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On October 06 2010 03:20 Brees wrote:
not entirely true, really overpowered runes like armor penetration are a huge huge difference.
I was terrible at ranged DPS champs and I couldnt understand why. I had HP quints, CD and other generic stats.
Then I bought Mp5 yellows and armor pen quints, now I suddenly rape with these heroes? not buying it
again, this anecdotal evidence means nothing. do you now win 100% of games that you would have lost with your old runeset? no, you don't. you still have bad games and the difference between mp5/level runes and hp quints isn't going to win you a game if you're playing poorly.
which is the point i'm trying to make. do mp5's suit your playstyle more? sure, you can spam more. but you'll also die faster as compared to armor yellows. it's literally SO MINUTE that obsessing over runepages gives a purely psychological advantage.
On October 06 2010 03:20 PanN wrote:
I'm going to disagree completely. Being a starcraft player, any single little advantage helps in the long run.
in this case, "the long run" is the span of several hundred games though. as i've said, runes won't help you overcome a bad decision or poor positioning
On October 06 2010 03:21 Scamp wrote:
As someone who likes to play a lot of jungle characters, I can certainly attest that those minute differences often matter quite a bit.
Probably doesn't matter as much if you're laning, though.
i will give you this. certain runes do help a ton in the jungle. the difference is much more noticeable in the jungle because your opponents (the creeps) will always react the same every game, whereas over a span of 100 games you'll play 100 different opponents who all react differently to your reactions in lanes
southlight wrote:
a bunch of really specific examples that really have no place in a general discussion about runes
oh
okay
here's what you're not taking into account. a taric comes to lane with low armor: you harass him to great effect. a taric comes to lane with high armor: you harass him to much less effect. if you were to do the exact same actions against a high armor taric, you'd be making a bad decision. his armor runes aren't giving him some unbeatable advantage, they're just forcing you to play differently. if you make the terrible decision to auto attack taric, was it his runes that beat you or your poor play?
and regardless, your team of 5 is definitely on the highest level of all the TL players here. i think you play with smash, shake, ezpz and someone else right? you're all like 1600-1800+ level players. your level of play is much higher, your actions and decision making are much stronger than most of the 1000-1300 level players that post in this thread, not to mention that if you're playing pre-mades the level of teamwork and precision is much higher too. maybe runes do help at your level (i still doubt it, i'm sticking with my psychological advantage theory), but that doesn't change the fact that at a 1250 level game, if Pandonetho gets a kill in lane with +36% attack speed kayle, it's not because he could attack so fast, it's more likely because his terrible opponent underestimated his killing power
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United States37500 Posts
lol, wat? Are you really discounting examples as too specific?
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i think everyone is saying the same thing:
1) runes matter a lot if you're good
2) runes matter a lot less than you think if you're bad
3) whoever is complaining about business model making game less competitive is most likely bad
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On October 06 2010 03:36 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:20 Brees wrote:
not entirely true, really overpowered runes like armor penetration are a huge huge difference.
I was terrible at ranged DPS champs and I couldnt understand why. I had HP quints, CD and other generic stats.
Then I bought Mp5 yellows and armor pen quints, now I suddenly rape with these heroes? not buying it again, this anecdotal evidence means nothing. do you now win 100% of games that you would have lost with your old runeset? no, you don't. you still have bad games and the difference between mp5/level runes and hp quints isn't going to win you a game if you're playing poorly. which is the point i'm trying to make. do mp5's suit your playstyle more? sure, you can spam more. but you'll also die faster as compared to armor yellows. it's literally SO MINUTE that obsessing over runepages gives a purely psychological advantage. Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:20 PanN wrote:
I'm going to disagree completely. Being a starcraft player, any single little advantage helps in the long run.
in this case, "the long run" is the span of several hundred games though. as i've said, runes won't help you overcome a bad decision or poor positioning Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:21 Scamp wrote:
As someone who likes to play a lot of jungle characters, I can certainly attest that those minute differences often matter quite a bit.
Probably doesn't matter as much if you're laning, though. i will give you this. certain runes do help a ton in the jungle. the difference is much more noticeable in the jungle because your opponents (the creeps) will always react the same every game, whereas over a span of 100 games you'll play 100 different opponents who all react differently to your reactions in lanes Show nested quote +southlight wrote:
a bunch of really specific examples that really have no place in a general discussion about runes oh okay here's what you're not taking into account. a taric comes to lane with low armor: you harass him to great effect. a taric comes to lane with high armor: you harass him to much less effect. if you were to do the exact same actions against a high armor taric, you'd be making a bad decision. his armor runes aren't giving him some unbeatable advantage, they're just forcing you to play differently. if you make the terrible decision to auto attack taric, was it his runes that beat you or your poor play? and regardless, your team of 5 is definitely on the highest level of all the TL players here. i think you play with smash, shake, ezpz and someone else right? you're all like 1600-1800+ level players. your level of play is much higher, your actions and decision making are much stronger than most of the 1000-1300 level players that post in this thread, not to mention that if you're playing pre-mades the level of teamwork and precision is much higher too. maybe runes do help at your level (i still doubt it, i'm sticking with my psychological advantage theory), but that doesn't change the fact that at a 1250 level game, if Pandonetho gets a kill in lane with +36% attack speed kayle, it's not because he could attack so fast, it's more likely because his terrible opponent underestimated his killing power
actually yea, I havent lose a game with twitch yet whereas I used to feed everygame with him.
soo...so much for your explanation 
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Hahah, he's banned most of the time and I thought he was 3150 :p + Nunu is cheaper, and works filthy well with Kayle/Ashe :D
@L0cust:
It's a bit like ArenaNet and Guild Wars, which is unfortunate but... in the grand scheme of things there's not a whole lot that can be forced about it. The reality is that the competitive scene maybe takes up 1% (and that's being generous!) of the total player base... and the game is extremely difficult to play competitively so 99% of the remaining 99.X% will never reach that point... and probably don't realistically aspire to do so. Even within the 1% of players that try to be competitive, probably 90% of them won't ever reach super competitive status by merit of how difficult it is to match the existing top teams. That means there's no incentive for the company to really cater to the top players, because they'd only really be catering to like 40 people.
Aside from HSGG probably 99% of players don't even know anything about the top, either. It was amazing how few people wondered about the lack of grandjudge/lilballz/lilac etc. because they've simply never heard of them. That speaks to how "replaceable" these players are, despite how skilled they are.
Also the other cold, hard truth is that if the top players were all to quit, no one would shed tears, with the possible exception of HSGG (who has become like the face of LoL, which is somewhat unfortunate given how polarizing a figure he is based on his attitude). Other, less skilled players would simply take their place, and you could even argue that the game would become more accessible competitively to more people, making more people aspire to become competitive, and so on and so forth. It's not what top players want to hear, but you can really, really argue that it's better for the community if the unknown top players were to "go away."
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On October 06 2010 03:41 NeoIllusions wrote:
lol, wat? Are you really discounting examples as too specific?
yes? when you boot up a game and set your runepages, you don't set them thinking "hey this page will be really really good if they have a movespeed jungle eve! and this one will be great against 79 armor taric! oh WOW they better hope they don't have a boots-first HP-quint armor-pen garen cause this is gonna FUCK HIS SHIT!!!" so what's the point in mentioning specific matchups?
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if Pandonetho gets a kill in lane with +36% attack speed kayle, it's not because he could attack so fast, it's more likely because his terrible opponent underestimated his killing power
Not exactly. The kills I'm remembering were when I ghosted to dive a champ running away and managed to attack him enough times to kill him before he escaped simply because I had attack speed runes. Otherwise he might have gotten away 1 attack short of a death.
But I digress.
My point is that runes DO make a difference, as I apparently in vain tried to point out with my last post. They're the difference between getting first blood and giving it. They can lead you to a big early game advantage. Of course everyone else has runes too. That's why you're at a DISadvantage if you have no runes.
Let's face the facts. Runes give your champ a mechanical advantage over another champ. Where in a battle 2 champs might square off A might win, but because of runes, B will win in a battle, or harassment. This can effectively change the flow of a lane depending on how well you play with your advantage. No one ever said (well not me anyway) that you can just put on a bunch of runes and then A-move to win.
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Runes always matter, at all levels.
Lanes are won often through small marginal advantages that get amplified. If you do even slightly more damage than your opponent, then over several exchanges your advantage will become massive enough that they can't even begin to engage you, and that's when they take free hits from just trying to farm, which then leads to massive zoning, which then leads to being at a level and farm disadvantage.
All because of maybe 96HP.
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On October 06 2010 03:44 Brees wrote:actually yea, I havent lose a game with twitch yet whereas I used to feed everygame with him. soo...so much for your explanation
touche, can't argue with solid facts like that^^
i forfeit i guess i should have put my argumentative skill quints on for this matchup, i heard you can never lose against a Brees with those
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There are heroes that you can't play without mp5/lvl runes.. you simply would need to just give up your lane without them... , you need to run back to base constantly, or take blue when you would otherwise not need it.
As far as other runes.. of course they make a large difference.. that's why you mostly play lvl 30s when your lvl 30, and lvl 1 when your lvl 1.
When I played at WCG without runes I specifically chose Vladamir and Garen... no mana, no huge reliance on runes..
When your first starting out, I think you really only need mpen/apen, mp5/mp5, health quints..
then you can specialize for the champions you like to play, eventually your gonna own all the runes etc.
The system is not the BEST, but it's not this long grind that you guys are making it out to be.. very few players in the history of gaming DON'T play the game they are playing tournaments for. When you play and practice, you automatically accumulate IP, when you do well, you get even more IP.
Some heroes might not be available to you right away, but do you really need all 60 heroes? I have them, I must say I don't use most of them at all, some I won't touch
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On October 06 2010 03:46 Pandonetho wrote:
Of course everyone else has runes too.
i think you hit the nail on the head here. you need runes just for the sake of having runes because everyone has them, but as for the specific runes you need, the advantage you get from such minute advantage is far outweighed by your play decisions and teamwork as opposed to the difference between 40 armor and 36% atspd
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On October 06 2010 03:35 Ordained wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 19:39 redtooth wrote:On October 05 2010 19:30 Kaniol wrote:
I'd like to know some good AD Ez build as well... diva's build may not be optimal but is super fun. sort of needs a cooperative jungler to consistently give you red but when it happens you snowball really well. he's not the best ezreal but he definitely wasn't bad at it and it was a distinctively fun style. 15/0/15 ignite/flash aPen/mp5/mp5/aPen R>Q>E>W (don't skill W until late) dorans, boots of mobility, dorans, brutalizer, BT, GA Damn, thats my exact build for him.
how about
tiamat boots of mobility tiamat tiamat tiamat tiamat
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Swain is coming out just in time for Tiamat Tuesday
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United States37500 Posts
On October 06 2010 03:45 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:41 NeoIllusions wrote:
lol, wat? Are you really discounting examples as too specific? yes? when you boot up a game and set your runepages, you don't set them thinking "hey this page will be really really good if they have a movespeed jungle eve! and this one will be great against 79 armor taric! oh WOW they better hope they don't have a boots-first HP-quint armor-pen garen cause this is gonna FUCK HIS SHIT!!!" so what's the point in mentioning specific matchups?
It's draft mode? More often than not, you will see what the other team has.
"Oh, they have a Taric? I think I'll play a dps carry. Better get them Armor Pen runes so I can shit on his armor."
I think you're waving runes off a bit too much. Runes like red Armor Pen, yellow Mana Regen, and blue Magic Resist, those matter a ton early game.
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On October 06 2010 03:45 Southlight wrote:
It's not what top players want to hear, but you can really, really argue that it's better for the community if the unknown top players were to "go away."
I guess. There are a lot of delusional people in this community  I will say most of the players being unknown is because there isn't a replay system or observer mode. The scene is dead at the moment, but I doubt many people care xD we can all revel about WCG for a while.
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On October 06 2010 03:49 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:35 Ordained wrote:On October 05 2010 19:39 redtooth wrote:On October 05 2010 19:30 Kaniol wrote:
I'd like to know some good AD Ez build as well... diva's build may not be optimal but is super fun. sort of needs a cooperative jungler to consistently give you red but when it happens you snowball really well. he's not the best ezreal but he definitely wasn't bad at it and it was a distinctively fun style. 15/0/15 ignite/flash aPen/mp5/mp5/aPen R>Q>E>W (don't skill W until late) dorans, boots of mobility, dorans, brutalizer, BT, GA Damn, thats my exact build for him. how about tiamat boots of mobility tiamat tiamat tiamat tiamat
Mystic Shot doublekill only acceptable ezreal double kill.
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On October 06 2010 03:36 gtrsrs wrote:
<snip> (sorry I suck at touchpad so it's hard cropping the post - I have faith y'all can figure out what I'm responding to)
Touche, I wasn't really trying to bring the skill-level thing into play here but... yeah, if you bring that up that changes things >_>
With regards to Taric, it's the difference between winning a lane and losing a lane. If you push Taric off lane he's worthless, but if Taric can stay within the creep wave he'll obliterate your lane. For a while EzPz was like wooooooh Taric lemme on him! as MF but then he runs into the first true Taric player with the 79 armor page and he comes back crying 5 minutes later about "that imba Taric." Quite funny.
My overlying point was, though, that the runes do make a big impact if built properly for certain champions. At our level of play when we see a big Taric like that we need to play around it - at lower levels of play you can easily see that Taric roll into an unstoppable pushing lane, and the game is wrecked simply because he actually bought runes for Taric and no one knows how to deal with it. Fortunately(?) armor runes are under-used at low levels of play so you don't often see this level of ridiculousness. Case in point, Mordekaiser is played a lot at lower levels of play but everyone's too stupid to invest in armor/MR runes, so he looks really crappy, whereas a decked out Morde will walk through people and cannot be stopped. At one point EzPz thought he could take on Mord with Annie because he can "autoattack him" but since then he's learned that a true Mord player will laugh at him.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 06 2010 03:51 L0CUST. wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:45 Southlight wrote:
It's not what top players want to hear, but you can really, really argue that it's better for the community if the unknown top players were to "go away." I guess. There are a lot of delusional people in this community I will say most of the players being unknown is because there isn't a replay system or observer mode. The scene is dead at the moment, but I doubt many people care xD we can all revel about WCG for a while.
I was talking to Chauster yesterday about WCG. It's f'ing amusing how everyone is riding bigfatjiji's epeen after his Ashe arrow at nationals.
And yes, replays/obs mode would definitely raise the game quality in a matter of weeks. It may make the game a little vanilla ("oh, let's just copy what HotShot does step by step") but we'd get a stronger community out of it at least.
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On October 06 2010 03:50 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2010 03:45 gtrsrs wrote:On October 06 2010 03:41 NeoIllusions wrote:
lol, wat? Are you really discounting examples as too specific? yes? when you boot up a game and set your runepages, you don't set them thinking "hey this page will be really really good if they have a movespeed jungle eve! and this one will be great against 79 armor taric! oh WOW they better hope they don't have a boots-first HP-quint armor-pen garen cause this is gonna FUCK HIS SHIT!!!" so what's the point in mentioning specific matchups? It's draft mode? More often than not, you will see what the other team has. "Oh, they have a Taric? I think I'll play a dps carry. Better get them Armor Pen runes so I can shit on his armor." I think you're waving runes off a bit too much. Runes like red Armor Pen, yellow Mana Regen, and blue Magic Resist, those matter a ton early game.
1) you can't change your runepages (you can switch between them, but you can't alter them specifically) to cater to certain champ matchups
2) you can't know which lanes you'll have in a solo queue game
3) i'm not waving off runes. i'm saying you can win just as many games running armor/mres kayle as you can attack speed kayle. i just get so frustrated when people give anecdotal evidence as to why certain runes are better than others based on games they've won, and ignore games they've lost having the same rune set-up
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EPT
