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On August 04 2011 02:33 Diks wrote:
Yeah, is it me or the game isn't ready for beta at all.
This desn't look like blizzard to rush things like that.
But we're having some infos about gameplay that change from one day to another. I know that Beta isn't the final product but the core mechanics should have been setted before Beta.
When SC2 beta came out, they just had to refine some numbers (dmg, armor, life ,speed, range..)
D3 beta will come out but the rune system isn't half way done, they are lacking a large number of skills on some chars, constant changes in gameplay...
they should call it alpha version because I think they still have a ton of work to do on the product and a 9 month beta is not realistic. I might be totally wrong but when I see all the contradicting infos they released in a month, I cant help to think that the game still needs developpement.
Am I the only one thinking that ?
That's because the main reason for SC2 beta was to test balance. What else did they need a beta for, other than to detect crashes etc.? The game was pretty much good to go, but the absolute hardest part of designing a game like that, is the balance, which took like 4 months of Beta.
Diablo 3 on the other hand, much like WoW Betas, they can just do whatever the fuck to make the game fun and interesting because balance isn't as remotely as critical. The number of major talent and ability changes and complete reversions they've done in WoW Betas would make you think they're just flipping random switches, yet they still come out with a complete product by the end of it every time. I don't see any cause for concern.
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On August 04 2011 02:33 Diks wrote:
Yeah, is it me or the game isn't ready for beta at all.
This desn't look like blizzard to rush things like that.
But we're having some infos about gameplay that change from one day to another. I know that Beta isn't the final product but the core mechanics should have been setted before Beta.
When SC2 beta came out, they just had to refine some numbers (dmg, armor, life ,speed, range..)
D3 beta will come out but the rune system isn't half way done, they are lacking a large number of skills on some chars, constant changes in gameplay...
they should call it alpha version because I think they still have a ton of work to do on the product and a 9 month beta is not realistic. I might be totally wrong but when I see all the contradicting infos they released in a month, I cant help to think that the game still needs developpement.
Am I the only one thinking that ?
Major major difference between a competitive RTS beta and a game like D3.
Edit: what the guy above said.
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I still haven't found any info on how they plan to do ladder resets? Once the economy crashes, and it certainly will at some point, they will need to do a reset, but can they legally erase the items somebody payed real cash for?
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I never played D2 beta or WoW beta so my point may be totally worthless. sry in advance :p
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Just to finish out your post Diks.. Roaches were 1 supply. The balance of beta SC2 was so supremely fucked up that I'd say it was an unfinished game until they tweaked it!
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On August 04 2011 02:43 Odoakar wrote:
I still haven't found any info on how they plan to do ladder resets? Once the economy crashes, and it certainly will at some point, they will need to do a reset, but can they legally erase the items somebody payed real cash for?
I think they mentioned they are going away from the ladder reset system, especially with the "real money" AH items. One interview (Jay Wilson I believe) stated that they felt it was lame and they are looking at other ways to make things fresh and exciting without ladder resets. You can always delete your characters and remake if you'd like but this is one of the reasons for the limited (10) characters per account as well. It seems that, for now, they plan to keep the characters on permanently similar to an MMO and will probably add random events, drops, dungeons, bosses, etc. instead that will keep you interested (all probably in Inferno difficulty I would think).
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On August 04 2011 02:25 SiguR wrote:
The more I read about diablo 3, the less excited I am for it. Lately, it's been this way with most blizzard games.
Some of the things i'm reading about their plans for pvp absolutely blow my mind in the worst way possible. I think the core of the problem is the pressure to cater to mass casuals to make more money. The vast majority of the problems with starcraft 2/battlenet are related to this (though not all of them), and a number of the things i'm seeing wrong with diablo are also related.
And being in that mass casual slice of population, I can tell you that I'm getting more and MORE excited about the game.
I'm very happy that they are veering away from the ''if you don't play this 8 hours a day you're going to suck balls compared to other players'' style.
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I do not understand this random rune stuff. My understanding was that we would be able to, say, find a crimson rune, then socket it with a skill for a predetermined effect. Now, seems like we find unidentified runes, that become identified AFTER being socketed. So, what happens then? If I get an undesired effect, do I need to perform surgery on my character to remove the offending rune? Will there be any actual ability to know effects of runes before socketing, or is this just going to turn into another casino?
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On August 04 2011 02:13 trainRiderJ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 02:11 TheGlassface wrote:On August 04 2011 02:01 FireBearHero wrote:On August 04 2011 01:03 trainRiderJ wrote:On August 04 2011 00:37 FireBearHero wrote:
Hmmm I hope that list of passive skills isn't final.
#1) Numbers of skills/passives vary quite a bit from class to class. A small difference is understandable, but there is a pretty sizeable difference in that list. Barbarian (high) has like 10 more combined than the monk (low).
#2) A lot of those passives listed sound pretty boring, especially considering you only get to pick 3. In Bashiok's quote he said they wanted the passives to feel impactful. However, a large portion of the list seems bland and not game changing, things like small damage increases or small movement speed buff in certain scenarios. I will say that some of the list does look pretty damned sweet though. Damage increase depends on when the percentage is applied. If it's after all your other buffs and abilities, that would be pretty big at max level. Well what I mean is that they are game changing in the way they alter the way you play, not really just being viable. I probably shouldn't have used the word small in front of damage increases. Things that look more interesting to me would be, taking the monk as an example: + Show Spoiler +Frenzied attack (level 13): When wielding two weapons, the Monk has 20% increased critical strike chance and 30% increased critical strike damage.
Untouchable (level 19): After dealing a critical strike, increases dodge chance by 10% for 10 seconds.
Counterattack (level 20): When the Monk dodges an attack, the next skill has its Spirit cost reduced by 40%. A combo like this could change the way you play. By concentrating on critical strikes you can squeeze out more abilities that require spirit. But I suppose you need other things like straight forward damage builds to be the flip side of the play style. Lmao, these all sound like direct WoW ability ports. Hell..when you think about it..that's what this is now. Especially since you can't even play offline. Then again, the line between Diablo II and WoW isn't exactly too thick either.. 2009 called, they want their argument back. Anyways, I think it's safe to assume that both the active and passive skill lists that I linked aren't complete. There's at least one witch doctor skill (fireskull or whatever its' named) confirmed to be in the beta that's not in the list. Also, there's a big difference in the number of skills for each class.
That's the best you got huh?
Ok.
Well, I wasn't trying to argue anything. It's a fact. If I'm wrong, please explain. I don't care, seeing as how WoW was just WCIII + D2 + thrown against a wall and see what sticks. I played WoW and had fun. I could see having fun in DIII. Will it be the omgzbestgamevar? No. Will I spend anywhere near the amount of time I did in D1 and D2? I don't foresee it happening. Could I? Sure.
The LMAO comes from the fact that this keeps happening and no one seems to care. Blizzard has been rehashing things since WCII and acting like it's hot shit. DIRECT ports of monsters, reskins a plenty, DIRECT ports of abilities from game to game.
I don't even know if that makes it less of a game when they do these things, I just know what I'm seeing. It's lazy and shows complete lack of innovation. Again, I really want to stress, this MAY NOT be a bad thing. It's just funny to see.
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On August 04 2011 02:53 Shaithis wrote:
I do not understand this random rune stuff. My understanding was that we would be able to, say, find a crimson rune, then socket it with a skill for a predetermined effect. Now, seems like we find unidentified runes, that become identified AFTER being socketed. So, what happens then? If I get an undesired effect, do I need to perform surgery on my character to remove the offending rune? Will there be any actual ability to know effects of runes before socketing, or is this just going to turn into another casino?
From what I gather it's gonna be easy to swap out runes, so no surgery but yes, this is confusing.
Well, that's what the BETA is for, testing testing testing. If it's too confusing they will change it.
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On August 04 2011 02:50 Probe1 wrote:
Just to finish out your post Diks.. Roaches were 1 supply. The balance of beta SC2 was so supremely fucked up that I'd say it was an unfinished game until they tweaked it!
Yep. You had to have 2 Phoenixes for every 3 Mutalisks to end harassment because they couldn't kite. Going Phoenixes in response to a Muta+Ling build was utterly suicidal (they could just fly in and snipe them one by one as you made them at 45s a piece) and always ended in getting overrun by economy and Speedlings because you had to make too many Cannons and/or Blink Stalkers to keep the Mutas at bay.
Then there was the 1 Immortal, 3-Gate Bunker Bust against Terran that just facerolled over every opening build.
Oh, except Marauder spam, prior to the Conc Shell upgrade. Terran could just pump out early Marauders one by one and charge head-first into your base as they came out. You couldn't hope to equal their number, or accumulate even a half-decent gateway force to hold them off, since they could beat Stalkers 1on1, and kill Zealots and Sentries with ease. Always ended up in a pulled mineral line and eventual defeat.
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I'm not sure runes will be in beta. It will only be like the first third of act 1. I recall Jay Wilson saying that runes started to pop up in act 2 during one of the interviews from the press event. Though it is certainly possible they'll let beta testers play with them at some point.
As for how they will work, it is hard to say because they are in the middle of revising it. Bashiok said on the forums that the whole "not knowing what type it is until you use it" isn't set in stone. I for one hope it doesn't end up like that. I'm cool with random affixes that you don't discover until use and binding to skills, but I don't like not knowing the type until you use it.
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On August 04 2011 02:53 Shaithis wrote:
I do not understand this random rune stuff. My understanding was that we would be able to, say, find a crimson rune, then socket it with a skill for a predetermined effect. Now, seems like we find unidentified runes, that become identified AFTER being socketed. So, what happens then? If I get an undesired effect, do I need to perform surgery on my character to remove the offending rune? Will there be any actual ability to know effects of runes before socketing, or is this just going to turn into another casino?
You can unsocket the rune and put another one. It's not very difficult to understand. Would you rather just pay 1 gold and have all the items you'd ever want delivered to your shared stash? Would the game be fun then?
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On August 04 2011 03:18 Bairemuth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 02:53 Shaithis wrote:
I do not understand this random rune stuff. My understanding was that we would be able to, say, find a crimson rune, then socket it with a skill for a predetermined effect. Now, seems like we find unidentified runes, that become identified AFTER being socketed. So, what happens then? If I get an undesired effect, do I need to perform surgery on my character to remove the offending rune? Will there be any actual ability to know effects of runes before socketing, or is this just going to turn into another casino?
You can unsocket the rune and put another one. It's not very difficult to understand. Would you rather just pay 1 gold and have all the items you'd ever want delivered to your shared stash? Would the game be fun then?
I think that his point was that it's gambling. You might have a decent Rune in your slot now, but you have to sacrifice that to have a chance that the new one you slot in will be better. The better the current Rune is, the more you risk, because you can't get that Rune back and the new one you tried might be utter garbage.
On the bright side, it means the value of Runes will plummet, since every Rune will come attached with a stipulation that even though it could be the best rune ever, it might also be a colossal pile of doggy doo and you have to take the personal risk to find out.
In essence, it's like he said; a casino system.
Edit: Going to digest it all again to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass with the 'not being able to get the old Rune back' thing.
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On August 04 2011 03:29 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:18 Bairemuth wrote:On August 04 2011 02:53 Shaithis wrote:
I do not understand this random rune stuff. My understanding was that we would be able to, say, find a crimson rune, then socket it with a skill for a predetermined effect. Now, seems like we find unidentified runes, that become identified AFTER being socketed. So, what happens then? If I get an undesired effect, do I need to perform surgery on my character to remove the offending rune? Will there be any actual ability to know effects of runes before socketing, or is this just going to turn into another casino?
You can unsocket the rune and put another one. It's not very difficult to understand. Would you rather just pay 1 gold and have all the items you'd ever want delivered to your shared stash? Would the game be fun then? I think that his point was that it's gambling. You might have a decent Rune in your slot now, but you have to sacrifice that to have a chance that the new one you slot in will be better. The better the current Rune is, the more you risk, because you can't get that Rune back and the new one you tried might be utter garbage. On the bright side, it means the value of Runes will plummet, since every Rune will come attached with a stipulation that even though it could be the best rune ever, it might also be a colossal pile of doggy doo and you have to take the personal risk to find out. In essence, it's like he said; a casino system. Edit: Going to digest it all again to make sure I'm not talking out of my ass with the 'not being able to get the old Rune back' thing.
I'm pretty sure you can get your rune back. Pretty much everything I've heard implied that, if it wasn't even said directly. They even talked about selling specific "magic missile" runes in the AH, if I remember correctly, and that would be impossible without removing it, they would be blank.
On August 04 2011 03:18 FireBearHero wrote:
I'm not sure runes will be in beta. It will only be like the first third of act 1. I recall Jay Wilson saying that runes started to pop up in act 2 during one of the interviews from the press event. Though it is certainly possible they'll let beta testers play with them at some point.
As for how they will work, it is hard to say because they are in the middle of revising it. Bashiok said on the forums that the whole "not knowing what type it is until you use it" isn't set in stone. I for one hope it doesn't end up like that. I'm cool with random affixes that you don't discover until use and binding to skills, but I don't like not knowing the type until you use it.
I also remember Jay Wilson saying that, and that the rune overall wasn't an issue with beta because they weren't avaible in Act 1, or something similar.
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On August 04 2011 03:11 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 02:50 Probe1 wrote:
Just to finish out your post Diks.. Roaches were 1 supply. The balance of beta SC2 was so supremely fucked up that I'd say it was an unfinished game until they tweaked it! Yep. You had to have 2 Phoenixes for every 3 Mutalisks to end harassment because they couldn't kite. Going Phoenixes in response to a Muta+Ling build was utterly suicidal (they could just fly in and snipe them one by one as you made them at 45s a piece) and always ended in getting overrun by economy and Speedlings because you had to make too many Cannons and/or Blink Stalkers to keep the Mutas at bay.Then there was the 1 Immortal, 3-Gate Bunker Bust against Terran that just facerolled over every opening build. Oh, except Marauder spam, prior to the Conc Shell upgrade. Terran could just pump out early Marauders one by one and charge head-first into your base as they came out. You couldn't hope to equal their number, or accumulate even a half-decent gateway force to hold them off, since they could beat Stalkers 1on1, and kill Zealots and Sentries with ease. Always ended up in a pulled mineral line and eventual defeat.
And this has changed?
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Makes sense. No need to overwhelm a new player with too many options and mechanics straight away. Gotta ease them in.
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On August 04 2011 03:36 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:11 Bibdy wrote:On August 04 2011 02:50 Probe1 wrote:
Just to finish out your post Diks.. Roaches were 1 supply. The balance of beta SC2 was so supremely fucked up that I'd say it was an unfinished game until they tweaked it! Yep. You had to have 2 Phoenixes for every 3 Mutalisks to end harassment because they couldn't kite. Going Phoenixes in response to a Muta+Ling build was utterly suicidal (they could just fly in and snipe them one by one as you made them at 45s a piece) and always ended in getting overrun by economy and Speedlings because you had to make too many Cannons and/or Blink Stalkers to keep the Mutas at bay.Then there was the 1 Immortal, 3-Gate Bunker Bust against Terran that just facerolled over every opening build. Oh, except Marauder spam, prior to the Conc Shell upgrade. Terran could just pump out early Marauders one by one and charge head-first into your base as they came out. You couldn't hope to equal their number, or accumulate even a half-decent gateway force to hold them off, since they could beat Stalkers 1on1, and kill Zealots and Sentries with ease. Always ended up in a pulled mineral line and eventual defeat. And this has changed?
In a straight-up stand-still fight, no. But, they can fire while moving now, thus they can kite and deal damage without getting hit. One or two phoenixes in the hands of a good player is enough to scare off a much bigger blob of Mutalisks than they could before that change.
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You can definitely reclaim runes from your skills, but they remain "attuned", "activated", "identified", or whatever you want to call it. At that point you can sell them, keep them for other builds, etc.
Note that per Bashiok's latest comments this system isn't set in stone. Runes seem like the last game feature to be really locked down.
Regarding the beta, there have been a couple good Blizzard quotes and I'll try to paraphrase: Basically, they don't need to test balance even remotely as much as for SC2 because it's a cooperative game and they can always go back and change things. They don't need us to test quests, "fun factor" of abilities, or the story itself either. What they DO need us to test is the completely new battle.net infrastructure. Apparently although it's still "Battle.net 2" and tied to SC2, most or all of the Diablo 3 battle.net systems are completely new. Another major testing point is the wide variety of PC hardware configurations. Because of the this, the beta should be smaller in scope as compared to SC2, both in terms of duration and number of testers.
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EPT
