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On June 05 2010 14:01 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 13:04 Spenguin wrote:
Isn't it a highlight of this sort of event on TL where different people with different goals and idea for the game come together and play, why divide it into games where people don't have to adapt to other players decisions? One of the things about succession games is that lower-skilled players end up just doing what they're told because they don't want to mess it up for everyone else. Maybe it would be fun to have a Prince game where everyone from chieftain to immortal is welcomed and encouraged to do whatever the heck they want instead of following the collective game plan. Like last game, what if instead of space race someone just decided they wanted to invade india/japan instead and go for domination? Then again, maybe that would destroy the spirit of a succession game and take most of the fun out of it.
And also because it would be fun to see divergent outcomes instead of majority rules. Maybe some would have liked to go domination, but hey, his path was fixed.
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Well I think the biggest worry was that the players who arent as skilled felt like they would mess up the game. No-one really wants to be the person who reports in his post, "oh yeah I lost three cities this turn". And its intimidating when someone posts out the maths behind their decision or something. (Im not saying this shouldnt be done of course)
This thinking results in games being very skewed towards the better players. People will abstain from playing rather than play a turn where they feel they might let the team down. Its this thinking that needs to be abolished because all it results in is a game where only the best players on Teamliquid play.
The reason I dont think the noble game will work is because noble mode will result in a landslide victory. So people will decide they should up the difficulty next game, which results in people fearing they will mess it up and not playing etc. and it spirals back into the same situation we have now.
People need to lose that fear of losing or letting the team down. The stronger players should be holding the weaker players up, not playing a game by themselves. This game is about learning as well as fun. If the stronger players explain their choices well, the weaker players can learn an enormous amount. If people are worried about being scrutinised, they should just clarify their skill level before they make their post. And if anyone has a problem with someone elses turn, then they can GTFO and play by themselves.
Now with that wall of text out the way.
It looks as though no-one wants to build wonders anymore. As a result the split isnt really going to work. Therefore I feel we should just continue with the game. When it finishes we can start another and then worry about large rosters and multiple games etc. Any objections?
Also, just to clarify, I have no problems with a noble game being played as well. I was planning on making a thread myself, but i've been a little busy recently so im glad So no fek went ahead and did it. I do feel however that we shouldn't be segregating people based on their skill and that a game with differing skill levels between players is much more interesting than a game with all pros or all noobs. [/my 2 cents]
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On June 05 2010 14:01 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 13:04 Spenguin wrote:
Isn't it a highlight of this sort of event on TL where different people with different goals and idea for the game come together and play, why divide it into games where people don't have to adapt to other players decisions? One of the things about succession games is that lower-skilled players end up just doing what they're told because they don't want to mess it up for everyone else. Maybe it would be fun to have a Prince game where everyone from chieftain to immortal is welcomed and encouraged to do whatever the heck they want instead of following the collective game plan. Like last game, what if instead of space race someone just decided they wanted to invade india/japan instead and go for domination? Then again, maybe that would destroy the spirit of a succession game and take most of the fun out of it.
Well, presumably you're playing on a difficulty that everyone can win at, in which case people are comfortable playing their own game. If they're not comfortable with that difficulty, usually they're going to the help forums for advice. People who are bumping up the difficulty to show off, well you can expand just as well at lower difficulties.
I think major decisions like culture vs domination tend to be a group decision, and skill affects the execution more than anything else. Although early on, I can see that there could be major divergences if someone wants to chase wonders, rush, or expand.
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I am a Monarch level player (I can beat prince comfortably but have trouble on monarch)
I learn a lot from the experienced players, I honestly play with my gut feeling more then a specific strategy, that being said, when it's my turn I honestly dont understand the math and extremely advanced tactics that go into the game, and I play it the way I Feel comfortable.
That being said, I think it's important to base your turn off what the previous player did, whether you agree with it or not. If he starts building a wonder then you should just go thorugh with it whether you agree or not.
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If a succession game goes well, all the players can compensate for each other's mistakes, and the end result is much better than what any player can do alone. For example, one player might forget to adjust citizens in a city, while another forgets to change civics, and another forgets to manage diplomacy. All of these mistakes are really bad if you let them pile up over a lot of turns, but if a different player comes in and fixes them 10 turns later it's no big deal. In this way, players who normally play on a low level can cooperate to play on a higher level.
Alternatively, they might end up completely disagreeing about overall strategy, and oscillate between different things all game. That's not good, but it can lead to some really funny games.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Ok well, aside from all this discussion over why a succession game is necessary... I played my turns! I actually played a few turns over the 20 turns limit by mistake sorry :<
So as I load up the save, I realize that we have the strangest priorities evaaa. If we're thinking of a Praet rush I'd prefer 1 or 2 cities max. Unfortunately we're up to 3 cities so getting to Iron Working will be a bitch... Still have to get there before the other civies get too many axemen... Plus we still have no idea where anything is... Oh boy this'll be fun!
So just a few turns in, the folly of our mass expanding without archery has appeared! Thankfully someone started researching Archery so we aren't in a terrible shape... But barbarians rage into our lands! I was freaking out when this happened:
![[image loading]](http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3070/civ4screenshot0038x.jpg)
Please win. Please win...
![[image loading]](http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3581/civ4screenshot0006o.jpg)
YES! Oh my God Archer vs Warrior. Thankfully the Warrior won O_O. Would've been terrible if he lost.
Anyway, now that the crisis is averted -
![[image loading]](http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/244/civ4screenshot0007f.jpg)
God damn it. Well... Time to get a defending! I was forced to whip out a warrior to defend against all the Barbarians, and thankfully we had a lot of forest-hills in our capital area, so the damage wasn't too bad. There are a freaking lot of Barbarians incoming though.
And a few words on just random management. I think that the first priority for any new city should be monuments, especially when we're ONE square away from a good food source (sheeps). Workers are good, but in new cities they just end up stunting growth. Better to build in the capital.
In any case, I continue to go on...
![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3905/civ4screenshot0008a.jpg)
Hm Judaism eh? I wonder who got that... ONWARDS!
![[image loading]](http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/820/civ4screenshot0011.jpg)
... That's a really strange place for a Barbarian city. It's like in PRIME territory. Oh well. Moving on I suppose! After many more turns of exploring...
![[image loading]](http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7786/civ4screenshot0012rq.jpg)
CIVILIZATION HO!!
![[image loading]](http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/2528/civ4screenshot0016y.jpg)
Oh look it's Hannibal. And he's Jewish. Ok then. He's situated pretty far from any of our cities though. At the same time, going for him would basically have us cross paths with a Barbarian city, which would give our Praetorians some good EXP... Plus another city to capture of course! Decisions decisions... Maybe there's another civvie out there?
![[image loading]](http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9262/civ4screenshot0013e.jpg)
... We're not even on the list?  Well, doesn't matter. We'll expand to victory!
![[image loading]](http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/64/civ4screenshot0017.jpg)
If we live through this... Whipped out the Archer, and we had enough overflow to build an extra Warrior for defense in case the Archer falls. Whew!
![[image loading]](http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9039/civ4screenshot0018r.jpg)
Yes they fear the Archer mwhahaha!! A combined attack probably could have destroyed the city since the Warrior wasn't out yet, but thankfully they didn't!
![[image loading]](http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9368/civ4screenshot0019g.jpg)
Hey guys.. GUESS WHO I FOUND??? Churchill yeahhhhh. And he's fairly close to our capital city... I think both civvies are good candidates for a Praet rush. My only concern with rushing Hannibal is that he might have Numidian Cavalry by the time we get there... Which would rape our Praetorians pretty hard. The safer choice then would be Churchill, and without his Redcoats in the equation, we might be able to do a Rifling rush or something against Hannibal later. At the same time though, I feel that taking those Barbarian cities near Hannibal is a priority for us.
After a bit more exploring:
![[image loading]](http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5633/civ4screenshot0020.jpg)
Huh another oddly placed Barb city. Makes me wonder if the Barbs captured some cities of some civvies 
Our civilization at the end of my 22 turns:
![[image loading]](http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1796/civ4screenshot0010j.jpg)
Oh and about the Pre-Chopped forests, in Civ 4 you can pull your worker away from chopping a forest one turn before so that when the worker next returns to chop, the forests will get chopped in just one turn. Doing it in preparation for our Praet rush so we can get as many out as possible.
We just need Iron Working damn it!!!
Save - [url blocked]
PMd catabowl!
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nice set of turns.
That pre-chopping forest thing is new to me, really cool info! Thanks
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I've got it! I'll get to it Sunday around 8:00 p.m. EST though. (business)
But it will be done! Lets get to Iron working!!!
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On June 06 2010 05:47 Eben wrote:
nice set of turns.
That pre-chopping forest thing is new to me, really cool info! Thanks
woah really thanks mystlord, gotta try that out soon!
Nice turns there, I always was wondering how to do well against barbarians. I guess you may not over expand (you said you wanted to have just 2 citys Oo); although I have to add that I sometimes load when I lose a city due to badluck or an unexpectedly horrible barbarian attack. I feel like it's lost when losing a city that such early stage (although i didn't even try playing on yet)! It's basically the only time where i sometimes need to load cause sometimes (not often but it happens) 4-5 barbarians pop and surprise me xD... maybe cause i didn't build enough defense, would that make them spawn less often? or is it just bad luck?
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Barbarians will never enter your cultural borders until there are n x 2 number of cities on the continent (n = number of civvies on that continent). So basically when all the civs have 2 cities, barbarians will start to enter your cultural borders. Generally after the first few waves, Barbarian attack will taper off.
The reason why I only wanted 2 cities in this case is because we're doing a really fast rush against an enemy civ. If we're going for a more economic opening, then our build would still be equivalent to something like a Rax CC. We're cutting it awfully close for the difficulty that we're playing on. I'd actually favor playing it much safer and grabbing Archery before Bronze Working so that I can settle my second city safely near a copper source if there's none in the immediate area. Archery is really vital early game to hold cities. I think you can get away with skipping it on Prince and below though.
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On June 06 2010 09:08 Mystlord wrote:
Barbarians will never enter your cultural borders until there are n x 2 number of cities on the continent (n = number of civvies on that continent). So basically when all the civs have 2 cities, barbarians will start to enter your cultural borders. Generally after the first few waves, Barbarian attack will taper off.
The reason why I only wanted 2 cities in this case is because we're doing a really fast rush against an enemy civ. If we're going for a more economic opening, then our build would still be equivalent to something like a Rax CC. We're cutting it awfully close for the difficulty that we're playing on. I'd actually favor playing it much safer and grabbing Archery before Bronze Working so that I can settle my second city safely near a copper source if there's none in the immediate area. Archery is really vital early game to hold cities. I think you can get away with skipping it on Prince and below though.
That's right, barbarian spawns are linked to the cities:civs on the continent. It goes animals (which will not spawn if you move your settler around and the only AI have only 1 city), barbarians, then barbarian cities. Once barbarian cities spawn, free roaming barbarians will no longer spawn.
This goes by continent, so if you had vision of the new world on a terra map, it would be barbarian free until you land, and after a few cities they'll be swarming with waves of barbs and cities.
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yeah it's ok to scrap the split, i mean, i said all along - expand and then pyramids. Other people say expand and then praetorians. No huge ideological difference.
Mystlord, I'm a little confused. Why do you want to do a 2 (3 now) city rush with praetorians on a large map? Won't any cities we take be miles away, and with no road network connecting us? Why not expand peacefully as much as possible to take advantage of our cheaper settlers, then wage an early war with an army of mainly praets?
Also yes, omg we need archery if we want to expand -_-
and why are you saving gold instead of getting research beakers?
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On June 06 2010 13:14 Keilah wrote:
yeah it's ok to scrap the split, i mean, i said all along - expand and then pyramids. Other people say expand and then praetorians. No huge ideological difference.
Mystlord, I'm a little confused. Why do you want to do a 2 (3 now) city rush with praetorians on a large map? Won't any cities we take be miles away, and with no road network connecting us? Why not expand peacefully as much as possible to take advantage of our cheaper settlers, then wage an early war with an army of mainly praets?
Also yes, omg we need archery if we want to expand -_-
and why are you saving gold instead of getting research beakers?
What sealed the deal for me in terms of going for early Praets was seeing those Barb cities to our west. Those cities are in prime location next to Hannibal, and they are also actually placed in good locations. Those cities would save us two settlers. From there, we have an easy launch point into Carthaginian territory. I realized that there's no need to be overly fearful of Numidian Cavalry, especially since Spearmen still > Numidian Cavalry. Those Barb cities will give us EXP anyway, which means better Praets for later.
And I'm saving gold to pump out Iron Working in one burst. I forgot how the game handles 1/10 of a commerce, so I'm taking the safe route and going 100% or 0%
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Uploading now... This should be fun to explain!
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Okay, so first, I had to adjust the Science so we at least got freaking Iron Working done in my turns (I took 21 I believe). Had to change up a bit on the production. We needed more archers with the Barbs around so I delayed settler for about 7 turns to get 2 archers out. (Would eventually help) Of course, this also cut into our money b/c of the support for more units.
![[image loading]](http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8076/citylocation4.jpg)
So I first started out thinking where would be the best place for a 4th city. We're going to need a place with lots of food and the ability to make lots of Hamlets for Gold and stuff once we go into war. So I picked this box right here. Flood plains all around that can be made into Hamlet's and eventually Cities and of course that nice food just above it. So I immediately began training an archer in Cumae so the timings evened out I believe.
![[image loading]](http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4552/gandhiwantsbordersandha.jpg)
So, after a few turns of chopping wood down to 1 turn, defending from a Barbarian Warrior, and scouting. Hannibal and Gandhi both offer Open borders and I accept both. Especially with my scout right next to Gandhi's cultural area. So I start the Scouting of India! Oh yeah, Sitting Bull offers peace.
![[image loading]](http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/2734/saladinclose.jpg)
What do my eyes see? Saladin and Baghdad are really close. This looks to be our first target for war. India is to the east and I think someone else too, but whatever. Saladin is to our west and LOTS OF Barbarian cities North West and one East near India. I say we hit Saladin hard early!
![[image loading]](http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4695/trush.jpg)
And then, the Pyramids get built. So, even if we decided to try and rush, we would have failed. So, no biggie in our minds. At this point, basically all of the woods near Rome are down to 1 chop left. So I start having the workers connect the cities. Just hoping Iron pops up soon! :D
![[image loading]](http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4128/chinalm.jpg)
China offers peace. I screwed up the screen shot too. We had a barbarian warrior come into our culture and before I could get the archer to the pigs. He destroyed it. I quickly got revenge and sent our worker back to repair the damage. Cost us 6 turns with 1 worker b/c I was slow to react. (Don't kill me! :D)
![[image loading]](http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2384/whereweare925.jpg)
Okay, this is important for the next guy. First, Iron working finishes and 2 Spots of Iron near our cultural borders pop up. One in the Northwest and one in the Southeast. We have a SETTLER AND ARCHER in the North (in the red box where I originally wanted the city). I would recommend back tracking to get the iron now. We're not going to get culture to get the iron in time to do real dmg. I say move to the west iron and get it asap.
ALSO!!! I just picked a random tech (you can switch it over, no turns have gone by since)
The Workers are currently getting the horses and cows for our 2nd city and I believe we are almost completely roaded for the extra commerce.
Game Download: I have PM'D NOSLIW
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4KTV4I34
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Oh, and I turned off the Icons for the "resources" for that last screen shot. Just so it made it easier to see.
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uhh I can't load the save... What might be the problem?
I have v3.19
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: O how can you create those markers? like the 'pre chopped forest' thing?
Good stuff, nice to see we get lots of iron nearby, bit of a shame it spanwed in the middle of a desert though.
nosliw : latest version? update it through the game.
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On June 07 2010 11:20 nosliw wrote:
uhh I can't load the save... What might be the problem?
I can load it so the problem is on your side, not with the save file. Check for updates
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On June 05 2010 17:52 Fen wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Wall of Text] +Well I think the biggest worry was that the players who arent as skilled felt like they would mess up the game. No-one really wants to be the person who reports in his post, "oh yeah I lost three cities this turn". And its intimidating when someone posts out the maths behind their decision or something. (Im not saying this shouldnt be done of course)
This thinking results in games being very skewed towards the better players. People will abstain from playing rather than play a turn where they feel they might let the team down. Its this thinking that needs to be abolished because all it results in is a game where only the best players on Teamliquid play.
The reason I dont think the noble game will work is because noble mode will result in a landslide victory. So people will decide they should up the difficulty next game, which results in people fearing they will mess it up and not playing etc. and it spirals back into the same situation we have now.
People need to lose that fear of losing or letting the team down. The stronger players should be holding the weaker players up, not playing a game by themselves. This game is about learning as well as fun. If the stronger players explain their choices well, the weaker players can learn an enormous amount. If people are worried about being scrutinised, they should just clarify their skill level before they make their post. And if anyone has a problem with someone elses turn, then they can GTFO and play by themselves.
Now with that wall of text out the way.
It looks as though no-one wants to build wonders anymore. As a result the split isnt really going to work. Therefore I feel we should just continue with the game. When it finishes we can start another and then worry about large rosters and multiple games etc. Any objections?
Also, just to clarify, I have no problems with a noble game being played as well. I was planning on making a thread myself, but i've been a little busy recently so im glad So no fek went ahead and did it. I do feel however that we shouldn't be segregating people based on their skill and that a game with differing skill levels between players is much more interesting than a game with all pros or all noobs. [/my 2 cents] No reason for quoting this post specifically, but I just felt like mentioning that when I made the first succession game, I was hoping for an epic boatmurdered style failure (although I realize that was impossible just about considering it was a fairly easy difficulty) and after every post I just prayed that someone would get bored and post at the end of their report "oh, and before I finished this turn, I declared war on every single Civ, good luck to the next guy!" or something like that...
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EPT
