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On April 12 2016 23:22 ref4 wrote:
WoW quests have been sticking to the exact same boring formula since Vanilla:
1. Kill X amount of Y
2. Kill X amount of Y and bring back A amount of B
3. Collect X amount of Y
There's been a lot more variety /quirky mechanics like Vehicle quests or quests where you control a different character, as well as the rate of which shit drops.
Low drop rate quests are probably the more annoying part about Vanilla.
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On April 12 2016 23:32 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +What does the stat squish have to do with it? The ease of killing stuff? That was already done when they added Heirloom gear. No, it wasn't. For one, heirlooms only existed for veteran players in WOTLK+ (not classic+TBC) and when heirlooms existed and you had them, stuff still took a little while to die. I quested halfway to cap right before cata with heirlooms on a hunter and then leveled a new one from 1-100 right after the stat squish and it was a completely different game, 3x easier is an understatement. Stat squish & class reworks is when everything went super wonky. Heirloomless characters are suddenly hitting 3-4x harder than before, relatively. A level 40 char has the health of a level 60 raider even though the quest and dungeon mobs don't hit any harder. Show nested quote +The new player experience isn't that important to WoW anymore since its not going to attract a whole lot of new players. I disagree. The playerbase in the first 6 years was built from losing subscriptions left and right but pulling in new players way faster than they lost old ones. The average time that every current WoW played has played WoW seems to have been increasing dramatically since around cata. -------- Show nested quote +The fact we (the players) stopped talking to anyone outside our social circle (be it guild or otherwise) as soon as it was no longer required simply shows that we didn't want to do it in the first place. This is actually a subject that i've seen talked about a lot. The TL;DR is that players will follow the path of least resistance even when they strongly dislike that path; for good game design you should make the path of least resistance fun.
Not going to deny the leveling is beyond easy now, Blizzard simply didn't spend the time re-balancing all the old content and after how badly the old world redesign in Cata was received I don't blame them, also see lack of new players
So your agreeing with me? The game gained a lot of new players when it was young and that slowed down when it got older. It how gaming works.
I agree players take the path of least resistance, and some might will the mute pug world unfun but is that number anywhere in relation to the people who didn't enjoy standing in Ironforge for an hour shouting for a tank and/or healer for LBRS?
Whenever I was 'forced' into pugging an old raid for the legendary quest on alts I was reminded of how annoying the average WoW player can be and how little desire I have to interact with him in any form.
What sort of changes would you envision to return the community feeling without getting all the annoying stuff back aswell.
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8751 Posts
I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back:
1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
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Preamble: I played Nostalrius very little (I got a Human Paladin to 15 over the course of a couple evenings then sort of forgot about it). I play retail in a high end raiding guild, and have played on and off since Vanilla. I also haven't read this thread too much but I skimmed the past two pages or so. Please note that I am trying not to pass judgment on which version of the game is better. Also I'm really tired so I hope this is coherent.
Vanilla WoW is like life, in that you were forced to interact with people even if you didn't necessarily want to in order to accomplish goals. In doing so you met some assholes, but you also made friends and had memorable experiences. From reading others forums, I think a lot of people that played Nostalrius extensively understood this.
So let's talk about why Blizzard doesn't get this (or maybe they do) and the "You think you want it but you don't" remarks
Blizzard's logic/reasoning is totally understandable without having to project insecure/malicious intent on them. However, I think they are either wrong or are attempting a feat that I think is near impossible.
They think the current state of the game is better than Vanilla. Why? Well, two reasons. One, the game is in many ways much better on a gameplay level. It's challenging on a more mechanical level than say, an organizational/managerial level (did you farm up all this gear for this boss, how much spare time do you have to farm this, etc.). Classes are more challenging to play well in a vacuum, specs are more viable at an end game level. Bosses are more complex.
Then there's reason two, which in some ways contradicts reason one. You see, the tuning of most encounters are such that almost none of the added complexity matters. If you aren't doing organized raiding (meaning not LFR) or PvP, none of that really matters all that much. Everything is really easy, and it's designed so that you don't have to socialize with anyone unless you want to do high end raiding/PvPing because that's what the playerbase thinks they want. Anyone can play! And this gives people the option to play solo, which is great, because it means you don't get any of those bad social interactions.
Except, if you don't meet any assholes, chances are you don't meet any cool people either. And you don't make friends... and, well the game is still easy, because it's tuned so that anyone can do it. And that's not satisfying. You don't feel any accomplishment, and since it's quick and easy so that no one gets left behind, once those solo players finish their solo stuff in a given patch or expansion, they have nothing left to do, and most will unsub.
It's easy to say, well, just socialize with people. You are the change, etc. etc. But that's self aggrandizing bullshit. We are human, we will take the path of least resistance. And turns out, pretending all those other characters are just AIs or whatever, is a lot easier than actually talking to people. Unless you're a high end raider or PvPer where you gotta to those people because you play this game with them every week, for multiple nights a week, fuck those other people. Chitchatting in LFD won't speed things up. In fact, it will probably slow them down because of typing. In extreme cases it could even make someone important ragequit or get kicked, and that's even worse.
So that was the beauty of Vanilla. By accident maybe, it hit that sweet spot, and you had communities, made friendships, memories.
So why doesn't Blizz want all that money? Why did they change the game? Why no legacy servers?
Personally, I think Blizzard would have to be stupid to not be aware of this, and I interpret things like "You think you want this but you don't" as "You want the community feel of the game, not the game itself," but admittedly this is my own biased perception of things. And that itself makes it a dumb thing for them to say, because of its vagueness.
So the alternative is this: They want it all. They want the big community feel but they also want the game to be, ah, "accessible" like it is now, so that people can, uh, play how they want. But just typing it out makes it sound insane. I don't have the slightest clue how to get that sort of world community feel people want while also making it easy so that the guy who has a family and doesn't have time to do anything longer than a 30 minute play session because of obligations and this and that can actually play and be happy. Which... leads into another tangent, of how you can't please everyone.
And I think Blizzard would rather have something they consider a good game over something popular. Since, well, Blizzard is prideful. And this pride also stops them from releasing legacy servers even if they might be profitable. And prideful people don't like to admit when they're doing something stupid, so they say stupid things like I talked about a couple paragraphs ago.
Aside: Blizzard is also well within their rights to shut down private servers, and it's also important to protect their IPs. As far as I know it doesn't matter that Nostalrius wasn't making money off it or that Blizzard doesn't offer legacy servers or any of that.
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
One of the biggest problems now is that literally all open world content, dungeon and anything that's not a current-tier-raid is made irrelevant by the gear scaling in the game. DPS is tripling every tier, so on the release of the second tier we're doing 9x as much damage as on launch.
For the first 5 years of the game, the gear that 95% of the playerbase had was not that much better than basic max level gear. Not even 2 years deep into the current expansion.
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idk... I feel there's an easy way to make all parties happy. Have vanilla servers be a bonus of the sub, so they have a bigger number to flaunt as a subscriber numbers, they get to try whatever inclusive stuff they want for retail, while hanging onto the legacy of vanilla wow.
These aren't people that are trying to rip Blizzard off and get away with playing their game for free, these are people who just want experience.that uniqueness of Vanilla WoW.
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On April 13 2016 00:25 Cyro wrote:
One of the biggest problems now is that literally all open world content, dungeon and anything that's not a current-tier-raid is made irrelevant by the gear scaling in the game. DPS is tripling every tier, so on the release of the second tier we're doing 9x as much damage as on launch.
For the first 5 years of the game, the gear that 95% of the playerbase had was not that much better than basic max level gear. Not even 2 years deep into the current expansion.
I agree completely. DPS scaling is moronic this expansion and probably my biggest issue with the game atm.
and TomatoBisque, very nice post and I agree with most, if not all, of it.
On April 13 2016 00:28 lestye wrote:
idk... I feel there's an easy way to make all parties happy. Have vanilla servers be a bonus of the sub, so they have a bigger number to flaunt as a subscriber numbers, they get to try whatever inclusive stuff they want for retail, while hanging onto the legacy of vanilla wow.
These aren't people that are trying to rip Blizzard off and get away with playing their game for free, these are people who just want experience.that uniqueness of Vanilla WoW.
I think Nony hit the nail on the head with his post. What kind of message does it send from Blizzard if they run both? "Hey we have this cool game with 5 expansions but a large enough portion thinks its shit so we still run the base game on the side".
Plus Blizzard holds itself to a certain standard (it might not be the standard you want but that isn't relevant for this) and if they launch Vanilla servers they would feel obligated to themselves to support them. And they are not willing to go back and fix Vanish or any number of issues that the old game still had.
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New player experience right now in WoW is absolutely abysmal.
I played a one week trial a few months ago after not playing since TBC and it was a complete joke. I was still just in frozen shadow weave gear (lol, spriest progression), and gained about 8 levels barely replacing anything and just got bored because all I did was ride around mounted dotting everything in sight because the limiting factor was how many mobs I could reach, not the threat of dying and not the amount of damage I was doing to each mob. I didn't feel any power creep at all at the point I stopped playing. I mean, it's kind of my fault I guess for abusing flying mounts and having remotely good gear, but the early game levels shouldn't feel like end game grinding the whole way.
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On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote:
I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back:
1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then.
I absolutely agree with this and I've had those exact same thoughts for a while.
There is no way Blizzard will ever release legacy servers as long as they are actively supporting the main game as it would send a really bad message (basically admitting that their main game is not attractive enough compared to the old). I also don't think a petition of all things will change anything.
We are talking Activision-Blizzard, not just the old Blizzard, there is no way such a big corporation would care about that little portion of the community that want to play vanilla and this is really what is making me sad. With this Blizzard, there is no place for a good gesture to a small part of the community, only maximum profit will cut it (although yes I know, the devs probably don't want to admit that they ruined their own game either).
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On April 13 2016 01:00 chocorush wrote:
New player experience right now in WoW is absolutely abysmal.
I played a one week trial a few months ago after not playing since TBC and it was a complete joke. I was still just in frozen shadow weave gear (lol, spriest progression), and gained about 8 levels barely replacing anything and just got bored because all I did was ride around mounted dotting everything in sight because the limiting factor was how many mobs I could reach, not the threat of dying and not the amount of damage I was doing to each mob. I didn't feel any power creep at all at the point I stopped playing. I mean, it's kind of my fault I guess for abusing flying mounts and having remotely good gear, but the early game levels shouldn't feel like end game grinding the whole way.
Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content
On April 13 2016 01:16 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote:
I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back:
1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then. I absolutely agree with this and I've had those exact same thoughts for a while. There is no way Blizzard will ever release legacy servers as long as they are actively supporting the main game as it would send a really bad message (basically admitting that their main game is not attractive enough compared to the old). I also don't think a petition of all things will change anything. We are talking Activision-Blizzard, not just the old Blizzard, there is no way such a big corporation would care about that little portion of the community that want to play vanilla and this is really what is making me sad. With this Blizzard, there is no place for a good gesture to a small part of the community, only maximum profit will cut it (although yes I know, the devs probably don't want to admit that they ruined their own game either).
I dont buy this. If max profit would work, wouldnt they want a variety of everything to get the most money? You're saying that vanilla servers wont make them any money? I'm doubtful, I think this is more of an arrogance issue, or they feel if they send 10 guys to work on vanilla servers, thats 10 guys that should be working on keeping retail customers happy, because they've dropped the ball so badly the last expansion.
That being said, idk, I hope its not the arrogant reason, I think there is way or implementation that gives classic players what they want AND save face. and I hope they go for that, even if they spin it like the 15 dollar service compliments eachother or some shit.
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On April 13 2016 01:25 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 01:00 chocorush wrote:
New player experience right now in WoW is absolutely abysmal.
I played a one week trial a few months ago after not playing since TBC and it was a complete joke. I was still just in frozen shadow weave gear (lol, spriest progression), and gained about 8 levels barely replacing anything and just got bored because all I did was ride around mounted dotting everything in sight because the limiting factor was how many mobs I could reach, not the threat of dying and not the amount of damage I was doing to each mob. I didn't feel any power creep at all at the point I stopped playing. I mean, it's kind of my fault I guess for abusing flying mounts and having remotely good gear, but the early game levels shouldn't feel like end game grinding the whole way. Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 01:16 Roggay wrote:On April 13 2016 00:07 NonY wrote:
I think Blizzard is afraid that current WoW looks worse if they support vanilla WoW. I don't know how many subs a legacy server would get but the numbers Nostalrius put up aren't that great. They're good enough that it's imaginable Blizzard finds a really cost-effective way to do it (if they sacrifice some of the standards they usually hold themselves to) that they'll make some money off of it. But how much do they lose from potential current WoW subs? This is the kind of thing that a person without anything invested will rationalize away and pretend is not an issue at all. But for the people whose jobs are on the line and whose company stands to lose millions, it's a worrying question. MMO's are things of momentum and reputation. Supporting legacy servers is saying that your game development has been a sidegrade. Expansions for every other Blizzard game have been clear upgrades that stood the test of time. It's not about the fact that Legacy players are going to play legacy or nothing. It's about what the rest of the world thinks of WoW.
It seems like no legacy player is able to withhold their moaning about all the ways current WoW went wrong. Not a good idea to start justifying those attitudes. If people were more respectful of the two different kinds of games, it might be a different story. But Blizzard still stands to make more money from current WoW than legacy. Justifying the aspersions of a portion of the community mainly just to satisfy them (not as a good strategy for making a lot of money) is kind of a ridiculous idea. These are the people who couldn't just quit playing when the game went in a different direction, but rather had to tell everyone they know how bad WoW is nowadays. The petition is just funny, like a child getting in trouble and saying "I'll be good now if you just give me what I want." I sympathize with Blizzard standing behind their product.
If a new MMO came out that was grindy (by today's standards) and had shit gameplay (bad class design, bad boss fights, horrible PvP system) with very little convenience but had a lot of exploration and open world interaction and yielded awesome communities, everybody would be like "yeah that's a niche MMO that hopefully finds enough stability to live for a while to satisfy the people who want that." Even if it's enough people to justify its own existence, it's still a small number of people.
The two things that I'd be focused on if I wanted vanilla WoW back:
1. Work on a new rule set for current servers that makes the game more difficult in the ways you want and forces a server community in the way you want.
2. Wait for WoW to die and for it to make sense for Blizzard to say "for those who want to relive the experience one last time, we're making legacy progression servers". Because as long as current WoW is better business than legacy WoW, you're fighting an uphill battle. Someday it'll die and it'll make a lot more sense for Blizzard to do legacy servers then. I absolutely agree with this and I've had those exact same thoughts for a while. There is no way Blizzard will ever release legacy servers as long as they are actively supporting the main game as it would send a really bad message (basically admitting that their main game is not attractive enough compared to the old). I also don't think a petition of all things will change anything. We are talking Activision-Blizzard, not just the old Blizzard, there is no way such a big corporation would care about that little portion of the community that want to play vanilla and this is really what is making me sad. With this Blizzard, there is no place for a good gesture to a small part of the community, only maximum profit will cut it (although yes I know, the devs probably don't want to admit that they ruined their own game either). I dont buy this. If max profit would work, wouldnt they want a variety of everything to get the most money? You're saying that vanilla servers wont make them any money? I'm doubtful, I think this is more of an arrogance issue, or they feel if they send 10 guys to work on vanilla servers, thats 10 guys that should be working on keeping retail customers happy, because they've dropped the ball so badly the last expansion. That being said, idk, I hope its not the arrogant reason, I think there is way or implementation that gives classic players what they want AND save face. and I hope they go for that, even if they spin it like the 15 dollar service compliments eachother or some shit.
I have no doubt they would be some money if the released legacy servers, but it would be chump money compared to what they make with the main game (in terms of attracting players).
The issue would be that it could be perceived as them having a lack of confidence in their current product, which is something they really don't want to do as a company if they want to promote what they are currently working on. But I also think a good part of the reason is them being arrogant (maybe it's not the right term tho? There is nothing wrong with being proud about your work, but they are indeed a bit stubborn; that Blizzcon question about legacy servers is really an example of that).
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content
They don't want you doing anything aside from the last patch raid that they released, as far as balance and fun is concerned. That's the only way you can have such a huge lack of playable content (even for a player who has never set foot in the game before) in a 12 year old game that's had a huge dev team on it for the entire time
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On April 13 2016 01:51 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +Ultimately, thats the problem with current WoW and its age. ALL of the playerbase is at max level, thats why they give boosts like candy right now. They honestly dont want you levelling unless its an alt or something, they want you in the relevent in content They don't want you doing anything aside from the last patch raid that they released, as far as balance and fun is concerned. That's the only way you can have such a huge lack of playable content (even for a player who has never set foot in the game before) in a 12 year old game that's had a huge dev team on it for the entire time
Yeah, that's been my complaint about the game since Wrath. When ICC came out, Naxx might as well have been a level 70 raid in regards to relevance because of how how much catch up gear were in the 5mans and ToC being a loot pianta.
But even if that wasnt the case, they'd still want you levelling in the new shit and not the old dated stuff.
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
Even WOTLK was kinda different. Can you imagine having 55% crit chance on a fire mage in ulduar gear? That's reality of WOD
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On April 13 2016 03:06 Cyro wrote:
Even WOTLK was kinda different. Can you imagine having 55% crit chance on a fire mage in ulduar gear? That's reality of WOD
Yeah, wrath was when all that kind of weird gear inflation started. I rember in ToC, I absolutely hated Hit, because I got hit capped in THREE hit pieces, it was nuts. Also they had to nerf armor pen, since so many people were close to hard armor pen cap in Ulduar. (which people eventually hit in ICC)
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Wotlk and the start of multiple raid difficulties is where it started.
In addition to increasing the power creep per tier they doubled and later tripled the frequency.
And that while stats scale exponentially with ilvl.
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Yeah, warforged for all tiers probably plays into that as well.
I hope they felt like jackasses, they put in Sunwell Radiance...during Sunwell because they made tanks way too powerful...and you would think they would have learned from those design failures...and then two years later they had to put Sunwell Radiance into ICC because tanks were too powerful...again
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United Kingdom20319 Posts
Warlords outdoor and dungeons are balanced around i600 but the first tier gives i700 gear which has 2.59x more stat points (that also increase in value for every point that you have) and 2p+4p sets. It doesn't take a math degree to know how that will feel in-game.
Not that they shouldn't hire people with math degrees - EVE Online is a much smaller MMO by player count and has an entire team of economists specifically employed to watch the numbers.
+ Show Spoiler +
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So what is a good Vanilla server these days?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70162/1/9a_sinksfaucets.png)
