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On July 19 2017 03:41 ASoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 03:28 superstartran wrote:
Flicker suffers greatly from single target damage, vs the 3.0 bosses it's pretty much suicide. When I played Oro's flicker in Breach, it had no trouble sustaining on bosses up to T15 (even without flasks up). Why would it be suicide against them now? It'll be slower burning through their HP than it used to be (what build isn't?), but life-based Vaal Pact flicker should still be able to kill bosses just by leeching through their damage, I think. I wouldn't want to try it against Shaper or Guardians, but flicker has always sucked at those. I'll take your word on PF and Vaal skills...I've learned not to believe the "Vaal Spark is dead" hype after so many false alarms, but maybe this time it's true.
Not being able to spell echo is a massive deal for Vaal Spark. People have tried, the skill is dead on arrival as a main skill.
If you've played 3.0 beta you know why I would say Flicker is dead. Flicker relied on being able to burst down bosses, you can't sustain enough vs end game bosses. 3.0 makes bosses (particularly double boss maps in red tier) much harder because of how much longer they live. We're talking about double their HP in most casses. Uber Trio is almost impossible to do without maximum DPS build.
PF can still path as CI, but can no longer use attack based builds to leech instantly. It's a really huge deal. Lower buffer also puts Pathfinder at much more significant risk as a CI build. Vaal Pact kept you from dying because of your massive penetration bonuses from pots, tree, ascendancy, etc. but without Vaal Pact, you're probably gonna kill yourself on rare reflects. You can go life based, but the tree is much more inefficient damage wise, and you lose access to the Witch Pot nodes.
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Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them.
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On July 19 2017 04:48 superstartran wrote:
If you've played 3.0 beta you know why I would say Flicker is dead. Flicker relied on being able to burst down bosses, you can't sustain enough vs end game bosses. 3.0 makes bosses (particularly double boss maps in red tier) much harder because of how much longer they live. We're talking about double their HP in most casses. Uber Trio is almost impossible to do without maximum DPS build.
I never had any trouble as flicker against bosses I couldn't burst down? It worked just like any other Vaal Pact facetank leech build, you heal fast enough that you can just keep punching them.
Like I said, you run into a wall where this is no longer viable at T16 bosses, but up to then the strategy was just "hold down right click" and it worked fine. I did damage faster while flasks were up, but if they ran out and the bosses were still alive it was still no problem to leech enough to stay alive.
I believe that the Uber Trio are rough, though; I think of them as part of the "flicker is bad at T16+" thing.
*edit*On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them.
Zombie AI isn't a big problem on Shaper (or other big boss fights) because their AI causes them to attack a target once you've "marked" it by hitting it with one of your own spells, or otherwise clicking on it. The AI is a problem during map clearing; using a self-cast spell to direct them to attack each pack is annoying, and the fact that they aren't very proactive about attacking until you tell them where to go contributes to that "WHY ARE YOU JUST STANDING THERE" feeling.
As others have said, their damage is great if you can get them to attack stuff. They're just really dumb. If you don't mind constantly micromanaging dumb minions (and the reduction in clearspeed that goes along with that), the build is fine. They're just...really dumb.
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Well the guy in the topic said mapping is OK but you need to focus a lot into giving them massive speed boosts through equipment and stuff. It costs a lot. He asked for GGG to buff their base speed as he identified this as main issue of playing with zombies through all content.
Compared to SRS that ask for way less investment for even better results.
And yes you probably need to enjoy directing them towards packs, but that probably should not be a big problem.
This guy was not playing a mixed build, this was zombie focused one so he didn't have much to do except use offerings, curses and directing zombies.
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On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them.
Zombies don't take aggro off you, they don't do damage as reliably as Spectres or SRS due to their AI/aggro range, that's why people in here call them bad. That's *also* the reason why people who actually did play the build to high levels in HC don't use Zombies. From Uberelite over Karv to Ghazzy.
Being able to do Shaper with them doesn't affect any of this. It's like saying "But I saw someone do Shaper with Golems" to somehow argue how great those are in an SRS or Spectre build.
Can you make a 'viable' build with Zombies as the main focus? Sure (careful, loud). Notice how they lag behind him at all times? That's why people don't use them as "meatshields" because they're simply not doing that job. They even make you *less* safe in some scenarios because you're now more vulnerable to chain mods. Apart from that the clearspeed is abysmal compared to SRS.
The point is that if someone really, really enjoys playing with Zombies then sure, they can do that. Freeze Pulse or Storm Call is also completely viable in that sense. But it has to be said that at this point in time these types of things are objectively bad builds.
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"guys i read a reddit post that said X about balance" is about the worst possible argument you can mak
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On July 19 2017 05:37 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them. Zombies don't take aggro off you, they don't do damage as reliably as Spectres or SRS due to their AI/aggro range, that's why people in here call them bad. That's *also* the reason why people who actually did play the build to high levels in HC don't use Zombies. From Uberelite over Karv to Ghazzy. Being able to do Shaper with them doesn't affect any of this. It's like saying "But I saw someone do Shaper with Golems" to somehow argue how great those are in an SRS or Spectre build. Can you make a 'viable' build with Zombies as the main focus? Sure (careful, loud). Notice how they lag behind him at all times? That's why people don't use them as "meatshields" because they're simply not doing that job. They even make you *less* safe in some scenarios because you're now more vulnerable to chain mods. Apart from that the clearspeed is abysmal compared to SRS. The point is that if someone really, really enjoys playing with Zombies then sure, they can do that. Freeze Pulse or Storm Call is also completely viable in that sense. But it has to be said that at this point in time these types of things are objectively bad builds.
You are not saying anything I didn't say. Only difference is that at start you all screamed Zombies suck which is not true. They are just less effective than other options.
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On July 19 2017 05:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
"guys i read a reddit post that said X about balance" is about the worst possible argument you can mak
Not really. Since I didn't make it up. If any of you want to read it I can go and find a link.
On the other hand none of you said they actually tried to do Zombie build and try to kill Shaper with it. That means that reddit topic knows more what it is talking about than any of you
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On July 19 2017 06:54 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:37 r.Evo wrote:On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them. Zombies don't take aggro off you, they don't do damage as reliably as Spectres or SRS due to their AI/aggro range, that's why people in here call them bad. That's *also* the reason why people who actually did play the build to high levels in HC don't use Zombies. From Uberelite over Karv to Ghazzy. Being able to do Shaper with them doesn't affect any of this. It's like saying "But I saw someone do Shaper with Golems" to somehow argue how great those are in an SRS or Spectre build. Can you make a 'viable' build with Zombies as the main focus? Sure (careful, loud). Notice how they lag behind him at all times? That's why people don't use them as "meatshields" because they're simply not doing that job. They even make you *less* safe in some scenarios because you're now more vulnerable to chain mods. Apart from that the clearspeed is abysmal compared to SRS. The point is that if someone really, really enjoys playing with Zombies then sure, they can do that. Freeze Pulse or Storm Call is also completely viable in that sense. But it has to be said that at this point in time these types of things are objectively bad builds. You are not saying anything I didn't say. Only difference is that at start you all screamed Zombies suck which is not true. They are just less effective than other options.
"Less effective than other options" is merely a nice way of saying something sucks in PoE. At this point in the game quite literally everything is 'viable' from Elemental Hit to Freeze Pulse to Zombies. They still all suck.
What started this discussion was you saying:
On July 18 2017 06:21 -Archangel- wrote:
For HC make sure you put lots of points into life and also use zombies so they can distract enemies for you.
And also:
On July 18 2017 09:16 -Archangel- wrote:
Why waste time summoning decoy totems that your passives don't buff when you can be casting SRS to kill your enemies and you resummon zombies after tougher battles. Good enough for a casual player not interested in doing Shaper runs.
It's your insistence that somehow Zombies "distract enemies" in the classic fallacy that they're tanky so they must be good meatshields that made multiple people point out that no, they're not great meatshields, they're not great damage dealers aka "they suck". And yes, Decoy Totem (or even a Skeleton Totem) does this exact thing better when it actually matters.
PoE has lots of things that suck but if you throw enough gear at it (or are satisfied with a slow enough gameplay) they become completely 'viable' in the sense that you can do most if not all content with them. People have done Atziri with EB+CI, that doesn't make that combination good either.
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On July 19 2017 06:56 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:53 Sn0_Man wrote:
"guys i read a reddit post that said X about balance" is about the worst possible argument you can mak Not really. Since I didn't make it up. If any of you want to read it I can go and find a link. On the other hand none of you said they actually tried to do Zombie build and try to kill Shaper with it. That means that reddit topic knows more what it is talking about than any of you
Just stop. That's not some hidden secret and not a good argument. It'd be like linking someone a Freeze Pulse build killing Shaper and trying to argue from there that it's a great skill that doesn't suck.
We have multiple people around who did try to use Zombies at some point over the last couple years, some more recently, some less recently. The most important part is that someone like Lag, me or the others commenting on this won't just spew their own personal opinion or what they read at some point in some reddit post but the consensus of what they learned during their time playing PoE. You're free to ask genuinely good players why they're not playing Zombie builds (or even why they are in some cases) and you'll more or less get very similar answers to what you've just been told by us.
Hell, I can even link you to GGG developer responses specifically pointing out that their AI got changed a while ago to be following minions that don't engage aggressively like SRS or Skeletons - that's what the video I linked earlier illustrates perfectly as well.
The overall point has stayed the exact same throughout all of this: If someone genuinely loves Zombies they'll find ways to make them work. However, the build will neither be cost-efficient nor actually good compared to other options. It's completely fine to make such a choice as long as it's an informed choice that understands this would be a way of playing the game in hard mode. SSF btw.
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On July 19 2017 05:11 ASoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 04:48 superstartran wrote:
If you've played 3.0 beta you know why I would say Flicker is dead. Flicker relied on being able to burst down bosses, you can't sustain enough vs end game bosses. 3.0 makes bosses (particularly double boss maps in red tier) much harder because of how much longer they live. We're talking about double their HP in most casses. Uber Trio is almost impossible to do without maximum DPS build. I never had any trouble as flicker against bosses I couldn't burst down? It worked just like any other Vaal Pact facetank leech build, you heal fast enough that you can just keep punching them. Like I said, you run into a wall where this is no longer viable at T16 bosses, but up to then the strategy was just "hold down right click" and it worked fine. I did damage faster while flasks were up, but if they ran out and the bosses were still alive it was still no problem to leech enough to stay alive. I believe that the Uber Trio are rough, though; I think of them as part of the "flicker is bad at T16+" thing. *edit* Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them. Zombie AI isn't a big problem on Shaper (or other big boss fights) because their AI causes them to attack a target once you've "marked" it by hitting it with one of your own spells, or otherwise clicking on it. The AI is a problem during map clearing; using a self-cast spell to direct them to attack each pack is annoying, and the fact that they aren't very proactive about attacking until you tell them where to go contributes to that "WHY ARE YOU JUST STANDING THERE" feeling. As others have said, their damage is great if you can get them to attack stuff. They're just really dumb. If you don't mind constantly micromanaging dumb minions (and the reduction in clearspeed that goes along with that), the build is fine. They're just...really dumb.
You need to actually play 3.0 beta to understand why Flicker is not that viable anymore unless you are supremely geared. Flicker strike builds already had issues with single target, it's exacerbated by the fact that all bosses are now double hp the values of 2.6
Please, if you haven't played 3.0 beta don't say what does and doesn't work.
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On July 19 2017 09:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:11 ASoo wrote:On July 19 2017 04:48 superstartran wrote:
If you've played 3.0 beta you know why I would say Flicker is dead. Flicker relied on being able to burst down bosses, you can't sustain enough vs end game bosses. 3.0 makes bosses (particularly double boss maps in red tier) much harder because of how much longer they live. We're talking about double their HP in most casses. Uber Trio is almost impossible to do without maximum DPS build. I never had any trouble as flicker against bosses I couldn't burst down? It worked just like any other Vaal Pact facetank leech build, you heal fast enough that you can just keep punching them. Like I said, you run into a wall where this is no longer viable at T16 bosses, but up to then the strategy was just "hold down right click" and it worked fine. I did damage faster while flasks were up, but if they ran out and the bosses were still alive it was still no problem to leech enough to stay alive. I believe that the Uber Trio are rough, though; I think of them as part of the "flicker is bad at T16+" thing. *edit* On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them. Zombie AI isn't a big problem on Shaper (or other big boss fights) because their AI causes them to attack a target once you've "marked" it by hitting it with one of your own spells, or otherwise clicking on it. The AI is a problem during map clearing; using a self-cast spell to direct them to attack each pack is annoying, and the fact that they aren't very proactive about attacking until you tell them where to go contributes to that "WHY ARE YOU JUST STANDING THERE" feeling. As others have said, their damage is great if you can get them to attack stuff. They're just really dumb. If you don't mind constantly micromanaging dumb minions (and the reduction in clearspeed that goes along with that), the build is fine. They're just...really dumb. You need to actually play 3.0 beta to understand why Flicker is not that viable anymore unless you are supremely geared. Flicker strike builds already had issues with single target, it's exacerbated by the fact that all bosses are now double hp the values of 2.6 Please, if you haven't played 3.0 beta don't say what does and doesn't work.
Can't you just do the cyclone/flicker and ruthless/multistrike swap play like a normal melee char for bosses ? Gem swap takes time but now since bosses are tanky the time lost aren't high comparatively anymore.
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On July 19 2017 09:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 05:11 ASoo wrote:On July 19 2017 04:48 superstartran wrote:
If you've played 3.0 beta you know why I would say Flicker is dead. Flicker relied on being able to burst down bosses, you can't sustain enough vs end game bosses. 3.0 makes bosses (particularly double boss maps in red tier) much harder because of how much longer they live. We're talking about double their HP in most casses. Uber Trio is almost impossible to do without maximum DPS build. I never had any trouble as flicker against bosses I couldn't burst down? It worked just like any other Vaal Pact facetank leech build, you heal fast enough that you can just keep punching them. Like I said, you run into a wall where this is no longer viable at T16 bosses, but up to then the strategy was just "hold down right click" and it worked fine. I did damage faster while flasks were up, but if they ran out and the bosses were still alive it was still no problem to leech enough to stay alive. I believe that the Uber Trio are rough, though; I think of them as part of the "flicker is bad at T16+" thing. *edit* On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them. Zombie AI isn't a big problem on Shaper (or other big boss fights) because their AI causes them to attack a target once you've "marked" it by hitting it with one of your own spells, or otherwise clicking on it. The AI is a problem during map clearing; using a self-cast spell to direct them to attack each pack is annoying, and the fact that they aren't very proactive about attacking until you tell them where to go contributes to that "WHY ARE YOU JUST STANDING THERE" feeling. As others have said, their damage is great if you can get them to attack stuff. They're just really dumb. If you don't mind constantly micromanaging dumb minions (and the reduction in clearspeed that goes along with that), the build is fine. They're just...really dumb. You need to actually play 3.0 beta to understand why Flicker is not that viable anymore unless you are supremely geared. Flicker strike builds already had issues with single target, it's exacerbated by the fact that all bosses are now double hp the values of 2.6 Please, if you haven't played 3.0 beta don't say what does and doesn't work.
I'm playing the beta, but not as flicker. Have you run it in 3.0?
As ED and SRS (what I've played in the last two rounds of beta), bosses have taken noticeably longer, but haven't been more dangerous (except that if you're doing a boss that can kill you, you have longer to fuck up).
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On July 19 2017 10:00 ASoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 09:18 superstartran wrote:On July 19 2017 05:11 ASoo wrote:On July 19 2017 04:48 superstartran wrote:
If you've played 3.0 beta you know why I would say Flicker is dead. Flicker relied on being able to burst down bosses, you can't sustain enough vs end game bosses. 3.0 makes bosses (particularly double boss maps in red tier) much harder because of how much longer they live. We're talking about double their HP in most casses. Uber Trio is almost impossible to do without maximum DPS build. I never had any trouble as flicker against bosses I couldn't burst down? It worked just like any other Vaal Pact facetank leech build, you heal fast enough that you can just keep punching them. Like I said, you run into a wall where this is no longer viable at T16 bosses, but up to then the strategy was just "hold down right click" and it worked fine. I did damage faster while flasks were up, but if they ran out and the bosses were still alive it was still no problem to leech enough to stay alive. I believe that the Uber Trio are rough, though; I think of them as part of the "flicker is bad at T16+" thing. *edit* On July 19 2017 04:57 -Archangel- wrote:
Guys there is a Zombies topic on reddit I read recently where people that actually played zombies until endgame (Shaper) talk about them. AI is not the problem, their speed is and need to resummon a whole bunch of them when Shaper and similar level enemies one shot them.
I think I will trust people that actually spent time and currency to play all content with them over you.
Also Zombies die fast to ground DoT effects and that is also a huge problem when fighting Shaper with them. Zombie AI isn't a big problem on Shaper (or other big boss fights) because their AI causes them to attack a target once you've "marked" it by hitting it with one of your own spells, or otherwise clicking on it. The AI is a problem during map clearing; using a self-cast spell to direct them to attack each pack is annoying, and the fact that they aren't very proactive about attacking until you tell them where to go contributes to that "WHY ARE YOU JUST STANDING THERE" feeling. As others have said, their damage is great if you can get them to attack stuff. They're just really dumb. If you don't mind constantly micromanaging dumb minions (and the reduction in clearspeed that goes along with that), the build is fine. They're just...really dumb. You need to actually play 3.0 beta to understand why Flicker is not that viable anymore unless you are supremely geared. Flicker strike builds already had issues with single target, it's exacerbated by the fact that all bosses are now double hp the values of 2.6 Please, if you haven't played 3.0 beta don't say what does and doesn't work. I'm playing the beta, but not as flicker. Have you run it in 3.0? As ED and SRS (what I've played in the last two rounds of beta), bosses have taken noticeably longer, but haven't been more dangerous (except that if you're doing a boss that can kill you, you have longer to fuck up).
ED and SRS are two of the strongest builds right now.
Considering like 50% of the bosses can kill you with any damage mods, Flicker becomes much more dangerous in endgame scenarios with double boss hp. More chances for you to fuck up and die. Considering I still randomly take a bullshit death with Cyclone once in a blue moon, yeah, you're probably going to die with Flicker considering the risk is much higher.
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I think you're underestimating the strength of mom and trickster, and how many builds that opens up. Ele buzz saw is stupid strong as well on beta, and scion is finally viable again. It wouldn't take too much to bring other skills into contention and have a huge amount of options available
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On July 19 2017 13:53 bo1b wrote:
I think you're underestimating the strength of mom and trickster, and how many builds that opens up. Ele buzz saw is stupid strong as well on beta, and scion is finally viable again. It wouldn't take too much to bring other skills into contention and have a huge amount of options available
MoM is really strong, the real problem is what spell are you going to use, because there's not a whole lot left. You've got RF/SRS/Firestorm and uh, a handful of other spells.
Ele Buzz saw is ok. It's not that good. It's about as good as it was in 2.6
What viable options as Scion? Every other class still does what the Scion does but better.
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On July 19 2017 14:03 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2017 13:53 bo1b wrote:
I think you're underestimating the strength of mom and trickster, and how many builds that opens up. Ele buzz saw is stupid strong as well on beta, and scion is finally viable again. It wouldn't take too much to bring other skills into contention and have a huge amount of options available MoM is really strong, the real problem is what spell are you going to use, because there's not a whole lot left. You've got RF/SRS/Firestorm and uh, a handful of other spells. Ele Buzz saw is ok. It's not that good. It's about as good as it was in 2.6 What viable options as Scion? Every other class still does what the Scion does but better.
One example I keep running into is for Crit builds. Scion Assassin is good enough to remove the gem in most scenarios and you can get great goodies on top. Scion Pathfinder (combined with nodes) allows for 100% immunity to status ailments. Scion Raider gets you free Frenzy/Onslaught.
In quite a few cases I'd argue it's definitely a better option than Assassin, Pathfinder/Raider is a bit of a different beast. As for what bo1b said though, my bet is on MoM Trickster being a big deal. Kinda curious what Ele buzzsaw builds he referred to though. :3
On top of what you mentioned is EK nova untouched? That'd be another bullshit OP thing you can roll with. RF/ED for bossing can also likely be a thing again, just better. And don't forget the changes to affixes that should allow e.g. bow chars to push higher life pools again.
Berserker VP anything is also pretty dumb to be honest, it was just overshadowed by CI builds.
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In other news I just popped my cherry after all this time. Credits go to Alurr for the donation towards the Demifunding. :3
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2.6 Ele buzz saw is stupid as hell, and anyone who hasn't experienced near howa levels of stupidity - well geared howa levels btw - for about 10% of the cost should probably experience it before declaring it to be merely ok. The builds that are neutered are double dipping based builds, which unfortunately include my soon to be favourite build of all time in coc burning vortex. Rip.
Also scion has a lot going for it with certain combinations, assassin comes to mind as evo said. The power of free jewels is not trivial either btw.
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On July 19 2017 15:29 r.Evo wrote:In other news I just popped my cherry after all this time. Credits go to Alurr for the donation towards the Demifunding. :3
Gratz, it was about time 
side note, can I get an invite from someone to the beta guild? char name SuperNoob ty, ty
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Any one know if it's possible to roll +2 chaos gems to bow?
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EPT
