can use it. Their only choices are to shut them down or make them official. If you see how important IP is to a video game company, especially Blizzard, then I'm surprised that you think releasing their IP is going to be okay, or somehow paradoxically better for the value of their IP in the long run.
We are talking about a free private server not monetizing the IP. Not a company making a game making use of the IP or just copying it and profiting from it. Legally i don't think it harms your IP's hold.
Well, the hosting service sure profited from that. So while Nostalrius team might've not seen a dime, someone got money off the IP.
The logistical problem I see with setting up Legacy servers, not thinking about the problems with the code, netcode and probably weird ways to make things work (invisible bunnies and infernals anyone?) is that they don't need one server. They need at least twelve I would say. Four for NA, four for EU and four for China.
So now that 150,000 players is split over twelve servers - making every one of these populated with 12,500 players. Is it worth it? That's the best split by the way. The answer? I don't know.
Can 12,500 (If a realm or two hog all the players, the others surely will feel deserted!) players recreate the crowded, lively atmosphere of Nostalrius for both factions? I don't know. (You can say that Chinese players weren't the ones playing Nostalrius - fine, then you have 18,750 players per realm, but then most likely Blizzard would want to set-up servers for China anyway - so it's a money thing.)
Is maintaining a crew of people dedicated to those twelve servers tedious? I don't know.
Will those servers require technological/coding backing up besides just popping the old code and running it? Probably.
Will Blizzard offer instant 60s to people who have left Nostalrius and don't want to even start over on another server without the boost? Don't think so.
Can Blizzard just create a Legacy server and let people play it? Let's say yes. Those servers go through all the progression, obviously.
Can people wait again for all the content, the same it was originally? Let's say yes.
So, the moment BC content approaches, do you discount the Legacy servers and make the move onto BC or make new servers, offering one-time all-account transfers for those (big assumption!) and leave the Legacy server running? Let's say yes. So, what happens to the playerbase?
Can people really bear the content-flow being laid out over two years, like it was originally? If not, what do you decide on? Make it all in a year?
Is that really what people want, seeing that Nostalrius seems to have kept Legacy pace?
What about the servers? If you keep running those twelve Legacy ones, you now have another twelve of TBC. Playerbase might split even more, maybe Legacy becomes deserted (I don't really see TBC failing, I believe that's the most nostalgic of the expansion just because there were more people experiencing it), what now?
Cut Legacy? Leave it unprofitable? Leave it without this "feel" of vanilla that everyone came for (bustling second-life)? I don't know.
You must remember, that while doing all this, you don't want to divert players from retail to Legacy (because expansions, of course, are additional surge in money). Also, what is the endgame? Every ten years remove everyone and make them start over? Every Vanilla->TBC->WOTLK cycle start over? I don't know. Neither do you and neither do they.
On April 12 2016 09:59 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.
Fair enough to argue that, but you were just telling us how we don't really want to play it like 2 pages back. Take a look at runescape/everquest to see what there customer base thought of reimplimenting vanilla. Hint, it's now bigger then the up to date version.
On April 12 2016 09:59 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.
Fair enough to argue that, but you were just telling us how we don't really want to play it like 2 pages back. Take a look at runescape/everquest to see what there customer base thought of reimplimenting vanilla. Hint, it's now bigger then the up to date version.
Well you don't. Both of those games have tiny playerbases to begin with nowadays, and the only people that are really playing are those playing out of nostalgia/habit that have been playing forever. One day, maybe WoW would be like that, but right now there's not a big enough demand for it. I already pointed out how 10-15k quoted on Nostalrius is both misleading and a drop in the bucket anyway. And speaking from personal experience, Vanilla outwears its welcome very quickly in the endgame since we've become accustomed to not putting up with the massive amount of bullshit that it wants you to, despite the fact it was a revolutionarliy small amount of bullshit at the time.
On April 12 2016 09:59 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.
The intrinsic disagreement is that you believe that Blizzard is obligated to "modernize" vanilla WoW by adding B.Net integration, fixing bugs, localizing to languages that the original client wasn't in, etc. I believe that none of these things are necessary for Blizzard to release vanilla WoW, which leads us to vastly different analyses of the actual cost of implementation.
This isn't like releasing a new game. Re-selling legacy software has a vastly different audience than new release retail games and as such the customer base has very different standards and realistic expectations for what they are getting. This is why services like GoG can exist and make a profit while providing very little in the way of support or fixes for the legacy software they sell. You're not targeting a new, casual audience for your product because you know the returns on that will be low. Not many new players would be interested in vanilla WoW. But because you are targeting a niche audience that already has a nostalgia-centric interest in your product, is willing to put time and effort into fixing things themselves if they don't work out of the box, and generally has pretty tempered expectations of a decade-old product, there is no need to invest a massive amount of time and money in modernizing and heavily supporting your product. Nobody who would be remotely interested in buying it cares either way. You just need to put the bare minimum product out there and the community is willing to do the rest of the legwork.
People buy repackaged forms of other media that they enjoyed in years past that they since lost or became unavailable--books, movies, music. Why is it so weird that people want to re-experience old games this way?
2) Building an official Vanilla/BC/Wrath/Cata server would take millions and millions of dollars to start and upkeep. I'm not going to pretend to fully understand how game coding works, but even I know enough to know that Blizzard has drastically changed not only their in-game files, but the server architecture running WoW and all their other games. That means in order to make a server on a previous expansion, they'd have to completely re-do everything about how those games connect to the Blizzard servers in addition to acquiring new servers to host them on, relocalizing everything (WoW wasn't in anywhere near as many countries then as it is now), and establishing a support network to monitor customer support, constantly update, and fix bugs. All of that is on top of doing exactly what the private server guys have been doing and reverse-engineering the files, because it's likely they don't have all the Vanilla files archived anywhere because that's typically not what game companies do. The upkeep of hiring additional staff specifically to deal with those servers alone makes it not worth it for them, as it's different enough as to be basically a different game from WoW now, so you'd need an entirely dedicated staff for each expansion's servers.
Even if they charged standard sub rates, these servers would be money-losers. Combine that with the fact that WoW subs as a whole are on the decline and there's really no reason for them to throw this much risk into a title that's starting to wane after 11 years.
If it's so difficult to set up, why could a few Frenchmen do it in their free time?
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote: 3) Everything you loved about Vanilla is gone and never coming back. The reason why Vanilla WoW was so good at the time was that it took the best parts of existing MMOs like Everquest and Star Wars Galaxies, threw them into a world that we loved (Warcraft), and made it a unique experience by having questing drive the story and progression. Going back to it now is just going back to a worse version of a game that we've been playing for 11 years. All the luster is gone, the newness has been outdone by countless titles since and WoW itself. All of the systems of questing, class balance, raid difficulty, etc, are all inferior to pretty much every other game on the market today and even WoW itself. The best things about Vanilla WoW were exploring the world, finding new stuff for the first time, and doing cool lore related things with characters that you'd seen in other games. Now, the world has been explored to death, there's nothing left to find with WoWhead and countless other online tools, and we've gotten so used to lore characters that we barely flinch when they show up. Going back in time and playing the game as it was doesn't fix any of that.
It may be nostalgic for a while, but when you hit max level and start to remember how painful it used to be just to grind enough to be useful in raids and how simplistic and conceptually easy the bosses were back then, you'll quit pretty quickly. And you won't be alone, while those servers have a pretty consistently high population, there's massive turnover. People are coming in and out all the time, and the vast majority don't hit max level unless there's some mechanism in the server to boost XP or buy 60s. That ties back into the fact that Blizzard won't be able to make money on these servers, because you have to cut that big number down to the number of people who'd actually pay for it (since it's F2P), then cut it again by those that will stay month after month to cover the maintenance costs.
Here's where I couldn't disagree more. The best experience in gaming I have ever had was Vanilla WoW 10 years ago. The second-to-best experience in gaming was Vanilla on Nostalrius. It's not just Nostalgia, the game is just fun. Much unlike modern WoW which is an achievement/mount/pet collection game with browser game elements. Even items in modern WoW feel like shit because everyone has the same fucking items, except maybe with different item levels. There's no community in modern WoW. No open PvP for world bosses. No open PvP because of successful guilds trying to grief each other. No drama. Nothing.
On April 12 2016 11:02 deth2munkies wrote: One day, maybe WoW would be like that, but right now there's not a big enough demand for it. I already pointed out how 10-15k quoted on Nostalrius is both misleading and a drop in the bucket anyway.
One option for them would be to come up with a real number for how much getting a Vanilla version running would cost and put it up on Kickstarter. See if it gets interest. If not - fine, forget it. If yes - then just go ahead and develop it. I'm willing to bet it would get funded in no time.
On April 12 2016 13:34 Dyme wrote: If it's so difficult to set up, why could a few Frenchmen do it in their free time?
This is a reiteration of the discussion I had with deth2munkies last page. He believes that unlike a bunch of fans doing it in their free time, Blizzard is obligated to "modernize" vanilla WoW to be up to the standards of their new titles--B.Net integration, localizations for previously unsupported languages, bugfixes, tech support, etc.
As I stated above, I just fundamentally disagree with that assumption. You're not marketing the product to new players, you're marketing it to a community of veterans who already know what they're getting into. They know what they're getting, and they'd be willing to do all of the work for you--community GMs/tech support, client mods, etc. Legacy re-releases aren't targeted at the same audience new retail games are. You can release the absolute bare minimum product and they'll be satisfied and willing to do the work to fill in the blanks.
On April 12 2016 09:59 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.
Fair enough to argue that, but you were just telling us how we don't really want to play it like 2 pages back. Take a look at runescape/everquest to see what there customer base thought of reimplimenting vanilla. Hint, it's now bigger then the up to date version.
Well you don't. Both of those games have tiny playerbases to begin with nowadays, and the only people that are really playing are those playing out of nostalgia/habit that have been playing forever. One day, maybe WoW would be like that, but right now there's not a big enough demand for it. I already pointed out how 10-15k quoted on Nostalrius is both misleading and a drop in the bucket anyway. And speaking from personal experience, Vanilla outwears its welcome very quickly in the endgame since we've become accustomed to not putting up with the massive amount of bullshit that it wants you to, despite the fact it was a revolutionarliy small amount of bullshit at the time.
I played Nostalrius for...uh a long time. Seven months or some odd and I didn't see myself flat quitting any time soon. I thought I saw the game with rose tinted glasses but man...I was actually rather wrong.
I played WoW from release to WOTLK. I quit before Cata because the game, already going in a direction I didn't like, was really doubling down on it. Came back twice just to see if I was wrong. Once in late Cata and once in WoD. I quit both within a few months (which happened to be enough to clear all content and realize it sucked). I continued to play Nostalrius for far longer than that. To ease my conscience so to say I kept my sub active on WoW while I played Nostalrius. Call it homage if you will. (I have since cancelled my sub since)
So..please stop telling other people what they want. It is so arrogant it's hard to really explain. You don't get to TELL PEOPLE what they do or do not want in a game. I know what I want and why I want it. You do not know what I want and you definitely don't know why I want it. A blizzard panel already said this and well...it wasn't well received. So I can explain it to you and explain why Nostalrius drew so much attention. Especially with the downward crap fest that was WoD.
You are under the impression that people were playing Vanilla for the end game. They were not. So few people saw the "endgame" of Vanilla that you simply can't make that assumption for how enormous Vanilla WoW was. No, while some did play for the end game raiding, most did not. I played it for the end game raiding as well and even happened to be one of the lucky few that not only saw Naxx 40 but got to clear it. That wasn't actually what kept me in the game.
Back then servers mattered. Back then Horde vs Alliance mattered. There was an actual community within your server. Your server was a different LARGELY ISOLATED world and it felt like you actually were a character in that world. You started to learn who the other faction was because you'd start to run in to them more often. You learned who your own faction was because you were always with the same people. You learned who sold what, when they sold it, and how much it was going to cost you. You explored the world because you had no choice...mounts were hard to get and walking was the name of the game. You actually felt...like you were PART OF A WORLD. You were actually in an MMORPG. You could actually form an identity completely separate from your own and have that identity make a mark on the world in the server you were playing. You had to, god forbid, find a group by talking to people and then WALK TO THE DUNGEON. You had an actual reputation with the people you were playing with beyond your own guild. Scammers were so quickly ostracized it was hilarious. At one point I felt that blizzard didn't even have to get involved with it because the community took care of it themselves.
PVP servers were a fairly volatile place. You died while questing like you wouldn't believe. People became infamous for hunting in Stranglethorn. People became infamous for hunting those hunters. AV was an epic battle of armies clashing. People actually had different gear. It just felt like a different world.
WoD feels nothing like that. Hell that started fading in WOTLK already. So you want to know why I want to play a Vanilla Server? I want a snowballs chance in hell of getting that feeling back. That feeling of being part of a world that is actually separate from the one I live in. Just to have fun with it. I got it in Nostalrius. I will never get it again in this current or likely any future incarnation of WoW.
That isn't to say Vanilla didn't have its issues. It did...its just those issues were overshadowed for me by the actual game play and community.
The funny thing is that Blizzard had a server right there. The leg work was largely taken care of. All they had to do was, instead of crushing it, allying with it. It doesn't NEED to be connected to B.net. It's a legacy. Anything people find there isn't going to do a damn thing to the current WoW anyway. It already had die hard support and customer service. All that had to happen was to give them the green light, perhaps force a subscription service with a blizzard IP tag, and pay the server costs. While I don't agree with a lot of American IP laws I completely understand that Blizzard had the legal right to do what they did. I understand that a company has to protect its IP or by law they lose the rights to that IP. I completely fail to understand why they went about it in the way that they did. They had an opportunity here and seemed to piss it all away on top of pissing a number of hardcore fans of WoW off...and to what gain? The vast majority of Nostalrius players were likely already lost customers and they could have easily turned them in to returned customers. Instead? Cold day in hell before I pay Blizzard another dime for pretty much anything that isn't a WoW legacy server and even that's iffy now given how they went about this whole thing.
You may have not felt this way with Vanilla. That's fine. I did and I know a load of other people did as well.
Logged in just to say that I share sentimental support for you guys who wanted and enjoyed vanilla wow. I read about it somewhere else and disagreed with that decision from Blizzard. They really don't seem to be in touch with their players.
I fully support vanilla servers! Though I've never touched the game, nor intend to.
Yep, the community server based was really what kept the game together as an MMORPG. Nowadays it's just a glorified game lobby with a lot of features, but hardly feels as a MMORPG, or atleast, not like in the old fashion.
In my experience people who enjoyed more vanilla is because they are more interested in the sandbox-esque feeling in a themepark, community, world feeling, have the option to turn off the "sandbox" sometimes or just get a diminished not as punitive sandbox experience, rather than just playing a sandbox game. It was a mix that made WoW very succesful back in the day for good reasons as the community links inside servers tied up closer and closer together.
I would say that flying mounts were the first step that started to lower my enjoyment of the game, as players could bypass interaction with other players while in traveling around the world to do stuff. Zones like the daily quest in the isle of the blood elf were fine, but since it was just a small zone, it was impossible for it to recapture the feeling of actually playing on a world.
I've quit WoW a long time ago, but I fully support and understand the demand for vanilla servers. I guess Blizzard is afraid that new players (who came post-vanilla) would discover the fact that the game was so much better pre-BC (or pre-WotLK).
On April 12 2016 22:19 OtherWorld wrote: I've quit WoW a long time ago, but I fully support and understand the demand for vanilla servers. I guess Blizzard is afraid that new players (who came post-vanilla) would discover the fact that the game was so much better pre-BC (or pre-WotLK).
People that played on Nostralius are veteran WoW players, no legit new WoW players would want to touch vanilla WoW with a 10 foot pole.
People that played on Nostralius are veteran WoW players, no legit new WoW players would want to touch vanilla WoW with a 10 foot pole.
Vanilla+TBC had 11m continuous subs and a huge amount of players joining at all times. I honestly think that MOP and WOD have trolleyed the new player experience enough to make it worse than back then.
People that played on Nostralius are veteran WoW players, no legit new WoW players would want to touch vanilla WoW with a 10 foot pole.
Vanilla+TBC had 11m continuous subs and a huge amount of players joining at all times. I honestly think that MOP and WOD have trolleyed the new player experience enough to make it worse than back then.
I doubt that. Looking at the new MMOs that come out lately vanilla seems super grindy and monotonous.
That being said, maybe the community/world aspect of it might be appealing to new players.
I think Vanilla has a better community/world aspect to it, but has much worse actual gameplay.
post-stat-squish leveling either through questing or LFG is much more monotonous, brainless, boring than classic+TBC leveling ever was.
I think that classes and specs are generally more balanced now which is great, but all of the content aside from current-tier-raids is a shadow of its former self. Level 1-60 content x1000; it's just awful for both new players and veterans.
On April 12 2016 23:16 Cyro wrote: post-stat-squish leveling either through questing or LFG is much more monotonous, brainless, boring than classic+TBC leveling ever was
At least you progress super fast. That shit goes by in a few hours and you outlevel zones. Its boring in the sense its super ez and shit dies fast. Vanilla/TBC is a lot more slow progress type of boring. Esp with the quest design, low mobility and sustain. On top of that, lack gear and stats in that content, (no shoulders until like level 20 or something silly), no spellpower on those low level items too so you're not doing more damage until you buy more ranked shit.
On April 12 2016 23:16 Cyro wrote: post-stat-squish leveling either through questing or LFG is much more monotonous, brainless, boring than classic+TBC leveling ever was
What does the stat squish have to do with it? The ease of killing stuff? That was already done when they added Heirloom gear.
The new player experience isn't that important to WoW anymore since its not going to attract a whole lot of new players. It is simply old and new people tend to try out other, new MMO's if they get into the market.
People that played on Nostralius are veteran WoW players, no legit new WoW players would want to touch vanilla WoW with a 10 foot pole.
Vanilla+TBC had 11m continuous subs and a huge amount of players joining at all times. I honestly think that MOP and WOD have trolleyed the new player experience enough to make it worse than back then.
I doubt that. Looking at the new MMOs that come out lately vanilla seems super grindy and monotonous.
That being said, maybe the community/world aspect of it might be appealing to new players.
I think Vanilla has a better community/world aspect to it, but has much worse actual gameplay.
The world felt bigger and you saw more people as you traveled that is for sure. The community tho I disagree with.
The community is what you make of it, The difference was that Vanilla forced you to interact with people you didn't really want to interact with in order to get groups. The fact we (the players) stopped talking to anyone outside our social circle (be it guild or otherwise) as soon as it was no longer required simply shows that we didn't want to do it in the first place.
On April 12 2016 23:20 Gorsameth wrote: The world felt bigger and you saw more people as you traveled that is for sure. The community tho I disagree with.
The community is what you make of it, The difference was that Vanilla forced you to interact with people you didn't really want to interact with in order to get groups. The fact we (the players) stopped talking to anyone outside our social circle (be it guild or otherwise) as soon as it was no longer required simply shows that we didn't want to do it in the first place.
For the current WoW players sure, but not for a huge chunk of the people who had left the game ever since then.
What does the stat squish have to do with it? The ease of killing stuff? That was already done when they added Heirloom gear.
No, it wasn't. For one, heirlooms only existed for veteran players in WOTLK+ (not classic+TBC) and when heirlooms existed and you had them, stuff still took a little while to die. I quested halfway to cap right before cata with heirlooms on a hunter and then leveled a new one from 1-100 right after the stat squish and it was a completely different game, 3x easier is an understatement.
Stat squish & class reworks is when everything went super wonky. Heirloomless characters are suddenly hitting 3-4x harder than before, relatively. A level 40 char has the health of a level 60 raider even though the quest and dungeon mobs don't hit any harder.
The new player experience isn't that important to WoW anymore since its not going to attract a whole lot of new players.
I disagree. The playerbase in the first 6 years was built from losing subscriptions left and right but pulling in new players way faster than they lost old ones. The average time that every current WoW played has played WoW seems to have been increasing dramatically since around cata.
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The fact we (the players) stopped talking to anyone outside our social circle (be it guild or otherwise) as soon as it was no longer required simply shows that we didn't want to do it in the first place.
This is actually a subject that i've seen talked about a lot. The TL;DR is that players will follow the path of least resistance even when they strongly dislike that path; for good game design you should make the path of least resistance fun.
On April 12 2016 23:22 ref4 wrote: WoW quests have been sticking to the exact same boring formula since Vanilla:
1. Kill X amount of Y 2. Kill X amount of Y and bring back A amount of B 3. Collect X amount of Y
There's been a lot more variety /quirky mechanics like Vehicle quests or quests where you control a different character, as well as the rate of which shit drops.
Low drop rate quests are probably the more annoying part about Vanilla.
What does the stat squish have to do with it? The ease of killing stuff? That was already done when they added Heirloom gear.
No, it wasn't. For one, heirlooms only existed for veteran players in WOTLK+ (not classic+TBC) and when heirlooms existed and you had them, stuff still took a little while to die. I quested halfway to cap right before cata with heirlooms on a hunter and then leveled a new one from 1-100 right after the stat squish and it was a completely different game, 3x easier is an understatement.
Stat squish & class reworks is when everything went super wonky. Heirloomless characters are suddenly hitting 3-4x harder than before, relatively. A level 40 char has the health of a level 60 raider even though the quest and dungeon mobs don't hit any harder.
The new player experience isn't that important to WoW anymore since its not going to attract a whole lot of new players.
I disagree. The playerbase in the first 6 years was built from losing subscriptions left and right but pulling in new players way faster than they lost old ones. The average time that every current WoW played has played WoW seems to have been increasing dramatically since around cata.
The fact we (the players) stopped talking to anyone outside our social circle (be it guild or otherwise) as soon as it was no longer required simply shows that we didn't want to do it in the first place.
This is actually a subject that i've seen talked about a lot. The TL;DR is that players will follow the path of least resistance even when they strongly dislike that path; for good game design you should make the path of least resistance fun.
Not going to deny the leveling is beyond easy now, Blizzard simply didn't spend the time re-balancing all the old content and after how badly the old world redesign in Cata was received I don't blame them, also see lack of new players
So your agreeing with me? The game gained a lot of new players when it was young and that slowed down when it got older. It how gaming works.
I agree players take the path of least resistance, and some might will the mute pug world unfun but is that number anywhere in relation to the people who didn't enjoy standing in Ironforge for an hour shouting for a tank and/or healer for LBRS?
Whenever I was 'forced' into pugging an old raid for the legendary quest on alts I was reminded of how annoying the average WoW player can be and how little desire I have to interact with him in any form.
What sort of changes would you envision to return the community feeling without getting all the annoying stuff back aswell.
I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back: 1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
Preamble: I played Nostalrius very little (I got a Human Paladin to 15 over the course of a couple evenings then sort of forgot about it). I play retail in a high end raiding guild, and have played on and off since Vanilla. I also haven't read this thread too much but I skimmed the past two pages or so. Please note that I am trying not to pass judgment on which version of the game is better. Also I'm really tired so I hope this is coherent.
Vanilla WoW is like life, in that you were forced to interact with people even if you didn't necessarily want to in order to accomplish goals. In doing so you met some assholes, but you also made friends and had memorable experiences. From reading others forums, I think a lot of people that played Nostalrius extensively understood this.
So let's talk about why Blizzard doesn't get this (or maybe they do) and the "You think you want it but you don't" remarks
Blizzard's logic/reasoning is totally understandable without having to project insecure/malicious intent on them. However, I think they are either wrong or are attempting a feat that I think is near impossible.
They think the current state of the game is better than Vanilla. Why? Well, two reasons. One, the game is in many ways much better on a gameplay level. It's challenging on a more mechanical level than say, an organizational/managerial level (did you farm up all this gear for this boss, how much spare time do you have to farm this, etc.). Classes are more challenging to play well in a vacuum, specs are more viable at an end game level. Bosses are more complex.
Then there's reason two, which in some ways contradicts reason one. You see, the tuning of most encounters are such that almost none of the added complexity matters. If you aren't doing organized raiding (meaning not LFR) or PvP, none of that really matters all that much. Everything is really easy, and it's designed so that you don't have to socialize with anyone unless you want to do high end raiding/PvPing because that's what the playerbase thinks they want. Anyone can play! And this gives people the option to play solo, which is great, because it means you don't get any of those bad social interactions.
Except, if you don't meet any assholes, chances are you don't meet any cool people either. And you don't make friends... and, well the game is still easy, because it's tuned so that anyone can do it. And that's not satisfying. You don't feel any accomplishment, and since it's quick and easy so that no one gets left behind, once those solo players finish their solo stuff in a given patch or expansion, they have nothing left to do, and most will unsub.
It's easy to say, well, just socialize with people. You are the change, etc. etc. But that's self aggrandizing bullshit. We are human, we will take the path of least resistance. And turns out, pretending all those other characters are just AIs or whatever, is a lot easier than actually talking to people. Unless you're a high end raider or PvPer where you gotta to those people because you play this game with them every week, for multiple nights a week, fuck those other people. Chitchatting in LFD won't speed things up. In fact, it will probably slow them down because of typing. In extreme cases it could even make someone important ragequit or get kicked, and that's even worse.
So that was the beauty of Vanilla. By accident maybe, it hit that sweet spot, and you had communities, made friendships, memories.
So why doesn't Blizz want all that money? Why did they change the game? Why no legacy servers?
Personally, I think Blizzard would have to be stupid to not be aware of this, and I interpret things like "You think you want this but you don't" as "You want the community feel of the game, not the game itself," but admittedly this is my own biased perception of things. And that itself makes it a dumb thing for them to say, because of its vagueness.
So the alternative is this: They want it all. They want the big community feel but they also want the game to be, ah, "accessible" like it is now, so that people can, uh, play how they want. But just typing it out makes it sound insane. I don't have the slightest clue how to get that sort of world community feel people want while also making it easy so that the guy who has a family and doesn't have time to do anything longer than a 30 minute play session because of obligations and this and that can actually play and be happy. Which... leads into another tangent, of how you can't please everyone.
And I think Blizzard would rather have something they consider a good game over something popular. Since, well, Blizzard is prideful. And this pride also stops them from releasing legacy servers even if they might be profitable. And prideful people don't like to admit when they're doing something stupid, so they say stupid things like I talked about a couple paragraphs ago.
Aside: Blizzard is also well within their rights to shut down private servers, and it's also important to protect their IPs. As far as I know it doesn't matter that Nostalrius wasn't making money off it or that Blizzard doesn't offer legacy servers or any of that.
One of the biggest problems now is that literally all open world content, dungeon and anything that's not a current-tier-raid is made irrelevant by the gear scaling in the game. DPS is tripling every tier, so on the release of the second tier we're doing 9x as much damage as on launch.
For the first 5 years of the game, the gear that 95% of the playerbase had was not that much better than basic max level gear. Not even 2 years deep into the current expansion.
idk... I feel there's an easy way to make all parties happy. Have vanilla servers be a bonus of the sub, so they have a bigger number to flaunt as a subscriber numbers, they get to try whatever inclusive stuff they want for retail, while hanging onto the legacy of vanilla wow.
These aren't people that are trying to rip Blizzard off and get away with playing their game for free, these are people who just want experience.that uniqueness of Vanilla WoW.
On April 13 2016 00:25 Cyro wrote: One of the biggest problems now is that literally all open world content, dungeon and anything that's not a current-tier-raid is made irrelevant by the gear scaling in the game. DPS is tripling every tier, so on the release of the second tier we're doing 9x as much damage as on launch.
For the first 5 years of the game, the gear that 95% of the playerbase had was not that much better than basic max level gear. Not even 2 years deep into the current expansion.
I agree completely. DPS scaling is moronic this expansion and probably my biggest issue with the game atm.
and TomatoBisque, very nice post and I agree with most, if not all, of it.
On April 13 2016 00:28 lestye wrote: idk... I feel there's an easy way to make all parties happy. Have vanilla servers be a bonus of the sub, so they have a bigger number to flaunt as a subscriber numbers, they get to try whatever inclusive stuff they want for retail, while hanging onto the legacy of vanilla wow.
These aren't people that are trying to rip Blizzard off and get away with playing their game for free, these are people who just want experience.that uniqueness of Vanilla WoW.
I think Nony hit the nail on the head with his post. What kind of message does it send from Blizzard if they run both? "Hey we have this cool game with 5 expansions but a large enough portion thinks its shit so we still run the base game on the side".
Plus Blizzard holds itself to a certain standard (it might not be the standard you want but that isn't relevant for this) and if they launch Vanilla servers they would feel obligated to themselves to support them. And they are not willing to go back and fix Vanish or any number of issues that the old game still had.
New player experience right now in WoW is absolutely abysmal.
I played a one week trial a few months ago after not playing since TBC and it was a complete joke. I was still just in frozen shadow weave gear (lol, spriest progression), and gained about 8 levels barely replacing anything and just got bored because all I did was ride around mounted dotting everything in sight because the limiting factor was how many mobs I could reach, not the threat of dying and not the amount of damage I was doing to each mob. I didn't feel any power creep at all at the point I stopped playing. I mean, it's kind of my fault I guess for abusing flying mounts and having remotely good gear, but the early game levels shouldn't feel like end game grinding the whole way.
On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote: I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back: 1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
I absolutely agree with this and I've had those exact same thoughts for a while. There is no way Blizzard will ever release legacy servers as long as they are actively supporting the main game as it would send a really bad message (basically admitting that their main game is not attractive enough compared to the old). I also don't think a petition of all things will change anything.
We are talking Activision-Blizzard, not just the old Blizzard, there is no way such a big corporation would care about that little portion of the community that want to play vanilla and this is really what is making me sad. With this Blizzard, there is no place for a good gesture to a small part of the community, only maximum profit will cut it (although yes I know, the devs probably don't want to admit that they ruined their own game either).
On April 13 2016 01:00 chocorush wrote: New player experience right now in WoW is absolutely abysmal.
I played a one week trial a few months ago after not playing since TBC and it was a complete joke. I was still just in frozen shadow weave gear (lol, spriest progression), and gained about 8 levels barely replacing anything and just got bored because all I did was ride around mounted dotting everything in sight because the limiting factor was how many mobs I could reach, not the threat of dying and not the amount of damage I was doing to each mob. I didn't feel any power creep at all at the point I stopped playing. I mean, it's kind of my fault I guess for abusing flying mounts and having remotely good gear, but the early game levels shouldn't feel like end game grinding the whole way.
Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content
On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote: I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back: 1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
I absolutely agree with this and I've had those exact same thoughts for a while. There is no way Blizzard will ever release legacy servers as long as they are actively supporting the main game as it would send a really bad message (basically admitting that their main game is not attractive enough compared to the old). I also don't think a petition of all things will change anything.
We are talking Activision-Blizzard, not just the old Blizzard, there is no way such a big corporation would care about that little portion of the community that want to play vanilla and this is really what is making me sad. With this Blizzard, there is no place for a good gesture to a small part of the community, only maximum profit will cut it (although yes I know, the devs probably don't want to admit that they ruined their own game either).
I dont buy this. If max profit would work, wouldnt they want a variety of everything to get the most money? You're saying that vanilla servers wont make them any money? I'm doubtful, I think this is more of an arrogance issue, or they feel if they send 10 guys to work on vanilla servers, thats 10 guys that should be working on keeping retail customers happy, because they've dropped the ball so badly the last expansion.
That being said, idk, I hope its not the arrogant reason, I think there is way or implementation that gives classic players what they want AND save face. and I hope they go for that, even if they spin it like the 15 dollar service compliments eachother or some shit.
On April 13 2016 01:00 chocorush wrote: New player experience right now in WoW is absolutely abysmal.
I played a one week trial a few months ago after not playing since TBC and it was a complete joke. I was still just in frozen shadow weave gear (lol, spriest progression), and gained about 8 levels barely replacing anything and just got bored because all I did was ride around mounted dotting everything in sight because the limiting factor was how many mobs I could reach, not the threat of dying and not the amount of damage I was doing to each mob. I didn't feel any power creep at all at the point I stopped playing. I mean, it's kind of my fault I guess for abusing flying mounts and having remotely good gear, but the early game levels shouldn't feel like end game grinding the whole way.
Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content
On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote: I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back: 1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
I absolutely agree with this and I've had those exact same thoughts for a while. There is no way Blizzard will ever release legacy servers as long as they are actively supporting the main game as it would send a really bad message (basically admitting that their main game is not attractive enough compared to the old). I also don't think a petition of all things will change anything.
We are talking Activision-Blizzard, not just the old Blizzard, there is no way such a big corporation would care about that little portion of the community that want to play vanilla and this is really what is making me sad. With this Blizzard, there is no place for a good gesture to a small part of the community, only maximum profit will cut it (although yes I know, the devs probably don't want to admit that they ruined their own game either).
I dont buy this. If max profit would work, wouldnt they want a variety of everything to get the most money? You're saying that vanilla servers wont make them any money? I'm doubtful, I think this is more of an arrogance issue, or they feel if they send 10 guys to work on vanilla servers, thats 10 guys that should be working on keeping retail customers happy, because they've dropped the ball so badly the last expansion.
That being said, idk, I hope its not the arrogant reason, I think there is way or implementation that gives classic players what they want AND save face. and I hope they go for that, even if they spin it like the 15 dollar service compliments eachother or some shit.
I have no doubt they would be some money if the released legacy servers, but it would be chump money compared to what they make with the main game (in terms of attracting players).
The issue would be that it could be perceived as them having a lack of confidence in their current product, which is something they really don't want to do as a company if they want to promote what they are currently working on. But I also think a good part of the reason is them being arrogant (maybe it's not the right term tho? There is nothing wrong with being proud about your work, but they are indeed a bit stubborn; that Blizzcon question about legacy servers is really an example of that).
Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content
They don't want you doing anything aside from the last patch raid that they released, as far as balance and fun is concerned. That's the only way you can have such a huge lack of playable content (even for a player who has never set foot in the game before) in a 12 year old game that's had a huge dev team on it for the entire time
Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content
They don't want you doing anything aside from the last patch raid that they released, as far as balance and fun is concerned. That's the only way you can have such a huge lack of playable content (even for a player who has never set foot in the game before) in a 12 year old game that's had a huge dev team on it for the entire time
Yeah, that's been my complaint about the game since Wrath. When ICC came out, Naxx might as well have been a level 70 raid in regards to relevance because of how how much catch up gear were in the 5mans and ToC being a loot pianta.
But even if that wasnt the case, they'd still want you levelling in the new shit and not the old dated stuff.
On April 13 2016 03:06 Cyro wrote: Even WOTLK was kinda different. Can you imagine having 55% crit chance on a fire mage in ulduar gear? That's reality of WOD
Yeah, wrath was when all that kind of weird gear inflation started. I rember in ToC, I absolutely hated Hit, because I got hit capped in THREE hit pieces, it was nuts. Also they had to nerf armor pen, since so many people were close to hard armor pen cap in Ulduar. (which people eventually hit in ICC)
Wotlk and the start of multiple raid difficulties is where it started. In addition to increasing the power creep per tier they doubled and later tripled the frequency. And that while stats scale exponentially with ilvl.
Yeah, warforged for all tiers probably plays into that as well.
I hope they felt like jackasses, they put in Sunwell Radiance...during Sunwell because they made tanks way too powerful...and you would think they would have learned from those design failures...and then two years later they had to put Sunwell Radiance into ICC because tanks were too powerful...again
Warlords outdoor and dungeons are balanced around i600 but the first tier gives i700 gear which has 2.59x more stat points (that also increase in value for every point that you have) and 2p+4p sets. It doesn't take a math degree to know how that will feel in-game.
Not that they shouldn't hire people with math degrees - EVE Online is a much smaller MMO by player count and has an entire team of economists specifically employed to watch the numbers.
Yeeah I went to try out Kronos as well while I wait for playtbc to open and it's okay, though some quests have really bad drop rates (which they didn't in nostalrius), besides that, it's fine. Also met a few people who didn't come from nost but from retail after hearing all about this mess with nost they decided to give private servers a try, go figure.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Apparently IP law is found within the Declaration Of Independence, who knew? I was not aware that the rights to IP were unalienable. But wait, they totally are.
But semantics aside, Blizzard was always going to go down this route. Even if they offer vanilla servers, I question what percentage of people were playing just to play WoW without paying. But I bet that its a much larger number that people account for.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
I dont think this is the case. There are MMOs that have PEAKED at 500k subscribers 10 years ago and are still getting content/expansions to this day. WoW has like 20 years of life left.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
the important fact is that this proves there can still be hype about the game. I bet there are 10-20 million people in the world that would play the game again if it somehow reached a quality close to Vanilla/TBC.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount. And they sure as hell DO care about that. that's why they release new expansions every year and try to fix the game they ruined, but making it progressively worse because they refuse to listen to the community.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
IDK, this is a weird topic, because I'm uncertain if we're debating "Modern WoW" or "WoD"... its like no shit its the worst expansion ever, but does that necessarily mean it's forever this way ? WoD was amazing for the questing experience and that's pretty much all it offered.
I'm not sure if im making excuses or whathave you, but its not even a discussion of Modern WoW vs Classic WoW at this point, its just everyone beating on the agreed upon worst expansion.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
IDK, this is a weird topic, because I'm uncertain if we're debating "Modern WoW" or "WoD"... its like no shit its the worst expansion ever, but does that necessarily mean it's forever this way ? WoD was amazing for the questing experience and that's pretty much all it offered.
I'm not sure if im making excuses or whathave you, but its not even a discussion of Modern WoW vs Classic WoW at this point, its just everyone beating on the agreed upon worst expansion.
Isn't Modern WoW basically the latest expansion? So Modern WoW 2016 = WoD, i.e., the worst state WoW has ever been in.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
A huge spike happened at the start of WoD of people buying into the hype. They then all left again when WoW was still the WoW they had left.
The rest of the sub loss is in line with the overall decline.
Yeah... I think at this point we're going to always expect a huge surge + decline at the expansion launch. That's just been every MMO in the last few years. Subs becoming a hard sell with how many games get free updates nowadays/how AAA games go super cheap. There's probably never going to be an expansion that surges and then grows after. I think thats more of an MMO problem than a WoW problem at this point. (Not saying that excuses how bad WoD is, just something to think about)
That's also something to keep in mind if you think WoW is going to die anytime soon... WoW expansions are super cheap to make and they often sell better than most AAA 60 dollar titles... they probably do amazing on expansion sales alone..
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
IDK, this is a weird topic, because I'm uncertain if we're debating "Modern WoW" or "WoD"... its like no shit its the worst expansion ever, but does that necessarily mean it's forever this way ? WoD was amazing for the questing experience and that's pretty much all it offered.
I'm not sure if im making excuses or whathave you, but its not even a discussion of Modern WoW vs Classic WoW at this point, its just everyone beating on the agreed upon worst expansion.
Isn't Modern WoW basically the latest expansion? So Modern WoW 2016 = WoD, i.e., the worst state WoW has ever been in.
Modern era, not necessarily present. I would say Modern WoW is Cata-Present. Arguably Wrath-present. That's when most of the features Classic wow players complain about got into the game. Those expansions have way more in common than say, Vanilla has with Wrath.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
For anyone who's semi-invested into the game it's already "free to play". You can basically buy the game time with ingame money. It's really not hard to get the gold to support that if you invest 15-20hours/week and use the AH efficiently.
WoW will get free2play for real sometime soon imo, maybe we can get legacy servers then.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote: [quote]
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed or resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered.
Just think about that: hundrets of thousands of people prefer to play a 12 year old version of a game rather than the most recent one. So Instead of trying to fix their game, Blizzard goes ahead and slaps their hardcore fanbase in the face. Business is not all about present numbers. Launching Legacy servers would be positive publicity. It might lead to people resubbing for Legion, telling their friends about it, or to buiyng new Blizzard Games. Instead, they just made a few hundred thousand enemies.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
IDK, this is a weird topic, because I'm uncertain if we're debating "Modern WoW" or "WoD"... its like no shit its the worst expansion ever, but does that necessarily mean it's forever this way ? WoD was amazing for the questing experience and that's pretty much all it offered.
I'm not sure if im making excuses or whathave you, but its not even a discussion of Modern WoW vs Classic WoW at this point, its just everyone beating on the agreed upon worst expansion.
I've been hearing the latest expansion is the worst since BC (which is now apparently considered the best). I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people have played the game for years. You get bored with it eventually.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote: [quote]
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
Yeah, that is the only factor that caused people to stop playing WoW. Of course. Correlation and causation. A perfect theory.
No, the world of video games has changed since 2004.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote: [quote]
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote: [quote]
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
Yeah, that is the only factor that caused people to stop playing WoW. Of course. Correlation and causation. A perfect theory.
No, the world of video games has changed since 2004.
You keep saying that yet you ignore that WoD reached 10 million subs at its release. So it is fact that these people are still interested in playing a good version of WoW.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
IDK, this is a weird topic, because I'm uncertain if we're debating "Modern WoW" or "WoD"... its like no shit its the worst expansion ever, but does that necessarily mean it's forever this way ? WoD was amazing for the questing experience and that's pretty much all it offered.
I'm not sure if im making excuses or whathave you, but its not even a discussion of Modern WoW vs Classic WoW at this point, its just everyone beating on the agreed upon worst expansion.
I've been hearing the latest expansion is the worst since BC (which is now apparently considered the best). I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people have played the game for years. You get bored with it eventually.
Yep, as someone who has played since Vanilla this argument gets me laughing every time. Wotlk is by many now considered the height of WoW (and in subs it is) but god if only you were around at the time. WotLK was the death of wow, its all over. daed game!.
I don't want them trying to get a more vanilla feel on Legion on further expansions. For that, they would need to remove a lot of features that i bet many of the current players enjoy. Legacy servers is the only way to go, either past expansions or very limited features on some servers to promote server communities to flourish.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] "all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
Yeah, that is the only factor that caused people to stop playing WoW. Of course. Correlation and causation. A perfect theory.
No, the world of video games has changed since 2004.
You keep saying that yet you ignore that WoD reached 10 million subs at its release. So it is fact that these people are still interested in playing a good version of WoW.
Yes. They will play, get their fill of the content in a few months and move on. Just like every expansion. The cycle of WoW is predictable. The next expansion will have a similar bump and then a similar drop off.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote: [quote]
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] "all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
The decline is going to happen, it’s a 10 year old game and there are thousands of other options out there in the world. F2P MMOS have improved and other games like LoL, hearthstone and Dota 2 provide service based social entertainment. It’s a new market.
WoW’s decline is just going to happen because its old and what people are looking for in games shift.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] "all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
How often do I have to undermine the 5mil number before you stop beating a dead horse? I even spelled out the numbers for you...
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 02:28 Godwrath wrote: Thanks to blizzard's advertisment, i am playing vanilla on Kronos, it seems like a good server which got a good amount of nostalrius players.
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
IDK, this is a weird topic, because I'm uncertain if we're debating "Modern WoW" or "WoD"... its like no shit its the worst expansion ever, but does that necessarily mean it's forever this way ? WoD was amazing for the questing experience and that's pretty much all it offered.
I'm not sure if im making excuses or whathave you, but its not even a discussion of Modern WoW vs Classic WoW at this point, its just everyone beating on the agreed upon worst expansion.
I've been hearing the latest expansion is the worst since BC (which is now apparently considered the best). I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people have played the game for years. You get bored with it eventually.
This would make sense if the game was the same game as it started.They are very different games right now, and each expansion has been changing the game, so it's only natural for different people, X, Z or Y expansion would be worse.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
How often do I have to undermine the 5mil number before you stop beating a dead horse? I even spelled out the numbers for you...
The might only have increased by 2.5 million towards WoD, doesn't change the fact that they lost those 2.5 million new players, plus 2.5 mill from MoP.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
[quote] Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
How often do I have to undermine the 5mil number before you stop beating a dead horse? I even spelled out the numbers for you...
The might only have increased by 2.5 million towards WoD, doesn't change the fact that they lost those 2.5 million new players, plus 2.5 mill from MoP.
And none of this has anything to do with the 150,000 people playing free vanilla wow.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
How often do I have to undermine the 5mil number before you stop beating a dead horse? I even spelled out the numbers for you...
The might only have increased by 2.5 million towards WoD, doesn't change the fact that they lost those 2.5 million new players, plus 2.5 mill from MoP.
And none of this has anything to do with the 150,000 people playing free vanilla wow.
It does have with player retention, something retail WoW barely manages to do.
On April 14 2016 04:48 Plansix wrote: [quote] Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
How often do I have to undermine the 5mil number before you stop beating a dead horse? I even spelled out the numbers for you...
The might only have increased by 2.5 million towards WoD, doesn't change the fact that they lost those 2.5 million new players, plus 2.5 mill from MoP.
And none of this has anything to do with the 150,000 people playing free vanilla wow.
It does have with player retention, something retail WoW barely manages to do.
10 year old game has declining player base, but is still larger than all other player based in the same genre. And much like the arguments of piracy isn’t a problem, these are not players that would pay to play anyways.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote: [quote] "all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
Since WoW is one of the most popular long running video games in the world, its not that huge a deal. Once again, WoW has far exceeded its lifespan. They are just going to keep on trucking. Even if WoW ends 2 years from now, it will be a legend in the game industry for the next 30 years.
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
well it could be and is probably a lot of things... at the end of the day I think it's less the wrong track... and more there's just so little content... no new bgs, arenas, classes , gameplay elements . It's just lacking on all fronts.
its also an old game... its also super expensive... 180 dollars a year on top of the 50 dollar expansion. its not like theres another MMO that has 12 million subscribers that everyone is flocking to.
On April 14 2016 04:38 Plansix wrote: I am sure Blizzard has a very clear idea how many people they are losing and business expectations for WoW. These vannila WoW are just an IP issue they need to address because its a protect it or lose it system.
On April 14 2016 04:37 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:19 ref4 wrote:
On April 14 2016 04:02 Disengaged wrote:
On April 14 2016 03:58 ref4 wrote: [quote]
inb4 Big Brother Blizzard closes down Kronos too
God forbid they do what is within their god given rights as IP owners.
Blizzard has every right to do whatever the hell they want with their IP like shutting down private servers or dig a deeper grave for WoW with each expansion.
That being said, maybe they should have some humility and learn why they're bleeding subs left and right and there is such a strong vanilla Wow underground community. I mean they probably know the reason but they just have their heads way too high in their asses to address the problem.
I especially love that they will stop reporting their sub # after their last quarterly report. Panic Mode Panic Mode! Quick, let's shut down Nostralius that will bring all that 150K users back to our retail servers!
"all those 150k" Im sorry but no the Vannila WoW unground community is not important to blizzard. Your forgetting that this big vanilla server is ~3% of WoW's actual population. They are vocal and determined yes but their not a strong community that Blizzard needs to be listening to.
Blizzard is well aware that WoW will someday need to shut down or go free to play. Nothing lasts forever.
That is true, but those 5-6 millions were lost all in one expansion, as opposed to over several.
If this doesn't say WoD is all hype and no substance I don't know what is. Largest cliff-dive of playerbase in any game's history probably ever.
IDK, this is a weird topic, because I'm uncertain if we're debating "Modern WoW" or "WoD"... its like no shit its the worst expansion ever, but does that necessarily mean it's forever this way ? WoD was amazing for the questing experience and that's pretty much all it offered.
I'm not sure if im making excuses or whathave you, but its not even a discussion of Modern WoW vs Classic WoW at this point, its just everyone beating on the agreed upon worst expansion.
I've been hearing the latest expansion is the worst since BC (which is now apparently considered the best). I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people have played the game for years. You get bored with it eventually.
Yep, as someone who has played since Vanilla this argument gets me laughing every time. Wotlk is by many now considered the height of WoW (and in subs it is) but god if only you were around at the time. WotLK was the death of wow, its all over. daed game!.
I agree, I also have been playing since 2005 until last year and on and off since 2010. At the time, I really did not like many things about Wrath. I did not like raid having multiple difficulties (except Ulduar...that was done masterfully). I did not like getting raid gear from grinding heroics and gathering badges. I did not like many other things.
However, now that I look back, I think that was the last time the game was still good. Maybe it wasn't great compared to TBC and Vanilla, but it was still good. Arthas' presence was also a huge factor for me, he was a villain I could relate to from playing WC3.
Ever since Cataclysm, it all went downhill sadly. I only liked MoP PvP since then, and that's because I played a warlock and could two shot people. Ever since Cata I wished the game could get better.
On April 14 2016 04:53 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: [quote]
You miss the point. Do you actually think Blizzard doesn't care about losing ~100 million dollars A MONTH just because it has already made 1000 times more profit than expected? It still has a potential player base that is 2-3 times the current amount.
Based on what? Moon logic and dreams. Of course Blizzard is going to try to keep people playing and keep it interesting. These private servers are not going to change that. The conversion rate of people who are playing for free on these servers to those who would pay for a vanilla server is going to be comically low.
Based on what? Based on the fact that subscriber numbers doubled close to the release of WoD. And that was before the expansion was released. Common sense dictates that there are several million players that would have subbed pr resubbes based on positive reviews and/or recommendations from their friends IF the expansion had actually delivered
End of MoP to start of WoD was a spike from 7.5 to 10mil. It has since dropped to ~5mil. That is not doubled but fine, whatever.
I would argue that a large part of those 2.5mil people that came back and left again would have never been satisfied because they want a feeling back they can never gain. That feeling of playing a new game, of feeling kinda lost and overwhelmed.
That's why people keep flocking to every new MMO that gets released and then leave it again a month or 2 later, they are chasing a ghost.
I can't prove you wrong, but a decline of >50% within one year should tell any game developer that they are on the wrong track. 5 million people don't just quit a game because the gaming world has changed.
How often do I have to undermine the 5mil number before you stop beating a dead horse? I even spelled out the numbers for you...
The might only have increased by 2.5 million towards WoD, doesn't change the fact that they lost those 2.5 million new players, plus 2.5 mill from MoP.
And none of this has anything to do with the 150,000 people playing free vanilla wow.
It does have with player retention, something retail WoW barely manages to do.
10 year old game has declining player base, but is still larger than all other player based in the same genre. And much like the arguments of piracy isn’t a problem, these are not players that would pay to play anyways.
You are repeating yourself, it's stupid not to try to find out why your player retention is dropping out of aging which is not the only reason as you try to make it, simplistic as it sounds. If you don't manage to get new players in, you should start thinking about how can you do it, or you are just giving up on the idea that you are just going to milk the cow until it does. Something that for other games may be true, but for MMORPGs, 10 years is not exactly a point of no return for a succesful game.
And the second statement is barely true nowadays. Some wouldn't pay, but you are doing a generalization. Thinking that none of those who play on a private legacy server or people who don't actually play on private servers wouldn't pay to play on a legal legacy server is as dumb as you can get. Specially since you can't really talk about the demand of a service that can't be bought nowadays.
And it goes both ways, 150k accounts on nostalrius means nothing or very little either. Posts like the reddit one have more value than that, or any signed petitions.
I don't get how a legacy server possible COULDN'T make sense.
I have a level 60 warrior on a Vanilla server that's being maintained by two amateurs, and they got 99% of the Pre-Naxx content working perfectly.
So if Blizzard, with all their resources, made a server like that, luring in at least half a million people for nostalgia reasons alone, and even if only ten percent of those stay for a couple of months until they've all cleared the content, they'd make a huge profit.
Now Blizzard, as part of Activision, must has done the profit- and loss-analysis, I'm sure. But I can't conceive of a any way how that would not be profitable.
On April 14 2016 06:20 DickMcFanny wrote: I don't get how a legacy server possible COULDN'T make sense.
I have a level 60 warrior on a Vanilla server that's being maintained by two amateurs, and they got 99% of the Pre-Naxx content working perfectly.
So if Blizzard, with all their resources, made a server like that, luring in at least half a million people for nostalgia reasons alone, and even if only ten percent of those stay for a couple of months until they've all cleared the content, they'd make a huge profit.
Now Blizzard, as part of Activision, must has done the profit- and loss-analysis, I'm sure. But I can't conceive of a any way how that would not be profitable.
Yeah, the reason is mostly about their proudness on their own baby, and being more worried to not alienate their current playerbase than growing it. Many people are very vocal against legacy servers as they fear it would take resources away from the main game.
On April 14 2016 05:31 Plansix wrote: The decline is going to happen, it’s a 10 year old game and there are thousands of other options out there in the world. F2P MMOS have improved and other games like LoL, hearthstone and Dota 2 provide service based social entertainment. It’s a new market.
WoW’s decline is just going to happen because its old and what people are looking for in games shift.
I agree with this. However, I also think that there's a reasonable argument that Blizzard's team approached this new gaming world with the wrong design strategy.
In analyzing how the WoW team changed the game over the years, we have to distinguish between features that are focused on player acquisition (i.e. making the game easier for a new player to get into) vs. ones that are focused on player retention (i.e. making veterans feel like they have things of value invested in the game). Many of the things that have been added to the game don't act on these axes and are straight improvements (e.g. UI improvements). There are also many player acquisition focused changes that do not detrimentally affect the game on a player retention axis (e.g. leveling changes--impacts the veteran player very little, but impacts the new player a lot). In some cases, Blizzard has even added retention-over-acquisition features (e.g. heirlooms).
However, many of the changes that are decried by veterans are changes that are focused on player acquisition. This is because in many ways, player acquisition and player retention are at odds with one another--a design problem which isn't very easy to solve. On the one hand, player retention needs to make the player feel like they've achieved something, that the things that they did in the game have value, and that leaving the game would waste the hard work they've put in to get where they are. However, on the flip side, player acquisition needs to make the new player feel like these things that veteran players already have are not insurmountable and that the new player can "catch up" to those at the top. Things like 5-mans in current content obsoleting raid gear of the previous tier are examples of acquisition-over-retention design. They make it easy for the new player to jump into current content, but they also implicitly reduce the value of what the veteran player accomplished by completing that prior raid content. Note however, that the things a player achieved in a game does not just include in-game accomplishments such as getting gear of a certain quality or completing a raid. It also extends to meta-game accomplishments such as forming player relationships. In this way, features like LFR are also examples of acquisition-over-retention design since they exist to allow new players to "catch up" without the barrier of first forming the social relationships that used to be necessary to experience the content, and likewise making veteran players feel like those relationships are no longer important.
The problem is this--no matter how much Blizzard tries to improve WoW on a player acquisition axis, they're ultimately fighting a losing battle against F2P games. No matter how easy your game is to get into, if you're trying to go up against an F2P game with a retail subscription game, at the end of the day the new player is going to jump into the game that doesn't cost them any money to play first. And in focusing on player acquisition, the game has to sacrifice on some fronts with respect to player retention. Would WoW be better off if the WoW team accepted that they were never going to beat F2P games at player acquisition and focused on player retention and the veteran player experience? It's impossible to know for sure, but it is a stance that can reasonably be argued for.
EDIT: It's also very reasonable to see how this player acquisition focus arose in WoW's design. At it's inception, WoW's advantage over its competitors was in player acquisition--it was just an easier game to get into. It slowly lost this advantage over time as games copied it's design, and F2P games began to take over a larger and larger share of the market, at which point, the prevalence of F2P games meant that WoW was generally at a disadvantage when it came to player acquisition purely by nature of their business model.
In fact, placed in this context, the trajectory of WoW's active subscriber count actually makes a lot of sense. Despite the fact that WoW's design has always had this player acquisition focus, this design strategy continued to pay dividends all the way through WotLK until early Cata. Cata marks the beginning of the F2P explosion, as LoL really started to take off and punctuate the success of F2P business models. This is the turning point in WoW's subscriber curve, and also the turning point where WoW went from being advantaged compared to its competitors w.r.t player acquisition to being disadvantaged.
On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote: I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back: 1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
I don't think the point is one game being better than the next. Classic / BC WoW and current WoW can be appreciated for entirely different reasons. It's not even about which one is better, it's about the fact that those are very different games, one of which is now no longer available to play.
As for losing current WoW subs for a Classic Server... Negro please, I doubt there's much overlap at all. And even if they did lose subscribers on current WoW, they'd be losing business to themselves. Because we're not demanding that the game be free, we're just wishing for it to be available at all.
On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote: I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back: 1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
I don't think the point is one game being better than the next. Classic / BC WoW and current WoW can be appreciated for entirely different reasons. It's not even about which one is better, it's about the fact that those are very different games, one of which is now no longer available to play.
As for losing current WoW subs for a Classic Server... Negro please, I doubt there's much overlap at all. And even if they did lose subscribers on current WoW, they'd be losing business to themselves. Because we're not demanding that the game be free, we're just wishing for it to be available at all.
Your points are the ones I'm responding to haha (not that I quoted anyone in particular, but just addressing those mindsets). I guess I just didn't explain myself well enough. I understand that they're different games, and many enthusiasts who are crazy enough to play on private unofficial servers and get in discussions on forums are able to understand that they're different games. But for the mainstream reputation of the game, officially supporting this split is not an easy thing for Blizzard to agree to. I think if it actually was a different game and not just previous expansions and vanilla, then it'd be a lot easier situation. They'd have their convenience>community MMO and their community>convenience MMO. Even that would be a tricky thing to do.
As for overlap between current wow subs and a classic server, I agree there's not much overlap. That's not the concern. The concern is about the health of current WoW. The people who want classic server don't give a shit about the health of current WoW. They already see current WoW as dead and see no value to it. But Blizzard is still making a ton of money off of it. Their main business AND their main opportunity to give people a better experience is with current WoW. One reason WoW has dominated is because MMO's require a lot popularity and momentum to be successful. It still has the #1 spot and undermining that in ANY way is an extremely unwise thing for Blizzard to do. Competing against yourself and splitting your community is a good way to make yourself vulnerable to competitors, especially for MMO's. If the idea of playing classic catches on and starts attracting the attention of current WoW players, then THOSE players see current WoW as shit. The "disease" spreads. And along comes a new MMO marketed toward vanilla WoW players and now that MMO has stolen players from current WoW subs, along with the vanilla WoW players, who now have an MMO to play that isn't guaranteed to be a dead end. I mean, who would ever think that "launching" an MMO with a defined end point would be a GOOD thing anyway? That's why I say it becomes a much easier decision when current WoW is dying anyway. It's just inappropriate, unwise, risky, kinda crazy to do such a thing when the latest expansion still sells well and current subs are in the millions, despite how much they've fallen from WoW's peak.
Look IDK if it'd be a good business decision or not. All I'm saying is that it seems like a lot of people aren't really putting themselves in Blizzard's position and their calculations aren't considering a lot of factors that could be really important. It does not become an easy decision until current WoW loses a TON more subs. Even then it might not be worth it to them. It's just not as simple as "the only way blizz is ever gonna get money from me is with a classic server, and there are a lot of people like me, so it's dumb that blizz doesnt just do it and take our money". I'm not even trying to argue with people or try to act superior like I understand the situation better. Honestly I'm just trying to throw some ideas out there so people who are frustrated by the whole situation might be a little less frustrated.
Oh on another note, I was kinda skeptical whether or not Vanilla would do well long-term. I'd imagine it would put off casuals as theres not much content for them, (so I thought) besides like levelling alts and being fodder for people who love to one shot kids in their BiS PVE gear.
However, On Nostralius, they full cleared BWL in a pug the month after it came out, and there were apparetly several 80 minute BWL pugs running amok when it was the most challenging content. thats pretty nuts from what I imagined it would be like.
On April 14 2016 13:33 lestye wrote: Oh on another note, I was kinda skeptical whether or not Vanilla would do well long-term. I'd imagine it would put off casuals as theres not much content for them, (so I thought) besides like levelling alts and being fodder for people who love to one shot kids in their BiS PVE gear.
However, On Nostralius, they full cleared BWL in a pug the month after it came out, and there were apparetly several 80 minute BWL pugs running amok when it was the most challenging content. thats pretty nuts from what I imagined it would be like.
The Feenix-server was pugging AQ40 before they decided to "upgrade" it to TBC (by replicating the launch event and everything) - which then made people leave the server.
On April 14 2016 13:33 lestye wrote: Oh on another note, I was kinda skeptical whether or not Vanilla would do well long-term. I'd imagine it would put off casuals as theres not much content for them, (so I thought) besides like levelling alts and being fodder for people who love to one shot kids in their BiS PVE gear.
However, On Nostralius, they full cleared BWL in a pug the month after it came out, and there were apparetly several 80 minute BWL pugs running amok when it was the most challenging content. thats pretty nuts from what I imagined it would be like.
The Feenix-server was pugging AQ40 before they decided to "upgrade" it to TBC (by replicating the launch event and everything) - which then made people leave the server.
What, you're telling me Vanilla isn't the most HC of all time and raids were super hard?
Honestly it's so tiring to read the same things over and over when anyone who actually played during vanilla knows shit was easy, not targeting anyone here just general ranting by reading the stupid arguments about pservers. But then again most of the complainers probably have never even attempted things like HC Ragnaros and Lei Shen so they don't know any better.
I don't believe Vanilla servers would last super long either, after content would be done or enough time had passed so that finding groups for fresh max level characters would become harder and harder the numbers would start going down afterwards.
Seeing this thread made me check wow vanilla maps...NOSTALGIA HIT LIKE A SLEDGEHAMMER
I remember me and a friend of mine telling each other 'warcraft III was good, but no way we are paying a monthly fee'. Then first trailer comes out ( )...and next I am begging my mum to pay it for me (I was 15 back then).
Now I am seeing all those places again...damn the feeling when I reached Stranglethorn valley for the first time. The beauty of RedRidge mountains...damn, I forgot all those places. The feeling of power I got when I was able to withstand the Western Plaguelands...
Thanks for the chill, I will monitor this thread. I stopped playing wow before the first expansion because I didn't have many real life friends playing it and everytime I logged in at 60 I needed at least 3/4 hours to do a raid. I wanted something more casual at that point...
On April 14 2016 13:33 lestye wrote: Oh on another note, I was kinda skeptical whether or not Vanilla would do well long-term. I'd imagine it would put off casuals as theres not much content for them, (so I thought) besides like levelling alts and being fodder for people who love to one shot kids in their BiS PVE gear.
However, On Nostralius, they full cleared BWL in a pug the month after it came out, and there were apparetly several 80 minute BWL pugs running amok when it was the most challenging content. thats pretty nuts from what I imagined it would be like.
The Feenix-server was pugging AQ40 before they decided to "upgrade" it to TBC (by replicating the launch event and everything) - which then made people leave the server.
What, you're telling me Vanilla isn't the most HC of all time and raids were super hard?
Honestly it's so tiring to read the same things over and over when anyone who actually played during vanilla knows shit was easy, not targeting anyone here just general ranting by reading the stupid arguments about pservers. But then again most of the complainers probably have never even attempted things like HC Ragnaros and Lei Shen so they don't know any better.
I don't believe Vanilla servers would last super long either, after content would be done or enough time had passed so that finding groups for fresh max level characters would become harder and harder the numbers would start going down afterwards.
Relax man... You are entitled to your opinion just like others are to theirs. Had you told me back when I was playing vanilla on Blizz servers that I would one day clear AQ40 in a PUG and consider it no big deal I would've laughed you in the face.
As for the longevity of a legacy server: I played on Feenix for a good 1½-2 years or so - and I was still a rather "young" member compared to others. Vanilla servers definitely could have a decent lifespan and definitely provide a ROI if you looked at it isolated (but as Nony point out, that is not really the correct way of evaluating such a thing).
EDIT: For me it has always been Blackrock Mountain that gave me that feeling of "home" in Vanilla. The PvP in there was glorious.
EDIT2: I can also highly recommend looking at some of the old PvP videos of people that were considered good. None of us had much of a clue until TBC came around it seems
Even the super classic best of the best bc highlight pvp vids mostly showcase moves that were completely standard among anyone remotely decent.
Which brings me to the point that I would have some interest leveling once on a legacy server for mad nostalgia but I doubt it could keep me interested. It was arena and arena only despite how shitty it often was that kept me playing off and on for 7 years or whatever.
I'm not talking BC, I'm talking true old-school vanilla PvP in BRM/STV/Plaguelands. People are mouseclicking abilities/consumables (and this includes Grand Marshals/Warlords).
Ya I knew what you were referencing. I just took it one step further and mentioned that the superstars from the golden age even. Hydra/neilyo/etc are pedestrian even by modern standards. Vanilla pvp was actually quite bad imo from a mechanics standpoint. The open world feel was good, but yeh arenas are what hooked me in for a long time.
On April 14 2016 19:44 Atreides wrote: Ya I knew what you were referencing. I just took it one step further and mentioned that the superstars from the golden age even. Hydra/neilyo/etc are pedestrian even by modern standards. Vanilla pvp was actually quite bad imo from a mechanics standpoint. The open world feel was good, but yeh arenas are what hooked me in for a long time.
Oh yea, PvP in vanilla was really bad if you look back at it. When I played vanilla again on private servers, I really only did PvE because PvP was such a turnoff. It was great at the time because I did not know any better tho and the open world element was pretty cool for a while. But yes, for me, arenas is what made pvp.
My favorite PvP would be a mix of Tbc and Wotlk. I really like the PvP in Tbc except the fact that some class are downright broken OP, that a lot of specs do not work at all in PvP and that there is way way too much RNG (mace stuns and so on). But still I always have a ton of fun with my rogue in tbc pvp. Wotlk brought some ameliorations (less RNG, more viable classes/specs) and was also fun overall, but I really did not like S7/S8 too much because the pace became really stupid (way too fast) because everyone was dealing so much damage.
Well vanilla was very much rock/paper/scissors (and who had the bigger hammer - i.e. better gear). TBC around season 2-4 were probably the best PvP period at least for me. I do think Hydra and e.g. Sonny played with some excellent game sense and very solid mechanics. They quite clearly out-thought their opponents and were rather innovative in their usage of skills if you can talk about that in such a game. I have no idea what modern standards look like - I jumped off the train years ago and now only play Vanilla/TBC servers.
Oh you aree on the wrong mindset again, trying to compare apples to oranges. The pvp was very different too. And many people didn't mouseclick either (i didn't, and i was a warlord), but anyways warlord was never about being the best as rating on arenas was, but about having the social connections, time, will and commitment to your premade to be a warlord. I saw some very terrible players being warlords, but they were pillars of the server's community at organizing pvp events, bgs or roam parties, which is at the end of the day, what being a warlord meant on a game which is way more focused towards server communities.
Same for gear, PvP gear from warlord got outclassed really fast by PvE gear (tier 2, lacked some stamina in comparison if memory serves me, but the resists made up for that plenty, which was more important because of partial resists). I don't remember if they were equal to T1 when it was released. Only the weapons remained being pretty good for a good amount of time, but for example for a warlock, book of shadow (AV) + azuresong was already better than the staff. You needed 5k health as a clothie, after that, you could get as much pve gear you wanted.
And here comes the important part, to be successful on PvP you had to raid. As simple as that. Yes you could play and gank PvE'rs with better gear because many of them were pretty bad players, specially not top PvE guilds, which for obvious reasons had a good amount of PvP oriented players too, but against a good player with much better gear, you had to work for it and you weren't likely to win except if you were the scissors to their paper. So again, your background mattered, the time you invest and relationships you make matter, as they may or may not allow you to get to the point where you can compete with those players. But skill mattered, saying it didn't is just silly. Hell i killed a 60 rogue with my lock at lvl 38, took minutes but the poor fucker just sucked hard. Same with 1v3 or 1v4 fights that you could find plenty if you looked for them.
So again, you can't really compare PvP on a MMORPG esque style, to the nowadays focused on fairness and equality, and beautifully boxed in your fast food instance. They were different, and people enjoy different things.
Also bursty kind of fights can be much more engaging (or give you more frustration if you don't know crap), but most people didn't pvp much if they think you could one shot people that wasn't very undergeared. As a lock, i had no troubles surviving the ambush + backstack + cb evis, when it was all the rage, even when you could use axes for your ambush. For me, they are more enjoyable, pvp on TBC as a lock on arenas was so stupid that made me quit the class altogether, drain fucking shit. And i tell you, i was 2,2k rating with only about 20 games played on 2s, it was good, but fuck how boring it was to play.
AP - POM - PYRO kind of burst cooldown based is the only kind of shit burst, but there were plenty of ways to stop it from doing crap. Hell, we pisseed over 5+ mages premades on WSG easilly, frost and later on elemental (my favorite mage spec of all times by far) specs were far superior specs.
Merciless Gladiator here, I think the thing that made BC the most fun was that you could play people with half your HP and a third of your damage, making you feel like a god. The Arena system was so broken, BGs were completely unrated, it was the wild west. Great for nerds like me who played five hours a day, not so great for those who didn't have that time or interest.
Classic was even more imbalanced, but you it was more difficult to find fodder for your Askandi. Mowing through noobs with the Torch of the Damned is one of my fondest PvP memories, unfair as it might have been.
i miss vanilla wow hahaha, such good times. Southshore pvp... Tarren Mill... the trolling and corpsecamping in Barrens, Stranglethorn Vale and Ungoro Crater... corpsecamping at the Zul Farrak entrance :D .... the good ol' lowbie instances... first time I entered Gnomeregan it all felt so threatening LOL...
had my first raid ever in Ahn Qiraj... then Zul Gurub,... ooooh the trolling everyone did on vent... I remember when there were queues of 4000k people and you had to wait over 2 hours to get ingame.... what an amazing game this has been... once upon a time.
We wanted to let you know that we’ve been closely following the Nostalrius discussion and we appreciate your constructive thoughts and suggestions.
Our silence on this subject definitely doesn’t reflect our level of engagement and passion around this topic. We hear you. Many of us across Blizzard and the WoW Dev team have been passionate players ever since classic WoW. In fact, I personally work at Blizzard because of my love for classic WoW.
We have been discussing classic servers for years - it’s a topic every BlizzCon - and especially over the past few weeks. From active internal team discussions to after-hours meetings with leadership, this subject has been highly debated. Some of our current thoughts:
Why not just let Nostalrius continue the way it was? The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers. And while we’ve looked into the possibility – there is not a clear legal path to protect Blizzard’s IP and grant an operating license to a pirate server.
We explored options for developing classic servers and none could be executed without great difficulty. If we could push a button and all of this would be created, we would. However, there are tremendous operational challenges to integrating classic servers, not to mention the ongoing support of multiple live versions for every aspect of WoW.
So what can we do to capture that nostalgia of when WoW first launched? Over the years we have talked about a “pristine realm”. In essence that would turn off all leveling acceleration including character transfers, heirloom gear, character boosts, Recruit-A-Friend bonuses, WoW Token, and access to cross realm zones, as well as group finder. We aren’t sure whether this version of a clean slate is something that would appeal to the community and it’s still an open topic of discussion.
One other note - we’ve recently been in contact with some of the folks who operated Nostalrius. They obviously care deeply about the game, and we look forward to more conversations with them in the coming weeks.
You, the Blizzard community, are the most dedicated, passionate players out there. We thank you for your constructive thoughts and suggestions. We are listening.
J. Allen Brack
"Pristine Servers" sound like a middleground that nobody should want. Leveling may take longer but in the end you still play retail wod/legion.
Saying legacy servers are too difficult for us, when you just shut down the biggest private server is something else.
I was about to post it. I am expecting an announcement at blizzcon about legacy servers support. "Pristine servers" would only be decent if they removed LFD, LFR, phasing, flying mounts, itemization not tied to an honest player's progression, etc, etc, etc...
In short, that's too much work to try a retail version of what made vanilla, and to a lesser extent, TBC and WoTLK good from a MMORPG perspective.
yeah I dont see the point of a 'pristine' server. It completely misses the mark and I hope they don't actually do it. Either do a legacy one (which I highly doubt they will) or do nothing.
On April 26 2016 20:36 deth2munkies wrote: So I mean basically it's everything I already fucking said.
You will have to remind me, because what i remember you "fucking" said is that vanilla was terrible and we only liked it because nostalgia.
Or do you mean too much work ? Yeah, for a "pristine" version of retail sure, but for legacy, not so much. Even tho, it seems blizzard is already considering it so...
On April 26 2016 20:36 deth2munkies wrote: So I mean basically it's everything I already fucking said.
You will have to remind me, because what i remember you "fucking" said is that vanilla was terrible and we only liked it because nostalgia.
Or do you mean too much work ? Yeah, for a "pristine" version of retail sure, but for legacy, not so much. Even tho, it seems blizzard is already considering it so...
Ehm the pristine version would require very little work. It is simply the latest wow patch with a few things turned off. A legacy server in theory is very little work, fire up the old code and leave it to rot, but an official server carries the Blizzard name and as such will be held to a certain standard, both by the users and Blizzard itself. That is where the work comes in.
Plus the whole argument laid out by Nony earlier still applies.
I don't want no "Pristine servers", I want legacy servers, and I think people who signed that petition have the same opinion. Pristine servers sound like such a shitty middleground.
That being said, I agree with Blizzard that releasing good legacy servers would require some work and would not be as easy as some people make it to be. But then again, there is MONEY to be made here, we don't expect it to be free. Legacy servers is the only reason I would ever renew my sub and I know lots of people are in this case. If they make those legacy servers "progressive" with incremental content patch (mc -> bwl -> AQ etc) they could even retain a lot of those subs.
I am still baffled that they do not have the source code for all patches anymore. This could have been easy...
On April 26 2016 20:36 deth2munkies wrote: So I mean basically it's everything I already fucking said.
You will have to remind me, because what i remember you "fucking" said is that vanilla was terrible and we only liked it because nostalgia.
Or do you mean too much work ? Yeah, for a "pristine" version of retail sure, but for legacy, not so much. Even tho, it seems blizzard is already considering it so...
Ehm the pristine version would require very little work. It is simply the latest wow patch with a few things turned off. A legacy server in theory is very little work, fire up the old code and leave it to rot, but an official server carries the Blizzard name and as such will be held to a certain standard, both by the users and Blizzard itself. That is where the work comes in.
Plus the whole argument laid out by Nony earlier still applies.
I thought the old code was deleted and no longer available?
On April 26 2016 20:36 deth2munkies wrote: So I mean basically it's everything I already fucking said.
You will have to remind me, because what i remember you "fucking" said is that vanilla was terrible and we only liked it because nostalgia.
Or do you mean too much work ? Yeah, for a "pristine" version of retail sure, but for legacy, not so much. Even tho, it seems blizzard is already considering it so...
Ehm the pristine version would require very little work. It is simply the latest wow patch with a few things turned off. A legacy server in theory is very little work, fire up the old code and leave it to rot, but an official server carries the Blizzard name and as such will be held to a certain standard, both by the users and Blizzard itself. That is where the work comes in.
Plus the whole argument laid out by Nony earlier still applies.
I thought the old code was deleted and no longer available?
I believe they said so aswell at some point but I'm not sure I buy that argument. I doubt Blizzard would just throw something like that away. HD space is dirt cheap after all.
as a player who is really glad that wow is not how it was 10 years ago i cant grasp the mindset of people who want vanilla servers. raiding was just mind numbing dumb, even a toddler could do aq40 -_-
it was not fun to farm 8h to get flasks for 4h raids. sure wow nowadays has a whole lot of issues but i am glad its not vanilla kind of issues anymore.
On April 26 2016 20:36 deth2munkies wrote: So I mean basically it's everything I already fucking said.
You will have to remind me, because what i remember you "fucking" said is that vanilla was terrible and we only liked it because nostalgia.
Or do you mean too much work ? Yeah, for a "pristine" version of retail sure, but for legacy, not so much. Even tho, it seems blizzard is already considering it so...
Ehm the pristine version would require very little work. It is simply the latest wow patch with a few things turned off. A legacy server in theory is very little work, fire up the old code and leave it to rot, but an official server carries the Blizzard name and as such will be held to a certain standard, both by the users and Blizzard itself. That is where the work comes in.
Plus the whole argument laid out by Nony earlier still applies.
A meaningful one would take more changes than that. What the dev said in that quote, does very little towards community building and the social aspects that the game require.
Content on WoD is crap, and not because they release little raids, it's because there is not much to do except raiding.
On April 26 2016 20:36 deth2munkies wrote: So I mean basically it's everything I already fucking said.
You will have to remind me, because what i remember you "fucking" said is that vanilla was terrible and we only liked it because nostalgia.
Or do you mean too much work ? Yeah, for a "pristine" version of retail sure, but for legacy, not so much. Even tho, it seems blizzard is already considering it so...
Ehm the pristine version would require very little work. It is simply the latest wow patch with a few things turned off. A legacy server in theory is very little work, fire up the old code and leave it to rot, but an official server carries the Blizzard name and as such will be held to a certain standard, both by the users and Blizzard itself. That is where the work comes in.
Plus the whole argument laid out by Nony earlier still applies.
A meaningful one would take more changes than that. What the dev said in that quote, does very little towards community building and the social aspects that the game require.
Content on WoD is crap, and not because they release little raids, it's because there is not much to do except raiding.
The pristine server as mentioned by Blizzard takes very little work. it is also pointless, which I mentioned earlier aswell.
I say that the pristine version won't take much work, but a meaningful one requires way more changes than that. Then you answer me that the pristine version won't take much work. Yes, i know that, i already said so.
And just to be sure, i am talking about them doing a "legacy" version from their retail, not past expansions.
On April 26 2016 22:49 {ToT}ColmA wrote: as a player who is really glad that wow is not how it was 10 years ago i cant grasp the mindset of people who want vanilla servers. raiding was just mind numbing dumb, even a toddler could do aq40 -_-
it was not fun to farm 8h to get flasks for 4h raids. sure wow nowadays has a whole lot of issues but i am glad its not vanilla kind of issues anymore.
I think most people just want Vanilla for the social/community aspects even if the raiding is boring compared to retail. I said before, Vanilla is probably a worse game, but its a better MMO.
On April 26 2016 23:19 Godwrath wrote: I say that the pristine version won't take much work, but a meaningful one requires way more changes than that. Then you answer me that the pristine version won't take much work. Yes, i know that, i already said so.
And just to be sure, i am talking about them doing a "legacy" version from their retail, not past expansions.
You want a legacy WoD? The latest patch but with all the features you don't like stripped off?
On April 26 2016 22:49 {ToT}ColmA wrote: as a player who is really glad that wow is not how it was 10 years ago i cant grasp the mindset of people who want vanilla servers. raiding was just mind numbing dumb, even a toddler could do aq40 -_-
it was not fun to farm 8h to get flasks for 4h raids. sure wow nowadays has a whole lot of issues but i am glad its not vanilla kind of issues anymore.
We want to play vanilla because it feels like a MMO, not because raiding is better.
Also, we are talking about legacy servers, not only vanilla. I personally prefer TBC. That being said vanilla is infinitely superior to current WoW. Blizzard tricked me into getting WoD for one month after quitting at the start of Cata, but I will never make that mistake again unless they release proper legacy servers, be it vanilla, tbc or wotlk. Current WoW is a single player game, with the occasionnal guild event if you choose to have one.
On April 26 2016 23:19 Godwrath wrote: I say that the pristine version won't take much work, but a meaningful one requires way more changes than that. Then you answer me that the pristine version won't take much work. Yes, i know that, i already said so.
And just to be sure, i am talking about them doing a "legacy" version from their retail, not past expansions.
You want a legacy WoD? The latest patch but with all the features you don't like stripped off?
Yeah... that's never ever going to happen.
Again, I am commenting what the blizzard's dev said, not what i want.
And the "not gonna happen". That's what blizzard is going on with Pristine idea, if they remove phasing and change the loot acquirement, withouth LFD/R, no heirlooms, harder to lvl, harder dungeons... you are pretty much back to vanilla player interdependency and progression.
But if you must ask, thats not what i want since expansion after expansion the world has gotten smaller and smaller, but i could certainly enjoy the more refined game mechanichs on an actual MMORPG game (but only some, because other stuff is awful, like no downtime ever).
On April 26 2016 23:19 Godwrath wrote: I say that the pristine version won't take much work, but a meaningful one requires way more changes than that. Then you answer me that the pristine version won't take much work. Yes, i know that, i already said so.
And just to be sure, i am talking about them doing a "legacy" version from their retail, not past expansions.
You want a legacy WoD? The latest patch but with all the features you don't like stripped off?
Yeah... that's never ever going to happen.
Again, I am commenting what the blizzard's dev said, not what i want.
And the "not gonna happen". That's what blizzard is going on with Pristine idea, if they remove phasing and change the loot acquirement, withouth LFD/R, no heirlooms, harder to lvl, harder dungeons... you are pretty much back to vanilla player interdependency and progression.
But if you must ask, thats not what i want since expansion after expansion the world has gotten smaller and smaller, but i could certainly enjoy the more refined game mechanichs on an actual MMORPG game (but only some, because other stuff is awful, like no downtime ever).
My apologies I missed the mention of group finder in the original post ><.
I am interested tho, what MMORPG mechanics would you be referring to? I agree WoW is missing plenty of things you could be looking for, just interested in what you roughly mean.
On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote: I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy".
Why not just let Nostalrius continue the way it was? The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers. And while we’ve looked into the possibility – there is not a clear legal path to protect Blizzard’s IP and grant an operating license to a pirate server.
Weird legal loopholes would damage their rights over the IP. What they could do though, is to employ the nostalrius guys.
Why not just let Nostalrius continue the way it was? The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers. And while we’ve looked into the possibility – there is not a clear legal path to protect Blizzard’s IP and grant an operating license to a pirate server.
Weird legal loopholes would damage their rights over the IP. What they could do though, is to employ the nostalrius guys.
It's largely a myth that your hold on an IP is that fickle though. Companies give out free software all the time, or they're sloppy about defending it. No court would ever deny that Warcraft is a Blizzard IP just because they let some free-to-play bootleg server run.
Blizzard's press release about protecting IP is a cop out and it's cheap, easy PR.
Yeah just hire them, rent / buy the server and ask the community to run a Blizzard approved server.
Seems kind of weird, to me it's probably one guy high on the ladder which is bitching about IP and all that shit or something. I don't know, it just seems strange to me.
On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote: I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy".
Because such a license would infer a certain level of approval by Blizzard and as such the actions and status of the server would reflect upon Blizzard's reputation.
On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote: I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy".
Why not just let Nostalrius continue the way it was? The honest answer is, failure to protect against intellectual property infringement would damage Blizzard’s rights. This applies to anything that uses WoW’s IP, including unofficial servers. And while we’ve looked into the possibility – there is not a clear legal path to protect Blizzard’s IP and grant an operating license to a pirate server.
Weird legal loopholes would damage their rights over the IP. What they could do though, is to employ the nostalrius guys.
It's largely a myth that your hold on an IP is that fickle though. Companies give out free software all the time, or they're sloppy about defending it. No court would ever deny that Warcraft is a Blizzard IP just because they let some free-to-play bootleg server run.
Blizzard's press release about protecting IP is a cop out and it's cheap, easy PR.
Well I don't really doubt that. The same can be said about them loosing all their legacy source code.
Also, I find it hilarious that the "you think you do but you don't" Blizzard guy (J. Allen Brack) is the one that signed that blue post about legacy servers. + Show Spoiler +
On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote: I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy".
Because such a license would infer a certain level of approval by Blizzard and as such the actions and status of the server would reflect upon Blizzard's reputation.
Yeah that makes sense. Though Blizzard could just establish some ground rules and say "don't do this and do that, or the server gets shut down". Something along those lines.
I really think there's room for compromise here, only Blizzard isn't looking.
I really don't think thats a reasonable solution either. The Warcraft IP is valuable, and just giving it out to let people do whatever they want isnt a realistic idea.
On April 26 2016 23:19 Godwrath wrote: I say that the pristine version won't take much work, but a meaningful one requires way more changes than that. Then you answer me that the pristine version won't take much work. Yes, i know that, i already said so.
And just to be sure, i am talking about them doing a "legacy" version from their retail, not past expansions.
You want a legacy WoD? The latest patch but with all the features you don't like stripped off?
Yeah... that's never ever going to happen.
Again, I am commenting what the blizzard's dev said, not what i want.
And the "not gonna happen". That's what blizzard is going on with Pristine idea, if they remove phasing and change the loot acquirement, withouth LFD/R, no heirlooms, harder to lvl, harder dungeons... you are pretty much back to vanilla player interdependency and progression.
But if you must ask, thats not what i want since expansion after expansion the world has gotten smaller and smaller, but i could certainly enjoy the more refined game mechanichs on an actual MMORPG game (but only some, because other stuff is awful, like no downtime ever).
My apologies I missed the mention of group finder in the original post ><.
I am interested tho, what MMORPG mechanics would you be referring to? I agree WoW is missing plenty of things you could be looking for, just interested in what you roughly mean.
No worries, i think the language barrier is doing plenty here. I am speaking about stuff that vanilla could adopt withouth harming the social aspects of the game. Which is mostly raid/quest/dungeon/class more full fledged mechanichs for the most part. While others are terrible for the social aspects (no downtime for example leads to nonstop execution of instances/quests where you don't get time to chat as it's not efficient).
On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote: I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy".
Because such a license would infer a certain level of approval by Blizzard and as such the actions and status of the server would reflect upon Blizzard's reputation.
Yeah that makes sense. Though Blizzard could just establish some ground rules and say "don't do this and do that, or the server gets shut down". Something along those lines.
I really think there's room for compromise here, only Blizzard isn't looking.
Can it be done? I certainly think it can. But as we discussed many pages ago (again have to point to Nony's excellent post) Blizzard, at its heart, probably doesn't want this to succeed and it trying to find a way to appease people without having to tell them to fuck off.
On April 26 2016 23:55 Incognoto wrote: I'm not sure how they can't just give a license to the pirate servers and just call them "legacy".
Because such a license would infer a certain level of approval by Blizzard and as such the actions and status of the server would reflect upon Blizzard's reputation.
Yeah that makes sense. Though Blizzard could just establish some ground rules and say "don't do this and do that, or the server gets shut down". Something along those lines.
I really think there's room for compromise here, only Blizzard isn't looking.
Can it be done? I certainly think it can. But as we discussed many pages ago (again have to point to Nony's excellent post) Blizzard, at its heart, probably doesn't want this to succeed and it trying to find a way to appease people without having to tell them to fuck off.
Yeah that's probably more realistic. In which case, blizzard suks
No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say).
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say).
Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better".
If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough').
Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say).
Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better".
If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough').
Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players.
This may or may not be the case, but you have zero actual data to support your claim. So all you do is project what You personally feel about Vanilla onto everyone else. You can predict all you want, but all we know is that there is a large amount of people that do ask to play legacy WoW.
Not only out loud, to even think it could be the case is shortsighted if you don't realize how different both games are nowadays.
I am sure there are plenty of people who would enjoy it just for the nostalgia trip and then quit, but it has already be proven that's not the only thing and that it has the power to retain a playerbase decent enough which many actual MMORPGs would hope for. I mean, i was playing wildstar before and after the F2P, and the world never felt so alive as nostalrius lol. And it only has 2 servers (well, 4 after F2P, but they had to merge them again shortly after... and the EU pvp server is a ghost town anyways).
And that was a private server. People tend to use that as an argument that it was because it was "free". They should take a look at MMORPGs retail servers and their pirate counterparts populations to think about that assessment again. Being official has more traction on a MMORPG as you are guaranteed to not lose your characters.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say).
Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better".
If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough').
Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players.
This may or may not be the case, but you have zero actual data to support your claim. So all you do is project what You personally feel about Vanilla onto everyone else. You can predict all you want, but all we know is that there is a large amount of people that do ask to play legacy WoW.
I actually sort of agree with gorsemeth on this one. I think rune scape had a similar problem when rune scape 2 came out. People voiced their complaint about wanting original runescape 1 back. This it was 2 version of game. Few month afterwards, runescape 1 population was pretty Mich dead and most people were in runescape 2. Not saying that wow will definitely follow same path but blizzard need to be careful cause it may cause permanent damage and if what they say about losing the magic code therefore having to redo a lot of work, then it might just end up being a large waste of time that could be spent else where developing content
Let’s put that in perspective. When we planned World of Warcraft, we only expected 1M sold and 500k active. And yet..and yet that was enough to bet the whole company on making WoW. It was the most expensive game Blizzard had ever made, and a huge risk. And yet, we would have been happy with 1M accounts back then. So I don’t understand this talk about 850k account not being worthwhile. That’s bunk. And you know what? With Blizzard officially behind legacy servers, you would see far more than 1M account re-activations. If a relatively unknown private server can reach 850k, then think what putting the Blizzard name behind it could do…far, far more.
As for 150k active, my understanding is that was measured over a 10 day window. The industry standard for measuring active is 30 days. I bet the 30 day number is higher, but even at 150k, during vanilla WoW we only expected around 450k active subscribers, and it would have been a huge success. Nostalrius is not that far off from what would have been a home run for us at the time. Of course, we ended up doing much, much more than that, but I’m talking about what we would have been thrilled with in the beginning and been very profitable.
Blizzard is also owned by activision now though, so what they would have been happy with when WoW launched and what they need to make shareholders happy now are likely completely different.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
Obviously it is a thing, but people DO play private servers, so its a bit ridiculous to say still (and it's not something you want to say).
Yes, some people like and play on vanilla servers but there is also a large group of people who don't play on vanilla servers and think they want to "Because the old game was so much better".
If you put everyone who answers "do you think vanilla was better" with yes on a vanilla server I predict more then half of them will quit in short order as they discover just how bad vanilla was compared to modern gaming. (and yes they may well think WoD is shit, but that doesn't make vanilla better or 'good enough').
Oh and yes I agree it was a completely stupid thing to actually say out loud to their players.
This may or may not be the case, but you have zero actual data to support your claim. So all you do is project what You personally feel about Vanilla onto everyone else. You can predict all you want, but all we know is that there is a large amount of people that do ask to play legacy WoW.
I actually sort of agree with gorsemeth on this one. I think rune scape had a similar problem when rune scape 2 came out. People voiced their complaint about wanting original runescape 1 back. This it was 2 version of game. Few month afterwards, runescape 1 population was pretty Mich dead and most people were in runescape 2. Not saying that wow will definitely follow same path but blizzard need to be careful cause it may cause permanent damage and if what they say about losing the magic code therefore having to redo a lot of work, then it might just end up being a large waste of time that could be spent else where developing content
There was more to it than that.
OS Runescape had growth pains. I can't remember exactly why that was but some things didn't work right so people got sick of it.
Fast forward today and OS Runescape has consistently more players in it than RS 3 does.
Even with all of that WOW has an extraordinarily passionate user base as a lot of the players that want legacy grew up with it and remember the good times they had with it. Most of them are actually able to articulate exactly why this is the case.
Even then... You don't tell people what they want. The devs can think that... But you never say it out loud. People don't like being told what they will and won't like. I think this case in particular is erroneous because of the way WOW has changed since vanilla. It has changed not just in fundamental game play aspects but in community as well.
Also pristine sounds terrible. You'd have to remove so much it would be hilarious and I don't think WOTLK functions without phasing or flying mounts... Both of which need to be gotten rid off to get a Vanilla/TBC feel.
I been reading the reddit topic about mark kern's video and all about this whole shit show. There was a really good comment from a software dev there laying it down just why the fuck it's not feasible for blizzard from a technical standpoint to do this thing (this post).
Still, if it somehow would come to pass that Blizzard made genuine legacy vanilla servers for us to play, on whatever patch in the cycle ever, I don't know or care, I would play that shit. I'd try get couple of my old friends who used to play with me back then to experience it all again, no doubt. And I recall, very well, all the problems the game had, all the QoL changes we'd miss now and all that. Still would play the hell out of it.
But I also realize it's probably never going to happen and I can cope with that just fine. Gonna be here when Legion hits and hope the raiding content is as good as WoD's was. WoD has been shat on for various reasons, but nobody can objectively say the raiding content wasn't top notch.
Also pristine sounds terrible. You'd have to remove so much it would be hilarious and I don't think WOTLK functions without phasing or flying mounts... Both of which need to be gotten rid off to get a Vanilla/TBC feel.
Pristine missed most of the point IMO. Leveling in the 4.0+ world with characters that have been affected by stat squish, 5.0, 6.0 and 7.0 is way beyond unrecognisable compared to classic and TBC leveling.
Without leveling, without old character stats and without old content you don't have 80% of what makes a legacy server tick.
WoD has been shat on for various reasons, but nobody can objectively say the raiding content wasn't top notch.
It definately had its problems that make it not the best WoW expansion for raiding, IMO - WOTLK is higher up for me. Didn't play enough of cata & pandaland to judge those.
Top of the list being rate of designed consumption vs production - there were 2 tiers created for 21 months of raiding, yet it was deliberately set up for you to walk in and kill every boss on launch week - if not on "your" raiding difficulty, then on a difficulty or 2 below because that was the best way to progress. Tier 17 normal gear was way way way better than any pre-raid gear - like hey, come get your free 1.5x damage boost. Tier 18 normal gear was better than mixed t17 heroic/mythic gear.
For the record, Mark Kern is the guy who ran Red 5 studios, who were responsible for the disaster that was Firefall. A game I was hyped for, tried to get others hyped for, but crumbled under its own ambition. Chief among failures was the idea that they could integrate feedback in very early in the dev cycle and change the nature of the game based on feedback. The lesson they learned: The loudest voices are always the negative ones and they have no idea what the fuck they want.
I just kind of wish that he took that lesson to heart before saying this stuff.
On April 27 2016 10:07 daemir wrote: I been reading the reddit topic about mark kern's video and all about this whole shit show. There was a really good comment from a software dev there laying it down just why the fuck it's not feasible for blizzard from a technical standpoint to do this thing (this post).
That's pretty much what I've been saying since the beginning: tl;dr, you can't integrate vanilla stuff with Battle.net without massive cost and it HAS to be done through Battle.net.
I agree that Pristine won't fix levelling, at least it probably won't. It's not going to change the fact that WoW isn't a game about levelling anymore. However, I'm very interested it for the end-game feel. I think it would feel more like Wrath. Wrath's levelling was super faceroll but it still had an enjoyable community and end-game.
Removing LFR/LFG and cross realm is like 60% of the problem for me. the insane gear resets is probably like 30% of it, but LFR/LFG gone fixes a part of that.
i've watched kungen's stream here and there the past few days. my question would be how would it be fun when u know every single fight already? and that's one of his main complaints about raiding nowadays is that there is a book telling u what the spells do, but that's exactly what would happen with vanilla wow, except not only do u know the spells u also already know the strats without even doing the fight once.
On April 27 2016 11:11 zev318 wrote: i've watched kungen's stream here and there the past few days. my question would be how would it be fun when u know every single fight already? and that's one of his main complaints about raiding nowadays is that there is a book telling u what the spells do, but that's exactly what would happen with vanilla wow, except not only do u know the spells u also already know the strats without even doing the fight once.
Vanilla & TBC were much less about raiding than current expansions. Something like 90% of players didn't even raid in TBC and far less raided in Vanilla - that's not what made those expansions great, it was just one piece of the cake.
For those players who already killed everything 30 times, it's less fun. I imagine that there's a huge market for raiders that want to experience older content that they did not experience at the time. For those that don't want to raid, there's a lot.
Less than 1% of the WoW population entered Naxx in Vanilla. I only did it on the PTR myself, the attunement was a nightmare if you weren't already exalted with AD (I was Revered) and involved a ton of gold and farming. Not to mention you couldn't do the fights without AQ gear, which you couldn't really do well in without BWL gear which you really needed MC gear for, all of which you had to get attuned to with varying degrees of difficulty.
Attunments weren't that hard? IIRC mainly Onyxia for Alliance and having the Cloaks from Onyxia on everyone to fight Nefarian were real bitches. The MC one was also pretty long (but not hard) if i remember correctly.
But if you count the necessary gear to get to the next tier, then yes, it was a grind.
What people often forget... They probably entered MC the first time before Dire Maul was out, with Dire Maul came tons of decent blue caster gear that made gearing up for raiding WAY easier and faster.
On April 27 2016 11:11 zev318 wrote: i've watched kungen's stream here and there the past few days. my question would be how would it be fun when u know every single fight already? and that's one of his main complaints about raiding nowadays is that there is a book telling u what the spells do, but that's exactly what would happen with vanilla wow, except not only do u know the spells u also already know the strats without even doing the fight once.
I played hundreds of hours on nost with 2 60lv chars , 2 epic mounts etc good shit. The thing that kept me in the game was people in world. Random fight clubs in searing gorge with 10 full epic guys gathering around in circle, some horde, some alliance, and then we fight 1v1 in turns.
My friend encountered some RP guys in inn and they started RP smack talking his elf. They dueled him and after he won in duel they gave him beer and pats.
I had so many amazing friends and people around me in addition to all kinds of little events that I wouldn't have needed really FUN outdoor pvp that I did most of my time. My screenshot folder is full of fun events and gags meanwhile my retail folder from cata to wod is very shallow.
Although I agree on pve. We oneshot everything in MC and I realized the game won't be much of challenge until ~couple of BWL bosses and naxx. e: I just remembered that in normal UBRS pugs you do fun things like using kidney on thrash instead of evi for dps whoring because you know it makes a difference for healers/tanks. A lot of your utility abilities make difference in dungeons. Heck, you use hunter to flare scholomance invis ghosts and we are paranoid/careful when progressing through the dungeon.
On April 27 2016 14:30 Velr wrote: Attunments weren't that hard? IIRC mainly Onyxia for Alliance and having the Cloaks from Onyxia on everyone to fight Nefarian were real bitches. The MC one was also pretty long (but not hard) if i remember correctly.
But if you count the necessary gear to get to the next tier, then yes, it was a grind.
What people often forget... They probably entered MC the first time before Dire Maul was out, with Dire Maul came tons of decent blue caster gear that made gearing up for raiding WAY easier and faster.
Attunement for MC was pretty easy, you just had to reach the MC entrance inside of BRD and touch a rock. BRD was a large dungeon but you could of gotten a warlock to port you there so it not too awful. There were also ways to by pass mobs and glitch them out etc etc.
On April 27 2016 14:30 Velr wrote: What people often forget... They probably entered MC the first time before Dire Maul was out, with Dire Maul came tons of decent blue caster gear that made gearing up for raiding WAY easier and faster.
Yeah, DM had really good blue gear. There's also the fact that the blue sets (as well as epics) were really bad initially until blizzard changed the useless stats for better ones. It took some time for people to realize what kind of gear is actually good for their class... in 2005 there weren't that many useful guides and sites available for optimizing gear and dps.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
it's a thing in marketing, but saying it to a customer's face is basically referring to them as a cash machine to be manipulated, not as a living animal that just wants to play vanilla WoW.. i mean they were at blizzcon for god's sake, the "center" of blizzard culture, and he basically said "you think a but you really want b because that's what our marketing team says." imo it's super rude and indicative of modern blizzard corporate culture.
On April 27 2016 14:30 Velr wrote: Attunments weren't that hard? IIRC mainly Onyxia for Alliance and having the Cloaks from Onyxia on everyone to fight Nefarian were real bitches. The MC one was also pretty long (but not hard) if i remember correctly.
But if you count the necessary gear to get to the next tier, then yes, it was a grind.
What people often forget... They probably entered MC the first time before Dire Maul was out, with Dire Maul came tons of decent blue caster gear that made gearing up for raiding WAY easier and faster.
Attunement was just annoying because of the way groups were formed, there's a considerable buildup time in getting the number of people together then you had to actually travel there.
On April 27 2016 14:30 Velr wrote: What people often forget... They probably entered MC the first time before Dire Maul was out, with Dire Maul came tons of decent blue caster gear that made gearing up for raiding WAY easier and faster.
Yeah, DM had really good blue gear. There's also the fact that the blue sets (as well as epics) were really bad initially until blizzard changed the useless stats for better ones. It took some time for people to realize what kind of gear is actually good for their class... in 2005 there weren't that many useful guides and sites available for optimizing gear and dps.
I remember at release people wondering why i was stacking shadow power (even got a +20 shadow power wand for a few golds at the AH, poor fucker), while they were going full intellect.
But yeah, at the point most vanilla servers are released patchwise, blue gear is useful.
And the complaints about attunements... like seriously, they weren't really hard lol. They required you to group and meet people yeah, big deal, go play a single player game instead. Completion of attunement quests requires some commitment, which is something that's only good for a raiding guild. In the only case it is not, it's when the population of the game is shit, and the reason that happens is not because attunements are hard, but because there is no content outside of raiding for the players.
I'm not complaining about attunements, it's not hard just one more thing you have to do on top of gearing up over the course of several months in each raid instance before progressing on to the next. I kind of liked that in the original game with the original release schedule, but if they drop a Vanilla server that has Naxx and AQ already in the game, nobody's gonna see those fucking dungeons for a year. By then, the vast majority of players will have quit.
And that's also assuming that they 1 shot every boss they have the gear for, farm the nature/fire/frost resist gear while they're raiding, and aren't bored stiff fighting bosses with vastly simpler mechanics, vastly simpler rotations (in most cases), and knowing exactly what every boss can do rather than having to find out for themselves.
I mean remember when a boss having a Mortal Strike was a big fucking deal? Now every boss in the game has some sort of tank swap mechanic and/or big hit that requires mitigation. Not to mention that even on the hardest bosses in Vanilla, you could have 3-4 guys fucking around and still win because they were 40 mans, so it's not even a guarantee of any kind of skill that you killed KT anymore because you had a guide and probably got carried. The stuff that made Vanilla raiding cool is not coming back just because of a Vanilla server.
Vanilla attunements were mostly fine (and no, not everyone needed an Onyxia cloak, only the tanks need it. Everyone else can hide in the Alcove with Nefarions throne to avoid getting hit when he lands). MC was cheesed by swimming from Lord Incendius, BWL was just doing UBRS and Onyxia was mostly long, finding a group to do the prison block in BRD wasnt to hard.
The problematic attunement was Tier 6 in TBC where it required tier 5 end bosses which meant guilds got canalized for members much more then before. No one wanted to do KT and Vashj for the 30th time for some trial who would probably fail within a week.
On April 27 2016 22:35 deth2munkies wrote: I'm not complaining about attunements, it's not hard just one more thing you have to do on top of gearing up over the course of several months in each raid instance before progressing on to the next. I kind of liked that in the original game with the original release schedule, but if they drop a Vanilla server that has Naxx and AQ already in the game, nobody's gonna see those fucking dungeons for a year. By then, the vast majority of players will have quit.
I would have to disagree. We were all terrible back then and for the most part didn't know what we were doing. Drop a full end of vanilla server and you will have people clearing Zul'Gurub/AQ20 in blues, MC is a joke and BWL will be dead as soon as 3 tanks get an Onyxia cloak (think it was 3 for Ebonroc). AQ 40 will take a bit more time, mostly to farm nature resist for Huhuru, the Twins require some actually gear because of the fight length and I guess C'thun will still be hard. Naxx, the major roadblock will be gearing enough tanks for 4 horsemen, just like it was back in the day.
On April 27 2016 22:35 deth2munkies wrote: I'm not complaining about attunements, it's not hard just one more thing you have to do on top of gearing up over the course of several months in each raid instance before progressing on to the next. I kind of liked that in the original game with the original release schedule, but if they drop a Vanilla server that has Naxx and AQ already in the game, nobody's gonna see those fucking dungeons for a year. By then, the vast majority of players will have.
And i don't understand that fear, as legacy server's raids had been released following the same path they did in the past. Gearing also for MC was not needed for the most part, you could start with greens if you wanted. The only ones that always required some gear were the tanks, but gearing them has always been more about guild effort.
On April 27 2016 01:26 SheaR619 wrote: No idea why they think Pristine server would work. It almost feels like they have no idea what "community" is. The current WoW is not centered on community or social aspect and is more single player base. Eventually when they hit the more modern WoW expansion, it will be like them trying to play an MMO in a single player game. It just won't work and will only split community and do more damage or just simply be a waste of time. What people want is to play an MMO in a actual MMO.
If blizzard decides to do this, they better do it well because it might leave permanent damage.
They might be able to pull a Pristine Server on TBC(maybe removing flying?) and WOTLK (maybe not due to phasing) because those are are not affected by the Cataclysm revamp. If they were to tweak it a little these might work and give the Vanilla feels of community without being Vanilla. An actual vanilla would actually be better since many people were not able to truly experience it and would bring more to the table though.
Remember this is coming from J. Allen "You Think You Want It, But You Don't" Brack.
This is about as sincere as BP apologizing for their mess in the Gulf of Mexico.
"You think you want it but you don't" is actually a thing with consumers believe it or not. People often think of idea's they would like only to discover they wanted something else after it is implemented.
Not to say Blizzard hasn't made plenty of mistakes and did things wrong. But consumers thinking A while actually wanting B is very much a thing.
it's a thing in marketing, but saying it to a customer's face is basically referring to them as a cash machine to be manipulated, not as a living animal that just wants to play vanilla WoW.. i mean they were at blizzcon for god's sake, the "center" of blizzard culture, and he basically said "you think a but you really want b because that's what our marketing team says." imo it's super rude and indicative of modern blizzard corporate culture.
Blizzard have had their heads stuck up their asses for some time now. Their hubris is astronomically huge. But so far no other companies have been able to take them down a peg so Blizzard fans would have to put up with their arrogance for quite some time still.
On April 27 2016 22:35 deth2munkies wrote: I'm not complaining about attunements, it's not hard just one more thing you have to do on top of gearing up over the course of several months in each raid instance before progressing on to the next. I kind of liked that in the original game with the original release schedule, but if they drop a Vanilla server that has Naxx and AQ already in the game, nobody's gonna see those fucking dungeons for a year. By then, the vast majority of players will have quit.
I would have to disagree. We were all terrible back then and for the most part didn't know what we were doing. Drop a full end of vanilla server and you will have people clearing Zul'Gurub/AQ20 in blues, MC is a joke and BWL will be dead as soon as 3 tanks get an Onyxia cloak (think it was 3 for Ebonroc). AQ 40 will take a bit more time, mostly to farm nature resist for Huhuru, the Twins require some actually gear because of the fight length and I guess C'thun will still be hard. Naxx, the major roadblock will be gearing enough tanks for 4 horsemen, just like it was back in the day.
Pretty much. Some people dont understand what a joke vanilla raid content is for today's players.
In general I dont understand the outrage about Blizzard enforcing their IP rights. I actually think they are quite lenient in how they deal with private WoW servers.
On April 28 2016 11:18 Heyjoray wrote: Can this massive bullshit around Nostalgia be called a Mass Psychosis? I havent seen something like that in a while
What do you mean? If people are playing and enjoying it more than the current version of WoW what is wrong with it exactly?
They are not commercial. I would be surprised if they make more than needed to fund the servers. However, they are currently certainly getting enough publicity that they are at high risk of being shut down. The servers are in Sweden, the people running it are from Czechia. Both countries are unlikely to be of much protection if Blizzard chooses to take action.
That being said, playing there is actually quite nice, feels a lot like it felt back in Vanilla. Very social experience, although the trolling on the world chat is a little out of hand. The starting areas are crazy overpopulated. I doubt I'll spend much time there though. I cancelled my WoW-Subscription some time during WOTLK due to the massive time sink involved in playing the game. The most enjoyable time for me was probably the beginnings of Burning Crusade. The raid dungeons were well designed, the farming involved wasn't quite as bad as in Vanilla and you only needed 25 people to show up for the raid. The heroic dungeons were also a lot of fun and actually forced you to used crowd control (at least before they were all nerfed into oblivion).
Heres a lesson for everyone, don't reply to youtube comments about this subject
Made a comment on a video and a guy is like "You haven't played Vanilla and yet you talk about it", that struck a nerve and so I replied with a giant wall of text with everything that I know and have experienced from Vanilla beta to WoD and also said that he must have a giant catalog of games that I have and have not played for a random person on the internet that he doesn't even know. The guy is simply like "Point taken."
On April 28 2016 21:02 Incognoto wrote: Why would those servers remain up if the other servers got closed by Blizzard?
Because they're not going to send a takedown letter unless they have enough to win a lawsuit, and that requires a lot of time and research, which they're not going to bother with until it gets too big.
On April 28 2016 21:02 Disengaged wrote: Heres a lesson for everyone, don't reply to youtube comments about this subject
Made a comment on a video and a guy is like "You haven't played Vanilla and yet you talk about it", that struck a nerve and so I replied with a giant wall of text with everything that I know and have experienced from Vanilla beta to WoD and also said that he must have a giant catalog of games that I have and have not played for a random person on the internet that he doesn't even know. The guy is simply like "Point taken."
On April 28 2016 21:02 Incognoto wrote: Why would those servers remain up if the other servers got closed by Blizzard?
Because they're not going to send a takedown letter unless they have enough to win a lawsuit, and that requires a lot of time and research, which they're not going to bother with until it gets too big.
What? A lot of research to do what? Someone is running a vanilla wow server, easy enough to see. Find the company that is hosting it, easy to do. Send Cease and Desist letter. Boom, done.
Now Blizzard doesn't bother with it for Joey and his 5 friends but if a server gets big enough to show up on Blizzards radar then they will have it shut down. It doesn't take months of 'research' to somehow build a case that a private wow server is infringing on IP lol.
On April 28 2016 21:02 Incognoto wrote: Why would those servers remain up if the other servers got closed by Blizzard?
Because they're not going to send a takedown letter unless they have enough to win a lawsuit, and that requires a lot of time and research, which they're not going to bother with until it gets too big.
What? A lot of research to do what? Someone is running a vanilla wow server, easy enough to see. Find the company that is hosting it, easy to do. Send Cease and Desist letter. Boom, done.
Now Blizzard doesn't bother with it for Joey and his 5 friends but if a server gets big enough to show up on Blizzards radar then they will have it shut down. It doesn't take months of 'research' to somehow build a case that a private wow server is infringing on IP lol.
They have to get their hands on the code for the server, separate each infringing part, and find the actual people running it with a lot more evidence than just an IP address. If you'll recall, the one private server case that went the distance to appellate review was solely about the Warden software because that was the only actually protected piece of IP they could prove was infringed. Pure computer code itself is not protectable by copyright or patent on its own.*
It's also worth it to note that in order to send a DMCA takedown notice, they have to know exactly which IP is being infringed and be able to articulate that and exactly where it is on the service provider's servers. Which can be more difficult than you might think with regards to stuff like private servers.
The reason why Youtube and Twitch stuff gets censored isn't because of DMCA takedown notices, it's because of individual content ID bots that are part of those sites' terms of service. It has nothing to do with the actual DMCA.,
Code is pretty much never copyrightable, but some software patents have been issued for certain processes, and they're controversial as hell because they can be mightily abused and stunt the growth of the industry because suddenly no one can use an efficient way to sort things (for example).
Pretty sure they already into them. Kronos is fairly big after most refugees from nostalrius migrated there. For the past weeks there has been crazy long queues to play and everything is filled. There is no place in the world you can go where you won't find people for the most part.
And probably, also a lot of people who joined thanks to the streissand effect.
wonder when Kronos will close down. With the influx of people from Nos it is probably already drawing attention from the dark lords. Will blizzard take another hit from PR? Or will they allow people to play vanilla? Pretty interesting how these will turn up
If I was blizzard, I would wait to close them until legion released or wait till it does releases and then advocate for their closure. Many vanilla server has always been closed down for ages, it wasn't until WoD put everyone on tilt that people started acting
Notsalrious has a new server called the rebirth. Haven't thought about playing WoW since wrath but my friends got me to play and I'm enjoying vanilla so far.
My first max level char was at 70 so I missed out on most of vanilla. One of my friends is younger and complains that you have to run everywhere, we tried to explain that's part of the fun but he didn't get it lol.
On April 27 2016 22:35 deth2munkies wrote: I'm not complaining about attunements, it's not hard just one more thing you have to do on top of gearing up over the course of several months in each raid instance before progressing on to the next. I kind of liked that in the original game with the original release schedule, but if they drop a Vanilla server that has Naxx and AQ already in the game, nobody's gonna see those fucking dungeons for a year. By then, the vast majority of players will have quit.
I would have to disagree. We were all terrible back then and for the most part didn't know what we were doing. Drop a full end of vanilla server and you will have people clearing Zul'Gurub/AQ20 in blues, MC is a joke and BWL will be dead as soon as 3 tanks get an Onyxia cloak (think it was 3 for Ebonroc). AQ 40 will take a bit more time, mostly to farm nature resist for Huhuru, the Twins require some actually gear because of the fight length and I guess C'thun will still be hard. Naxx, the major roadblock will be gearing enough tanks for 4 horsemen, just like it was back in the day.
This is very true. I think that the first group that cleared it on Nostralius without a single wipe. It was puggable in a few weeks of release.
4 horsemen wouldnt be as hard because u know about it while ur farming BWL. That and people not know about the safe spot now.
On April 29 2016 11:57 whuderE wrote: Notsalrious has a new server called the rebirth. Haven't thought about playing WoW since wrath but my friends got me to play and I'm enjoying vanilla so far.
My first max level char was at 70 so I missed out on most of vanilla. One of my friends is younger and complains that you have to run everywhere, we tried to explain that's part of the fun but he didn't get it lol.
Now if only I can talk him in to EQ1
Tell him about waiting 30 minutes in a boat to reach destination. He will be thrilled from what you are telling xD.
I do like the idea of a more "hardcore" WoW (which Pristine imo sounds like) however I'm not sure what that has to do with Vanilla WoW at all.
There are people (just like there are SC: BW players that won't settle for SC2 no matter what SC2 incorporates from BW) that wants to play the original WoW. It's going to be near impossible for them to accept anything other than Vanilla WoW.
But I'd love to hear some ideas for a Pristine server more than "turn XP accelaration off, no flying mounts".
The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
Blizzard is very much aware of what people want. They also know they will never give them that. So instead they think about something they can deliver and that people might settle for.
On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
Blizzard is very much aware of what people want. They also know they will never give them that. So instead they think about something they can deliver and that people might settle for.
Well the fact that blizzard actually believe their compromise is a reasonable request /alternative is quiet funny. Either they are treating their customers like idiots or they are so blind that they can not see how far their game has deviated from their original product that pristine realm would never work.
The more work they put into pristine realm may cause delay on some content for new expansion which would piss the other people off. Considering how bad blizzards are at doing this already, I don't think pristine realm will ever happen. Best case is to take in Nos imo and add small fee. Less work for everyone and everyone benefit. May have to accept not being able to incorporate it into BNET2.0. Honestly don't see how this will hurt anyone in the end.
Hmm well they say they've been considering pristine servers for years. I'm sure as each new convenience or shortcut was introduced to the game, there were devs who resisted. For EQ players, vanilla WoW itself felt like a game that introduced a ton of shortcuts and conveniences. I'm sure there were devs who resisted certain things in vanilla. Shortening recovery time between battles was a good shortcut, but removing exp loss from death and not having to recover your corpse to regain your equipment? WoW is just a repair bill. Not hours of grinding exp lost, not any trouble recovering equipment. Those things built a ton of community, like trying to recruit help to recover corpses or find a cleric to res you (gives you some of the exp you lost back). Regular mobs were closer in strength to a WoW elite mob than a WoW regular mob, so most people needed to group to get decent rates of exp gain. Traveling was difficult and dangerous, not just time-consuming.
I'm sure at some point very early on someone said "let's have a different kind of server to satisfy a different kind of player" and it just never got implemented. And now with the popularity of vanilla WoW with the petition and everything, it's only natural for them to reassess the idea. I think they should take it a step further and talk about tweaking stats to make combat more difficult and consider adding things like exp loss for deaths, removing flight paths, removing paths where no mobs wander, etc. If you want your exp back, find a priest to res you. If you want to travel fast, find a warlock to summon you or a mage to port you. If you want to travel by foot safely, find a higher level to escort you. These things build community.
I think it'd be hilarious if the WoW devs just said fuck it, we're gonna make a server rule set more difficult than you even imagined. You already played vanilla, probably multiple times now, so we're gonna give you hard mode WoW.
Anyway, it's not like their response to the Nostalrius petition is pristine servers exactly. Pristine servers is an old idea that they're reassessing. And it's the community who wants the dev team to communicate even when they don't have any good solutions to offer, so it's unreasonable or unfair for the community to come down so harshly when the dev team agrees to let them in on their private meetings. I mean yeah, give them feedback, but don't hold bad ideas against them. Every successful enterprise was preceded by bad ideas and failures.
On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
Blizzard is very much aware of what people want. They also know they will never give them that. So instead they think about something they can deliver and that people might settle for.
Either they are treating their customers like idiots or they are so blind that they can not see how far their game has deviated from their original product that pristine realm would never work.
With Blizzard it's the combination of those 2 plus an ego the size of the milky way.
On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
What's so bad about a Pristine server? That's something I would play on.
I really don't get the hate on Pristine servers. I understand that the people who want legacy servers aren't going to settle for pristine servers (ultimately its not the game they want) , but pristine servers themselves sound awesome.
If Blizzard made old school servers, where you can transfer your character once you are done, I'd be so happy! I started playing in Pandaria, and want to check out how the older expansions were. It would be nice if once you get max level in one expansion, you can move your character to a server with the next expansion, until finally you move it to retail.
On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
What's so bad about a Pristine server? That's something I would play on.
I really don't get the hate on Pristine servers. I understand that the people who want legacy servers aren't going to settle for pristine servers (ultimately its not the game they want) , but pristine servers themselves sound awesome.
The whole philosophy behind them is to promote community and capture the "nostalgia" again by making it harder to level and recapture the feeling of playing an MMO again by making the world feel alive. The problem is that it will obviously fail. Every expansion, they been pushing for more single player play and less player to player interaction. It has been 6 expansion so even if you remove all these stuff and try to create the feel, the world does not support it because it has been too heavily balance around LFR and no group play etc etc. The idea behind it is good but ultimately it is a lazy option and unless they actually put A LOT of work into it, then it won't work. But if they do put work into it, it will delay content on current expansion which will piss off the other people since blizzard has already been struggling with releasing content. They themselves said that they offered this alternative because the other alternative can not be reach without great "difficulty" meaning it is too much work.
Examples: Leveling up in a Cataclysm world does not promote group play like Vanilla because the world is really easy. You will just steam roll everything and multi pull without fear of actually dying so you will never need to play with other people. Not to mention you having access to powerful ability early now that makes thing even easier. Eventually when you reach max level, you will still be stuck in a garrison so it fixes nothing. Same thing will happen in legion, people will just chill in class halls.
Look, if they do ever create a pristine server or whatever the hell, one thing it definitely needs is to not be crossrealm in any sense. If there is a groupfinder, it's gotta be just that pristine server. That way you kind of force a community. Even if it's a WoD server, you still have to run mythics every week for Valor, so you gotta eventually meet some people.
On April 30 2016 07:25 Arnstein wrote: If Blizzard made old school servers, where you can transfer your character once you are done, I'd be so happy! I started playing in Pandaria, and want to check out how the older expansions were. It would be nice if once you get max level in one expansion, you can move your character to a server with the next expansion, until finally you move it to retail.
This would be the ultimate best-case scenario. I think Blizz is capable of doing this.
It shouldn't have a group finder. We already had seen that if the function is there on any game withouth crossrealm functionality, people won't get out of the capitals if they can queue up.
On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
What's so bad about a Pristine server? That's something I would play on.
I really don't get the hate on Pristine servers. I understand that the people who want legacy servers aren't going to settle for pristine servers (ultimately its not the game they want) , but pristine servers themselves sound awesome.
The whole philosophy behind them is to promote community and capture the "nostalgia" again by making it harder to level and recapture the feeling of playing an MMO again by making the world feel alive. The problem is that it will obviously fail. Every expansion, they been pushing for more single player play and less player to player interaction. It has been 6 expansion so even if you remove all these stuff and try to create the feel, the world does not support it because it has been too heavily balance around LFR and no group play etc etc. The idea behind it is good but ultimately it is a lazy option and unless they actually put A LOT of work into it, then it won't work. But if they do put work into it, it will delay content on current expansion which will piss off the other people since blizzard has already been struggling with releasing content. They themselves said that they offered this alternative because the other alternative can not be reach without great "difficulty" meaning it is too much work.
Examples: Leveling up in a Cataclysm world does not promote group play like Vanilla because the world is really easy. You will just steam roll everything and multi pull without fear of actually dying so you will never need to play with other people. Not to mention you having access to powerful ability early now that makes thing even easier. Eventually when you reach max level, you will still be stuck in a garrison so it fixes nothing. Same thing will happen in legion, people will just chill in class halls.
Except pristine servers inherently destroy the most lucrative reason why people stay in their garrisons.... you can queue up for anything and everything from right there. If that shit is destroyed, then you'd have to actually do something to progress your character.
I don't really care for a hard levelling experience, but for end-game a server w/o matchmaking, server transfers, wow tokens sounds like a dream to me.
Honestly, the real reason why it won't work is because WoWhead, Icyveins, and a billion other sites exist. The part that mad Vanilla so capitvating was that there was no real (Thottbot and Allakhazam were very limited) "strategy guide" that told you everything you needed to know. No dungeon journal, no map that tells you exactly where quest items are, nothing. It was all exploration and trial and error.
Even if they released a "pristine" or "vanilla" server, we already know how to play our classes, we know where everything is, we know the fastest ways to level, we know how to optimize getting gold, we know which bosses drop which items, and we know every single raid boss like the back of our hands. Even if we didn't know any of those things, we could look them up in 2 seconds. It basically just becomes the same grind we're used to with modern WoW, but 100x more inconvenient.
While bringing back server communities is a great fucking thing that I'd absolutely love, it won't make the game new, fun, or interesting again.
You have access to that information today. People still play vanilla.
Hell, i knew how to play my class when i was already lvl 40. Sm/Ruin. Many of you didn't have a clue and was your first MMORPG, but for others, it wasn't. And plenty of the people who raided are those who actually miss the community culture.
Dude doing quests in vanilla was always easy to figure out. Read the damn quest or just eyeball over it looking for the classic keywords (creatures names, direction, locations). The difference is mostly in downtime and how many you can pull.
It certainly will make the game more interesting than the autist shithole it is right now tho. I don't disagree from a purely gameplay perspective, but that's overrated in MMORPGs.
doing quests in vanilla is actually very hard imo.
especially in a open pvp world, you always had to look over your back everytime you sat down to drink/eat every couple mobs. im speaking from current experience as Im on Kronos right now.
hell even back then i had a ele shammy that was geared in champion pvp set and I still had a hard time killing mobs in silithus and EPL/WPL.
That goes with downtime or how many you can pull, if mobs are retail levels of easy you really don't care about getting attacked when you have pulled.
Yeah, you have to be checking your back most of the time, but questing intrinsically isn't hard, it's that the contested PvP zones actually do work as intended in regards to content generation and the thrilling atmosphere.
On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote: The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want.
What's so bad about a Pristine server? That's something I would play on.
I really don't get the hate on Pristine servers. I understand that the people who want legacy servers aren't going to settle for pristine servers (ultimately its not the game they want) , but pristine servers themselves sound awesome.
The whole philosophy behind them is to promote community and capture the "nostalgia" again by making it harder to level and recapture the feeling of playing an MMO again by making the world feel alive. The problem is that it will obviously fail. Every expansion, they been pushing for more single player play and less player to player interaction. It has been 6 expansion so even if you remove all these stuff and try to create the feel, the world does not support it because it has been too heavily balance around LFR and no group play etc etc. The idea behind it is good but ultimately it is a lazy option and unless they actually put A LOT of work into it, then it won't work. But if they do put work into it, it will delay content on current expansion which will piss off the other people since blizzard has already been struggling with releasing content. They themselves said that they offered this alternative because the other alternative can not be reach without great "difficulty" meaning it is too much work.
Examples: Leveling up in a Cataclysm world does not promote group play like Vanilla because the world is really easy. You will just steam roll everything and multi pull without fear of actually dying so you will never need to play with other people. Not to mention you having access to powerful ability early now that makes thing even easier. Eventually when you reach max level, you will still be stuck in a garrison so it fixes nothing. Same thing will happen in legion, people will just chill in class halls.
Except pristine servers inherently destroy the most lucrative reason why people stay in their garrisons.... you can queue up for anything and everything from right there. If that shit is destroyed, then you'd have to actually do something to progress your character.
I don't really care for a hard levelling experience, but for end-game a server w/o matchmaking, server transfers, wow tokens sounds like a dream to me.
Don't think harder leveling is the main issue, it is the fact that harder leveling promoted you to communicate with other players to help each other therefore forming community. Although removing LFR helps a lot, since it pushes people to go into guild, there are still many things that is holding it back. The game itself would not promote any character interaction beside guild since doing dungeon is the only way to progress. The world will still feel empty.
The point of this is that Pristine Realm is to be the alternative to Vanilla Realm. They are suppose to recapture the nostalgia and Vanilla feels without having to remake the game because apparently it is too much work. Although it may fit what you want perfectly, it completely miss the goal it was trying to fulfill. It can work but it require ALOT of work, more then just removing those stuff. Which is why it is largely viewed a failure.
EDIT: Apparently some news regarding Blizzard and Nostalrius is suppose to surface soon according to Nostalrius tweet. Perhaps something might actually come out of this.
I'm not saying that's not true, but it's not really the biggest problem to me.
BC and Wrath levelling was super easy compared to Vanilla. Most of my memories come from organizing raids and guilds to get my character progression done. Being out in the world, needing to do stuff, is more important than the aggro radius on mobs. A purposeful world above all, and doing stuff thats not navigating through menus is how you get a world, not NECESSARILY harder levelling.
I don't disagree with that, to an extent. In my opinion WoW was more succesful than EQ2 because the leveling part was soloable at the time, managing to get wide range of people who didn't play MMORPGs to get hooked up, while keeping content that required you to group when you leveled up and more or less, cooperate (ie, CC).
I would have loved to see stats on group quest completion in vanilla. My gut tells me the vast majority of players simply skipped quests they could not complete alone.
On May 03 2016 00:24 Gorsameth wrote: I would have loved to see stats on group quest completion in vanilla. My gut tells me the vast majority of players simply skipped quests they could not complete alone.
I mean, that's probably why they were nerfed to begin with. You had a bunch of lowbies late to the part who leveled in Vanilla content in 2006-2008 who never did the elite group quests because there was hardly anyone in that zone, or it was really time consuming to wait for someone to come across the zone once they did have a party.
The only group quests that I will go out of my way to get a party with, even wait if I have to are the super lucrative Ring of Blood type quests.
On May 01 2016 13:07 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, the real reason why it won't work is because WoWhead, Icyveins, and a billion other sites exist. The part that mad Vanilla so capitvating was that there was no real (Thottbot and Allakhazam were very limited) "strategy guide" that told you everything you needed to know. No dungeon journal, no map that tells you exactly where quest items are, nothing. It was all exploration and trial and error.
Even if they released a "pristine" or "vanilla" server, we already know how to play our classes, we know where everything is, we know the fastest ways to level, we know how to optimize getting gold, we know which bosses drop which items, and we know every single raid boss like the back of our hands. Even if we didn't know any of those things, we could look them up in 2 seconds. It basically just becomes the same grind we're used to with modern WoW, but 100x more inconvenient.
While bringing back server communities is a great fucking thing that I'd absolutely love, it won't make the game new, fun, or interesting again.
Maybe very early on, but Allakhazam was very popular at some point and it was basically like a more light-weight version of wowhead. People did use forums way more back then though, I remember how realm forums were very popular and that added to the 'community' feeling as a whole.
And while part of the charm of vanilla was that everything was new and people were very bad at the game, that's not the whole point of vanilla -- really.
Look at EQ1, people playing legacy servers today(and these are hardcore fans) and it's basically the same as the old days(though EQ1's legacy servers did add some nifty features which deviate a bit from the vanilla game).
On May 01 2016 13:07 deth2munkies wrote: Honestly, the real reason why it won't work is because WoWhead, Icyveins, and a billion other sites exist. The part that mad Vanilla so capitvating was that there was no real (Thottbot and Allakhazam were very limited) "strategy guide" that told you everything you needed to know. No dungeon journal, no map that tells you exactly where quest items are, nothing. It was all exploration and trial and error.
Even if they released a "pristine" or "vanilla" server, we already know how to play our classes, we know where everything is, we know the fastest ways to level, we know how to optimize getting gold, we know which bosses drop which items, and we know every single raid boss like the back of our hands. Even if we didn't know any of those things, we could look them up in 2 seconds. It basically just becomes the same grind we're used to with modern WoW, but 100x more inconvenient.
While bringing back server communities is a great fucking thing that I'd absolutely love, it won't make the game new, fun, or interesting again.
Maybe very early on, but Allakhazam was very popular at some point and it was basically like a more light-weight version of wowhead. People did use forums way more back then though, I remember how realm forums were very popular and that added to the 'community' feeling as a whole.
And while part of the charm of vanilla was that everything was new and people were very bad at the game, that's not the whole point of vanilla -- really.
Look at EQ1, people playing legacy servers today(and these are hardcore fans) and it's basically the same as the old days(though EQ1's legacy servers did add some nifty features which deviate a bit from the vanilla game).
Man, my server forum sucked ass. I was stuck on BRsong back in vanilla. There was this griefer guild who was always an ass to everyone in the server and didn't give two shits about DKs. I was in a guild that sucked ass, but I wasn't smart enough to know they sucked at the time. Everyone talked shit about the guild I was in, but there I was, ignorantly defending them on the server forums. Alliance were all pieces of shit and Horde was always in some sort of civil strife, so we never helped each other. The server sucked ass, I tell you. T_T
Don't think harder leveling is the main issue, it is the fact that harder leveling promoted you to communicate with other players to help each other therefore forming community
Some kind of difficulty (even if it's low) is required to create interesting content - it doesn't matter how perfect everything else is, if you can do the content at 95% efficiency while half a asleep and watching a movie then it doesn't make for good MMO gameplay IMO.
That includes both questing and the level of difficulty that they have brought the leveling dungeons to right now.
It's going online today. You can transfer your old characters from nostalrius (at least in theory, I'm trying and havent received the confirm-your-account-email after registering 30 minutes ago).
EPT
For my part I loved BC and WOTLK but playing it on private servers just didn't feel the same. Good luck though!
(start from 2:30 if you don't have time to watch full)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q4UrW8k.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70162/1/9a_sinksfaucets.png)
