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On April 30 2016 06:10 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want. What's so bad about a Pristine server? That's something I would play on. I really don't get the hate on Pristine servers. I understand that the people who want legacy servers aren't going to settle for pristine servers (ultimately its not the game they want) , but pristine servers themselves sound awesome.
The whole philosophy behind them is to promote community and capture the "nostalgia" again by making it harder to level and recapture the feeling of playing an MMO again by making the world feel alive. The problem is that it will obviously fail. Every expansion, they been pushing for more single player play and less player to player interaction. It has been 6 expansion so even if you remove all these stuff and try to create the feel, the world does not support it because it has been too heavily balance around LFR and no group play etc etc. The idea behind it is good but ultimately it is a lazy option and unless they actually put A LOT of work into it, then it won't work. But if they do put work into it, it will delay content on current expansion which will piss off the other people since blizzard has already been struggling with releasing content. They themselves said that they offered this alternative because the other alternative can not be reach without great "difficulty" meaning it is too much work.
Examples:
Leveling up in a Cataclysm world does not promote group play like Vanilla because the world is really easy. You will just steam roll everything and multi pull without fear of actually dying so you will never need to play with other people. Not to mention you having access to powerful ability early now that makes thing even easier. Eventually when you reach max level, you will still be stuck in a garrison so it fixes nothing. Same thing will happen in legion, people will just chill in class halls.
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Look, if they do ever create a pristine server or whatever the hell, one thing it definitely needs is to not be crossrealm in any sense. If there is a groupfinder, it's gotta be just that pristine server. That way you kind of force a community. Even if it's a WoD server, you still have to run mythics every week for Valor, so you gotta eventually meet some people.
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On April 30 2016 07:25 Arnstein wrote:
If Blizzard made old school servers, where you can transfer your character once you are done, I'd be so happy! I started playing in Pandaria, and want to check out how the older expansions were. It would be nice if once you get max level in one expansion, you can move your character to a server with the next expansion, until finally you move it to retail.
This would be the ultimate best-case scenario. I think Blizz is capable of doing this.
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It shouldn't have a group finder. We already had seen that if the function is there on any game withouth crossrealm functionality, people won't get out of the capitals if they can queue up.
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On April 30 2016 12:29 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2016 06:10 lestye wrote:On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want. What's so bad about a Pristine server? That's something I would play on. I really don't get the hate on Pristine servers. I understand that the people who want legacy servers aren't going to settle for pristine servers (ultimately its not the game they want) , but pristine servers themselves sound awesome. The whole philosophy behind them is to promote community and capture the "nostalgia" again by making it harder to level and recapture the feeling of playing an MMO again by making the world feel alive. The problem is that it will obviously fail. Every expansion, they been pushing for more single player play and less player to player interaction. It has been 6 expansion so even if you remove all these stuff and try to create the feel, the world does not support it because it has been too heavily balance around LFR and no group play etc etc. The idea behind it is good but ultimately it is a lazy option and unless they actually put A LOT of work into it, then it won't work. But if they do put work into it, it will delay content on current expansion which will piss off the other people since blizzard has already been struggling with releasing content. They themselves said that they offered this alternative because the other alternative can not be reach without great "difficulty" meaning it is too much work. Examples: Leveling up in a Cataclysm world does not promote group play like Vanilla because the world is really easy. You will just steam roll everything and multi pull without fear of actually dying so you will never need to play with other people. Not to mention you having access to powerful ability early now that makes thing even easier. Eventually when you reach max level, you will still be stuck in a garrison so it fixes nothing. Same thing will happen in legion, people will just chill in class halls.
Except pristine servers inherently destroy the most lucrative reason why people stay in their garrisons.... you can queue up for anything and everything from right there. If that shit is destroyed, then you'd have to actually do something to progress your character.
I don't really care for a hard levelling experience, but for end-game a server w/o matchmaking, server transfers, wow tokens sounds like a dream to me.
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Honestly, the real reason why it won't work is because WoWhead, Icyveins, and a billion other sites exist. The part that mad Vanilla so capitvating was that there was no real (Thottbot and Allakhazam were very limited) "strategy guide" that told you everything you needed to know. No dungeon journal, no map that tells you exactly where quest items are, nothing. It was all exploration and trial and error.
Even if they released a "pristine" or "vanilla" server, we already know how to play our classes, we know where everything is, we know the fastest ways to level, we know how to optimize getting gold, we know which bosses drop which items, and we know every single raid boss like the back of our hands. Even if we didn't know any of those things, we could look them up in 2 seconds. It basically just becomes the same grind we're used to with modern WoW, but 100x more inconvenient.
While bringing back server communities is a great fucking thing that I'd absolutely love, it won't make the game new, fun, or interesting again.
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You have access to that information today. People still play vanilla.
Hell, i knew how to play my class when i was already lvl 40. Sm/Ruin. Many of you didn't have a clue and was your first MMORPG, but for others, it wasn't. And plenty of the people who raided are those who actually miss the community culture.
Dude doing quests in vanilla was always easy to figure out. Read the damn quest or just eyeball over it looking for the classic keywords (creatures names, direction, locations). The difference is mostly in downtime and how many you can pull.
It certainly will make the game more interesting than the autist shithole it is right now tho. I don't disagree from a purely gameplay perspective, but that's overrated in MMORPGs.
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doing quests in vanilla is actually very hard imo.
especially in a open pvp world, you always had to look over your back everytime you sat down to drink/eat every couple mobs. im speaking from current experience as Im on Kronos right now.
hell even back then i had a ele shammy that was geared in champion pvp set and I still had a hard time killing mobs in silithus and EPL/WPL.
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That goes with downtime or how many you can pull, if mobs are retail levels of easy you really don't care about getting attacked when you have pulled.
Yeah, you have to be checking your back most of the time, but questing intrinsically isn't hard, it's that the contested PvP zones actually do work as intended in regards to content generation and the thrilling atmosphere.
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On May 01 2016 10:52 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2016 12:29 SheaR619 wrote:On April 30 2016 06:10 lestye wrote:On April 29 2016 22:17 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:
The fact that Blizzard are even discussing this idea of a so-called "Pristine Server" to me shows how immense the gap actually is between what Blizzard thinks people want and what people actually want. What's so bad about a Pristine server? That's something I would play on. I really don't get the hate on Pristine servers. I understand that the people who want legacy servers aren't going to settle for pristine servers (ultimately its not the game they want) , but pristine servers themselves sound awesome. The whole philosophy behind them is to promote community and capture the "nostalgia" again by making it harder to level and recapture the feeling of playing an MMO again by making the world feel alive. The problem is that it will obviously fail. Every expansion, they been pushing for more single player play and less player to player interaction. It has been 6 expansion so even if you remove all these stuff and try to create the feel, the world does not support it because it has been too heavily balance around LFR and no group play etc etc. The idea behind it is good but ultimately it is a lazy option and unless they actually put A LOT of work into it, then it won't work. But if they do put work into it, it will delay content on current expansion which will piss off the other people since blizzard has already been struggling with releasing content. They themselves said that they offered this alternative because the other alternative can not be reach without great "difficulty" meaning it is too much work. Examples: Leveling up in a Cataclysm world does not promote group play like Vanilla because the world is really easy. You will just steam roll everything and multi pull without fear of actually dying so you will never need to play with other people. Not to mention you having access to powerful ability early now that makes thing even easier. Eventually when you reach max level, you will still be stuck in a garrison so it fixes nothing. Same thing will happen in legion, people will just chill in class halls. Except pristine servers inherently destroy the most lucrative reason why people stay in their garrisons.... you can queue up for anything and everything from right there. If that shit is destroyed, then you'd have to actually do something to progress your character. I don't really care for a hard levelling experience, but for end-game a server w/o matchmaking, server transfers, wow tokens sounds like a dream to me.
Don't think harder leveling is the main issue, it is the fact that harder leveling promoted you to communicate with other players to help each other therefore forming community. Although removing LFR helps a lot, since it pushes people to go into guild, there are still many things that is holding it back. The game itself would not promote any character interaction beside guild since doing dungeon is the only way to progress. The world will still feel empty.
The point of this is that Pristine Realm is to be the alternative to Vanilla Realm. They are suppose to recapture the nostalgia and Vanilla feels without having to remake the game because apparently it is too much work. Although it may fit what you want perfectly, it completely miss the goal it was trying to fulfill. It can work but it require ALOT of work, more then just removing those stuff. Which is why it is largely viewed a failure.
EDIT: Apparently some news regarding Blizzard and Nostalrius is suppose to surface soon according to Nostalrius tweet. Perhaps something might actually come out of this.
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I'm not saying that's not true, but it's not really the biggest problem to me.
BC and Wrath levelling was super easy compared to Vanilla. Most of my memories come from organizing raids and guilds to get my character progression done. Being out in the world, needing to do stuff, is more important than the aggro radius on mobs. A purposeful world above all, and doing stuff thats not navigating through menus is how you get a world, not NECESSARILY harder levelling.
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I don't disagree with that, to an extent. In my opinion WoW was more succesful than EQ2 because the leveling part was soloable at the time, managing to get wide range of people who didn't play MMORPGs to get hooked up, while keeping content that required you to group when you leveled up and more or less, cooperate (ie, CC).
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I would have loved to see stats on group quest completion in vanilla. My gut tells me the vast majority of players simply skipped quests they could not complete alone.
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On May 03 2016 00:24 Gorsameth wrote:
I would have loved to see stats on group quest completion in vanilla. My gut tells me the vast majority of players simply skipped quests they could not complete alone.
I mean, that's probably why they were nerfed to begin with. You had a bunch of lowbies late to the part who leveled in Vanilla content in 2006-2008 who never did the elite group quests because there was hardly anyone in that zone, or it was really time consuming to wait for someone to come across the zone once they did have a party.
The only group quests that I will go out of my way to get a party with, even wait if I have to are the super lucrative Ring of Blood type quests.
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On May 01 2016 13:07 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, the real reason why it won't work is because WoWhead, Icyveins, and a billion other sites exist. The part that mad Vanilla so capitvating was that there was no real (Thottbot and Allakhazam were very limited) "strategy guide" that told you everything you needed to know. No dungeon journal, no map that tells you exactly where quest items are, nothing. It was all exploration and trial and error.
Even if they released a "pristine" or "vanilla" server, we already know how to play our classes, we know where everything is, we know the fastest ways to level, we know how to optimize getting gold, we know which bosses drop which items, and we know every single raid boss like the back of our hands. Even if we didn't know any of those things, we could look them up in 2 seconds. It basically just becomes the same grind we're used to with modern WoW, but 100x more inconvenient.
While bringing back server communities is a great fucking thing that I'd absolutely love, it won't make the game new, fun, or interesting again.
Maybe very early on, but Allakhazam was very popular at some point and it was basically like a more light-weight version of wowhead. People did use forums way more back then though, I remember how realm forums were very popular and that added to the 'community' feeling as a whole.
And while part of the charm of vanilla was that everything was new and people were very bad at the game, that's not the whole point of vanilla -- really.
Look at EQ1, people playing legacy servers today(and these are hardcore fans) and it's basically the same as the old days(though EQ1's legacy servers did add some nifty features which deviate a bit from the vanilla game).
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On May 03 2016 01:06 Andre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2016 13:07 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, the real reason why it won't work is because WoWhead, Icyveins, and a billion other sites exist. The part that mad Vanilla so capitvating was that there was no real (Thottbot and Allakhazam were very limited) "strategy guide" that told you everything you needed to know. No dungeon journal, no map that tells you exactly where quest items are, nothing. It was all exploration and trial and error.
Even if they released a "pristine" or "vanilla" server, we already know how to play our classes, we know where everything is, we know the fastest ways to level, we know how to optimize getting gold, we know which bosses drop which items, and we know every single raid boss like the back of our hands. Even if we didn't know any of those things, we could look them up in 2 seconds. It basically just becomes the same grind we're used to with modern WoW, but 100x more inconvenient.
While bringing back server communities is a great fucking thing that I'd absolutely love, it won't make the game new, fun, or interesting again. Maybe very early on, but Allakhazam was very popular at some point and it was basically like a more light-weight version of wowhead. People did use forums way more back then though, I remember how realm forums were very popular and that added to the 'community' feeling as a whole. And while part of the charm of vanilla was that everything was new and people were very bad at the game, that's not the whole point of vanilla -- really. Look at EQ1, people playing legacy servers today(and these are hardcore fans) and it's basically the same as the old days(though EQ1's legacy servers did add some nifty features which deviate a bit from the vanilla game).
Man, my server forum sucked ass. I was stuck on BRsong back in vanilla. There was this griefer guild who was always an ass to everyone in the server and didn't give two shits about DKs. I was in a guild that sucked ass, but I wasn't smart enough to know they sucked at the time. Everyone talked shit about the guild I was in, but there I was, ignorantly defending them on the server forums. Alliance were all pieces of shit and Horde was always in some sort of civil strife, so we never helped each other. The server sucked ass, I tell you. T_T
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United Kingdom20344 Posts
Don't think harder leveling is the main issue, it is the fact that harder leveling promoted you to communicate with other players to help each other therefore forming community
Some kind of difficulty (even if it's low) is required to create interesting content - it doesn't matter how perfect everything else is, if you can do the content at 95% efficiency while half a asleep and watching a movie then it doesn't make for good MMO gameplay IMO.
That includes both questing and the level of difficulty that they have brought the leveling dungeons to right now.
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It's going online today. You can transfer your old characters from nostalrius (at least in theory, I'm trying and havent received the confirm-your-account-email after registering 30 minutes ago).
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EPT
