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Come on man, I know you hate Dwight but he is a good two-way player.
He's no offensive juggernaut, but with Deron feeding him he'll put up 20-22ppg easy. JJ would be perfect in that scenario as he can play third string in the offense like he should. He's miscast as a #1 option in Atlanta and it's painfully obvious.
Orlando struggled with the terrible Hawks because of their terrible team. Dwight was easily the best player in that series but literally got no help from his teammates who phoned in their performances. Even LeBron struggled when he had to go 1v5 on the Cavs teams of yesteryear.
Miami and Boston are the only teams I'd say were clear favourites over them in a best of seven. Deron and Howard are legit top 10 type superstar players and JJ is an All-Star fwiw. Their biggest issue would be depth, not talent.
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United States4471 Posts
Oh and I have to commend Ferry for cleaning up two of the bigger mistakes the Hawks have made over the years, i.e. drafting Marvin Williams and giving JJ that huge contract. Whatever happens from here on out, their future looks much brighter and these were definitely some of the best moves they could have made right now with what they have.
Scary if they manage to get D12, because a Horford/D12 frontcourt would be ridiculous defensively and should work well offensively with Horford having a pretty good midrange game. They'd still need to deal J-Smoove though because he's just never going to fit with Horford playing PF, but that shouldn't be too hard since there seems to be a good amount of interest in him. A roster with D12, Horford, Harris, Teague and whatever you get for J-Smoove could do some damage.
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If Cyric's team is the one they could put together it would easily be a top 4 seed in the East. I don't get the Indy love--they're pretty overrated for me and a decent team in a crappy conference. They played ok against a Bosh-less Miami, which also had Wade on a bung knee, but are pretty mediocre. If they lose Hibbert they're definitely screwed. But then again if they picked up Eric Gordon and matched Hibbert they'd have a pretty strong squad.
Any core of Howard/Deron/JJ is going to win a lot of games though in the Eastern Conference.
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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2012 12:14 RowdierBob wrote:
Come on man, I know you hate Dwight but he is a good two-way player.
He's no offensive juggernaut, but with Deron feeding him he'll put up 20-22ppg easy. JJ would be perfect in that scenario as he can play third string in the offense like he should. He's miscast as a #1 option in Atlanta and it's painfully obvious.
Orlando struggled with the terrible Hawks because of their terrible team. Dwight was easily the best player in that series but literally got no help from his teammates who phoned in their performances. Even LeBron struggled when he had to go 1v5 on the Cavs teams of yesteryear.
Miami and Boston are the only teams I'd say were clear favourites over them in a best of seven. Deron and Howard are legit top 10 type superstar players and JJ is an All-Star fwiw. Their biggest issue would be depth, not talent.
Problem is that you'd be playing JJ as a #3 option when he'd be getting paid #1 option money. That's not something any team that wants to contend should be doing under the new CBA.
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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2012 12:23 RowdierBob wrote:
If Cyric's team is the one they could put together it would easily be a top 4 seed in the East. I don't get the Indy love--they're pretty overrated for me and a decent team in a crappy conference. They played ok against a Bosh-less Miami, which also had Wade on a bung knee, but are pretty mediocre. If they lose Hibbert they're definitely screwed. But then again if they picked up Eric Gordon and matched Hibbert they'd have a pretty strong squad.
Any core of Howard/Deron/JJ is going to win a lot of games though in the Eastern Conference.
Agree that it would do some damage, but I'm pretty sure they'd still have to go over the cap by a good amount to field even that roster. I wonder just how much Prokhorov is willing to pay in luxury tax.
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On July 03 2012 12:22 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Oh and I have to commend Ferry for cleaning up two of the bigger mistakes the Hawks have made over the years, i.e. drafting Marvin Williams and giving JJ that huge contract. Whatever happens from here on out, their future looks much brighter and these were definitely some of the best moves they could have made right now with what they have.
Scary if they manage to get D12, because a Horford/D12 frontcourt would be ridiculous defensively and should work well offensively with Horford having a pretty good midrange game. They'd still need to deal J-Smoove though because he's just never going to fit with Horford playing PF, but that shouldn't be too hard since there seems to be a good amount of interest in him. A roster with D12, Horford, Harris, Teague and whatever you get for J-Smoove could do some damage.
Hmmm wouldn't they use Smith as trade bait for Howard? The two are pretty close and would relish the chance to play with eachother. I agree they couldn't have all three though. As controversial as it is, maybe they'd move Horford and roll with Howard/Smith? Horford could net them a pretty good backcourt/wing return. There'd be a lot of interest in him.
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Teams just aren't as deep as people make them sound. Look at Boston's roster last season:
Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett. Great. What's after that? Brandon Bass, Chris Wilcox, Keyon Dooling, Avery Bradley, Marquis Daniels, Mickael Pietrus, Greg Stiesma? Most of these guys are meh to meh-ish (with the exception of Bradley, who is meh-ish and growing.) But that team got to the semi's
Just look at any teams depth chart. Even the famously "deep" Grizzlies garner that reputation off the fact that OJ Mayo and Mike Conley are basically average players. But this is a team with Jeremy Pargo, Marreese Speights and Quincy Pondexter. Can you say fungible?
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I haerd anthony parker retired, also they definitely don't need guards or a sf, they need bigs.
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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2012 12:26 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 12:22 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Oh and I have to commend Ferry for cleaning up two of the bigger mistakes the Hawks have made over the years, i.e. drafting Marvin Williams and giving JJ that huge contract. Whatever happens from here on out, their future looks much brighter and these were definitely some of the best moves they could have made right now with what they have.
Scary if they manage to get D12, because a Horford/D12 frontcourt would be ridiculous defensively and should work well offensively with Horford having a pretty good midrange game. They'd still need to deal J-Smoove though because he's just never going to fit with Horford playing PF, but that shouldn't be too hard since there seems to be a good amount of interest in him. A roster with D12, Horford, Harris, Teague and whatever you get for J-Smoove could do some damage. Hmmm wouldn't they use Smith as trade bait for Howard? The two are pretty close and would relish the chance to play with eachother. I agree they couldn't have all three though. As controversial as it is, maybe they'd move Horford and roll with Howard/Smith? Horford could net them a pretty good backcourt/wing return. There'd be a lot of interest in him.
That's true. I forgot about the Smith-Howard friendship angle. Arguably a Smith-D12 frontcourt could still be very good, but it'd pain me to lose Horford if I were an ATL fan.
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On July 03 2012 12:14 RowdierBob wrote:
Come on man, I know you hate Dwight but he is a good two-way player.
He's no offensive juggernaut, but with Deron feeding him he'll put up 20-22ppg easy. JJ would be perfect in that scenario as he can play third string in the offense like he should. He's miscast as a #1 option in Atlanta and it's painfully obvious.
Orlando struggled with the terrible Hawks because of their terrible team. Dwight was easily the best player in that series but literally got no help from his teammates who phoned in their performances. Even LeBron struggled when he had to go 1v5 on the Cavs teams of yesteryear.
Miami and Boston are the only teams I'd say were clear favourites over them in a best of seven. Deron and Howard are legit top 10 type superstar players and JJ is an All-Star fwiw. Their biggest issue would be depth, not talent.
Indiana would kill that team. The problem isn't Deron and Dwight (his offense is still suspect, he can't pass PERIOD) but they would have nothing else. Joe Johnson even as a #3 option I'm kind of wary of. They would struggle. Think about all the flak Miami caught with 2 top 5 talents and how well they ended up doing, now try that with that lineup that doesn't have anyone close to the level of Lebron/Wade and also in Win Now mode. They will get killed.
ETA: I mean seriously - how do you expect that line squad to score against the loaded East with top defenses? You expect Deron Williams to run everything? How do they even score when Williams is off the court, and they have to run Howard by himself or JJ by himself? Look at Miami when they do that: Wade, Lebron or Bosh solo with even marginal role players destroy teams and you expect a lineup featuring a guy who can't be a #1 option in JJ and a guy who can't pass out of a double team and is at the top of the league in turnovers in Dwight Howard to somehow beat the top defensive teams? Really?
This has disaster written all over it.
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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2012 12:28 slyboogie wrote:
Teams just aren't as deep as people make them sound. Look at Boston's roster last season:
Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett. Great. What's after that? Brandon Bass, Chris Wilcox, Keyon Dooling, Avery Bradley, Marquis Daniels, Mickael Pietrus, Greg Stiesma? Most of these guys are meh to meh-ish (with the exception of Bradley, who is meh-ish and growing.) But that team got to the semi's
Just look at any teams depth chart. Even the famously "deep" Grizzlies garner that reputation off the fact that OJ Mayo and Mike Conley are basically average players. But this is a team with Jeremy Pargo, Marreese Speights and Quincy Pondexter. Can you say fungible?
Yeah but look at how much that roster cost despite being very questionable:
1 Kevin Garnett $21,247,044
2 Paul Pierce $15,333,334
3 Rajon Rondo $10,045,455
4 Ray Allen $10,000,000
5 Jermaine O'Neal $6,226,200
6 Brandon Bass $4,250,000
7 Chris Wilcox $3,000,000
8 Keyon Dooling $2,246,400
9 Avery Bradley $1,524,480
10 Sasha Pavlovic $1,223,166
11 Marquis Daniels $1,223,166
12 Mickael Pietrus $1,223,166
13 JaJuan Johnson $1,042,320
14 Greg Stiemsma $762,195
15 E'Twaun Moore $473,604
Total: approx $79.8M
Take out KG, Pierce, Allen, and Rondo and sub in Deron, JJ and D12, and you'd have something like:
1 Deron Williams $16,359,805 (last season's salary, but likely going to be paid even more)
2 Dwight Howard $19,261,200
3 Joe Johnson $19,752,645 (only gets more expensive each season after)
5 Jermaine O'Neal $6,226,200
6 Brandon Bass $4,250,000
7 Chris Wilcox $3,000,000
8 Keyon Dooling $2,246,400
9 Avery Bradley $1,524,480
10 Sasha Pavlovic $1,223,166
11 Marquis Daniels $1,223,166
12 Mickael Pietrus $1,223,166
13 JaJuan Johnson $1,042,320
14 Greg Stiemsma $762,195
15 E'Twaun Moore $473,604
Total $78.5M
I think most people expect the new luxury tax level to stay around $70M, which would put them $8.5M over and cost them quite a bit in luxury tax. That's with one less Allstar level talent (big 4 to big 3), one more roster spot to fill and Deron probably being listed at about $3M less than what he'll getting in his new deal. With JJ's contracting getting worse each year by about $2M, that's going to be a VERY expensive team to run.
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United States4471 Posts
On July 03 2012 12:42 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 12:14 RowdierBob wrote:
Come on man, I know you hate Dwight but he is a good two-way player.
He's no offensive juggernaut, but with Deron feeding him he'll put up 20-22ppg easy. JJ would be perfect in that scenario as he can play third string in the offense like he should. He's miscast as a #1 option in Atlanta and it's painfully obvious.
Orlando struggled with the terrible Hawks because of their terrible team. Dwight was easily the best player in that series but literally got no help from his teammates who phoned in their performances. Even LeBron struggled when he had to go 1v5 on the Cavs teams of yesteryear.
Miami and Boston are the only teams I'd say were clear favourites over them in a best of seven. Deron and Howard are legit top 10 type superstar players and JJ is an All-Star fwiw. Their biggest issue would be depth, not talent. Indiana would kill that team. The problem isn't Deron and Dwight (his offense is still suspect, he can't pass PERIOD) but they would have nothing else. Joe Johnson even as a #3 option I'm kind of wary of. They would struggle. Think about all the flak Miami caught with 2 top 5 talents and how well they ended up doing, now try that with that lineup that doesn't have anyone close to the level of Lebron/Wade and also in Win Now mode. They will get killed. ETA: I mean seriously - how do you expect that line squad to score against the loaded East with top defenses? You expect Deron Williams to run everything? How do they even score when Williams is off the court, and they have to run Howard by himself or JJ by himself? Look at Miami when they do that: Wade, Lebron or Bosh solo with even marginal role players destroy teams and you expect a lineup featuring a guy who can't be a #1 option in JJ and a guy who can't pass out of a double team and is at the top of the league in turnovers in Dwight Howard to somehow beat the top defensive teams? Really? This has disaster written all over it.
To play a bit of devil's advocate, you could arguably play Deron, JJ or D12 two-at-a-time or solo with bench players and do alright. All three of them have been the lead guy on a team and created offense for others during their careers. D12 might not be great offensively, but he does command double teams and can get people open as he's been doing over in ORL for years. It won't be as good as the Miami big 3, but it wouldn't be as bad as you're making it out to be if they could theoretically get some decent role players for cheap and their owner is willing to pay a significant amount of luxury tax.
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If the Knicks can stumble into the Playoff with their abomination of a team, that Nets team would do it easily.
Indy wouldn't kill that team. I really don't see any MU advantages for Indy over that hypothetical Nets team. Maybe West at PF, but he hardly set the world on fire last year and really isn't the difference maker between the two team.
Deron and Howard are far better than anyone on that Indy team... You could argue JJ is too. That Indy team has good depth but they're like Philly: strong group of high character guys but with a limited ceiling.
Anyway, I think it's a moot point TBH. I doubt the Nets will blow their cap on three guys. They're better off resigning Crash, picking up say Ilyasova and signing Deron. I think that's a more likely scenario for them and gives them additional cap space to fill out the roster.
Deron, JJ, Wallace, Ilyasova and Lopez would be a good starting point for them heading into next year. Would give them some wriggle room to get a bench also.
edit: it was definitely be an all-NBA non-defensive team though.
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He can't pass out of double teams well which is the problem. Not only would he need to become a much better offensive talent but you'd need to find these knockdown shooters. I think you need some major, major bump in Dwight's game to Shaq levels, or for JJ/D-Will to upgrade to LeBron/Wade level. They will have a huge problem scoring vs the East teams, especially the Celtics/Knicks/Pacers who have the bigs to make life hell for Dwight. If he has a bad game I don't trust JJ to step up and fill in at all.
Indiana's bench and wings are clearly better than the Nets. Easily.
Also stumbling into the playoffs isn't the issue - it's WINNING. They have to WIN now. Not "make it to the second round and get applause".
Look, we've just spent 2 years of people bashing Lebron and Wade for not working. And Dwight and D-Will aren't even comparable to those guys in terms of overall talent and the kind of line ups you can run. They won't even be able to afford the same kind of supporting cast as Miami. Seriously WHERE is all the scoring coming from? WHERE?
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Eh? That's a lot of faith in George and Granger for me.
George has a lot of potential, but he isn't near JJ at this stage of their careers,
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Granger + George is better than JJ + anything the Nets have. The Pacers as constructed would kill the Nets. With Hibbert as a ranged shooter + their bench and high defensive rank they would kill a core of JJ + Deron + Dwight. They just can't score enough to matter.
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Yes, it would be expensive. I don't think these moves are enough to move the team into being a championship contender, but this is unquestionably a shot. It's kind of a hopeless shot in the dark - they're basically gunning for a superteam with really ugly contracts and without any real assurance that it will come together.
Keep in mind, if they don't get Dwight, it's a huge massive failure - and I think this move prices them out of that in any feasible reality. But I like this kind of move, it's bold and it adds drama to the NBA storyline. Yes, yes, it's a bad move, but it isn't much worse than sitting around and bottoming out for the next 5 seasons. They'll be in the top 4-6 teams in the East, the papers will write about them, if they get Dwight, it's worth it. If not, I just wrote two paragraphs for no reason.
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Indy just isn't that good defensively. They're 9th best on defensive efficiency and that sounds about right. It would depend on who the Nets filled that roster with, but I imagine Indy wouldn't give guys like Howard, Deron and JJ too many fits on D.
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As I said, Deron, JJ, Wallace, Ilyasova and Lopez is a good team and a realistic one for them next year. I think it could push 4th seed and def make the Playoffs. Unless the Russian guy really wants to splash out, I think Dwight is a pipedream following the JJ trade.
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United States4471 Posts
I think that roster would be pretty pricey as well if you figure that Brook is up for a contract next year, Ilyasova played himself into a nice contract this year and is in high demand, and Deron will be getting max money. Here's my rough estimate
Deron $19M
JJ $19-21M
GWall $10M
Ilyasova $8M
Lopez $11M
Total: $67M-68M
That only leaves $2M-$3M to fill out 8 other spots, which isn't a lot. Plus, they'd have to shed contracts each year because JJ will get $2M more expensive.
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EPT
