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WoW vanilla brainstorm - Page 20

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daemir
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland8662 Posts
April 11 2016 18:32 GMT
#381
On April 12 2016 03:32 Klowney wrote:
WoW is nowhere near the biggest mmorpg, also the current expansion is complete crap. There is a reason why they aren't talking about sub numbers anymore in public.


Which one is bigger?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 18:38:53
April 11 2016 18:34 GMT
#382
On April 12 2016 03:32 daemir wrote:
Setting it up in Blizzard's own systems now is not a trivial task. The game was different back then and even bnet has changed a lot. If Blizzard was to offer vanilla servers, it would have to integrate into current bnet and they would have to support it as well, which means more staff. It's just not in their corporate image to put something half assed up on the servers and let it be there for a few interested people. Blizzard puts out polished games everytime they do so. Hell their betas are more polished than some AAA releases.

Legacy D2, War3, and BW servers have no B.Net 2.0 integration and essentially no support, and literally nobody has a problem with this. If "half-assing" these things was a problem, they would have pulled the plug on these games years ago, but instead they feel maintaining an unsupported legacy product for a small number of loyal fans is better than removing it to have a "cleaner corporate image". The idea that this affects their "corporate image" somehow is a made up argument from people trying to defend their decision not to do it.
Moderator
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10167 Posts
April 11 2016 18:38 GMT
#383
On April 12 2016 03:22 deth2munkies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 03:05 Godwrath wrote:
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.


How so ? It's free advertisment.

And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.

It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.


Why do they need to advertise WoW? Everyone has heard of WoW, even non-gamers. The IP has gone on for 11 years and is still the biggest in their field. They don't need to spend millions of dollars in startup and upkeep for something a few thousand people (at most) would use.

There's already a free trial for WoW (play up to lvl 30 IIRC), the Vanilla experience is more likely to turn off rather than turn on any newer gamers who aren't used to the old days when grind and inaccessibility was the rule rather than the exception, and the Vanilla servers do have a negative effect by letting people play WoW without a subscription, even if it is a different version.

The last point is really the only one that's controversial, but I'd argue that even the people that say they wouldn't touch WoW anymore will get tempted from time to time to resub for a while (I know I do), and Vanilla private servers let them scratch the itch without paying Blizzard a dime. But I'd also posit (this is reaching moreso than the last statement) that most of those people who use the Vanilla servers as such wouldn't pay to play on them if they were offered for a sub by Blizzard. That's one of the real rubs with Blizzard making an official one, it's not just who will play, but who will pay to do so. And if people are playing the private servers but wouldn't pay for playing on official ones, that's really just straight up piracy.

Answering paragraphs.

1 - Heard off =/= Keep playing. You are thinking of it just as a TV ad. when people play a private game version of your MMO, eventually they will try out your LIVE version. It keeps people invested into your franchise, which is the important part.

2 - Trial comes with huge limitations to protect from gold seller spam which make it enjoyment rather bland. And more importantly, it's not something you can keep playing and getting invested into.

3 - If i am tempted to resub, it's because i want to play live WoW, not a legacy pirate server. Let get this straight, people who keep playing on pirate servers from different past versions of WoW, either also play live WoW or are not interested into live WoW. It's the same kind of argument people use against piracy when they say "piracy stole 20k copies". How the frack do you know how many of those would had bought it in the first place, if any. The piracy line gets even stupidier here since we are not talking of versions of WoW which are avaible to the customer otherwise. We are talking about versions of WoW which Blizzards neglects to release by its own here. Damn, for all i know, these "pirate" servers are doing a service to Blizzard for free, and they still manage to shit on them.


daemir
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland8662 Posts
April 11 2016 18:38 GMT
#384
Neither D2, War3 nor BW was a relaunched product.

Dude I got no horse in this race at all, I liked vanilla and would probably play an alt if they did provide a server, but I totally understand why they don't. And people would cry for support and whine about bugs, don't kid yourself. People whine about anything.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 11 2016 18:42 GMT
#385
On April 12 2016 03:38 daemir wrote:
And people would cry for support and whine about bugs, don't kid yourself. People whine about anything.

So how do the official B.net forums having more or less whiners affect their "corporate image"?

It'd be within expectation for anyone who cares about the product. I think any obligation to polish the release any more than the bare minimum is totally imagined.
Moderator
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 18:58:51
April 11 2016 18:56 GMT
#386
On April 12 2016 03:32 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 03:28 deth2munkies wrote:
On April 12 2016 03:26 TheYango wrote:
I think you're vastly overestimating the cost necessary to set up and maintain a vanilla WoW server. If it took millions of dollars to set up, Nostalrius would never have gotten off the ground, since they very clearly don't have an operating budget on the order of millions of dollars, and unlike Blizzard don't have the original source code.


Go back and read my original post on the subject, it explains why it's a lot more expensive for Blizzard than for some modders.

I did and I already responded:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 01:52 TheYango wrote:
On April 11 2016 22:52 deth2munkies wrote:
That means in order to make a server on a previous expansion, they'd have to completely re-do everything about how those games connect to the Blizzard servers in addition to acquiring new servers to host them on, relocalizing everything (WoW wasn't in anywhere near as many countries then as it is now), and establishing a support network to monitor customer support, constantly update, and fix bugs.

I've seen this argument before and I think it's bogus. There's no obligation for Blizzard to do anything to clean up Vanilla WoW like a modern game. They continue to maintain the servers for their other legacy titles without any of this stuff. Anyone who'd be interested in playing vanilla WoW knows what they're getting into, and there's not any requirement for Blizzard to do any of this supporting work for the product to satisfy these potential customers.

None of the things you say they "have" to do are things that anyone interested in vanilla WoW cares about or expects.


All of their connectivity is through Battle.net. They can't set up a server that isn't connected through Battle.net. Even if they HAD the source code for the original Vanilla WoW, they'd have to set it up to be compatible with Battle.net which, they've said in the past when asked about Vanilla servers, is very difficult. They also still have to provide tech support, customer service, and a relatively bug free and complete environment (none of this half assed scripting to gapfill or dropping certain quests). That means a lot of work for the engineers instead of improving WoW and its other games, and hiring of additional staff, all of which is expensive.

WoW is different than other games because it still exists and has been wholly changed in small bits over the course of its lifespan, unlike D2 and WC3 that have been consistently running this whole time.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
April 11 2016 19:06 GMT
#387
On April 12 2016 03:38 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 03:22 deth2munkies wrote:
On April 12 2016 03:05 Godwrath wrote:
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.


How so ? It's free advertisment.

And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.

It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.


Why do they need to advertise WoW? Everyone has heard of WoW, even non-gamers. The IP has gone on for 11 years and is still the biggest in their field. They don't need to spend millions of dollars in startup and upkeep for something a few thousand people (at most) would use.

There's already a free trial for WoW (play up to lvl 30 IIRC), the Vanilla experience is more likely to turn off rather than turn on any newer gamers who aren't used to the old days when grind and inaccessibility was the rule rather than the exception, and the Vanilla servers do have a negative effect by letting people play WoW without a subscription, even if it is a different version.

The last point is really the only one that's controversial, but I'd argue that even the people that say they wouldn't touch WoW anymore will get tempted from time to time to resub for a while (I know I do), and Vanilla private servers let them scratch the itch without paying Blizzard a dime. But I'd also posit (this is reaching moreso than the last statement) that most of those people who use the Vanilla servers as such wouldn't pay to play on them if they were offered for a sub by Blizzard. That's one of the real rubs with Blizzard making an official one, it's not just who will play, but who will pay to do so. And if people are playing the private servers but wouldn't pay for playing on official ones, that's really just straight up piracy.

Answering paragraphs.

1 - Heard off =/= Keep playing. You are thinking of it just as a TV ad. when people play a private game version of your MMO, eventually they will try out your LIVE version. It keeps people invested into your franchise, which is the important part.

2 - Trial comes with huge limitations to protect from gold seller spam which make it enjoyment rather bland. And more importantly, it's not something you can keep playing and getting invested into.

3 - If i am tempted to resub, it's because i want to play live WoW, not a legacy pirate server. Let get this straight, people who keep playing on pirate servers from different past versions of WoW, either also play live WoW or are not interested into live WoW. It's the same kind of argument people use against piracy when they say "piracy stole 20k copies". How the frack do you know how many of those would had bought it in the first place, if any. The piracy line gets even stupidier here since we are not talking of versions of WoW which are avaible to the customer otherwise. We are talking about versions of WoW which Blizzards neglects to release by its own here. Damn, for all i know, these "pirate" servers are doing a service to Blizzard for free, and they still manage to shit on them.



1) What the hell does an offered Vanilla server do to help any of that? You aren't making any sense at all. Saying "this is what my game was 11 years ago" doesn't help anyone decide whether or not to play the game now. Also, Blizz can't offer this shit for free, so why would they PAY to play an old version of the game, when they can pay to play the NEW version of the game, absent nostalgia?

2) It's restrictive, but if you buy the game your trial character becomes a full character that you can play in the real game. Can't say that about a vanilla server.

3) It is piracy by any definition, you are copying copyrighted material that you don't own for personal benefit. Financial benefit if you're running it for sub fees or donations. As far as legality goes, it's 100% illegal, no question. What we're doing is quibbling over the morality of "how bad" it is. I'm saying it's potentially worse than you think it is, and that's really it.
Roggay
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland6320 Posts
April 11 2016 20:00 GMT
#388


I don't really follow that guy, but I might as well post this here, because what he says is so true and it's pretty funny.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10167 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 20:14:39
April 11 2016 20:10 GMT
#389
On April 12 2016 04:06 deth2munkies wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 03:38 Godwrath wrote:
On April 12 2016 03:22 deth2munkies wrote:
On April 12 2016 03:05 Godwrath wrote:
My only points are that it makes no business or legal sense to allow private servers to operate unmolested or to provide Vanilla servers of their own.


How so ? It's free advertisment.

And it is ussually good enough for people to jump at your superior and legal product. It's the same kind of stupid mistake GW has been doing for years in the miniature gaming market, shortening and shortening their ip's trails to keep it tight, and by doing so, losing their strong lead.

It only makes sense to control their IP, but when you are using it to stop services which are not harming you and also alienating potential customers, is plain stupid.


Why do they need to advertise WoW? Everyone has heard of WoW, even non-gamers. The IP has gone on for 11 years and is still the biggest in their field. They don't need to spend millions of dollars in startup and upkeep for something a few thousand people (at most) would use.

There's already a free trial for WoW (play up to lvl 30 IIRC), the Vanilla experience is more likely to turn off rather than turn on any newer gamers who aren't used to the old days when grind and inaccessibility was the rule rather than the exception, and the Vanilla servers do have a negative effect by letting people play WoW without a subscription, even if it is a different version.

The last point is really the only one that's controversial, but I'd argue that even the people that say they wouldn't touch WoW anymore will get tempted from time to time to resub for a while (I know I do), and Vanilla private servers let them scratch the itch without paying Blizzard a dime. But I'd also posit (this is reaching moreso than the last statement) that most of those people who use the Vanilla servers as such wouldn't pay to play on them if they were offered for a sub by Blizzard. That's one of the real rubs with Blizzard making an official one, it's not just who will play, but who will pay to do so. And if people are playing the private servers but wouldn't pay for playing on official ones, that's really just straight up piracy.

Answering paragraphs.

1 - Heard off =/= Keep playing. You are thinking of it just as a TV ad. when people play a private game version of your MMO, eventually they will try out your LIVE version. It keeps people invested into your franchise, which is the important part.

2 - Trial comes with huge limitations to protect from gold seller spam which make it enjoyment rather bland. And more importantly, it's not something you can keep playing and getting invested into.

3 - If i am tempted to resub, it's because i want to play live WoW, not a legacy pirate server. Let get this straight, people who keep playing on pirate servers from different past versions of WoW, either also play live WoW or are not interested into live WoW. It's the same kind of argument people use against piracy when they say "piracy stole 20k copies". How the frack do you know how many of those would had bought it in the first place, if any. The piracy line gets even stupidier here since we are not talking of versions of WoW which are avaible to the customer otherwise. We are talking about versions of WoW which Blizzards neglects to release by its own here. Damn, for all i know, these "pirate" servers are doing a service to Blizzard for free, and they still manage to shit on them.



1) What the hell does an offered Vanilla server do to help any of that? You aren't making any sense at all. Saying "this is what my game was 11 years ago" doesn't help anyone decide whether or not to play the game now. Also, Blizz can't offer this shit for free, so why would they PAY to play an old version of the game, when they can pay to play the NEW version of the game, absent nostalgia?

2) It's restrictive, but if you buy the game your trial character becomes a full character that you can play in the real game. Can't say that about a vanilla server.

3) It is piracy by any definition, you are copying copyrighted material that you don't own for personal benefit. Financial benefit if you're running it for sub fees or donations. As far as legality goes, it's 100% illegal, no question. What we're doing is quibbling over the morality of "how bad" it is. I'm saying it's potentially worse than you think it is, and that's really it.


1 - Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise. It's not that hard to understand. That's the service you are getting from pirate's servers. And you don't put or lose a nickel with it. Either i constructed poorly my sentence, or you had missed Heroes of the Storm or Hearthstone game releases.

2 - You still have to buy it tho, which defeats the purpose of a demo on a MMO where you need to invest time to get hooked up.

3 - And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers. Which is in my opinion, negative for them and a poor decission. Do you really think that the people who were playing nostalrius and didn't have a live subcription will suddenly run to buy one ? Or other pirate players at different servers ? Have a better opinion of Blizzard ?
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 11 2016 20:39 GMT
#390
On April 12 2016 03:56 deth2munkies wrote:
All of their connectivity is through Battle.net. They can't set up a server that isn't connected through Battle.net. Even if they HAD the source code for the original Vanilla WoW, they'd have to set it up to be compatible with Battle.net which, they've said in the past when asked about Vanilla servers, is very difficult. They also still have to provide tech support, customer service, and a relatively bug free and complete environment (none of this half assed scripting to gapfill or dropping certain quests). That means a lot of work for the engineers instead of improving WoW and its other games, and hiring of additional staff, all of which is expensive.

WoW is different than other games because it still exists and has been wholly changed in small bits over the course of its lifespan, unlike D2 and WC3 that have been consistently running this whole time.

Again, why are these things "necessary"? Why is B.Net 2.0 connectivity a thing that HAS to happen for Blizzard to re-release vanilla?
Moderator
DCRed
Profile Joined May 2011
Finland435 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 20:59:59
April 11 2016 20:39 GMT
#391
I remember reading Blizzard say that the game is really butchered and they couldn't release patch 1.3.X or something, they'd actually have to go find alpha or something code and then develop from there. Vanilla launch was horrible for many patches as well.

Also I wonder just how long would people keep playing on vanilla server after few years when content is done and no new content would be coming. I mean look at WoD and what happened when you make one big patch only. Or more like how fast would people start whining for things like LFG when you suddenly don't find groups for ubrs anymore.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8751 Posts
April 11 2016 20:41 GMT
#392
On April 12 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise
...

And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers.

It's not their IP anymore if someone else can use it. Their only choices are to shut them down or make them official. If you see how important IP is to a video game company, especially Blizzard, then I'm surprised that you think releasing their IP is going to be okay, or somehow paradoxically better for the value of their IP in the long run.
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
April 11 2016 20:41 GMT
#393
On April 12 2016 05:39 DCRed wrote:
I remember reading Blizzard say that the game is really butchered and they couldn't release patch 1.3.X or something, they'd actually have to go find alpha or something code and then develop from there. Vanilla launch was horrible for many patches as well.

If they really don't have the source code for a stable version of vanilla, then as a business decision, not releasing a vanilla server is understandable.

On the other hand, I'd lose a lot of respect for Blizzard as a software company for a totally different reason.
Moderator
DCRed
Profile Joined May 2011
Finland435 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 20:59:43
April 11 2016 20:54 GMT
#394
Yeah it seems weird they wouldn't have working code for stable release but I remember reading something like that they'd have to go pretty far back.

Also I can't help but feel there's so much anger because of much of a letdown WoD was, I mean it's not like there isn't other pservers(yes I know nost was the best one) but there'll be new ones every now and then. And then there's also pservers for other exps, wotlk being pretty common for the pvp reasons as well.
Andre
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Slovenia3523 Posts
April 11 2016 21:09 GMT
#395
I think the best case scenario would be if blizzard made a progression vanilla server. That would carry way more costs than just having a stable version out there, but it could be amazing. Something like EQ1 has done basically.
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10167 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-11 23:13:24
April 11 2016 21:51 GMT
#396
On April 12 2016 05:41 NonY wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise
...

And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers.

It's not their IP anymore if someone else can use it. Their only choices are to shut them down or make them official. If you see how important IP is to a video game company, especially Blizzard, then I'm surprised that you think releasing their IP is going to be okay, or somehow paradoxically better for the value of their IP in the long run.
We are talking about a free private server not monetizing the IP. Not a company making a game making use of the IP or just copying it and profiting from it. Legally i don't think it harms your IP's hold.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
April 12 2016 00:59 GMT
#397
Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-12 01:30:42
April 12 2016 01:24 GMT
#398
On April 12 2016 06:51 Godwrath wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 05:41 NonY wrote:
On April 12 2016 05:10 Godwrath wrote:
Widening your IP's range is good to keep people investing into your franchise
...

And i didn't say it isn't piracy, and i am not talking about the morality behind, what i am questioning is the financial and business value that Blizzard extracts pursuing the piracy of legacy servers.

It's not their IP anymore if someone else can use it. Their only choices are to shut them down or make them official. If you see how important IP is to a video game company, especially Blizzard, then I'm surprised that you think releasing their IP is going to be okay, or somehow paradoxically better for the value of their IP in the long run.
We are talking about a free private server not monetizing the IP. Not a company making a game making use of the IP or just copying it and profiting from it. Legally i don't think it harms your IP's hold.


Well, the hosting service sure profited from that. So while Nostalrius team might've not seen a dime, someone got money off the IP.

The logistical problem I see with setting up Legacy servers, not thinking about the problems with the code, netcode and probably weird ways to make things work (invisible bunnies and infernals anyone?) is that they don't need one server. They need at least twelve I would say. Four for NA, four for EU and four for China.

So now that 150,000 players is split over twelve servers - making every one of these populated with 12,500 players.
Is it worth it? That's the best split by the way.
The answer?
I don't know.

Can 12,500 (If a realm or two hog all the players, the others surely will feel deserted!) players recreate the crowded, lively atmosphere of Nostalrius for both factions?
I don't know.
(You can say that Chinese players weren't the ones playing Nostalrius - fine, then you have 18,750 players per realm, but then most likely Blizzard would want to set-up servers for China anyway - so it's a money thing.)

Is maintaining a crew of people dedicated to those twelve servers tedious?
I don't know.

Will those servers require technological/coding backing up besides just popping the old code and running it?
Probably.

Will Blizzard offer instant 60s to people who have left Nostalrius and don't want to even start over on another server without the boost?
Don't think so.

Can Blizzard just create a Legacy server and let people play it?
Let's say yes.
Those servers go through all the progression, obviously.

Can people wait again for all the content, the same it was originally?
Let's say yes.

So, the moment BC content approaches, do you discount the Legacy servers and make the move onto BC or make new servers, offering one-time all-account transfers for those (big assumption!) and leave the Legacy server running?
Let's say yes.
So, what happens to the playerbase?

Can people really bear the content-flow being laid out over two years, like it was originally? If not, what do you decide on? Make it all in a year?

Is that really what people want, seeing that Nostalrius seems to have kept Legacy pace?

What about the servers?
If you keep running those twelve Legacy ones, you now have another twelve of TBC.
Playerbase might split even more, maybe Legacy becomes deserted (I don't really see TBC failing, I believe that's the most nostalgic of the expansion just because there were more people experiencing it), what now?

Cut Legacy? Leave it unprofitable? Leave it without this "feel" of vanilla that everyone came for (bustling second-life)?
I don't know.

You must remember, that while doing all this, you don't want to divert players from retail to Legacy (because expansions, of course, are additional surge in money).
Also, what is the endgame?
Every ten years remove everyone and make them start over? Every Vanilla->TBC->WOTLK cycle start over?
I don't know. Neither do you and neither do they.
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bo1b
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Australia12814 Posts
April 12 2016 01:59 GMT
#399
On April 12 2016 09:59 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.

Fair enough to argue that, but you were just telling us how we don't really want to play it like 2 pages back. Take a look at runescape/everquest to see what there customer base thought of reimplimenting vanilla. Hint, it's now bigger then the up to date version.
deth2munkies
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States4051 Posts
April 12 2016 02:02 GMT
#400
On April 12 2016 10:59 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2016 09:59 deth2munkies wrote:
Honestly, there's no getting through to you guys. It's a horrible business decision, they've told us it's a horrible business decision, it's obvious it's a horrible business decision, but you guys want what you want.

Fair enough to argue that, but you were just telling us how we don't really want to play it like 2 pages back. Take a look at runescape/everquest to see what there customer base thought of reimplimenting vanilla. Hint, it's now bigger then the up to date version.


Well you don't. Both of those games have tiny playerbases to begin with nowadays, and the only people that are really playing are those playing out of nostalgia/habit that have been playing forever. One day, maybe WoW would be like that, but right now there's not a big enough demand for it. I already pointed out how 10-15k quoted on Nostalrius is both misleading and a drop in the bucket anyway. And speaking from personal experience, Vanilla outwears its welcome very quickly in the endgame since we've become accustomed to not putting up with the massive amount of bullshit that it wants you to, despite the fact it was a revolutionarliy small amount of bullshit at the time.
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