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On June 07 2011 15:38 Spicy Pepper wrote:Miami-Dallas (NBA Finals Game 3): Initial review of ref calls gives Miami a 4-point advantageThat's the headline of refcalls.com on Game 3. If you guys are just going to spout opinions on the refs, then whatever, but some of you are just making statements about your opinions, while acting like you're more knowledgeable about this stuff, when you're clearly not. Basically quit talking out your ass. RefCalls.com does the best breakdown of NBA refereeing, a lower priority topic than I'd like to discuss personally, but at least if you're going to discuss it, stop making stuff up.
They have a strange way to quantify it though. Doesn't it mean all the loose ball fouls in favour of Dallas don't count as long as they miss ? (which happened a lot in this defensive game)
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Well it's kind of hard to blame them for playing that way. They have 3 destructive 1 on 1 players so unlike "normal offenses" where the Pick N Roll results in a pass, or off ball screens (they do do this though) they just end up going to the foul line.
Also remember they don't play Ilgauskas in the starting line up anymore, so running plays for Joel Anthony isn't a priority.
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On June 07 2011 20:04 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 01:51 XaI)CyRiC wrote:On June 06 2011 18:33 MilesTeg wrote:
Miami is such a horrible team. Iso after iso, a few lucky shots and some great selling to the refs... It's these kinds of outlandish statements made with no factual support that irk the regulars in this thread. Please try to at least back up your arguments somehow. Most of their half court offense comes from isolating Wade or Lebron, or a simple pick and roll with the other 3 players standing in the corner picking their noses, which is bad for the evolution of the game IMO. They have one of the ugliest offence I've seen in an NBA finals recently. In fact Cleveland was the only other one as ugly. In the past we've had teams like San Antonio, Boston, Detroit, Dallas, even Los Angeles dominating the league. All of them have good ball movement and a good offensive flow. As a fan, going back to this kind of basketball seems like a huge step backwards. I'll add that's it's not an outlandish statement, it's an expression of my opinion on the estethics of Miami's offence.
I'm not sure, or are you saying this year's best regular season team has a prettier looking offense than Miami?
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On June 08 2011 00:28 matko5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 20:04 MilesTeg wrote:On June 07 2011 01:51 XaI)CyRiC wrote:On June 06 2011 18:33 MilesTeg wrote:
Miami is such a horrible team. Iso after iso, a few lucky shots and some great selling to the refs... It's these kinds of outlandish statements made with no factual support that irk the regulars in this thread. Please try to at least back up your arguments somehow. Most of their half court offense comes from isolating Wade or Lebron, or a simple pick and roll with the other 3 players standing in the corner picking their noses, which is bad for the evolution of the game IMO. They have one of the ugliest offence I've seen in an NBA finals recently. In fact Cleveland was the only other one as ugly. In the past we've had teams like San Antonio, Boston, Detroit, Dallas, even Los Angeles dominating the league. All of them have good ball movement and a good offensive flow. As a fan, going back to this kind of basketball seems like a huge step backwards. I'll add that's it's not an outlandish statement, it's an expression of my opinion on the estethics of Miami's offence. I'm not sure, or are you saying this year's best regular season team has a prettier looking offense than Miami?
I don't know if he said that earlier, if he did you should quote it in your post as well. But no where in the post you just quoted does it say Chicago had a pretty offense.
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On June 08 2011 00:28 matko5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 20:04 MilesTeg wrote:On June 07 2011 01:51 XaI)CyRiC wrote:On June 06 2011 18:33 MilesTeg wrote:
Miami is such a horrible team. Iso after iso, a few lucky shots and some great selling to the refs... It's these kinds of outlandish statements made with no factual support that irk the regulars in this thread. Please try to at least back up your arguments somehow. Most of their half court offense comes from isolating Wade or Lebron, or a simple pick and roll with the other 3 players standing in the corner picking their noses, which is bad for the evolution of the game IMO. They have one of the ugliest offence I've seen in an NBA finals recently. In fact Cleveland was the only other one as ugly. In the past we've had teams like San Antonio, Boston, Detroit, Dallas, even Los Angeles dominating the league. All of them have good ball movement and a good offensive flow. As a fan, going back to this kind of basketball seems like a huge step backwards. I'll add that's it's not an outlandish statement, it's an expression of my opinion on the estethics of Miami's offence. I'm not sure, or are you saying this year's best regular season team has a prettier looking offense than Miami?
He lost me when he mentioned San Antonio, Boston, and Detroit - all with offenses with proclivities to play slow ball. It doesn't matter if they were efficient and moved the ball - the offenses were ugly to watch. Not to mention that in the playoffs, every single defensive minded team slows the game down to a grinding halt. The teams that don't, well, get bounced. The Lakers were an exception to the rule - every other team that has won the last 12 Championships played like snails, and the Lakers only got away with their mediocre defense because they had a perfect combination of skilled swingmen and post players fitting into the triangle.
Yes, Miami's half-court offense is extremely rough, but like previous posters have said, it's how the team is structured. And, personally, I'd rather watch superstars like LBJ and Wade go 1 on 5 than "beautiful" team ball played by lesser players - because on games where they do explode, it is a sight to behold.
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United States4471 Posts
On June 07 2011 16:08 matko5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 08:43 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Discussion point 4 on this page is pretty interesting to me because it seems the general opinion from most fans is that MIA is dominating the series for the most part, with the Mavs only making desperate comebacks at the very end. "4. In 12 quarters, Mavs have won 5, Heat 4, with 3 ties." http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/news/story?page=5-on-5-110606If that's accurate, and I see no reason why it wouldn't be, then this series is about as close as you can get and the Mavs are actually doing quite well considering that no one on DAL other than Dirk has stepped up at any point in the series. Credit goes to MIA's defense, but I can't get away from my impression while watching the games that the Mavs are missing a lot of shots they usually make. I would disagree. It's always Miami with the lead this series, and Dallas catching up. For moments, when the Heat are on a run, they look pretty desperate (I have to mention game 2 when Head were on their roll, but we know how that finished). Game 3 was even more like that. The only thing that kept them in the game are Nowitzki and some loose ball fouls that could have gone either way. I can't help but feel that Dallas is on a verge of breaking down, being on a loosing end of a 10+ Heat streak and never recovering. But that's just me.
If it's true that the Mavs have won 5 quarters with the Heat having won 4, then I don't see how the statement "[i]t's always Miami with the lead this series" can be true. I guess you could argue that looking at quarters is not entirely accurate, since it may just mean that the Mavs are just finishing quarters off strong after trailing throughout. However, the Mavs' ability to take the lead at the end of a little more than half of all the quarters so far this game still suggests to me that they're not being dominated as much as people think.
Another factoid that supports how close of the series is is the one put up today: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/29968/how-many-minutes-can-dirk-nowitzki-play
That article shows that the Mavs are actually significantly ahead of MIA when Dirk is on the floor as far as the series goes, which suggests to me that the Mavs are, again, just one or two teammates stepping up and making shots away from winning these games.
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United States4471 Posts
On June 07 2011 20:04 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 01:51 XaI)CyRiC wrote:On June 06 2011 18:33 MilesTeg wrote:
Miami is such a horrible team. Iso after iso, a few lucky shots and some great selling to the refs... It's these kinds of outlandish statements made with no factual support that irk the regulars in this thread. Please try to at least back up your arguments somehow. Most of their half court offense comes from isolating Wade or Lebron, or a simple pick and roll with the other 3 players standing in the corner picking their noses, which is bad for the evolution of the game IMO. They have one of the ugliest offence I've seen in an NBA finals recently. In fact Cleveland was the only other one as ugly. In the past we've had teams like San Antonio, Boston, Detroit, Dallas, even Los Angeles dominating the league. All of them have good ball movement and a good offensive flow. As a fan, going back to this kind of basketball seems like a huge step backwards. I'll add that's it's not an outlandish statement, it's an expression of my opinion on the estethics of Miami's offence.
A much better post, as it actually explains your opinion and allows for some discussion. As for your points:
Your original statement was that Miami is such a horrible team, which IS an outlandish statement considering the fact that they're in the Finals right now. There may be some facts that support the opinion behind the statement, but it's still outlandish in and of itself simply because you're referring to a team that finished with 58 games and made it to the Finals despite the fact that it's a completely new team that dealt with significant injuries to key players (Haslem and Miller) and had to beat some tough competition to get there. Calling them overrated or underwhelming on offense is one thing, but stating that they're horrible is another. You don't make statements like that without some explanation because of how logically inconsistent it is on its face.
Agreed that their offense leaves a lot to be desired. However, they're a brand new team who was missing key players for a lot of games, so it's not surprising that their offense isn't as polished as some of the others. They're also a very top-heavy team that is built around the premise of surrounding three amazing talents with affordable role players who can do the dirty work and spread defenses out. You may dislike that type of offense, but it is an effective strategy as we've seen in other elite teams. Also, credit should still be given to Lebron and Wade, who have made a lot of good passes and effectively created offense for teammates who can't create their own. As some others have said, the Mavs' defense has also contributed to the "ugliness" of their offense as it has done a pretty good job of keeping the Heat from doing what they want for the most part.
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On June 07 2011 16:07 Ace wrote:Then I'm getting the impression he himself is talking out of his ass and not reading the thread. People in here were discussing foul calls, where as that site was discussing MISSED calls such as traveling violations. Then there's this: Show nested quote +
Excluding missed travels, we counted the refs missing or getting wrong 12 calls that favored Dallas resulting in 5 points being scored directly because of those calls, and 5 calls/no-calls that favored Miami resulting in 4 points. That’s a 1-point advantage for Dallas.
And next they talk about how the NBA rulebook is doesn't do a good job of explaining how to judge the Mario Chalmers play. So it didn't really have much to do with the discussion going on in the last few pages anyway.
Please, there's clearly an incorrect pro-Mavs refereeing sentiment in this thread, when the truth is that the refereeing was fairly close. When people are discussing the foul calls, they're doing it with the implication that the refereeing favored the team that was on the bad end of those foul calls. The non-calls are a huge factor, and often not discussed due to their bias, ignorance, and the fact that it's not emotionally self-serving.
Is this the thread you were reading? Where people made these following statements? I'll bold some people's sentiments for you.
On June 06 2011 12:11 Qaatar wrote:
It's like the refs are compensating for the '06 Finals in this series. Miami had twice as many fouls called on them. Kind of funny when LBJ and Wade are on the team, and it's not like they aren't driving against the zone...
On June 06 2011 12:22 citi.zen wrote:
I also thought the refs were very pro-mavs in this game. Two Mia offensive fouls were questionable, followed by a non-call on Lebron. That got Dallas a huge lift at a critical time. Sadly, they blew it.
On June 06 2011 13:03 Ducci wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2011 12:11 Qaatar wrote:
It's like the refs are compensating for the '06 Finals in this series. Miami had twice as many fouls called on them. Kind of funny when LBJ and Wade are on the team, and it's not like they aren't driving against the zone... It does feel this way, especially after tonights game. There were a ton of loose ball fouls called at the end of the game when the foul on lebrons was a pretty obvious foul that wasn't called. Although I feel that miami needs to play better. They dominate the mavs in spurts but then also can't seem to score for the life of them.
The point of the article is that game 3 was not as pro-Mavs as people would like to think. Basically this is a simple lesson in that people emphasize the impact of what they saw over what they didn't.
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If a team has a player standing in the corner for a 3 by design, that's generally a sign of a good offense not a bad one. Coach Popovich pretty much made it a staple of the Spurs offense, as I'm sure alot of you recall Bruce Bowen being incapable of hitting a shot from anywhere else. So they work the strong side, and swing passes, beating the defensive rotation for the corner 3. If you guys saw the first Heat-Spurs game this year, the Spurs blew them out because of the way the Heat were trying to hedge the pnr, while the Spurs hit their 3pt shooters often on initial passes. Of course, the Heat adjusted in their 2nd game  .
I'd like to see the Heat run more pick and roll with Wade and Lebron, but maybe they rather keep one as a weakside slasher to spread the Mavs defense. A Wade/Lebron pnr really doesn't happen that often, and I don't remember it ever happening in the beginning of the year.
Also, iirc Lebron isn't really dominating in iso spots against Marion that much, mainly because Wade has had a major advantage against whomever the Mavs put on him.
As for ugly halfcourt offense, I think it's true with Miami. I'm not sure if it's the coaching or simply that their pieces don't mesh well offensively, but in the halfcourt it's not pretty. I feel like there isn't enough weakside movement in their offense, but it is just their first year together so we'll see. However, some people may enjoy watching iso offense.
The sick thing is, I think the Heat still had one of the top 5 offenses in the league this year. I'm not sure how much of it was due to James and Wade beating up on crappy teams, and how much of it was in transition from the great defense, it's a scary barometer for them to be that effective with seemingly having more potential left over.
Still upset with game 3, but I'm sure Dallas will win game 4 and 5 and 6 :p. /sigh
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I hope the refs will try to force a win for dallas. NO ONE want's MIA to win.
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i'll be so shattered if Dirk doesn't get his ring this year. it's only gonna get harder for him ;{
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Barea starting for the Mavs for only the third time this season. Seems like Carlisle is just trying anything he can to prevent a sweep at home. Opening minutes should be interesting.
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Go Miami!! 
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United States4471 Posts
My guess is that they're starting Barea with the hope that it might get him going early and carry over into the rest of the game. They need someone to step up on offense, and Terry is an unlikely candidate with Lebron guarding him, particularly after the trashtalk after Game 3. Apart from Dirk, Barea is the only player on DAL capable of generating offense for others, so it's a worthwhile gamble.
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United States4471 Posts
Let's see the breakdown in this thread.
Poll: Who do you want to win the Finals?Dallas Mavericks (15) 65% Miami Heat (8) 35% 23 total votes Your vote: Who do you want to win the Finals? (Vote): Dallas Mavericks
(Vote): Miami Heat
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You should start that poll when more germans are awake :D
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Man I hope the Mavs can take tonight, That sucks that they barely lost that last game. I hate the Heat.
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United States4471 Posts
On June 08 2011 10:16 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
You should start that poll when more germans are awake :D
Feel free to quote it later to give them a chance to vote
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I almost want the Mavs to win today just because almost all of their fans are actually fans, and not mostly bandwagoners who are pretending to cheer for their home team (mumble grumble grr)...the Heat games during the Finals had a practically depressing crowd; during game 2 when the Mavs caught up a ton, the "defense, defense" chant would have been drowned out by a middle-school basketball game. ><
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EPT
