EPTAlso helps that my first pack I opened had an Expeditions Breeding Pool in it.
Magic: The Gathering - Page 619
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
Also helps that my first pack I opened had an Expeditions Breeding Pool in it. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
Dig banned in legacy, chalice + Dig restricted in Vintage. Looks like legacy is pretty much going to go pre-khans, I guess? | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
Then again, it's a horrible draw later in the game and won't do much against the fair decks. I think it might price Miracles in particular out of the format though. | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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VaderNL
Netherlands139 Posts
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
Also, there looks like there's a bit of a catch-22 with it, which is that in order for it to be effective it's pretty much gotta be out turn one, which makes including 3 a minimum for sideboard tech and it's better with a full play set. However, it's an abysmal top deck, and including multiple copies just worsens the likelihood of peeling one. | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
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malcram
2752 Posts
black vise, ivory tower, hypnotic specters all in the same deck lol... | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On September 29 2015 23:53 deth2munkies wrote: It heavily punishes Miracles and combo decks while being bad against fair decks. I like the card. Black Vice is terrible against miracles since Miracles plays permanents. Turn 1 top, turn 2 counterbalance, turn 3 clique is the opposite of what you want Vice against. Black Vice is great in burn vs combo decks because it increases your bolt density. They will normally have a full 7 cards in hand until they go off. So your first Black Vice is as good as a bolt allowing you to side out utility cards like Sulfuric Vortex. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On September 30 2015 12:33 Thieving Magpie wrote: Black Vice is terrible against miracles since Miracles plays permanents. Turn 1 top, turn 2 counterbalance, turn 3 clique is the opposite of what you want Vice against. Black Vice is great in burn vs combo decks because it increases your bolt density. They will normally have a full 7 cards in hand until they go off. So your first Black Vice is as good as a bolt allowing you to side out utility cards like Sulfuric Vortex. T1 Ponder or Brainstorm is still insanely common for that deck, which still results in 6 damage from the Vise if you're on the play. Even if they top, it's still 1 mana, 5 damage to the face. It's one of those cards I'd side out on the draw, though. | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
On September 30 2015 23:04 deth2munkies wrote: T1 Ponder or Brainstorm is still insanely common for that deck, which still results in 6 damage from the Vise if you're on the play. Even if they top, it's still 1 mana, 5 damage to the face. It's one of those cards I'd side out on the draw, though. The problem with this though is that if they force of will your next spell, then they solve their issue as well. Black vice basically cancels card advantage from FoW. If they have a FoW in hand they don't even need to use it on the vice because it will solve hand problem on your next turn. Are you supposed to not play any more spells and lose tempo just to hope they don't play permanents the next turn? And again, I'm just skeptical of sideboard cards that are 1) only good on the play and 2) require a large number of sb slots because you reliably need it in your opener and 3) are god-awful top decks in a deck that needs top decking. Magpie is right, combo is where it's at, but there's really only two decks it's useful against: omnitell and storm. The omnitell issue doesn't exist anymore because without dig that deck is dead, and Storm could probably play around it, too, by dumping some of their 0 CmC cards, although admittedly this would slow them down. But I just like prostatic pillar better there. | ||
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Naracs_Duc
746 Posts
On September 30 2015 23:04 deth2munkies wrote: T1 Ponder or Brainstorm is still insanely common for that deck, which still results in 6 damage from the Vise if you're on the play. Even if they top, it's still 1 mana, 5 damage to the face. It's one of those cards I'd side out on the draw, though. Here's the thing. Opening hand 7 Land Ponder 6 Land brainstorm 5 Land top 3 In 3 turns they can go from 7 cards to 3 cards after only casting one permanent. What if they went first? Them: Turn 1 Ponder (6 cards in hand You: Turn 1 Vice Them: Take 2 from vice, land Brainstrom fetch (5 cards in hand) You: Something else Them: Take 1 from vice: land ponder (4 cards in hand) You: Something else Them: Take 0 from vice Black Vice in essence is only a bolt against a cantrip deck assuming you play it on the first turn and is bad turn 2 onwards. HOWEVER Bolts are good and ones that sometimes hits for more is always worth testing. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Naracs_Duc
746 Posts
On October 01 2015 04:04 Sn0_Man wrote: I seem to recall caleb durward running a series where he tested taking certain cards off the legacy banlist and while admittedly far from definitive, it showed black vice as being pretty useless even in burn Wasn't what he tested in UR "burn" with Stifle/Waste/Daze and his conclusion was that it was a bad Delver | ||
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BallinWitStalin
1177 Posts
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Naracs_Duc
746 Posts
On October 01 2015 08:26 BallinWitStalin wrote: It's still not better in burn. If its not useful in Burn then its not useful anywhere. On turn 1 its a little better than Lava Spike On turns 2-3 its arguable as good as lava spike on average (dealing 2, then 1 damage over two turns) On turn 4 onward it is worse than lava spike If your burn deck could use 1-2 more Lava Spikes, then Black Vice is one of your options. Otherwise it is a bad card. | ||
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DEN1ED
United States1087 Posts
On October 01 2015 03:30 Naracs_Duc wrote: Here's the thing. Opening hand 7 Land Ponder 6 Land brainstorm 5 Land top 3 In 3 turns they can go from 7 cards to 3 cards after only casting one permanent. What if they went first? Um so they are skipping 2 draw steps? I'll take it. | ||
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GoSuNamhciR
125 Posts
Miracles also gets a lot better with dig ban. Dig was generally sat on top to counter other digs, and maybe ugin if against 12 post. BUG/Grixis Delver, Esper Mentor, Omni-tell take huge hits with the ban as well. I am excited to see more diversity of fair decks in the format again. I am even somewhat hopeful I can sleeve my goblin deck up once more.. altho I will likely be bringing Miracles to GP SeaTac. I am sad that solidarity (already T3) is essentially unplayable again, I am assuming Feline will go back to normal high tide/candelabra. | ||
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WindWolf
Sweden11767 Posts
From the products that I pre-ordered I ended up getting some pretty good cards (Ulamog, Undergrowth Chmapion, Ob Nixilis and 9 tango lands being the best pulls). Then come release draft. I ended up losing two matches 1-2 with a R/W aggro allies deck before getting a bye in the last round. And when it's time to hand out prices, everyone ends up getting four release-promo Blight Herder because apparently my LGS got so many. But I had fun (which is the most important thing for me) and I certainly want to do more BfZ drafts in the future | ||
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