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On September 27 2015 11:39 deth2munkies wrote:
Here's one thing I hate about limited in this format: Ingest cards. I don't like any of them. There are no Ingest creatures that are efficient for their mana costs, Ingest itself is almost never relevant to winning the game, and Ingest adds no more strategic depth to a board state. The ONLY reason that Ingest exists is to serve the Processors. Almost all of the processors are fairly costed (not even undercosted!) creatures with abilities that only trigger when cards have been exiled. I like some of the processors, but the fact that you HAVE to have ingest to enable them (you can't pack enough instants and sorceries to consistently enable them) means that they're fairly costed with their ability, but it's really a drawback ability in terms of deckbuilding because you have to play shitty creatures to enable them.
It's this kind of forced synergy that makes games like Yu-Gi-Oh so fucking horrible. For those unfamiliar, a lot of the combos in YGH literally NAME the cards that they work with and require specific cards with specific names to do shit. Old school example: There was a super powerful creature called Valkyrion the Magna Warrior (I looked it up), and the only way to get him into play was to sacrifice creatures named Alpha the Magnet Warrior, Beta the Magnet Warrior, and Gamma the Magnet Warrior, which were all inefficient creatures. That's not the exception: that's the standard for combos in the game. So you're super constrained in deckbuilding from the beginning.
Having synergy this forced in a limited environment is unprecedented. Even cards like original Zendikar allies had a lot of creatures that were fine on their own or only needed 1-2 support cards to be good enough to make the cut. BFZ forces you to play shitty creatures to play decent creatures, and that kind of ticks me off.
I'd say there are a few that are fairly costed ingest creatures that do fine on their own, I had plenty of success with the 2cmc black 2/2 for example. I think it's more "does this minion fit with vanilla test" than "oh god I want that ingest so badly mang"
I'm newish tho so don't take my word for it, just seems to be how it played out for me.
Funnily though since I was playing an aggressive deck ingest helped me when it hit me more often than not since it cycled through my excess lands more often than not :^)
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On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common.
Mist Intruder is kinda terrible. The 1/4 unblockable is way better if that's what you're into.
I actually found that you don't need Ingest at all to fuel processors. Check out my writeup of my prerelease experience this time around.
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He's basically a 2mana flyer and me meta has very little fliers so I may be overrating him. The 1/4 unblockable is decent too but there are the 2 mini eldraszi lords at that mana cost iirc, the ones that gives +1/+0 and +0/+1.
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On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common.
He's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. He's a fucking Storm Crow, less awesome, but just as unplayable. Even if Ingest was a thing, effectively milling 1 when it hits them is not useful in limited or constructed. The only thing that gives it any relevence is processors, and let's be honest: why the fuck would I want to play a processor when I have to put bullshit like Storm Crow in my deck to make it work?
In limited there's so few options you have no choice, and in constructed there's Delve and other shit to exile stuff so you don't necessarily need Ingest to power the processors, but still: Ingest never should have been a mechanic, it's dumb.
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On September 27 2015 12:58 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common. He's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. He's a fucking Storm Crow, less awesome, but just as unplayable. Even if Ingest was a thing, effectively milling 1 when it hits them is not useful in limited or constructed. The only thing that gives it any relevence is processors, and let's be honest: why the fuck would I want to play a processor when I have to put bullshit like Storm Crow in my deck to make it work? In limited there's so few options you have no choice, and in constructed there's Delve and other shit to exile stuff so you don't necessarily need Ingest to power the processors, but still: Ingest never should have been a mechanic, it's dumb.
Going to have to disagree with you here.
Between the 3/2 lord, the 3/2 for 3, the 2/2 for 2, and the 1/4 unblockable, UB certainly has enough "reasonable" ingesters to make processors worth it. And some of the processors are pretty bonkers, especially in those colors - the 2/3 flash flying counterspell and the 3/2 that gives -3/-3 are both very strong. The 3/2 bounce, 2/5 regrowther, and 3/5 looter give you reasonable ways to spend your exiled cards when you can't find those.
In additon, those colors also have a good deal of support in their spells. Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, Transgress the Mind, Grave Birthing, and Complete Disregard are all unembarassing ways to enable the processors above.
Looking at ingest creatures milling is definitely not the way to go about it. You could even pretend that clause didn't exist, and all you're really doing is building up some abstract resource you can use in the future. You play ingest creatures that were already reasonably costed, and get some additional upside in that they enable your powerful processors. Playing bad ingesters like the 1/1 or the 1/2 flyer is of course bad, but there are plenty of not-bad ways. You're hardly forced into putting storm crow into your deck.
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On September 27 2015 01:24 Klowney wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 00:59 BlackCompany wrote:
Hey guys,
I just found out recently that there is an online version of Magic. I've played a little bit of Magic about 5 years ago (still own some of my cards but i havent touched them in ages haha) and wanted to ask if anyone could tell me a little bit more about the online version? Is it really just a one time 10$ account and then you are free to go? Or is it still pay to win with buying booster packs and all that stuff (do you also have to buy DLCs?). I'm looking for a fun game to waste a hour or so sometimes when i'm stuck in trains or busses. Can anyone recommend Magic online? Magic Online is pretty much like normal magic, the 10$ gives you basic cards, event tickets and some other stuff. You still have to buy packs/cards that you want. There is also Magic Duels on steam, it has more limits and less cards than Magic Online but it's f2p.
Ah okay, thanks. Then i'll think about it if I have to invest in additional boosters as well. Will probably be a little to much for just playing it on trains.
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On September 27 2015 18:46 BlackCompany wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 01:24 Klowney wrote:On September 27 2015 00:59 BlackCompany wrote:
Hey guys,
I just found out recently that there is an online version of Magic. I've played a little bit of Magic about 5 years ago (still own some of my cards but i havent touched them in ages haha) and wanted to ask if anyone could tell me a little bit more about the online version? Is it really just a one time 10$ account and then you are free to go? Or is it still pay to win with buying booster packs and all that stuff (do you also have to buy DLCs?). I'm looking for a fun game to waste a hour or so sometimes when i'm stuck in trains or busses. Can anyone recommend Magic online? Magic Online is pretty much like normal magic, the 10$ gives you basic cards, event tickets and some other stuff. You still have to buy packs/cards that you want. There is also Magic Duels on steam, it has more limits and less cards than Magic Online but it's f2p. Ah okay, thanks. Then i'll think about it if I have to invest in additional boosters as well. Will probably be a little to much for just playing it on trains.
better off playing hearthstone for that purpose actually.
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On September 27 2015 16:43 eluv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 12:58 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common. He's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. He's a fucking Storm Crow, less awesome, but just as unplayable. Even if Ingest was a thing, effectively milling 1 when it hits them is not useful in limited or constructed. The only thing that gives it any relevence is processors, and let's be honest: why the fuck would I want to play a processor when I have to put bullshit like Storm Crow in my deck to make it work? In limited there's so few options you have no choice, and in constructed there's Delve and other shit to exile stuff so you don't necessarily need Ingest to power the processors, but still: Ingest never should have been a mechanic, it's dumb. Going to have to disagree with you here. Between the 3/2 lord, the 3/2 for 3, the 2/2 for 2, and the 1/4 unblockable, UB certainly has enough "reasonable" ingesters to make processors worth it. And some of the processors are pretty bonkers, especially in those colors - the 2/3 flash flying counterspell and the 3/2 that gives -3/-3 are both very strong. The 3/2 bounce, 2/5 regrowther, and 3/5 looter give you reasonable ways to spend your exiled cards when you can't find those. In additon, those colors also have a good deal of support in their spells. Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, Transgress the Mind, Grave Birthing, and Complete Disregard are all unembarassing ways to enable the processors above. Looking at ingest creatures milling is definitely not the way to go about it. You could even pretend that clause didn't exist, and all you're really doing is building up some abstract resource you can use in the future. You play ingest creatures that were already reasonably costed, and get some additional upside in that they enable your powerful processors. Playing bad ingesters like the 1/1 or the 1/2 flyer is of course bad, but there are plenty of not-bad ways. You're hardly forced into putting storm crow into your deck.
I realize all of that, but you're missing the point. You shouldn't HAVE to play shitty cards to build a resource so you can play the decent (not even that great) cards in your deck. It's FORCED synergy which Magic has had very little of in the past and is a worrying sign for the future. I don't want a future Magic set where, in order to play with 2 cards I want, I have to build a constructed deck with a bunch of shitty enablers in order to get the only good card in my deck to work. If there's a world where that's the best thing you can be doing in Standard, I quit.
There are maybe 2 ingest creatures that are costed in such a way that they're not absolutely horrible limited cards by themselves. All the processors are just worse versions of other cards that have come before with an additional drawback. I get that they wanted to make a lower power set, but forcing synergy with abysmal cards in order to play what should have been cards at the floor of the power level is just wrong.
OK, here's a hypo: Imagine a card in Standard that has Protection from Everything, Indestructible, Cannot be Sacrificed, on your Upkeep, you win the game. The only way to play it is to sacrifice Red Arbiter, Blue Arbiter, Green Arbiter, Black Arbiter, and White Arbiter from play, and all of them are 1/1s for 3 with no other abilities. The best decks in that format are the deck that plays 20 Arbiters and the decks that are designed to beat 20 Arbiter decks. But the Arbiter deck has no choice in 20 (21 with the win card) of its card slots because it's required to play those specific cards in order to use the one card in its deck that's good. But it's SO good that you have to play it because it's the best thing you can do in Standard, even though you're priced into playing 20 1/1s for 3 in your deck. It's stupid, but that's kind of the way YGH went.
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On September 27 2015 22:38 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 16:43 eluv wrote:On September 27 2015 12:58 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common. He's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. He's a fucking Storm Crow, less awesome, but just as unplayable. Even if Ingest was a thing, effectively milling 1 when it hits them is not useful in limited or constructed. The only thing that gives it any relevence is processors, and let's be honest: why the fuck would I want to play a processor when I have to put bullshit like Storm Crow in my deck to make it work? In limited there's so few options you have no choice, and in constructed there's Delve and other shit to exile stuff so you don't necessarily need Ingest to power the processors, but still: Ingest never should have been a mechanic, it's dumb. Going to have to disagree with you here. Between the 3/2 lord, the 3/2 for 3, the 2/2 for 2, and the 1/4 unblockable, UB certainly has enough "reasonable" ingesters to make processors worth it. And some of the processors are pretty bonkers, especially in those colors - the 2/3 flash flying counterspell and the 3/2 that gives -3/-3 are both very strong. The 3/2 bounce, 2/5 regrowther, and 3/5 looter give you reasonable ways to spend your exiled cards when you can't find those. In additon, those colors also have a good deal of support in their spells. Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, Transgress the Mind, Grave Birthing, and Complete Disregard are all unembarassing ways to enable the processors above. Looking at ingest creatures milling is definitely not the way to go about it. You could even pretend that clause didn't exist, and all you're really doing is building up some abstract resource you can use in the future. You play ingest creatures that were already reasonably costed, and get some additional upside in that they enable your powerful processors. Playing bad ingesters like the 1/1 or the 1/2 flyer is of course bad, but there are plenty of not-bad ways. You're hardly forced into putting storm crow into your deck. I realize all of that, but you're missing the point. You shouldn't HAVE to play shitty cards to build a resource so you can play the decent (not even that great) cards in your deck. It's FORCED synergy which Magic has had very little of in the past and is a worrying sign for the future. I don't want a future Magic set where, in order to play with 2 cards I want, I have to build a constructed deck with a bunch of shitty enablers in order to get the only good card in my deck to work. If there's a world where that's the best thing you can be doing in Standard, I quit. There are maybe 2 ingest creatures that are costed in such a way that they're not absolutely horrible limited cards by themselves. All the processors are just worse versions of other cards that have come before with an additional drawback. I get that they wanted to make a lower power set, but forcing synergy with abysmal cards in order to play what should have been cards at the floor of the power level is just wrong. OK, here's a hypo: Imagine a card in Standard that has Protection from Everything, Indestructible, Cannot be Sacrificed, on your Upkeep, you win the game. The only way to play it is to sacrifice Red Arbiter, Blue Arbiter, Green Arbiter, Black Arbiter, and White Arbiter from play, and all of them are 1/1s for 3 with no other abilities. The best decks in that format are the deck that plays 20 Arbiters and the decks that are designed to beat 20 Arbiter decks. But the Arbiter deck has no choice in 20 (21 with the win card) of its card slots because it's required to play those specific cards in order to use the one card in its deck that's good. But it's SO good that you have to play it because it's the best thing you can do in Standard, even though you're priced into playing 20 1/1s for 3 in your deck. It's stupid, but that's kind of the way YGH went.
I don't know man, there have been tons of mechanics in Magic's history that have forced you to build around them in order for them to be successful. Not all of them have been successful, but some have worked. Ones that failed would be examples of allies in the original Zendikar (allies in BFZ are great, though). However, metalcraft, poison, heroic, etc. are all mechanics that involve sub-par cards that become powerful once you reach a critical mass of synergy, and they seemed to work pretty well! I'm not super familiar with the Innistraad/Ravnica/Theros blocks, but I'm sure there were similar mechanics throughout.
I think that "build around" mechanical synergy that involves sub-par cards that become powerful in a critical mass has been a pretty common feature of Magic for a while.
I also suspect that ingest/process is not constructed playable, but that it was not intended to be so. It was probably intended to be primarily a sealed/draft mechanic.
I'm pretty noob though so what do I know.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
I agree with sentiments that some of the design in BFZ is a bit wonky and does feel as clean as other things MtG has done in the past. The Ingest/Processor thing is a bit of an execution error, since I can understand how from a thematic point of view how the idea was to represent the lore. Eldrazis literally dissolve your existance which is represented by exiling cards, and they use this material to make new things which are the processors. Could have been done better though.
I think PVDDR's article about BFZ flaws hit the nail on the head though that the Allies in BFZ just don't make any sense at all. Allies in original Zendikar were very clean in the sense you knew that all Allies did stuff with other Allies. BFZ Allies are just random and seem more like a "Hey original Zendikar had Allies so here are some things which are Allies yo!" Urgh.
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On September 28 2015 00:02 MoonBear wrote:I agree with sentiments that some of the design in BFZ is a bit wonky and does feel as clean as other things MtG has done in the past. The Ingest/Processor thing is a bit of an execution error, since I can understand how from a thematic point of view how the idea was to represent the lore. Eldrazis literally dissolve your existance which is represented by exiling cards, and they use this material to make new things which are the processors. Could have been done better though. I think PVDDR's article about BFZ flaws hit the nail on the head though that the Allies in BFZ just don't make any sense at all. Allies in original Zendikar were very clean in the sense you knew that all Allies did stuff with other Allies. BFZ Allies are just random and seem more like a "Hey original Zendikar had Allies so here are some things which are Allies yo!" Urgh.
I also agree with the article; a bunch of the design just seems forced. Doesn't make the fact that that you don't need ingest to play processors any less true. Overall the limited format seems like a lot of fun so far (aside from there not being too many archetypes to try to get into). Can't really speak for how BFZ will or won't affect constructed.
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On September 27 2015 23:25 BallinWitStalin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 22:38 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 16:43 eluv wrote:On September 27 2015 12:58 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common. He's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. He's a fucking Storm Crow, less awesome, but just as unplayable. Even if Ingest was a thing, effectively milling 1 when it hits them is not useful in limited or constructed. The only thing that gives it any relevence is processors, and let's be honest: why the fuck would I want to play a processor when I have to put bullshit like Storm Crow in my deck to make it work? In limited there's so few options you have no choice, and in constructed there's Delve and other shit to exile stuff so you don't necessarily need Ingest to power the processors, but still: Ingest never should have been a mechanic, it's dumb. Going to have to disagree with you here. Between the 3/2 lord, the 3/2 for 3, the 2/2 for 2, and the 1/4 unblockable, UB certainly has enough "reasonable" ingesters to make processors worth it. And some of the processors are pretty bonkers, especially in those colors - the 2/3 flash flying counterspell and the 3/2 that gives -3/-3 are both very strong. The 3/2 bounce, 2/5 regrowther, and 3/5 looter give you reasonable ways to spend your exiled cards when you can't find those. In additon, those colors also have a good deal of support in their spells. Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, Transgress the Mind, Grave Birthing, and Complete Disregard are all unembarassing ways to enable the processors above. Looking at ingest creatures milling is definitely not the way to go about it. You could even pretend that clause didn't exist, and all you're really doing is building up some abstract resource you can use in the future. You play ingest creatures that were already reasonably costed, and get some additional upside in that they enable your powerful processors. Playing bad ingesters like the 1/1 or the 1/2 flyer is of course bad, but there are plenty of not-bad ways. You're hardly forced into putting storm crow into your deck. I realize all of that, but you're missing the point. You shouldn't HAVE to play shitty cards to build a resource so you can play the decent (not even that great) cards in your deck. It's FORCED synergy which Magic has had very little of in the past and is a worrying sign for the future. I don't want a future Magic set where, in order to play with 2 cards I want, I have to build a constructed deck with a bunch of shitty enablers in order to get the only good card in my deck to work. If there's a world where that's the best thing you can be doing in Standard, I quit. There are maybe 2 ingest creatures that are costed in such a way that they're not absolutely horrible limited cards by themselves. All the processors are just worse versions of other cards that have come before with an additional drawback. I get that they wanted to make a lower power set, but forcing synergy with abysmal cards in order to play what should have been cards at the floor of the power level is just wrong. OK, here's a hypo: Imagine a card in Standard that has Protection from Everything, Indestructible, Cannot be Sacrificed, on your Upkeep, you win the game. The only way to play it is to sacrifice Red Arbiter, Blue Arbiter, Green Arbiter, Black Arbiter, and White Arbiter from play, and all of them are 1/1s for 3 with no other abilities. The best decks in that format are the deck that plays 20 Arbiters and the decks that are designed to beat 20 Arbiter decks. But the Arbiter deck has no choice in 20 (21 with the win card) of its card slots because it's required to play those specific cards in order to use the one card in its deck that's good. But it's SO good that you have to play it because it's the best thing you can do in Standard, even though you're priced into playing 20 1/1s for 3 in your deck. It's stupid, but that's kind of the way YGH went. I don't know man, there have been tons of mechanics in Magic's history that have forced you to build around them in order for them to be successful. Not all of them have been successful, but some have worked. Ones that failed would be examples of allies in the original Zendikar (allies in BFZ are great, though). However, metalcraft, poison, heroic, etc. are all mechanics that involve sub-par cards that become powerful once you reach a critical mass of synergy, and they seemed to work pretty well! I'm not super familiar with the Innistrad/Ravnica/Theros blocks, but I'm sure there were similar mechanics throughout. I think that "build around" mechanical synergy that involves sub-par cards that become powerful in a critical mass has been a pretty common feature of Magic for a while. I also suspect that ingest/process is not constructed playable, but that it was not intended to be so. It was probably intended to be primarily a sealed/draft mechanic. I'm pretty noob though so what do I know.
There's a difference for rewarding you for playing certain types of cards and forcing you to play certain cards. The closest is heroic, but the payoff is that you basically win the game. The payoff here is that you get marginal value. And even the cards you played in heroic weren't all that bad. At worst (Defiant Strike) they cycled and gave a permanent pump, and at best (Ordeal of Thassa) they made your creature huge and drew you a couple cards. An 0/4 for 1 is fine against aggro decks and a 1/2 that can't die in combat isn't the worst either and that's the worst case scenario.
Here, you're playing 1/1s for 1, 1/2 fliers for 2, etc. not to win the game, but to enable some theoretical maybe value from a creature you might draw in the future to make it not a useless creature. You don't win the game if you cast processors with stuff exiled, you don't even necessarily get hugely ahead either. It just enables mediocre creatures to become on-par or maybe slightly above par value creatures. The bigger issue is that you're going to HAVE to pick up some processors or ingest creatures in the draft because there's simply not enough other shit to go around. Allies is going to be overdrafted, and if you end up with a bunch of ingest and no processors, you're fucked, if you end up with a bunch of processors and no ingest, you're fucked, if you end up with a bunch of mediocre allies, you're still fine.
ONE MORE THING: Ingest is not a constructed mechanic. It wasn't even intended to ever see constructed play, it wasn't designed for constructed play. There's plenty of ways to exile shit in constructed (even your opponent delving), so you don't need them there, they are solely to turn processors on in limited. Unlike other limited mechanics (Extort, Detain, Outlast, etc.) it does nothing on its own, it's wholly subservient to the processor mechanic.
Why the fuck does it exist?
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On September 28 2015 00:06 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 23:25 BallinWitStalin wrote:On September 27 2015 22:38 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 16:43 eluv wrote:On September 27 2015 12:58 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common. He's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. He's a fucking Storm Crow, less awesome, but just as unplayable. Even if Ingest was a thing, effectively milling 1 when it hits them is not useful in limited or constructed. The only thing that gives it any relevence is processors, and let's be honest: why the fuck would I want to play a processor when I have to put bullshit like Storm Crow in my deck to make it work? In limited there's so few options you have no choice, and in constructed there's Delve and other shit to exile stuff so you don't necessarily need Ingest to power the processors, but still: Ingest never should have been a mechanic, it's dumb. Going to have to disagree with you here. Between the 3/2 lord, the 3/2 for 3, the 2/2 for 2, and the 1/4 unblockable, UB certainly has enough "reasonable" ingesters to make processors worth it. And some of the processors are pretty bonkers, especially in those colors - the 2/3 flash flying counterspell and the 3/2 that gives -3/-3 are both very strong. The 3/2 bounce, 2/5 regrowther, and 3/5 looter give you reasonable ways to spend your exiled cards when you can't find those. In additon, those colors also have a good deal of support in their spells. Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, Transgress the Mind, Grave Birthing, and Complete Disregard are all unembarassing ways to enable the processors above. Looking at ingest creatures milling is definitely not the way to go about it. You could even pretend that clause didn't exist, and all you're really doing is building up some abstract resource you can use in the future. You play ingest creatures that were already reasonably costed, and get some additional upside in that they enable your powerful processors. Playing bad ingesters like the 1/1 or the 1/2 flyer is of course bad, but there are plenty of not-bad ways. You're hardly forced into putting storm crow into your deck. I realize all of that, but you're missing the point. You shouldn't HAVE to play shitty cards to build a resource so you can play the decent (not even that great) cards in your deck. It's FORCED synergy which Magic has had very little of in the past and is a worrying sign for the future. I don't want a future Magic set where, in order to play with 2 cards I want, I have to build a constructed deck with a bunch of shitty enablers in order to get the only good card in my deck to work. If there's a world where that's the best thing you can be doing in Standard, I quit. There are maybe 2 ingest creatures that are costed in such a way that they're not absolutely horrible limited cards by themselves. All the processors are just worse versions of other cards that have come before with an additional drawback. I get that they wanted to make a lower power set, but forcing synergy with abysmal cards in order to play what should have been cards at the floor of the power level is just wrong. OK, here's a hypo: Imagine a card in Standard that has Protection from Everything, Indestructible, Cannot be Sacrificed, on your Upkeep, you win the game. The only way to play it is to sacrifice Red Arbiter, Blue Arbiter, Green Arbiter, Black Arbiter, and White Arbiter from play, and all of them are 1/1s for 3 with no other abilities. The best decks in that format are the deck that plays 20 Arbiters and the decks that are designed to beat 20 Arbiter decks. But the Arbiter deck has no choice in 20 (21 with the win card) of its card slots because it's required to play those specific cards in order to use the one card in its deck that's good. But it's SO good that you have to play it because it's the best thing you can do in Standard, even though you're priced into playing 20 1/1s for 3 in your deck. It's stupid, but that's kind of the way YGH went. I don't know man, there have been tons of mechanics in Magic's history that have forced you to build around them in order for them to be successful. Not all of them have been successful, but some have worked. Ones that failed would be examples of allies in the original Zendikar (allies in BFZ are great, though). However, metalcraft, poison, heroic, etc. are all mechanics that involve sub-par cards that become powerful once you reach a critical mass of synergy, and they seemed to work pretty well! I'm not super familiar with the Innistrad/Ravnica/Theros blocks, but I'm sure there were similar mechanics throughout. I think that "build around" mechanical synergy that involves sub-par cards that become powerful in a critical mass has been a pretty common feature of Magic for a while. I also suspect that ingest/process is not constructed playable, but that it was not intended to be so. It was probably intended to be primarily a sealed/draft mechanic. I'm pretty noob though so what do I know. There's a difference for rewarding you for playing certain types of cards and forcing you to play certain cards. The closest is heroic, but the payoff is that you basically win the game. The payoff here is that you get marginal value. And even the cards you played in heroic weren't all that bad. At worst (Defiant Strike) they cycled and gave a permanent pump, and at best (Ordeal of Thassa) they made your creature huge and drew you a couple cards. An 0/4 for 1 is fine against aggro decks and a 1/2 that can't die in combat isn't the worst either and that's the worst case scenario. Here, you're playing 1/1s for 1, 1/2 fliers for 2, etc. not to win the game, but to enable some theoretical maybe value from a creature you might draw in the future to make it not a useless creature. You don't win the game if you cast processors with stuff exiled, you don't even necessarily get hugely ahead either. It just enables mediocre creatures to become on-par or maybe slightly above par value creatures. The bigger issue is that you're going to HAVE to pick up some processors or ingest creatures in the draft because there's simply not enough other shit to go around. Allies is going to be overdrafted, and if you end up with a bunch of ingest and no processors, you're fucked, if you end up with a bunch of processors and no ingest, you're fucked, if you end up with a bunch of mediocre allies, you're still fine. ONE MORE THING: Ingest is not a constructed mechanic. It wasn't even intended to ever see constructed play, it wasn't designed for constructed play. There's plenty of ways to exile shit in constructed (even your opponent delving), so you don't need them there, they are solely to turn processors on in limited. Unlike other limited mechanics (Extort, Detain, Outlast, etc.) it does nothing on its own, it's wholly subservient to the processor mechanic. Why the fuck does it exist?
I don't know, I think you're evaluating these cards in the context of a more powerful limited environment. Sure, some of the ingest guys totally blow (that 1 mana 1/1 sucks), but culling drone is fine, the 1/4 unblockable for three mana is fine, the lord is fine, dominator drone is fine, sludge crawler is.....borderline playable, and vile aggregate is fine.
It's like you said, ingest is pretty much there to enable processing in limited environments. That is the purpose it exists, it is wholly subservient to the processor mechanic to make it relevant to limited, you said it yourself. Maybe it could use a slight boost in power level, but the power level of the set overall is pretty damn low.
I haven't drafted it yet, so I guess I'll see how it plays out, but I don't know, it doesn't seem too bad to me, in the context of the other low power creatures in the set.
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On September 28 2015 00:06 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2015 23:25 BallinWitStalin wrote:On September 27 2015 22:38 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 16:43 eluv wrote:On September 27 2015 12:58 deth2munkies wrote:On September 27 2015 12:28 LennX wrote:Mist IntruderImo he's 1 of the best ingest cards(i'm a lucky bastard having 2 of them in my sealed). I got no idea why he is a common. He's exactly the bullshit I'm talking about. He's a fucking Storm Crow, less awesome, but just as unplayable. Even if Ingest was a thing, effectively milling 1 when it hits them is not useful in limited or constructed. The only thing that gives it any relevence is processors, and let's be honest: why the fuck would I want to play a processor when I have to put bullshit like Storm Crow in my deck to make it work? In limited there's so few options you have no choice, and in constructed there's Delve and other shit to exile stuff so you don't necessarily need Ingest to power the processors, but still: Ingest never should have been a mechanic, it's dumb. Going to have to disagree with you here. Between the 3/2 lord, the 3/2 for 3, the 2/2 for 2, and the 1/4 unblockable, UB certainly has enough "reasonable" ingesters to make processors worth it. And some of the processors are pretty bonkers, especially in those colors - the 2/3 flash flying counterspell and the 3/2 that gives -3/-3 are both very strong. The 3/2 bounce, 2/5 regrowther, and 3/5 looter give you reasonable ways to spend your exiled cards when you can't find those. In additon, those colors also have a good deal of support in their spells. Horribly Awry, Spell Shrivel, Transgress the Mind, Grave Birthing, and Complete Disregard are all unembarassing ways to enable the processors above. Looking at ingest creatures milling is definitely not the way to go about it. You could even pretend that clause didn't exist, and all you're really doing is building up some abstract resource you can use in the future. You play ingest creatures that were already reasonably costed, and get some additional upside in that they enable your powerful processors. Playing bad ingesters like the 1/1 or the 1/2 flyer is of course bad, but there are plenty of not-bad ways. You're hardly forced into putting storm crow into your deck. I realize all of that, but you're missing the point. You shouldn't HAVE to play shitty cards to build a resource so you can play the decent (not even that great) cards in your deck. It's FORCED synergy which Magic has had very little of in the past and is a worrying sign for the future. I don't want a future Magic set where, in order to play with 2 cards I want, I have to build a constructed deck with a bunch of shitty enablers in order to get the only good card in my deck to work. If there's a world where that's the best thing you can be doing in Standard, I quit. There are maybe 2 ingest creatures that are costed in such a way that they're not absolutely horrible limited cards by themselves. All the processors are just worse versions of other cards that have come before with an additional drawback. I get that they wanted to make a lower power set, but forcing synergy with abysmal cards in order to play what should have been cards at the floor of the power level is just wrong. OK, here's a hypo: Imagine a card in Standard that has Protection from Everything, Indestructible, Cannot be Sacrificed, on your Upkeep, you win the game. The only way to play it is to sacrifice Red Arbiter, Blue Arbiter, Green Arbiter, Black Arbiter, and White Arbiter from play, and all of them are 1/1s for 3 with no other abilities. The best decks in that format are the deck that plays 20 Arbiters and the decks that are designed to beat 20 Arbiter decks. But the Arbiter deck has no choice in 20 (21 with the win card) of its card slots because it's required to play those specific cards in order to use the one card in its deck that's good. But it's SO good that you have to play it because it's the best thing you can do in Standard, even though you're priced into playing 20 1/1s for 3 in your deck. It's stupid, but that's kind of the way YGH went. I don't know man, there have been tons of mechanics in Magic's history that have forced you to build around them in order for them to be successful. Not all of them have been successful, but some have worked. Ones that failed would be examples of allies in the original Zendikar (allies in BFZ are great, though). However, metalcraft, poison, heroic, etc. are all mechanics that involve sub-par cards that become powerful once you reach a critical mass of synergy, and they seemed to work pretty well! I'm not super familiar with the Innistrad/Ravnica/Theros blocks, but I'm sure there were similar mechanics throughout. I think that "build around" mechanical synergy that involves sub-par cards that become powerful in a critical mass has been a pretty common feature of Magic for a while. I also suspect that ingest/process is not constructed playable, but that it was not intended to be so. It was probably intended to be primarily a sealed/draft mechanic. I'm pretty noob though so what do I know. There's a difference for rewarding you for playing certain types of cards and forcing you to play certain cards. The closest is heroic, but the payoff is that you basically win the game. The payoff here is that you get marginal value. And even the cards you played in heroic weren't all that bad. At worst (Defiant Strike) they cycled and gave a permanent pump, and at best (Ordeal of Thassa) they made your creature huge and drew you a couple cards. An 0/4 for 1 is fine against aggro decks and a 1/2 that can't die in combat isn't the worst either and that's the worst case scenario. Here, you're playing 1/1s for 1, 1/2 fliers for 2, etc. not to win the game, but to enable some theoretical maybe value from a creature you might draw in the future to make it not a useless creature. You don't win the game if you cast processors with stuff exiled, you don't even necessarily get hugely ahead either. It just enables mediocre creatures to become on-par or maybe slightly above par value creatures. The bigger issue is that you're going to HAVE to pick up some processors or ingest creatures in the draft because there's simply not enough other shit to go around. Allies is going to be overdrafted, and if you end up with a bunch of ingest and no processors, you're fucked, if you end up with a bunch of processors and no ingest, you're fucked, if you end up with a bunch of mediocre allies, you're still fine. ONE MORE THING: Ingest is not a constructed mechanic. It wasn't even intended to ever see constructed play, it wasn't designed for constructed play. There's plenty of ways to exile shit in constructed (even your opponent delving), so you don't need them there, they are solely to turn processors on in limited. Unlike other limited mechanics (Extort, Detain, Outlast, etc.) it does nothing on its own, it's wholly subservient to the processor mechanic. Why the fuck does it exist?
Why do you keep harping on the 1/1 and the 1/2? No one is saying you should play with those, or should have to play with those. As I pointed out above - there's a 3/2 colorless lord for 4, a 3/2 for 3 that shoots the opponent for 2, a 2/2 for 2, and a 1/4 unblockable for 3.
All of those are perfectly reasonable creatures without the ingest text. They probably range from C- to C+ without any synergies. I'm just not seeing this world where I'm "forced" into putting a bunch of D's together to make A's - it's more like if I'm able to get the right mix, my deck full of just ok cards turns into a deck full of actively good ones. That makes for an interesting limited experience, because when the synergy cards are powerful in their own right, with no synergies, you never get to draft a deck around them - they get picked up to go in everyone's deck (see thopters in origins).
Finally, the bar on mechanics in constructed is very high. Most limited mechanics see only fringe play, and only on the cards that were already powerful to begin with. I expect the 1/1 deathtouch with ingest will see some play, just like a small number of heroic enablers, a small number of devotion cards, a small number of constellation cards, a small number of Dash cards etc. all saw play.
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Ingest is fine. I won my pre-release with a UBg ingest deck. I went 2 - 0 in every game but one, it was a slaughter.
Yes the cards themselves are a bit overcosted, but the engine they bring online, plus the sacs to draw/mana to slow down the game are amazing.
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Welp. After making top 16 (16th) in the first event and winning 6 BFZ packs I went 2-3-1 in the second event and just got home from going 0-2 and dropping from the 2HeadedGiant event -_-. Was pretty fun overall but since the first 2 events both had 100+ people and ran 8+ hours each I'm fine with dropping the third event early and being able to chill out for the rest of the day lol.
2HG was weird, I think our teams power level was really damn high but I got land screwed both games while running 18 lands with fixing and some ramp and even playing turn 2 and 3 beastcaller savant's -___________- in the second game. Was my teams first time playing 2HG so neither of us really knew what to expect but from what I seen it seems that the board stalls really early and that anything that allows you to get through with damage or control the board is amazing (tap down creature, bounce, deathtouch, etc.). Maybe instead of me going ramp into big creatures and my partner going allies and heavy removal I should have went midrange as well.
Anyways,
(1) Does anyone know how limited 2HG events usually play out (like what is the best strategy etc)
(2) Are there any good guides out there on the economics of MTG. I just got into the game and this being my first pre-release I got a bunch of rares and mythics and I'm wondering what the best approach is economically.
I've just been playing ORI drafts for a few weeks so I only have the cards Ive pulled form drafting and these pre-releases So I don't know if I should keep all these cards to maybe scrap things together eventually for some other formats (standard and modern I guess, whatever the competitive formats are) or if selling them off is better.
Highest value so far from ORI (playing just one more ORI draft on Monday night I think, then its BFZ draft from then on) is Hangarback walker, Chandra, Abbot, Day's Undoing, Languish, and Sword of the animist. Of those I know Walker, Abbot, and Languish are used in some decks.
From BFZ PR events I pulled 2 of the dual lands (sunken hollow foil stamped and a smoldering marsh) and then Greenwarden of Murasa, Void Winnower, Drana, Oblivion Sower, Endless One, Brutual Expulsion, From Beyond (3x) Lumbering falls, Desolation Twin, Beastcaller Savant, and a bunch of other low value things.
Like I said I only have a few cards worth any decent amount so I want some input from people who have been playing awhile and know how the economy goes to explain how to handle the flood of cards from playing mass limited games.
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I only played one pre-release (had to lay the smackdown in bowling with some friends, which I won all 3 games)
Format: 32 players - 5 rounds swiss, cut to standings for prizes]
The deck:
I opened my pool, I had a lot of ramp in green. 1x Beastcaller Savant, 2x Lifespring Druid, 2x Natural Connection. These were all ramp cards, 3 mana dorks that added ANY color which is extremely relevant and the 2 natural connections can get any basic land at instant speed which also helped tremendously.
Rounding out my green was Tajuru Warcaller (only got to play this card once, super beats), From Beyond (won every game I dropped this except one), Woodland Wanderer (adding any color made this guy a 6/6 for 4 almost every game). Green was clearly my base with other commons and uncommons like 2 Oran-Rief Invokers, 1x Murasa Ranger, 1x Plummet for Sideboard.
Colorless: Eldrazi Devastater, Break of Armies, Scour from Existence, Pilgrim's Eye
Lands: Canopy Vista + basics
White was my secondary color, with Gideon's Reproach, Return to Emeria (Recurring Overrun with Tajuru Warcaller, instant speed team pump with Natural connection), Smite the Monstrous, and Sheer drop.
I chose red as my 3rd color for Akoum Hellkite, 2x Stonefury, and a Rolling thunder. This ended up a mistake, thankfully prereleases are freeform and you can change your deck.
Overall Build: 17 lands, 23 Spells. 6 of the spells were ramp/land fetchers.
Record: 0-0
Match 1: Naya ramp vs. U/W fliers/Awaken
Game 1: I am on the play with a heavy ramp hand and Eldrazi Devastator. I ramp heavily while he starts pinging me with small unblockable ingest guys. He also equips the hedron Equipment to give +1/+1. On turn 5 I cast Eldrazi Devastator as I ramped perfectly. He unsummons it and awakens a land with Clutch of Currents on his turn. I recast it, and he then puts it on top of my library with awaken with Roil Spout. It looks pretty bad but I am able to kill his lands while still being beat down by his unblockable guys. I am able to stabilize with 2 life left by landing a from Beyond to chump and then landing by big Eldrazi and it finally sticking. After removing his unblockable attackers he topdecks a flier which I exile with Scour from Existance and laying the beats with my devastator slowly chipping away at his life total. He top decks Angelic Gift and I die.
Game 2: I keep a 6 lander on and draw 5 lands and a pilgrim's eye which nets me another land. Probably should of mulligan'd but I had a 3 drop mana dork and most of my deck starts on turn 4 anyways, I literally lose before I do anything and drop to 0-1.
The audible: I decide red was too slow, although the deck was very powerful in the late game. I needed to speed it up. I drop all the red, add Lumbering falls and blue to my deck. Which also nets me access to Skyrider elf, 1x Horribly Awry, and 2x Tightening Coils.
Record: 0-1
Match 2: Bant (U/W/G) Ramp vs. R/G aggro
Game 1: He got off to a quick start, but a timely horribly Awry and a Tightening Coil and a creature he buffed up easily won this game in my favor. He ran out of steam very quickly and I started hitting my bigger creatures.
Game 2: He gets off to another quick start on the ground. I land into 2 mana elf into 3 mana elf on turn 3. I drop a From beyond and White landfall enchantment and gum up the board. I was able to grow a Murasa Ranger large and force him to trade several creatures and a combat trick just to trade 3 cards for one. I then used an Oran-Rief Invoker to slam through the rest of the damage as I kept growing my token wall on the defense for any possible crackback. I win 2 easy games.
Record: 1-1
Match 3: Bant Ramp vs. W/U Ingest/Awaken
Game 1: On the draw, he starts off with several small ingest creatures. I quickly ramp into too large of threats. Turn 3 6/6 Vigilance Trampling Woodland Wanderer into turn 4 4/4 Skyrider elf with flying. He couldn't answer, I quickly swung through for victory.
Game 2: Mulligan to 6. On the draw, I fail to draw any land past my ramp spells. I land an early from Beyond and Return to Emeria to generate lots of blockers. I land a 6/6 Woodland Wanderer, which he Tightening Coils immediately. He has a couple of 3/2 Fliers which take me down low until I land the 2/4 reach creature in this set. I am able to take out one of the fliers and things start looking up and he lands Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper. Over the next few turns with no real threats of my own he starts generating a large army of 3/3 lands which quickly overtake my from beyond tokens. I am sitting at 7 mana with a mana dork, however if I tap him to play my Eldrazi Devastator on the next turn I will not have enough blockers to block (2 short) everything. I top deck a land to get a kor ally token, and leave my elf untapped to play the eldrazi, I have exactsies on tokens to block and will start killing his lands, he attacks forcing me to top deck another land or creature to not die, I hit another land. The board stabilizes with me at 2 life. We go a couple more turns, I sac my From beyond to get Breaker of Worlds (forces all creatures to block only him) and play him in the same turn. He top decks Angelic Gift which gives him the flier to fly over me (he now has 2, and I have only one guy with reach), and I lose the game.
Game 3: Much like game one. Turn 3 6/6 Vigilance Trampler again, his deck also stumbles and I win the game on turn 6.
Record: 2-1
Match 1: Bant Ramp vs. G/B Eldrazi Ramp
Game 1: This deck was piloted by a friend of mine who is pretty good, and he had a great deck positioned against me, as he had little early game and mostly all late game. I had to put the pressure on early to have a chance. I quickly get out a 5/5 Skyrider elf on turn 4. He is able to stabilize with removal and putting pressure of his own on with Bane of Bala Ged (Annihilator, but not). I scour it from existance before it can attack once, he still presses hit board advantage by landing a Devastator, I play one of my own and pass. I am able to Smite the monstrous and start forcing awkward blocks to make the race impossible for him. I take the game.
Game 2: I Mulligan to 6. On the draw, he gets out to a quick start with all the small drop creatures he has. Landing dual Catacomb Sifters and ramping/scrying heavily into his favor. He lands 2 early eldrazi and I crumble.
Game 3: I Mulligan to 6. I side out my warcaller and add another Horribly Awry into my deck from my board. I play on the draw. I am able to counter an early Sifter and prevent him from getting much of a presence while I ramped slightly faster than him I also was able to drop a From Beyond Early. I am able to force him down to 9 life quite early by cracking and getting a Devastator and playing him in the same turn. After a couple of turns he stabilizes with a Devastator of his own and a Malakir Familiar (which I quickly coiled). He then plays a Bane of Bala Ged the very next turn. I smite the monstrous the Bane as he has enough blockers to attack with it and block me even if I killed the devastator. I land a 4/4 Skyrider elf which flies over and takes him to 5. He is able to kill it with a fight card after his next draw. He starts going a little wide, with not much power but lands a Sifter and Dominator Drone. I topdeck Scour from Existance and force him to make blocks that are not profitable to stay alive. I feel like I dodged a bullet in this match. I am now 3-1.
Record: 3-1
Match 4: Bant ramp vs. Bant Ramp (another friend of mine)
Game 1: My turn 3 5/5 Woodland Wanderer vs. his turn 4 5/5 Woodland Wanderer, yep this was that game (I was on the draw). I land a turn 4 Return to emeria to make Kor tokens. Turn 5 I play Tajuru Warcaller and a land to give my team +4/+4 and start swinging in profitably. This game ends very quickly.
Game 2: I mulligan to 6. I got destroyed by early counterspells Horribly Awry and Spell Shrivel, he hit a couple of 3/2 blue fliers that dropped me low and was able to land eldrazi earlier than me as well. This game wasn't very competitive either.
Game 3: I kept a pretty good hand, Beastcaller, 3 drop mana dork, From Beyond. I also put him on the play instead of being on the draw as I felt this game would come down to amount of cards with the similarities between our decks. He mulligans down to 4 showing me his hands. 7 land hand, to a 6 card hand with no land, 5 card hand with 1 land in wrong color. He keeps a 4 mana hand with 2 lands in the wrong colors. I proceed to play cards on turn 2-4, and once he sees from Beyond he just concedes.
Overall Record: 4-1
4th Place out of 32
Overall from my experience I was happy, had I not lost in first round maybe I would of gotten 2nd or 3rd with 1 loss (I was the worst 4-1 record in tiebreakers). But I still came away with a healthy amount of packs and couldn't complain, I had been competitive in every single game except one, in which I should have mulliganed. The new mulligan rule is amazing for limited and very helpful in preventing quite as many bad losses. It didn't effect me as much as it did others, but it was nice to have the information and makes me want to mulligan much more now as it doesn't feel as bad as it used to. I am not sure how I feel about the set, It is very slow and clunky in limited and the reason I was able to get to 4-1 was the sheer amount of ramp and consistency my deck had. It was not terribly powerful, but it was very consistent and played very similar most of the day.
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Ok so the 1/2 flyer is bad. Time to learn from my mistakes. Thanks for helping out
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On September 28 2015 00:04 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2015 00:02 MoonBear wrote:I agree with sentiments that some of the design in BFZ is a bit wonky and does feel as clean as other things MtG has done in the past. The Ingest/Processor thing is a bit of an execution error, since I can understand how from a thematic point of view how the idea was to represent the lore. Eldrazis literally dissolve your existance which is represented by exiling cards, and they use this material to make new things which are the processors. Could have been done better though. I think PVDDR's article about BFZ flaws hit the nail on the head though that the Allies in BFZ just don't make any sense at all. Allies in original Zendikar were very clean in the sense you knew that all Allies did stuff with other Allies. BFZ Allies are just random and seem more like a "Hey original Zendikar had Allies so here are some things which are Allies yo!" Urgh. I also agree with the article; a bunch of the design just seems forced. Doesn't make the fact that that you don't need ingest to play processors any less true. Overall the limited format seems like a lot of fun so far (aside from there not being too many archetypes to try to get into). Can't really speak for how BFZ will or won't affect constructed.
A bunch of the design is forced. This set is less polished than many simply because they were short on time. The decision to switch from 3-set blocks to 2 set-blocks happened half-way through BFZ design--so they had to change a lot of things. Then there was the problem that development only wants so many mechanics in standard at once. So they had to try to simplify BFZ to accommodate for that. But it turned out that that was an awful idea, and that shortening standard to 18 months would be the solution instead. And at that point design ran out of time and had to get development to patch things up. The ingest mechanic and converge are entirely the product of development not design for example.
That said, I do disagree with some of what PVDDR says about BFZ, for example his comments about devoid. Due to the fact that it's keyworded (and really had to be; people didn't understand colourless indicators) he's treating it like it's a mechanic, while it's more an extension to the colourless theme. Colourlessness is something that matters mechanically in BFZ limited, and devoid is a way to increase the density of colourless cards, while not having to create colour-pie undercutting cards to obtain sufficiently varied colourless cards at low CMC. On top of that devoid is needed to tie the set together flavourfully.
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Went 0 - 5 at BFZ pre-release this weekend :'(
I'm a decent Modern / Legacy player but I can't seriously build a deck from scratch to save my life.
Drafted some weird Blue-Black-Green deck with flyers and removals 'cause it seemed ok at that time but that turned out horrible...
GP at the end of October in my city, sealed deck, not a huge fan of the format but there's a GP where I live every 4 or 5 years so, can't quite miss it  Time to study more I guess!
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EPT
