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APurpleCow

United States1372 Posts

August 20 2010 18:31 GMT

#13481

If you just killed 3-5 of your opponents in the team fight and can choose between getting Baron or killing a base turret+inhibitor, which would you choose?

I'm not sure which is better =/

TheGreenMachine

United States730 Posts

August 20 2010 18:38 GMT

#13482

On August 21 2010 03:31 APurpleCow wrote:
If you just killed 3-5 of your opponents in the team fight and can choose between getting Baron or killing a base turret+inhibitor, which would you choose?

I'm not sure which is better =/

My vote is inhib. Baron usually takes less time though and some anti pusher could spawn in the next 10 sec that couldn't stop you from doing baron. Pretty situational I guess, if inhib is possible go for that!

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

August 20 2010 18:39 GMT

#13483

On August 21 2010 03:22 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
I'm at lvl 25 right now, mostly doing solo or duo queue, so 99% of the time I take a side lane with a partner, normally Rammus but sometimes just some random champ. I definitely 100% would rush Mejai's every game if I wasn't in solo/duo queue where I feel like it's just too unpredictable, though I have done it several times (with mixed results).

Well me and Shikyo have shouted at each other over Soulstealer, but here's my oft-repeated standing on it.

1) Assuming you use Wand and NLR as baselines for gold per AP efficiency, 860 = 40 and 1600 = 80. That means for SS to be worth its weight (being around 1200) it needs to have about 60 AP. minus the base 20 you get you need 40, so that's 5 stacks. From my experience 5 stacks isn't very hard to hit, and if you're genuinely struggling to hit 5 you can always sell it and get back like 600. Just shrug it off and reason that you simply bought and used two Brilliance Elixirs up to that point.
2) It's the single strongest "come-back" item as well as a "closer" item for a caster like Kassadin, because once you start rolling you're actually rolling (snowball items are extremely cost-efficient with regards to kills, because you're basically getting "free gold" as your stacks add up - if you get a solo kill you get like, what 300 gold? + 16 AP which is worth like 300 gold itself). If you're behind but you instantly get 6 stacks off one teamfight, as opposed to simply getting some gold and a teamfight victory you get a whopping 50 AP. Essentially in one teamfight with SS you can swing the game by like 100 AP which incredible. And if you keep this rolling, in two teamfights you can easily spike up over 200 AP - not only is this incredibly game-changing but it also puts your team securely in the lead.
3) Is itemization which I'll touch on in a bit.

On August 21 2010 03:22 DefMatrixUltra wrote:As for runes, I have a wide array of mostly Tier 1 runes (slowly converting stuff to Tier 3) to cover just about any champ except maybe Udyr. So stuff like MPen/ArmPen, mp5/lvl etc. is all accounted for, and I even have some Movespeed Quints that I got for Singed (and that I am currently using on Kassadin).

At the moment I'm switching to MPen Quints, MPen marks, MP5PL Seals, and MPen Glyphs, but I'm still running mostly MP5PL Glyphs due to a lack of IP. So you're doing fine.

On August 21 2010 03:22 DefMatrixUltra wrote:To be honest, I wouldn't know what to do in mid. Would I have to take an earlier W to charge up E? I would ideally want to take mid, if only for the level advantage to set up a super-strong gank (not to mention Kass is very threatening in 1v1).

When you take a solo lane you're essentially damning yourself to two goals. The first is to win the lane (via Q spam) and the second is to farm as fast as you humanly can. Unfortunately these two goals are tied to each other - as a melee hero you can't really farm if you're being pushed off creep. My usual skill order goes Q W Q E Q R Q E Q, getting an early W to recharge mana faster. This way I can constantly barrage the opponent with Q and whittle them down. Due to the massive range of Q, the decent damage it does, and on the strength of Medi/SoS/Ring you'll almost always win the lane provided you play it well. Against certain heroes (Ashe, Ezreal, Vlad) it's tricky because of the similar ranges, but there's rarely a cakewalk :p Just gotta suck it up and have skill.

In the event you lose, you need to switch gears. I've only lost once of late, but the moment I realized it (one death too late) I switched to a fast Soulstealer and started ganking. That's what Kassadin does.

On August 21 2010 03:22 DefMatrixUltra wrote:I noticed bigfatjiji went Doran's ring --> RoA --> Rylai's, but that seems like you would 100% need mid to farm enough money.

He plays a Korean Kassadin, something I've begun to adopt as I've taken solo lanes. If you're primarily side-laning you should ignore this and run something more akin to my old build/statikk's build, which was a Soustealer rush into Tears + GA (statikk goes straight SS -> GA but he also runs Clarity/Ghost because he's got more guts than I do). Cata is very cost-intensive for little offensive gain, and if you're in sidelane you're struggle mightily to farm up the money for it without it becoming irrelevant, IMO. Incidentally GJ runs Ring -> Cata -> SS -> RoA -> Zhon, which is more-or-less what I do, but I've been known to mix things up (Kassadin is flexible) to weird things like Ring -> Cata -> SS -> Ring -> Haunting -> RoA -> GA while spamming Brilliance Elixir the whole game.

This kinda goes back to your "I don't have enough AP" thing. For better or for worse, this build relies on Soulstealer and requires you to be confident in your ability to get and maintain stacks, and you may feel it's "unreliable" but by nature of being side-lane you're not expected to carry anyways. So you start off being more of a support hero with Soulstealer and Tear - your job becomes mostly to gank with the silence and snare and be like Janna.

As you work up stacks (if you lack oomph then you need to spam Elixirs) you become stronger and stronger and thus a higher priority target. That's where GA comes in - it gives you survivability, lets you initiate, and gives you a buffer for your precious stacks (because it's the only AP item you have). Eventually you'll finish Archangel and then move onto more stuff, but you get the idea.

Edit:

On August 21 2010 03:30 Mogwai wrote:
ok, so I guess you should really get Utah's opinion on this, but from what I'm reading, I'd suggest you max our your blue/yellow mp5pls and MPen reds, open doran's ring, then work towards the sorc boots + Haunting Guise opening for a more consistently powerful early game. You could probably work a Tear in there relatively easily, not sure if it should be before or after the guise, but if Mejai's is still giving you mixed results because you're still getting a hang of the character, HG should yield more consistent early-mid game results with the bonus survivability and magic pen. I'm not really sure how to transition this build towards the late game, so again, I'd wait on southlight's response, but I think d-ring, sorc, HG will give you the early game consistency that Mejai's is lacking while still considerably upping your damage output.

A long time ago I tried rushing HG + Sorc like I do on solo-mid Anivia but what I realized was that if you're side-lane you simply don't have enough mana/damage to make it matter (compared to like a solo mid Kassadin or Ezreal or whatnot) and it's really rare you'll get golem over a jungler or solo-mid anyways. I mean when you're level 7 and the carries (the four solos in most games) are level 10 your "damage" isn't very worthwhile. It's why I ended up evolving (devolving?) to the Tears + SS build - two cheap items that roll into midgame okay, so that even if you don't get creep kills you'll still naturally become pretty strong. The other + side of Tear is that you won't need Golem, so if you have someone from the solo lanes needing Golem you can happily defer.

On the other hand if you're solo mid your damage is okay but again I'm not sure if your mana pool is enough to win a protracted fight (~60 mana pen is nice but not only is it usually overkill at the beginning, it doesn't build into late-game so it's even more all-in than Soulstealer - especially on a hero like Kassadin who's actually significantly worse than the Annie/Anivia triple-hit combo).

Edit2:
Incidentally I believe DaeSeisBaluP and Merakon have on occasion gone Banshee-first solo-mid Kassadin. Unfortunately I'm not sure why they opted to do that, except for Merakon who may have been afraid of my side-lane Kassadin (T_T) jacking up his survival. Case in point because of Banshee I couldn't stop him from facerolling my team.

Fishcakes

United States149 Posts

August 20 2010 18:39 GMT

#13484

For Baron or Inhib, depends how much health you have after the fight. You should never die to baron,

myopia

United States2928 Posts

August 20 2010 18:40 GMT

#13485

On August 21 2010 03:08 Southlight wrote:
if they were relying on community tournaments they were banking on the wrong thing because the community is way too fragmented (no primary gathering site other than arguably the official forum) for that sort of thing to work.

On August 21 2010 03:25 Mogwai wrote:
First LoCicero and now L0CUST, lol o_O

is this thread a really high hit on google or something if you search for League of Legends?

Hm...

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

August 20 2010 18:41 GMT

#13486

That's a no-brainer. The inhibitor. You can always bait them/wait-out Baron afterwards, because if you stand around Baron and dare them to stop you, their base will get auto-pushed. If they send one person to take care of their base you instantly get a "free" 5v4, or if they're smart and pull back you get ample time to Baron, etc. It puts a lot of pressure on them.

Edit:
By the way assuming you opt for the inhibitor, your team must heal ASAP afterwards. Don't fuck around; if the other team is smart and catches you napping they'll simply bumrush Baron themselves while you screw around and delay healing and you won't be able to do anything about it. This is an often game-changing mistake. Don't do it.

Obzy

United States525 Posts

August 20 2010 18:56 GMT

#13487

On August 20 2010 10:52 H wrote:

Show nested quote +

Thanks for the advice dude. Didn't think of using a fort pot instead of tank itemisation.. I played a game the other day where the enemy Panth was the squishiest champion they had on their team which kinda disappointed me, but that should help a bit.

This thread moves so quickly, I'm like 10 pages late here. (Also, I normally just lurk and never post.)

I've been playing Pantheon a lot recently (account name Obzy), but don't really know if I'm using a good rune setup - apen marks - mp/lvl seals - cd reduct glyphs - flat health quints --

What would any of the more experienced Pantheon players here (And there seem to be many ^^) recommend with regards to rune setups?

In addition, where should Panth go if there's no jungler? Thanks in advance, if anybody has any pointers =)

BlueBird.

United States3889 Posts

August 20 2010 19:02 GMT

#13488

If there's no jungler, no reason not to jungle... :D

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

August 20 2010 19:09 GMT

#13489

you're laning with him?

if laning, use:
armor pen marks
mana regen per level seals
mana regen per level glyphs
armor pen quints

honestly I don't have much to say in the way on laning with Pantheon these days. I'll do it on occasion, but I'll only really do it for a double stun on a side lane, but at this point I'm really just a jungle Pantheon specialist. SIGH, god do I miss my old Panth solo-mid days.

ghen

United States1356 Posts

August 20 2010 19:27 GMT

#13490

I'm starting to warm to smite more and more as a throwaway skill choice. I've been using it as anti-heimer and jungle if possible, but even in a lane its really easy money on single target champs like nunu.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

August 20 2010 19:29 GMT

#13491

eh, I'd still recommend against it in lane, but people who are obsessed with jungling without smite drive me crazy.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

August 20 2010 19:30 GMT

#13492

Extremely easy. You first kill the base turret and inhib, and while they're clearing the minions there you get baron as well.

Mogwai

United States13274 Posts

August 20 2010 19:31 GMT

#13493

they say fuck minions, ace you, take baron and counter push. good decision making shikyo!

DefMatrixUltra

Canada1992 Posts

August 20 2010 19:32 GMT

#13494

On August 21 2010 03:39 Southlight wrote:

(Soulstealer sermon) [1]

My usual skill order goes Q W Q E Q R Q E Q, getting an early W to recharge mana faster. This way I can constantly barrage the opponent with Q and whittle them down. [2]

[1] You know, I've seen all the math and firmly believe that Soulstealer is one of the best items in the game. I think you've finally convinced me to use it. You're right that even if I do "poorly" with it early on (not getting the stacks up), it could turn me into a monster over the course of a 5-second fight.

[2] It's funny how incredibly smart and obvious it sounds when you say that. In side lanes, I just go E > Q and ignore W until I'm forced to. But in mid, what you're saying makes perfect sense and I feel like I could carry it out easily. I have "a lot" of mid experience since Morgana was my first "serious" champ (and still my best to date).

Thanks very much for your advice.

Southlight

United States11768 Posts

August 20 2010 19:34 GMT

#13495

Side lane my skill order tends to be completely by feel and intuition, I rarely do the same thing twice in a row, hahah. There's some skill-order deviation solo mid against certain matchups as well (ie. vs Sivir) but for the most part it just takes like 3 seconds of common sense to figure it out, so that shouldn't be a big issue.

Edit:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129727&currentpage=373#7460

Is the "guide" I'd written before. As I mentioned, I've absorbed a bit more of a Korean playstyle these days with solo, but most of that guide still holds true for side-laning. The item section still works, too.