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![[image loading]](http://www.civpbeml.org/civ4logo.jpg)
Game 1 (Won by domination victory)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=106821
Game 2 (Won by Space victory)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=118520
Game 3
Has Begun
Horray, Time for another game of civ !!!!
What is a Succession game?
For those who do not know. A succession game is one in which a group of people play a single game of civilization as a team, taking it in turns controlling the one player against computers. Players take a set number of turns and then write a report of what happened with screenshots to back it up for others that are playing/following to read.
The goal of a succession game is ultimately for fun. It allows people with different play styles and different skill levels to play together and learn from each other.
Rules
- Each player will be placed in a roster and when their turn to play comes up, they will play about 20 turns (It doesn't have to be specifically 20 turns, you can go over or under if it makes sense to end your turn on a specific event) The roster will be updated as people join/leave.
- After a turn has been completed, a player will write a report including screenshots and the save file. (This is where the fun of the game is, so it is important to put some effort in writing a good report)
- After your turn, you will PM the next person on the list, informing them that it is their turn to play (this prevents anyone missing the bump of the thread. Please make sure you remember to do this)
- A player then has 48 Hours to respond in the thread with a "Got it" notice, or with a completed turn. Should this not happen, play will continue onto the next person
- If a player posts a "Got it" notice in the thread, they have another 48 Hours to complete their turn. (Thus the longest time without any new turns is set at 4 days. The "Got it" notice ensures that everyone isn’t waiting 4 days for a no-show)
- If a player feels they will be unable to take their turn within the 4 days, they should post a "Pass" notice in the thread so no-one is kept waiting for them. If you pass, it is your responsibility to inform the next person on the list via PM
- At any time if a player wishes to join or leave the roster, they should PM the person running the game (In this case me
 ) (You can join in any time during the game) New players will be placed at the bottom of the list.
- If a player misses their turn without passing, they will be removed from the roster(they can still rejoin, but must PM about it)
- The game will be run on the latest version of Civ 4 with the BTS expansion pack
What game settings are we playing on?
Please vote for what settings you want to see played below. Please read the thread for discussions on game settings before voting.
All leaders will be random and all victory conditions will be available.
Difficulty
+ Show Spoiler +The last game was played on Monarch Poll: Difficulty LevelEmperor (15) 75% Monarch (5) 25% 20 total votes Your vote: Difficulty Level (Vote): Monarch
(Vote): Emperor
Map type
+ Show Spoiler +The last game was played on Lakes. (Let me know if there is a map type you would like that is not on the list). Poll: Map typeContinents (10) 38% Inland Sea (8) 31% Archipelago (4) 15% Fractal (3) 12% Pangaea (1) 4% Lakes (0) 0% 26 total votes Your vote: Map type (Vote): Archipelago
(Vote): Continents
(Vote): Lakes
(Vote): Pangaea
(Vote): Fractal
(Vote): Inland Sea
Map size
+ Show Spoiler +The last game was played on Standard Poll: Map sizeLarge (13) 68% Standard (3) 16% Huge (3) 16% Small (0) 0% 19 total votes Your vote: Map size (Vote): Small
(Vote): Standard
(Vote): Large
(Vote): Huge
Climate
+ Show Spoiler +Last game was played on Random Poll: ClimateRandom (13) 59% Temperate (4) 18% Tropical (2) 9% Arid (2) 9% Cold (1) 5% Rocky (0) 0% 22 total votes Your vote: Climate (Vote): Temperate
(Vote): Tropical
(Vote): Arid
(Vote): Rocky
(Vote): Cold
(Vote): Random
Game speed
+ Show Spoiler +Last game was played on epic speed Poll: Game speedEpic (11) 55% Marathon (6) 30% Normal (3) 15% Quick (0) 0% 20 total votes Your vote: Game speed (Vote): Quick
(Vote): Normal
(Vote): Epic
(Vote): Marathon
Other settings that can be changed
+ Show Spoiler +Barbarians Poll: BarbariansOn (17) 74% Raging (4) 17% Off (2) 9% 23 total votes Your vote: Barbarians (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
(Vote): Raging
Tech Trading Poll: Tech TradingOn (14) 78% Off (2) 11% No Tech Brokering (2) 11% 18 total votes Your vote: Tech Trading (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
(Vote): No Tech Brokering
Vassal states Poll: Vassal statesOn (14) 78% Off (4) 22% 18 total votes Your vote: Vassal states (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
Goodie Huts and Random Events Poll: Goodie Huts and Random EventsOn (16) 76% Off (5) 24% 21 total votes Your vote: Goodie Huts and Random Events (Vote): On
(Vote): Off
I will also check random seed on each game so no-body can cheat.
Let's have some fun
If you wish to play, please sign up in the thread, it will also help if you post your current skill level in civ (what difficulty you play on). However with our recent success, we will not be playing anything easier than monarch.
Everyone is welcome to play, regardless of skill level, so if you're a noob, don't worry just sign up and do your best. There will be plenty of players who are way above the skill level of the game we play at so it will all even out. In the end, the game is a great learning experience for all.
Final note on etiquette
This really goes without saying, but don't be an asshat. If you disagree with a decision, point it out in a constructive manner.
Also, when writing your reports, please justify your decisions (especially big ones). It will help everyone understand what you were thinking and help those trying to learn.
Remember that the fun of this game comes from the reports. So if you sign up, please be prepared to put the effort in for writing a report.
We are here to have fun, so winning or losing doesn't matter. There's still plenty of fun to have with a losing game.
The Roster (Signups Closed)
RisingTide
Energizer
mcneebs
ShloobeR
miseiler
h3r1n6
duckett
Mystlord
catabowl
nosliw
Keilah
Dobrev
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looking forward to this 
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Woop, enjoyed watching the first two, so I'm gonna sign up for the third. I'm an Emperor player, pretty comfortable with all leaders.
I want to throw a vote for an Inland Sea map because I find there's less starting position variance and the maps are generally nicer.
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Ive added Inland sea to the map type poll. Whoever that 1 person was who voted will have to vote again in that
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im soooooo in!
Difficulty - Emperor (we need some kinda challenge, eh? ^^, normally immortal player)
Map - Fractal
Climate - Temperate
Map size - Large
Game speed - Marathon ( this speed GREATLY favors war without putting you behind technologically)
Barbarians - On (sigh)
Tech and vassal states - On (TOTALLY!!!)
Goodie Huts - Off
Random Events - Off
As I said once before, If you would like to have the last two on, then as my friend would say, give yourself 400 gold, 2 warriors, and put in 3 barbarian archers in your capital once you create it.
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Count me in! Been looking for an excuse to dust off BTS!
To energizer, the AI gets goody huts and RE's too, but i don't really care if they're on or off
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Marathon scales differently than all the other difficulties. Basically, relative to tech/buildings/growth/everything else, you build units twice as fast. It tends to be war heavy, and the game is very long, sometimes even tedious.
And if you could do a favor, if you don't lock modified assets I can shadow it (otherwise vertex shadingless computer can only show black tiles). Although it can't handle a large map anyway.
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On May 29 2010 15:59 knavery wrote:looking forward to this
You and me both! This is just as good as a movie in my book. Just sheer entertainment!
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Marshall Islands104 Posts
I have Civ 4 for Mac with the BTS expansion. I am running mac patch 3.19 and I am wondering if anyone knows if this version (it is the latest for mac, I believe) will work with the windows version everyone else is using here?
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On May 29 2010 18:38 Jayde wrote:
I have Civ 4 for Mac with the BTS expansion. I am running mac patch 3.19 and I am wondering if anyone knows if this version (it is the latest for mac, I believe) will work with the windows version everyone else is using here?
Not sure, but if you go to the thread before this one, there are save games you can download and have a go to see if they work.
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On May 29 2010 18:38 Jayde wrote:
I have Civ 4 for Mac with the BTS expansion. I am running mac patch 3.19 and I am wondering if anyone knows if this version (it is the latest for mac, I believe) will work with the windows version everyone else is using here?
I'm pretty sure it will be compatible, because the .CivBeyondSwordSave should identical across platforms.
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Marshall Islands104 Posts
On May 29 2010 19:01 Fen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 18:38 Jayde wrote:
I have Civ 4 for Mac with the BTS expansion. I am running mac patch 3.19 and I am wondering if anyone knows if this version (it is the latest for mac, I believe) will work with the windows version everyone else is using here? Not sure, but if you go to the thread before this one, there are save games you can download and have a go to see if they work.
Ok, thanks I'll go and check if I can play any of the saves from the last succession game.
[EDIT] In case anyone is interested, it appears that the mac version of Civ BTS patched to 3.19 is NOT compatible with the current windows version. I tried to play the save files from the 2nd Civ succession game here on TL and Civ 4 would just quit on me. Anyway - this is probably for the best because you guys seem a lot better at Civ than I 
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On May 29 2010 17:29 mcneebs wrote:
Count me in! Been looking for an excuse to dust off BTS!
To energizer, the AI gets goody huts and RE's too, but i don't really care if they're on or off
I wouldn't mind Goody huts/RE so much if they wernt based on the RNG and random variables. I can't tell you how many times I got destroyed by RE because of a bloody barbarian uprising while in a war, or how I more times than not get that special little RNG that slows my research by that much more.
I'd much rather keep things straightforward and skill based rather then reliance on RE which is more times than not a major nuisance (How many times have you have a building destroyed?)
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Count me in for sure! : )
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good luck guys! playing Civ4 pretty much these days, but i don't have BTS (what is it changing anyway? ^^ guess more units/nations?)
gonna follow this game for sure! i'm right now trying prince and am failing, so i guess it's better anyway that i am not playing lol
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I'm definitely in for this one! Last game was really fun.
I'm normally a noble player, so my primary responsibility will be insuring the other civs have a chance.
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Ahh, just finished a nice tank/bomber/paratrooper/spy romp domination. Haven't done one quite like that before, but it was honestly the most fun i've had roflstomping 4 civs in a dozen turns, so lets try for that :D.
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I think I'd like to be in, I can easily hold my own on prince, but haven't tried anything harder yet. I can only war war war and crash the economy though .
If we do marathon it should be more than 20 turns per person. I like to play on fractal and everything except for size on random. Forces you to adapt to the map.
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I'm guessing you guys will run a SE if we draw an appropriate civ? Is everyone familiar with how specialist economies work?
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Hey I'm totally up for this again, put me down on the list. I was in succession game 1 but had school for game 2.
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On May 30 2010 11:25 mcneebs wrote:
I'm guessing you guys will run a SE if we draw an appropriate civ? Is everyone familiar with how specialist economies work?
I think it really depends on what the map throws us. If we get an awesome buero capital start it would be foolish not to follow through with that. On the other hand if we get 3 top tier food and stone in the BFC, i'm all for a rep-powered SE. Leader draw really is a lot less important than map draw.
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I'll be watching/reading
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these are so fun to follow! keep it up!
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I'll be watching this time around. Might join in for the next game. :D
On May 29 2010 23:01 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2010 17:29 mcneebs wrote:
Count me in! Been looking for an excuse to dust off BTS!
To energizer, the AI gets goody huts and RE's too, but i don't really care if they're on or off I wouldn't mind Goody huts/RE so much if they wernt based on the RNG and random variables. I can't tell you how many times I got destroyed by RE because of a bloody barbarian uprising while in a war, or how I more times than not get that special little RNG that slows my research by that much more. I'd much rather keep things straightforward and skill based rather then reliance on RE which is more times than not a major nuisance (How many times have you have a building destroyed?)
I was playing a game the other day on an Archipelago map and was gunning for the Colossus. Was building it with maybe 5-10 turns to go, and my Forge is destroyed. Was actually a game where I didn't get tons of gold from the villages, so I couldn't replace it immediately. I then proceeded to rage quit. 
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Here we go again!
Time for Teamliquid to take it to the next level and win in Emperor mode. I'm looking forward to seeing how we handle this.
Game settings are as follows
Map size: Large map
Map type: Inland sea
Game speed: Epic
Climate: Random
No special modifiers
![[image loading]](http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1415/openingd.jpg)
Everything looks set and ready to go!
![[image loading]](http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3310/opening3.jpg)
And the leader we roll is Julius Caeser. This guy has a great unique unit for grabbing a foothold in the early game. Julius also gets cheaper upkeep and faster settler production. So I think it would be a good idea to expand fast.
![[image loading]](http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8060/opening2.jpg)
And here is our starting location. nice little goodie hut for us to grab. Some elephants for later and some nice fertile land by the looks.
So.. what to do first? Well, that will be up to RisingTide as he is going to be starting this game off for us all. Wish him luck TL.
Save: [url blocked]
RisingTide Pm'ed
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How long does one of these succession games take to finish? I might want to join in Game 4. I've only ever won at Prince and that was a year ago, so I'm not sure if I'm good enough to hang with you guys.
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The fact that no visible special resources lie within the starting borders, and only Elephants is visible in the fat cross means there might be an advanced resource in there that is only revealed with a required technology. Is it viable to found your city on the 2nd or 3rd turn on Emperor? Getting a better lay of the land can sometimes result in a better city even 1 square off the spawn point.
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Elephants are great, floodplains and a lot of forests are incredible for start.
My suggestion: establish 4-5 cities early on while teching hard to mining and iron. After iron is discovered, quick war is in order (there's a large chance of eliminating one enemy before medieval with legionnaires, who rule until longbowmen come into play).
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On May 31 2010 02:25 Zzoram wrote:
How long does one of these succession games take to finish? I might want to join in Game 4. I've only ever won at Prince and that was a year ago, so I'm not sure if I'm good enough to hang with you guys.
First game went for quite a few months. But that was because there were huge breaks when everyone was waiting and no-one was playing. The second game went for almost 2 months, which is more indicative of how long these games should take. You can join at any time, you don't have to be playing at the start. And don't worry about skill level. Everyone is encouraged just to do their best. If you arent as good as another person, its their job to try to hold the game up, not yours to become pro.
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Emperor mode! awesome Fen I was gonna ask for a more tough game as seeing disaster satisfies my unconscious rebel side but I am not one to beg.
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GL Guys!!! Gonna follow this one for sure, wanna see what you guys do better
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Alright I'm on it. Haven't loaded up the game yet, but from the screenie the capital looks like it's going to lack production. So i'm gonna go worker with ag first, then warrior and settler spam, with either BW or AH depending what I reveal. Game should be up in a few hours.
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On May 30 2010 11:25 mcneebs wrote:
I'm guessing you guys will run a SE if we draw an appropriate civ? Is everyone familiar with how specialist economies work?
After each turn, it's REALLY helpful to the newer people (like me!) if you explain strategies you think might be beneficial going forward.
On May 31 2010 02:20 Fen wrote:
Here we go again!
Hooray! Romans, too. Early warfare is always fun.
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I would be interested in joining. I currently am playing my BTS, but really only a Monarch level player right now. I do struggle in the early game, but get me in the mid-game, I can hold my own.
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I started by moving the warrior NW onto the hut, got some nice gold and noticed that we'd have an elephant herd in the BFC.
+ Show Spoiler +
We only have one visible FP in the BFC, so there's probably some food in the fog, so I decided to settle in place.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/2569/t0theresourfood.png) And there's our food! Also, marble is nice.
Went worker first, and researched Ag -> AH. I could've gone hunting before AH because of the phants, but figured getting the pigs done asap would be best for settler spam. As it is, the worker is going to have some idle time, annoyingly, but when you get a start that neither of your starting techs help with, it's inevitable.
Scouted around with the warrior, popping two more huts, one with gold, one with a map of the west. Hit the bottom of the map with the warrior, so we're on the south, but because it's a large map, I can't tell you where we are in relation to the sea. Met Churchy but didn't see his warrior, so no hints on which direction he's coming from.
Finished when the worker popped and sent him to the corn, we need to make some decisions before we can do much more. Here's Rome:
+ Show Spoiler +
And the map as we know it:
+ Show Spoiler +
There is a LOT of space on large inland sea maps to just peacefully expand into, and we have probably one of the best set of leader traits to do that with. We also have good stone nearby, so we could go the whole wonder-spammy route, but honestly I think a mad REX to ~10 cities by 1AD would be our best bet. From there we can dictate how we want to win the game.
Next person should get some bearing on our position and start the settler spam machine.
Save:
+ Show Spoiler +
And Energizer is next up.
Edit: I only took a really short turn because I have a massive report due on Friday
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Arggg me matey! Shiver me timbers as we make way into the wild yonder in search of vast riches and women. Manly women. Let this be all known to question the historians... Why the hell does Julius Caeser talk like a pirate? Cause it be my turn and we have yet to conquer the world!
We begin with a peasant whose walked from distant lands to embrace in our god given presence, who we will soon shortly raid. (GOLD!!! GOLD!! HE HAS GOLD!!)
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/SS-010000.jpg)
He was closely followed by some strange character who sought to "enlighten" us with his newfound wisdom of buddhism.. Pah! We have no time to worship gods who cannot raise war! Instead however he went upon his own people and quickly spread his ill faith. Such weak minds, perfect for a future capitulated state to wash our streets > That is, after we 'Liberate' that holy city to the east.
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/SS-020000.jpg)
Twice now we have been interrupted, and once more we shall be! These land lubbers will soon learn to think thrice before entering our... um.... Well we dont have a palace yet, so I guess "hut" will have to do.
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/SS-030000.jpg)
The perfect candidate to start a war for us. He will be a valuable tool indeed as we look to conquer in the future.
Alright. Now that all this niddy piddy begging from these hooligans have so far ceased (Julies, being the little nemesis decided to place bobcat firecrackers all along the border to give quite a "stir" with any future travelers) We turn our attention to the state!
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/SS-040000.jpg)
Yes, YES!!! Horses will soon lead our troops to march vast distances to take what is rightfully ours! I see much gold painted with our enemy's blood. Or you know, let us slaughter pigs in the meantime for food. That works too I guess... As we now look into... HUNTING!!! Yes let us hunt those ravage beasts! So That we may-
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/SS-050000.jpg)
Truffles? .... Well ok... We'll gather those truffles to satisfy our delight, THEN WE WILL ACQUIRE THE KNOWLEDGE OF HUNTING!!!!!!
And.. Thats it. Like seriously thats how fast 20 turns goes? Shoot. I didnt even get a chance to build a second city
But anywho, the land as we know it:
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/SS-060001.jpg)
I STRONGLY recommend that whoever plays next (settler is due to pop in 5 turns) To expand westward. Not only are there horses there, but I can plainly see there are a lot of good riverside tiles that we can either cottage up or use as watermills for strong production cities (or... both!). But whatever the case, try to get that horse!!!!
Also, there is a very easily accessible stone (1E looks like a beauty of a city for production!!!), which means we have a very good shot at getting those pyramids which can give us a really large lead should we switch to representation, or better yet, police state because around that time we should be close to getting our legions.
After wheel, we have some decisions to make. We could go for BW as a military tech and for slavery (Whip those settlers!!!), Go for masonry (The earlier we start on the mids the better), or go for the oracle which we can use to slingshot ourselves to nab either Confucianism (not recommended as Ghandi holds our future holy city) or IW to get our legions out that much faster.
The save (I switched the current tech to the wheel, used BW as a placeholder):
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 31 2010 10:42 Energizer wrote:
Arggg me matey! Shiver me timbers as we make way into the wild yonder in search of vast riches and women. Manly women. Let this be all known to question the historians... Why the hell does Julius Caeser talk like a pirate? Cause it be my turn and we have yet to conquer the world!
I really, really, really hope that was a typo. :D
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On May 31 2010 10:59 RisingTide wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 10:42 Energizer wrote:
Arggg me matey! Shiver me timbers as we make way into the wild yonder in search of vast riches and women. Manly women. Let this be all known to question the historians... Why the hell does Julius Caeser talk like a pirate? Cause it be my turn and we have yet to conquer the world!
I really, really, really hope that was a typo. :D
You know? You forget just one letter then EVERYONE assumes the worst.
But what the hell lets roll with it! As Day9 would put it, "dream of large women". And im sure sully would LOVE to trade, as we both know those middle easterners love to exchange women size per size. Hell we could get 2 per 1 of ours!
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I'm at work now, and I "got it". Judging by the SSs I guess we are going to have to got west. Not going to make a dot map now, but probably do one when I get home. I'll post it in the thread before settling, so that I don't mess up the BFC for everyone else
Sorry randomKo_Orean, I play on steam. GG no CDs.
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These games are awesome, so much fun just to watch.
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Woah I just noticed this thread, and the game just started... can I get in on this?
When I play alone Monarch is too easy, and Emperor is a good challenge but I tend to either completely dominate or get squashed. Been playing Civ4 for 2-3 years but never joined one of these before.
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On May 31 2010 07:37 catabowl wrote:
I would be interested in joining. I currently am playing my BTS, but really only a Monarch level player right now. I do struggle in the early game, but get me in the mid-game, I can hold my own.
On May 31 2010 16:58 Keilah wrote:
Woah I just noticed this thread, and the game just started... can I get in on this?
When I play alone Monarch is too easy, and Emperor is a good challenge but I tend to either completely dominate or get squashed. Been playing Civ4 for 2-3 years but never joined one of these before.
You've both been added to the list.
Whats the deal with Mansa? He seems to follow us in every game.
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If we are progressing at this speed, I won't be able to play my turns in time. This week is pretty much planned out with Rock am Ring.
Also, shall we name cities after TL.net members or progamers?
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On May 31 2010 20:38 Fen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 07:37 catabowl wrote:
I would be interested in joining. I currently am playing my BTS, but really only a Monarch level player right now. I do struggle in the early game, but get me in the mid-game, I can hold my own.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2010 16:58 Keilah wrote:
Woah I just noticed this thread, and the game just started... can I get in on this?
When I play alone Monarch is too easy, and Emperor is a good challenge but I tend to either completely dominate or get squashed. Been playing Civ4 for 2-3 years but never joined one of these before. You've both been added to the list. Whats the deal with Mansa? He seems to follow us in every game.
Thanks! I hope not to disappoint. I do like watching these early game moves. I do struggle the most early. (I think I make too many units) Glad how to watch others approach this. I usually have to do an "advance" start on Emperor mode b/c it seems the Computer can expand faster than me.
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This may have been the shortest session of CIV that I've ever played I ended on turn 60 just to keep things simple for the next guy.
Finished up "camping" with the elephants, and farmed the flood plains 2S of there.
On turn 47 we find that
![[image loading]](http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2243/civ4screenshot0002um.jpg)
Gandhi has BW!
Then on turn 51, the late 2Pac wrote a song about his greatest homies, and we didn't even get a shout out
![[image loading]](http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7749/civ4screenshot0003.jpg)
Researching BW now, and building a worker in the capital and started a warrior in Antium, but feel free to change it.
On turn 53, Mansa Musa also gets BW/slavery. Here's a great pic of me sending my unescorted settler into the abyss. I was going to wait for that warrior, but I guess I'm an impatient man.
![[image loading]](http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4006/civ4screenshot0004.jpg)
3 turns later, we're greeted by a complex little man, Napoleon. Dunno what direction he came from though. We make formalities and then continue westward.
![[image loading]](http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8938/civ4screenshot0005u.jpg)
Lastly, a parting screen shot of our newly founded city and the world as we know it. We'll have to get some culture in there to grab the resources (don't hate me), but once we do we should have a pretty good natural expansion.
![[image loading]](http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/892/civ4screenshot0006m.jpg)
Save here.
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Got it!
I'll play tommorow : )
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School and computer crashes made me drop out from the 2nd game, and unfortunately I'm still in that situation. Good luck though!
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Looks good so far. I'm so used to doing advanced starts, I'm going to have to get back into starting from scratch. I just hate the waiting game... lol
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Guess no pyramids then eh?
Seeing as how we got that city to the west (looks like a strong hybrid), I would love if someone could settle our third city 1 SE of the stone as a major production city. Also, we need those monuments!! needa get our horse so we can just screw someone's day over (though depending if we have any bronze nearby, we will have to alter a bit). On the bright side we wont have to rely to much on archery.
Of course.... those pyrimads... with stone that close, and with that many trees... its like if the holy sid meir WANTS us to get it. 
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How is a city near the stone going to be strong production when there are no food tiles... even if we farm all the riverside grassland tiles we'll be able to have a 13-16 hammer city (can't see the map that clearly) at size 9... yay? I guess it's OK, but nothing to shout about. We need to scout north a bit because if those floodplains have a food tile nearby they'll make a great GP pump.
Is it a mistake that I usually try to place my first few cities much closer to home than this one was?
IMO we should try to expand a few times, build plenty of workers, then to get the pyramids we should turbo-chop the forests and whip some population to get it done in a few turns. Added bonus to pyramids is they synergize with forums to give us a good specialist economy.
Little mathcrafting:
pyramids are 750 hammers
Chopping gets us 60 hammers/chop (30 pre-stone)
Slaving gets us 45 hammers/population, unaffected by stone
We have 9 forest tiles of grassland or hills that need to be chopped regardless, and 6 more that are on plains tiles (eww).
9*60=540, leaving 210 to go.
Slave 4 pop = 180 hammers, meaning we have to manually build only 30(15*2) hammers.
Slave 3 pop = 135 hammers, meaning we have to manually build 75 (38*2) hammers.
We could wait for math and get better value from our chops, but that delays the pyramids by a ton and forces us away from better techs so it's probably not a good plan.
EZ game on the pyramids IMO. The real question is, do we want the oracle?
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Damn we're getting deep already now. Bee-lining for an oracle slingshot is always a good idea, but we should really develop a tech tree path then so we can start preparing for the first war. Pyramids are great too, but I really don't go after them unless they practically throw themselves at me. I'm going to abstain from commenting as to what I think we should do next, I wanna see what the veterans of these games think :D
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they're being thrown at us IMO. Stone, tons of forests, no useless techs along the way, we can use police state to quickly make up for the lost hammers, we can switch to representation to get an awesome economy post-war, and virtually no chance of being beaten to the wonder.
Srsly, just expand a bit, get plenty of workers (needed anyways), chop out the pyramids, get iron, go kill shit. EZ game.
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Not saying I don't agree, but I just don't want to voice any opinion this early on. Mmmm...representation....
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On June 01 2010 11:13 Keilah wrote:
How is a city near the stone going to be strong production when there are no food tiles... even if we farm all the riverside grassland tiles we'll be able to have a 13-16 hammer city (can't see the map that clearly) at size 9... yay? I guess it's OK, but nothing to shout about. We need to scout north a bit because if those floodplains have a food tile nearby they'll make a great GP pump.
Is it a mistake that I usually try to place my first few cities much closer to home than this one was?
IMO we should try to expand a few times, build plenty of workers, then to get the pyramids we should turbo-chop the forests and whip some population to get it done in a few turns. Added bonus to pyramids is they synergize with forums to give us a good specialist economy.
Little mathcrafting:
pyramids are 750 hammers
Chopping gets us 60 hammers/chop (30 pre-stone)
Slaving gets us 45 hammers/population, unaffected by stone
We have 9 forest tiles of grassland or hills that need to be chopped regardless, and 6 more that are on plains tiles (eww).
9*60=540, leaving 210 to go.
Slave 4 pop = 180 hammers, meaning we have to manually build only 30(15*2) hammers.
Slave 3 pop = 135 hammers, meaning we have to manually build 75 (38*2) hammers.
We could wait for math and get better value from our chops, but that delays the pyramids by a ton and forces us away from better techs so it's probably not a good plan.
EZ game on the pyramids IMO. The real question is, do we want the oracle?
On June 01 2010 13:52 Keilah wrote:
they're being thrown at us IMO. Stone, tons of forests, no useless techs along the way, we can use police state to quickly make up for the lost hammers, we can switch to representation to get an awesome economy post-war, and virtually no chance of being beaten to the wonder.
Srsly, just expand a bit, get plenty of workers (needed anyways), chop out the pyramids, get iron, go kill shit. EZ game.
Basically this. The fact that we can get stone hooked up so early on, AND that we have enough trees to chop AND enough citizens to whip, means the mids are VERY possible which gives us fast legions to help us expand to make up for whatever land we lost from the mids grab (which shouldnt be by much) by paying a visit to our closet neighbor (Dear god I hope its ghandi... That holy city just looks juicy)
Besides, seeing as how we are JC, we HAVE to war, meaning we will liquidate a lot of assets. To keep up with that, representation shall help quite a large amount, and if we get a fairly early caste system, we will be rolling in beakers and happiness!
alternatively.... can always hope that a industrial civi will gun for it, then take it from him as soon as we get a clear shot to the guy. But theres always the risk he will be on the other side of the map. =[ but we will have a much more stable country with our first war getting preped, and hopefully we could nab oracle for a valuable tech (early forges would help tremendously).
Either way, we have to expand hard westward as that is where the more favorable tiles seem to be located. I fret to the civi who lies beyond that black void as his days are numbered.
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So, I want to thank everyone who has participated in these few games. I've kept up with the second half of the second game, am up to date on this game, and have been catching up with the first game, and not only is there a wealth of knowledge in the threads, but reading the posts made for a person's turn is highly entertaining. On one hand I'm sad that TL is such an awesome community that there isn't a whole lot of noob bashing/back and forth raging due to stupid decisions, but for the most part I'm amazed at just how awesome and understanding you all are.
I just wanted to toss it out there that these threads have inspired me to learn the game a bit better, as well as actually put some thought into my actions before making big decisions. The posts in these threads have also given me the courage to try the Prince difficulty, despite only playing Chieftain (or Noble if I was cheating and playing two civs) in the past.
Also, not to distract you guys from the game too much, but I just wanted to gloat a bit and show what I believe to be a pretty good start (in my noobish eyes) for my first Prince level game. Posting in spoilers so I don't give those who don't want to see it any trouble.
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 01 2010 11:13 Keilah wrote:
How is a city near the stone going to be strong production when there are no food tiles... even if we farm all the riverside grassland tiles we'll be able to have a 13-16 hammer city (can't see the map that clearly) at size 9... yay? I guess it's OK, but nothing to shout about. We need to scout north a bit because if those floodplains have a food tile nearby they'll make a great GP pump.
Is it a mistake that I usually try to place my first few cities much closer to home than this one was?
IMO we should try to expand a few times, build plenty of workers, then to get the pyramids we should turbo-chop the forests and whip some population to get it done in a few turns. Added bonus to pyramids is they synergize with forums to give us a good specialist economy.
Little mathcrafting:
pyramids are 750 hammers
Chopping gets us 60 hammers/chop (30 pre-stone)
Slaving gets us 45 hammers/population, unaffected by stone
We have 9 forest tiles of grassland or hills that need to be chopped regardless, and 6 more that are on plains tiles (eww).
9*60=540, leaving 210 to go.
Slave 4 pop = 180 hammers, meaning we have to manually build only 30(15*2) hammers.
Slave 3 pop = 135 hammers, meaning we have to manually build 75 (38*2) hammers.
We could wait for math and get better value from our chops, but that delays the pyramids by a ton and forces us away from better techs so it's probably not a good plan.
EZ game on the pyramids IMO. The real question is, do we want the oracle?
Why do people always call arithmetic mathcrafting?
Whipping has a 100% penalty for wonders, which is multiplied, not added on top of everything. The formula is ... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6919506&postcount=100
C = [ H / ( 1+B) * K * W * Z ]
H – Total hammers remaining in production
S – Game speed multipler – 0.66... = quick, 1.0 = normal, 1.5 = epic, 3.0 = marathon
+ Show Spoiler +
Bonuses:
B – Sum of all production bonuses (eg. 0.5 if you have a forge and Organized Religion is applicable)
K – Kremlin Modifier – 0.5 for Kremlin, 1.0 otherwise
Penalties:
W – The wonder modifier – 2.0 for a world wonder, 1.5 for national wonder, 1.0 for everything else
Z – Zero Hammers modifier – 1.5 if this is the first turn of production
The capital has 4 3 hammer tiles, 1 plains/hill, and the wheat and city tile provide 1, so it produces 18 hammers per turn. So in 21 turns it will build the pyramids on epic speed, with each chop saving about 1 turn, which really isn't that impressive. Consider that it will take 15 turns for the monument which has yet to built in the second city to pop the borders.
If you really like wonder spamming so much, don't be surprised when the AI's get all the land.
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Ok here we go, writing this in real time as the turns progress.
I Should let you all know I'm not a particularly good player so sorry if I mess something up : )
---------------------------
![[image loading]](http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3808/98444744.jpg)
2500 BC :
Having inherited the worst civilisation in the world I think about what we need as a nation. Our 2nd city will have stone and we are surrounded by forests which deserve to be chopped. I want to boost Antium up to 2 people and then start a worker, we'll have BW by then so we'll have lots of options
So for now I'm just going to link our corn and pigs to the capital for that slight increase.
![[image loading]](http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2897/29072424.jpg)
2375 BC :
Scouting is somewhat limited because there are at least 3 barbarian units (1 archer 2 warriors) roaming around antium, and I think I need to keep these guys at least fairly close. our 2nd worker finishes at Rome and I start a settler straight away, I figure we should take advantage of our two traits nice and early.
![[image loading]](http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4052/83001560.jpg)
2100 BC :
Our next warrior finishes in Antium and now we can scout more freely (still lots of barbarians out and about), BW finishes and I choose Mysticism because a monument is going to be needed for Antium very soon.
We have Copper! Or nearish anyway, it sprung up quite close to Rome so that's a relief, I sent our initial worker near antium to farm the flood plains, we had to race against a barbarian warrior for a few turns but we got there.
I signed an open borders agreement with Mansa because he seems friendly enough with most people, we still have no real intel on anyone else except that Ghandi and Napoleon had BW long before us.
Adopted slavery because THE WHIPS. it is good to be king
Next settler pops! I'm really confused about where to go though, I'm going to sit here and have a think.
To the east of Rome there are no rivers, and no food resources
To the north of Rome there are a good amount of flood plains, but combined with peaks and deserts
Further west though, I find this, it looks far too tempting! There are loads of barbs around but it should be no problem. 3 flood plains, 2 wines, a big fat river, sheep and plenty of forests, I send the settlers to Antium to let my successor decide exactly where to go but I think the location marked makes sense, it doesn't reach the wine unfortunately, I'll let my successor decide but I start sending the settlers to that general area.
![[image loading]](http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6828/25702228.jpg)
2025 BC
![[image loading]](http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9200/27273056.jpg)
THEY ARE EVERYWHERE, STALKING US. More barbarians to the south of Rome, luckily they aren't touching our settler : )
Someone Builds the Great Wall, I'm assuming it's Churchill by the massive jump in score but who knows, one less wonder for us to consider.
2000 BC
![[image loading]](http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5567/58729383.jpg)
Upon exploration of a new Oasis near our potential new city, our scout is ambushed by a monstruous Archerbear, he is all but lost.
1975 BC
Solo'd by a bear.
Here's where I will leave off, Mysticism has just finished but I have both cities building workers because I expect a lot of chopping soon. I have started archery because I guess it's about time to beef up the defenses but we'll see!
The empire as we know it
![[image loading]](http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3541/75066313.jpg)
I am sorry Teamliquid, I could not elevate us above last place, and I got crushed by a bear.
PM Sent to miseiler
Game : Here
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I hate to pass so early, but there's no way I'll be able to play this in the next two days. PMed h3r1n6!
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Cool idea. I'd love to join in the fun. sign me up.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
In the whole Pyramid argument, I'm inclined to agree with the anti-Pyramid side. I find that building the Pyramids gets really hard once you advance to higher difficulty levels. We're basically trying to out compete the AI, who has a ton of bonuses to help them. Even if we have the best production that we can get early game, it's still really hard, and trying to get them sets back our development by a lot. Aside from that, looking at our starting position, I see pretty much no hills, and a ton of rivers and good commerce land. Given that we have limited production capabilities, I vote for a specialist economy so we have a stronger early game.
I would save the forests around the capital for both the Oracle and/or the Great Library. This is generally true on all difficulties, but I've found that once one AI gets CoL, the others won't really give up too much tech for it. If we want to fill our backlog, then that will be a good priority. Another reason for grabbing Oracle/CoL quickly is because as an Organized leader, we want our double speed Courthouses online faster, especially if we're aiming for a fast smash with Praetorians. The reasoning behind the GL is because Literature is another easy to get tech that the AI usually doesn't prioritize, so we can easily get it, and just looking at the land around the capital, we'd probably want to make that a GP farm or something anyway, and I like my Great Scientists for Academies around our land.
Edit: Oh yeah, and we need to get more scouting done. Praetorians are seriously strong, and we need to know where everyone is and what they have if we want to smash them into the dirt!
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On June 01 2010 18:01 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 11:13 Keilah wrote:
How is a city near the stone going to be strong production when there are no food tiles... even if we farm all the riverside grassland tiles we'll be able to have a 13-16 hammer city (can't see the map that clearly) at size 9... yay? I guess it's OK, but nothing to shout about. We need to scout north a bit because if those floodplains have a food tile nearby they'll make a great GP pump.
Is it a mistake that I usually try to place my first few cities much closer to home than this one was?
IMO we should try to expand a few times, build plenty of workers, then to get the pyramids we should turbo-chop the forests and whip some population to get it done in a few turns. Added bonus to pyramids is they synergize with forums to give us a good specialist economy.
Little mathcrafting:
pyramids are 750 hammers
Chopping gets us 60 hammers/chop (30 pre-stone)
Slaving gets us 45 hammers/population, unaffected by stone
We have 9 forest tiles of grassland or hills that need to be chopped regardless, and 6 more that are on plains tiles (eww).
9*60=540, leaving 210 to go.
Slave 4 pop = 180 hammers, meaning we have to manually build only 30(15*2) hammers.
Slave 3 pop = 135 hammers, meaning we have to manually build 75 (38*2) hammers.
We could wait for math and get better value from our chops, but that delays the pyramids by a ton and forces us away from better techs so it's probably not a good plan.
EZ game on the pyramids IMO. The real question is, do we want the oracle? Why do people always call arithmetic mathcrafting? Whipping has a 100% penalty for wonders, which is multiplied, not added on top of everything. The formula is ... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6919506&postcount=100C = [ H / ( 1+B) * K * W * Z ] H – Total hammers remaining in production S – Game speed multipler – 0.66... = quick, 1.0 = normal, 1.5 = epic, 3.0 = marathon + Show Spoiler +
Bonuses:
B – Sum of all production bonuses (eg. 0.5 if you have a forge and Organized Religion is applicable)
K – Kremlin Modifier – 0.5 for Kremlin, 1.0 otherwise
Penalties:
W – The wonder modifier – 2.0 for a world wonder, 1.5 for national wonder, 1.0 for everything else
Z – Zero Hammers modifier – 1.5 if this is the first turn of production
The capital has 4 3 hammer tiles, 1 plains/hill, and the wheat and city tile provide 1, so it produces 18 hammers per turn. So in 21 turns it will build the pyramids on epic speed, with each chop saving about 1 turn, which really isn't that impressive. Consider that it will take 15 turns for the monument which has yet to built in the second city to pop the borders. If you really like wonder spamming so much, don't be surprised when the AI's get all the land.
Mathcrafting sounds waaaay cooler than arithmetic, and it reminds us of the word theorycrafting, which is waaaay cooler than "thinking about the game."
Interesting note about the whipping, but it balances out to be 45 hammers/pop anyways. (45) = (45)(0.5)(2), the (0.5) and (2) coming from wonder penalty and stone bonus respectively.
And chopping is almost 2 turns saved per chop, not sure how you got 18 = 30? obv we don't just instachop every forest before starting manual construction, if that's what you were thinking.
We need to expand a lot and build workers first. Then, once we have 4-5 workers, we pre-chop the forests, then chop/build/slave the pyramids in 2-4 turns. That way we have almost no chance of wasting turns on the pyramids, we lose nothing at all if someone completes them before we start, and all we really lose is the worker turns and forests that could have been put into more settlers and praetorians and stuff.
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Are any of you guys using the BUG mod?
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Have to wuss out I thought I'd get my turns much later, Rock am Ring and having to finish a presentation = no time for playing and writing up something, so I pmed duckett.
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On June 02 2010 00:14 mcneebs wrote:
Are any of you guys using the BUG mod?
I tried to, but it wouldn't let me load bug mod with the civi game we're playing. Know anyway around that? I REAALLYYY miss my dot maps Along with of course all the other cool bonuses that come with it ^^
And seeing as how we already got mysticism, looks like we'll be going for the oracle haha. Ah well its cheaper anyways ^^
As for the second city, I'm stumped. West seems to be the safest call, but I cant help but notice those floodplains to the north. If the next person could get some scouting done up there that would be AWESOME.
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I think we should decide how many cities we want though before going to war.
Maybe we should also consider going for Statue of Zeus. I find it helpful to always have it in the mid-game so we can get the market/grocer/bank gold production up easier. Don't have to worry as much about going to war once everyone has Feudalism. (Least my experience on Monarch levels)
Also, do we want to be friendly with anyone? Religion is always a good way to be friendly with at least 1 group. Would also help to have a war buddy towards the end to consider the domination victory.
Since my turn is coming up and most likely the "Pyramids" part (go for it or the Oracle). I'll go with the majority. I'm leaning Oracle to get the Fast Forges. But I do see some huge advantages for the Pyramids. Remember, the Pyramids is +2 to great Engineer. And once we get that person, that is a FREE WONDER built on that turn. And thinking down the road, that could be a free Angkor Wat/Notre Dame
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Wow. this thread makes me want to play Civ4. I need to see if I can find my version of the game.
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On June 02 2010 04:41 catabowl wrote:
I think we should decide how many cities we want though before going to war.
Maybe we should also consider going for Statue of Zeus. I find it helpful to always have it in the mid-game so we can get the market/grocer/bank gold production up easier. Don't have to worry as much about going to war once everyone has Feudalism. (Least my experience on Monarch levels)
Also, do we want to be friendly with anyone? Religion is always a good way to be friendly with at least 1 group. Would also help to have a war buddy towards the end to consider the domination victory.
Since my turn is coming up and most likely the "Pyramids" part (go for it or the Oracle). I'll go with the majority. I'm leaning Oracle to get the Fast Forges. But I do see some huge advantages for the Pyramids. Remember, the Pyramids is +2 to great Engineer. And once we get that person, that is a FREE WONDER built on that turn. And thinking down the road, that could be a free Angkor Wat/Notre Dame
Poll: What should we go for?Screw wonders! We shall steal them using our legions! Go expand! (16) 55% Oracle for early forges (11) 38% Pyramids (2) 7% 29 total votes Your vote: What should we go for? (Vote): Oracle for early forges
(Vote): Pyramids
(Vote): Screw wonders! We shall steal them using our legions! Go expand!
Should settle it ;D
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I'd like to play, could you please add me to the list?
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Nice poll, voted Oracle but I don't think it's going to happen. Remember, it's Emperor difficulty, comps have some crazy bonuses and after reading this thread, I must say the start wasn't so great (early cities too far from each other, units lost in fights etc.).
What should be done in the beginning, was safe expands over perfect grid (ie. as close to home as possible without overlapping) and then creating the military powerhouse (god damn, legs and elephants would freaking own), to grab more land.
Each turn not spent going towards iron and making cities capable of military production, is a turn less legs are going to be awesome.
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I voted for go expand, because that's the MOST important thing and what we need to do first. Then, in 80 turns or whatever, once we've got all the best city spots, we've got tons of workers, we've got at least one food tile improved per city, and our capital is size 6-8, we take 4-5 workers and chop out the pyramids in a few turns.
Pyramids are great, but they need to be a luxury that we get if everything else is going well, not the priority.
oh and I think oracle is a mistake because it forces us to get useless techs, spend early worker turns in suboptimal ways, and because we didn't rush it really fast, there's a good chance the AI will beat us to it regardless.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
If the next person scouts out where everything is, I'm more in favor of the mass expand option. Of course, we'll just have to locate our Iron source for that to happen....
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haha i love how this game is progressing! lots of discussion and stuff... although it will probably be more than required, since this should be one hell of diffculty lol.
just won prince for my 3rd time (owned the opponents this time), gonna try monarch soon ^^ learned a lot in this thread, since BTS isn't so different (so it seems, i might go get it, still playing without addons)
i voted for expanding + war with legions, since they are really very strong early on and from my experience a early war with a good outcome is the best thing that can happen.
i dunno about religions, sometimes they own me and sometimes they are super helpful. if you have the same religions with like 3-4 others (i dunno how to force that) it rocks, else it can be very bad.
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Yeah, if we don't find iron. It may not matter what we want to do. We maybe forced to rush Knights for an early war and that's a gamble.
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I would love to join in on this too!
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On June 02 2010 08:58 Keilah wrote:
I voted for go expand, because that's the MOST important thing and what we need to do first. Then, in 80 turns or whatever, once we've got all the best city spots, we've got tons of workers, we've got at least one food tile improved per city, and our capital is size 6-8, we take 4-5 workers and chop out the pyramids in a few turns.
Pyramids are great, but they need to be a luxury that we get if everything else is going well, not the priority.
oh and I think oracle is a mistake because it forces us to get useless techs, spend early worker turns in suboptimal ways, and because we didn't rush it really fast, there's a good chance the AI will beat us to it regardless.
Actually, far from it, as to get oracle you need mysticism (already have that) Polytheism (Need that to get to literature for GRL) and priesthood (again, needed for monarchy because good god we need happiness)
So really, oracle is not that large of a stretch as some other wonders are. Besides, the cpu isnt THAT much rigged at emperor. Its when you get to immortal does it get to be a real cocksmoch.
And again, we have marble and stone, perfect for early wonder building.
and btw keilah, there is no way to catch up in the pyramid race after expanding. Its either one or the other because if we expand, the trees will go to settlers. Even if we dont chop the settlers, the cpu will already be 3/4 the way done. And worst case scenario where we dont have iron, we will always have the option to use our horses to quickly capture the nearest iron resource (Not to kill the civi, just gain the iron)
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I would love to join a game at non-Emperor difficulty level... do you think the interest would be there if there was a Noble-difficulty game running simultaneously/are there enough less-skilled people such as myself who would wish to play a Noble succession game?
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I'm pretty noob at civ4. I'm a type of person who doesn't like to lose units in wars, so I always tech to have better units than the computer.
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On June 02 2010 11:40 BrownBear wrote:
I would love to join a game at non-Emperor difficulty level... do you think the interest would be there if there was a Noble-difficulty game running simultaneously/are there enough less-skilled people such as myself who would wish to play a Noble succession game?
i'd do it brownbear
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sign me up~ those two cities are way too far apart however imo, i'd go NE of Rome with a settler and settle the floodplains + copper asap.
dunno how much you guys play on emperor, but the ai is going to race ahead in tech very shortly
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Wow, lots of discussion going on here about what to do and a lot of experienced players. Im really looking forward to seeing how this turns out.
Not to sidetrack the thread however, but there is an issue that seems to be coming up.
Since my last edit of the roster, 4 more people have asked to sign up. Now this is great, I'm really happy that everyone is having fun and wanting to play. However this puts our roster up to 14. Thats 280 game turns until each player gets another shot. Our last game was 511 turns long. Meaning we would be looking at each person getting 2 shots (remember however that some people will pass on their turns). There also seems to be interest for another game on a lower difficulty mode. Ive added some polls to this spoiler just to gauge what everyones opinions on this is.
+ Show Spoiler +I see 3 options for handling the large roster. Allowing anyone who wants to join to join. Closing the signups or splitting the roster and starting a second game. Poll: How should we handle the large roster?Split the roster and start a second game (16) 94% Close signups for the rest of this game (1) 6% The more the merrier (0) 0% 17 total votes Your vote: How should we handle the large roster? (Vote): The more the merrier
(Vote): Split the roster and start a second game
(Vote): Close signups for the rest of this game
Also, if you are interested in playing in a noble succession game of civ4, please vote in this poll. If we do play a noble game, we will have to go on good faith that noble is your appropriate skill level. Meaning if you can beat a noble computer comfortably, then you should not be playing. Smashing a computer really isnt all that fun and defeats the purpose of these games. If you can beat a noble, then you should be playing in the main game. Poll: Would you participate in a noble game?Yes (6) 86% No (1) 14% 7 total votes Your vote: Would you participate in a noble game? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On June 01 2010 23:20 Keilah wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2010 18:01 igotmyown wrote:On June 01 2010 11:13 Keilah wrote:
How is a city near the stone going to be strong production when there are no food tiles... even if we farm all the riverside grassland tiles we'll be able to have a 13-16 hammer city (can't see the map that clearly) at size 9... yay? I guess it's OK, but nothing to shout about. We need to scout north a bit because if those floodplains have a food tile nearby they'll make a great GP pump.
Is it a mistake that I usually try to place my first few cities much closer to home than this one was?
IMO we should try to expand a few times, build plenty of workers, then to get the pyramids we should turbo-chop the forests and whip some population to get it done in a few turns. Added bonus to pyramids is they synergize with forums to give us a good specialist economy.
Little mathcrafting:
pyramids are 750 hammers
Chopping gets us 60 hammers/chop (30 pre-stone)
Slaving gets us 45 hammers/population, unaffected by stone
We have 9 forest tiles of grassland or hills that need to be chopped regardless, and 6 more that are on plains tiles (eww).
9*60=540, leaving 210 to go.
Slave 4 pop = 180 hammers, meaning we have to manually build only 30(15*2) hammers.
Slave 3 pop = 135 hammers, meaning we have to manually build 75 (38*2) hammers.
We could wait for math and get better value from our chops, but that delays the pyramids by a ton and forces us away from better techs so it's probably not a good plan.
EZ game on the pyramids IMO. The real question is, do we want the oracle? Why do people always call arithmetic mathcrafting? Whipping has a 100% penalty for wonders, which is multiplied, not added on top of everything. The formula is ... http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6919506&postcount=100C = [ H / ( 1+B) * K * W * Z ] H – Total hammers remaining in production S – Game speed multipler – 0.66... = quick, 1.0 = normal, 1.5 = epic, 3.0 = marathon + Show Spoiler +
Bonuses:
B – Sum of all production bonuses (eg. 0.5 if you have a forge and Organized Religion is applicable)
K – Kremlin Modifier – 0.5 for Kremlin, 1.0 otherwise
Penalties:
W – The wonder modifier – 2.0 for a world wonder, 1.5 for national wonder, 1.0 for everything else
Z – Zero Hammers modifier – 1.5 if this is the first turn of production
The capital has 4 3 hammer tiles, 1 plains/hill, and the wheat and city tile provide 1, so it produces 18 hammers per turn. So in 21 turns it will build the pyramids on epic speed, with each chop saving about 1 turn, which really isn't that impressive. Consider that it will take 15 turns for the monument which has yet to built in the second city to pop the borders. If you really like wonder spamming so much, don't be surprised when the AI's get all the land. Mathcrafting sounds waaaay cooler than arithmetic, and it reminds us of the word theorycrafting, which is waaaay cooler than "thinking about the game." Interesting note about the whipping, but it balances out to be 45 hammers/pop anyways. (45) = (45)(0.5)(2), the (0.5) and (2) coming from wonder penalty and stone bonus respectively. And chopping is almost 2 turns saved per chop, not sure how you got 18 = 30? obv we don't just instachop every forest before starting manual construction, if that's what you were thinking. We need to expand a lot and build workers first. Then, once we have 4-5 workers, we pre-chop the forests, then chop/build/slave the pyramids in 2-4 turns. That way we have almost no chance of wasting turns on the pyramids, we lose nothing at all if someone completes them before we start, and all we really lose is the worker turns and forests that could have been put into more settlers and praetorians and stuff.
Saying the 50% penalty balances out with the stone bonus is a highly misleading argument, since every other source of hammers will provide double hammers. You could just say pyramids with stone cost 375, and whipping provides 22.5 hammers per pop. In any case, you're going to have to whip 8 population (size 16 city) to match your original estimate.
About wasting turns: production is production. If you chop 1 forest for pyramids and spend 1 turn on a praetorian (18 hammers), you're in the same position you would be if you spent 1 turn on pyramids (18 hammers) and chopped 1 forest into a praetorian. Furthermore, if you 2 pop whipped a barracks/praetorian, you'll get 90 hammers, which is worth 5 turns of production (18 x 5). If you 2 pop whip to finish off a pyramids, you'll get 90 hammers, but it will only be worth 2.5 turns of production (18 x 2 x 2.5 ).
Also chopping has an opportunity cost during which you could be improving special resources. It will take 5 worker turns per chop, and with 5 workers it will 10 turns to perform 9 chops, so it's going to take you at least 6 turns to get all your chops into your pyramids.
Of course, people can play however they like, and there is some advantage to this mass chopping strategy if they highly doubt they can border pop the stone (15 turns after monument), quarry (9 worker turns) and road it in time on emperor difficulty. I just want to point out it's really not that efficient or particularly effective. It's epic speed and the AI also builds 1.5 x slower, so your timing windows for wonders are also 1.5x longer.
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So... are we starting over now with a split of teams? Or are we going to continue with what we have and just add people to be split over?
Just wondering.
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Well the split seems to be the more preferred option here.
Here is the current roster
RisingTide
Energizer
mcneebs
ShloobeR
miseiler
h3r1n6
duckett
Mystlord
catabowl
Keilah
Dobrev
Soda
nosliw
j4s
We are at duckett's turn at the moment, so we can simply split from Mystlord down to j4s and start a new game. Its up to you guys if you want to start a completely new game, or start from the same game and compete to see which team can get a higher score or something. If anyone is opposed to this style of split, or wishes to stay in this game (or be included in the split), please speak up.
Also 5 people have expressed interest in a noble game so I will set one of those games up as well.
One final note
Duckett you have only about 15 hours left to post a "got it" notice before play will be passed on.
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Well, I would prefer to stay on this team with the Emperor level. I've been wanting to get to play on Emperor for so long, but I just can't get there yet. I have noticed that I tend to get a barracks earlier than what's going on (1 city produces nothing but archers for other cities). So maybe that's why I get a tad behind early. I'm going to try practicing that. I also normally don't play with barbarians on... they never seem to harass teh computer.
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Is it too late to get in on the next game?
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Two teams running on the same map sounds pretty fun actually
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On June 03 2010 10:33 ShloobeR wrote:
Two teams running on the same map sounds pretty fun actually
that does sound cool.
It'd be interesting to compare how the two games ended up
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yeah, start a separate thread for those that want to pursue the pyramids or Oracle
reminds me of that old TV show Sliders
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2 threads, same game. Awesome =]
I'm sticking with expand into pyramids. There are more forests than just the ones that NEED to be chopped, so if we plan to chop them all we can use the first bunch for settlers and workers, and use the rest for the pyramids.
My original estimate was correct, because I said that each pop gives 45 hammers of a 750 hammer wonder, which is the same as each pop giving 22.5 of a 375.
Pyramids vs Praetorians - assuming we use 3 pop of whip in making the pyramids and then immediately change into police state (incorrectly ignoring the turn of anarchy), we will reach 30 praetorians at the same time as if we'd just started building them immediately. 30 is more than we need for an early war, so the pyramids WILL delay our first attack - but everything after 30 praetorians is pure gravy, plus we have to option to switch into representation if we don't want to war again soon.
Oh, and no noble game for me =[
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On June 02 2010 11:16 Energizer wrote:
and btw keilah, there is no way to catch up in the pyramid race after expanding. Its either one or the other because if we expand, the trees will go to settlers. Even if we dont chop the settlers, the cpu will already be 3/4 the way done. And worst case scenario where we dont have iron, we will always have the option to use our horses to quickly capture the nearest iron resource (Not to kill the civi, just gain the iron)
Just to respond to this, it's incorrect because even if the AI is 3/4 of the way done when we start working on the pyramids, we'll still get it first as long as we do a lot of quick chops because the AI will be manually building while we chop/whip. Since we begin by pre-chopping (chopping until the forest needs only 1 turn to complete the chop), we will only take 3-4 turns from putting our city on the pyramids to completion. That means only a tiny tiny chance of there being any wasted hammers turned into gold, and if the AI gets pyramids before we start those 3-4 turns... so what? We just use the chops to make praetorians.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
If we're going to do the same map/game, should we split it ideologically? Judging from the earlier poll, we have a pretty clear split down the middle for Expand with Praetorians vs Oracle/Pyramid. We could split it that way and see which strategy worked best.
Same settings for both games of course. And I was under the impression that the Noble people will go start their own thread?
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when you say 'same settings' you mean 'start from the same 4000 BC save' right?
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that would be weird because you already have a map of what's where, but i guess that's inevitable to some degree.
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On June 03 2010 15:08 Mystlord wrote:
If we're going to do the same map/game, should we split it ideologically? Judging from the earlier poll, we have a pretty clear split down the middle for Expand with Praetorians vs Oracle/Pyramid. We could split it that way and see which strategy worked best.
Same settings for both games of course. And I was under the impression that the Noble people will go start their own thread?
Yes thats correct
Sorry if I wasn't clear. We split this game based on who wants to go for the pyramids/oracle and who wants to go for praetorians and the other team just takes the current save and continues onwards with their preferred strategy. Or the splitters could start from the very start of this game with the 4000BC save if they wanted to instead (it might be hard to get the pyramids without starting again).
As for the noble game, this is completely seperate. Im still not completely convinced it will work but I've had a few people ask me about it and theres no reason why we can't try.
Can people please indicate which side of the split they would like to go on.
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what about an immortal or diety game :/ ?
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ok, throw me in with the wonder builders. Two separate threads? Is there some way to change the name or color of one of the teams so we can easily tell the difference when looking at the screenshots?
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Awesome split game :-D Hello multiverse ^_^
Make sure the games don't run out of sync with time too much so as to not give the game that is running late an unfair advantage in scouting.
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I'll stick with the expansionists!
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I'm down for being a suuuuper expansionist!
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im up for either. So long as we hit at least 2 civis in the early game im a happy camper!
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wow didnt think this would come to my turn so quick =( i WILL have tons of time after next week. pass! ill pm mystlord
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I'm in for the Noble game!
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I'm in for mass units and killing stuff
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i'm in for the noble game
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Hope you can get it done soon Myst... I'm going to be gone this weekend... I don't want my turn skipped :D
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expansionist 8)
i just really want to get my teeth into those bases!
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I just wanted to point out two things:
1) You mentioned our last game was ~500 turns, but it wasn't on Epic speed.
2) SOOO many people skip their turns that it's highly unlikely all 280 turns will pass between tries
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On June 05 2010 00:48 miseiler wrote:
I just wanted to point out two things:
1) You mentioned our last game was ~500 turns, but it wasn't on Epic speed.
2) SOOO many people skip their turns that it's highly unlikely all 280 turns will pass between tries
Last game was on epic speed actually
Yes I know a lot of people skip their turns, but I wasnt going to average out the amount of skips there are through each run of the roster and then math it out or anything :p
Heres what Ive got so far for the rosters. Could people please let me know what side you want to go on, otherwise Ill just randomly place you in one.
Seeing as Mystlord is up, this thread will become the Expansionists group
Also, it looks as if So no fek has gone and started another game for the noble people (which is looking like it will be played on prince lol) I'll give about 24 hours before I split another thread off.
Expansionists
ShloobeR
Mystlord
catabowl
nosliw
j4s
Pyramidists
Keilah
Others
RisingTide
Energizer (will go with either)
mcneebs
miseiler
h3r1n6
duckett
Dobrev
Soda
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If there's room for me I think I'd like to jump in this one too. I'd prefer to be on the expansionist team if possible.
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@^ I'm in the same boat as this guy. If I can still play I'd like to. Don't really care where you put me to be honest.
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Maketh me an expansionist.
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On June 05 2010 06:42 RisingTide wrote:
Maketh me an expansionist.
Myself as well.
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Also, it looks as if So no fek has gone and started another game for the noble people (which is looking like it will be played on prince lol) I'll give about 24 hours before I split another thread off.
Well, as has been mentioned by a lot of people, they're not too sure a Noble game would work. I'm sure that if everyone who wants a Noble game is capable of discussing in the thread we shouldn't have too much of a problem, and at the very least we'll have a challenge over a comp stomping. Of course we could still go with a Noble game if enough people sign up and that where we feel we should be playing.
I just figured someone should take the initiative and start the thread, because there was apparently quite a bit of interest in a lower level game, and it looks like everyone was just waiting around for someone to start it (probably you.) It's funny that there was so much posting in this thread, and yet I've only received one reply in the thread and one PM, from different people. I'll give it a few more days, and then go through the thread and PM the people who said they'd be interested in the game.
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it seems like a super lack of people who want to build the pyramids, perhaps just keeping to one game would be best then?
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Isn't it a highlight of this sort of event on TL where different people with different goals and idea for the game come together and play, why divide it into games where people don't have to adapt to other players decisions?
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Ok then, I'll continue playing. Didn't have time recently, but I'll have time either after PL today or tomorrow morning.
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On June 05 2010 13:04 Spenguin wrote:
Isn't it a highlight of this sort of event on TL where different people with different goals and idea for the game come together and play, why divide it into games where people don't have to adapt to other players decisions?
One of the things about succession games is that lower-skilled players end up just doing what they're told because they don't want to mess it up for everyone else. Maybe it would be fun to have a Prince game where everyone from chieftain to immortal is welcomed and encouraged to do whatever the heck they want instead of following the collective game plan. Like last game, what if instead of space race someone just decided they wanted to invade india/japan instead and go for domination? Then again, maybe that would destroy the spirit of a succession game and take most of the fun out of it.
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On June 05 2010 14:01 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 13:04 Spenguin wrote:
Isn't it a highlight of this sort of event on TL where different people with different goals and idea for the game come together and play, why divide it into games where people don't have to adapt to other players decisions? One of the things about succession games is that lower-skilled players end up just doing what they're told because they don't want to mess it up for everyone else. Maybe it would be fun to have a Prince game where everyone from chieftain to immortal is welcomed and encouraged to do whatever the heck they want instead of following the collective game plan. Like last game, what if instead of space race someone just decided they wanted to invade india/japan instead and go for domination? Then again, maybe that would destroy the spirit of a succession game and take most of the fun out of it.
And also because it would be fun to see divergent outcomes instead of majority rules. Maybe some would have liked to go domination, but hey, his path was fixed.
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Well I think the biggest worry was that the players who arent as skilled felt like they would mess up the game. No-one really wants to be the person who reports in his post, "oh yeah I lost three cities this turn". And its intimidating when someone posts out the maths behind their decision or something. (Im not saying this shouldnt be done of course)
This thinking results in games being very skewed towards the better players. People will abstain from playing rather than play a turn where they feel they might let the team down. Its this thinking that needs to be abolished because all it results in is a game where only the best players on Teamliquid play.
The reason I dont think the noble game will work is because noble mode will result in a landslide victory. So people will decide they should up the difficulty next game, which results in people fearing they will mess it up and not playing etc. and it spirals back into the same situation we have now.
People need to lose that fear of losing or letting the team down. The stronger players should be holding the weaker players up, not playing a game by themselves. This game is about learning as well as fun. If the stronger players explain their choices well, the weaker players can learn an enormous amount. If people are worried about being scrutinised, they should just clarify their skill level before they make their post. And if anyone has a problem with someone elses turn, then they can GTFO and play by themselves.
Now with that wall of text out the way.
It looks as though no-one wants to build wonders anymore. As a result the split isnt really going to work. Therefore I feel we should just continue with the game. When it finishes we can start another and then worry about large rosters and multiple games etc. Any objections?
Also, just to clarify, I have no problems with a noble game being played as well. I was planning on making a thread myself, but i've been a little busy recently so im glad So no fek went ahead and did it. I do feel however that we shouldn't be segregating people based on their skill and that a game with differing skill levels between players is much more interesting than a game with all pros or all noobs. [/my 2 cents]
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On June 05 2010 14:01 Biochemist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 13:04 Spenguin wrote:
Isn't it a highlight of this sort of event on TL where different people with different goals and idea for the game come together and play, why divide it into games where people don't have to adapt to other players decisions? One of the things about succession games is that lower-skilled players end up just doing what they're told because they don't want to mess it up for everyone else. Maybe it would be fun to have a Prince game where everyone from chieftain to immortal is welcomed and encouraged to do whatever the heck they want instead of following the collective game plan. Like last game, what if instead of space race someone just decided they wanted to invade india/japan instead and go for domination? Then again, maybe that would destroy the spirit of a succession game and take most of the fun out of it.
Well, presumably you're playing on a difficulty that everyone can win at, in which case people are comfortable playing their own game. If they're not comfortable with that difficulty, usually they're going to the help forums for advice. People who are bumping up the difficulty to show off, well you can expand just as well at lower difficulties.
I think major decisions like culture vs domination tend to be a group decision, and skill affects the execution more than anything else. Although early on, I can see that there could be major divergences if someone wants to chase wonders, rush, or expand.
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I am a Monarch level player (I can beat prince comfortably but have trouble on monarch)
I learn a lot from the experienced players, I honestly play with my gut feeling more then a specific strategy, that being said, when it's my turn I honestly dont understand the math and extremely advanced tactics that go into the game, and I play it the way I Feel comfortable.
That being said, I think it's important to base your turn off what the previous player did, whether you agree with it or not. If he starts building a wonder then you should just go thorugh with it whether you agree or not.
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If a succession game goes well, all the players can compensate for each other's mistakes, and the end result is much better than what any player can do alone. For example, one player might forget to adjust citizens in a city, while another forgets to change civics, and another forgets to manage diplomacy. All of these mistakes are really bad if you let them pile up over a lot of turns, but if a different player comes in and fixes them 10 turns later it's no big deal. In this way, players who normally play on a low level can cooperate to play on a higher level.
Alternatively, they might end up completely disagreeing about overall strategy, and oscillate between different things all game. That's not good, but it can lead to some really funny games.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Ok well, aside from all this discussion over why a succession game is necessary... I played my turns! I actually played a few turns over the 20 turns limit by mistake sorry :<
So as I load up the save, I realize that we have the strangest priorities evaaa. If we're thinking of a Praet rush I'd prefer 1 or 2 cities max. Unfortunately we're up to 3 cities so getting to Iron Working will be a bitch... Still have to get there before the other civies get too many axemen... Plus we still have no idea where anything is... Oh boy this'll be fun!
So just a few turns in, the folly of our mass expanding without archery has appeared! Thankfully someone started researching Archery so we aren't in a terrible shape... But barbarians rage into our lands! I was freaking out when this happened:
![[image loading]](http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3070/civ4screenshot0038x.jpg)
Please win. Please win...
![[image loading]](http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/3581/civ4screenshot0006o.jpg)
YES! Oh my God Archer vs Warrior. Thankfully the Warrior won O_O. Would've been terrible if he lost.
Anyway, now that the crisis is averted -
![[image loading]](http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/244/civ4screenshot0007f.jpg)
God damn it. Well... Time to get a defending! I was forced to whip out a warrior to defend against all the Barbarians, and thankfully we had a lot of forest-hills in our capital area, so the damage wasn't too bad. There are a freaking lot of Barbarians incoming though.
And a few words on just random management. I think that the first priority for any new city should be monuments, especially when we're ONE square away from a good food source (sheeps). Workers are good, but in new cities they just end up stunting growth. Better to build in the capital.
In any case, I continue to go on...
![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3905/civ4screenshot0008a.jpg)
Hm Judaism eh? I wonder who got that... ONWARDS!
![[image loading]](http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/820/civ4screenshot0011.jpg)
... That's a really strange place for a Barbarian city. It's like in PRIME territory. Oh well. Moving on I suppose! After many more turns of exploring...
![[image loading]](http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7786/civ4screenshot0012rq.jpg)
CIVILIZATION HO!!
![[image loading]](http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/2528/civ4screenshot0016y.jpg)
Oh look it's Hannibal. And he's Jewish. Ok then. He's situated pretty far from any of our cities though. At the same time, going for him would basically have us cross paths with a Barbarian city, which would give our Praetorians some good EXP... Plus another city to capture of course! Decisions decisions... Maybe there's another civvie out there?
![[image loading]](http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9262/civ4screenshot0013e.jpg)
... We're not even on the list? Well, doesn't matter. We'll expand to victory!
![[image loading]](http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/64/civ4screenshot0017.jpg)
If we live through this... Whipped out the Archer, and we had enough overflow to build an extra Warrior for defense in case the Archer falls. Whew!
![[image loading]](http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9039/civ4screenshot0018r.jpg)
Yes they fear the Archer mwhahaha!! A combined attack probably could have destroyed the city since the Warrior wasn't out yet, but thankfully they didn't!
![[image loading]](http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/9368/civ4screenshot0019g.jpg)
Hey guys.. GUESS WHO I FOUND??? Churchill yeahhhhh. And he's fairly close to our capital city... I think both civvies are good candidates for a Praet rush. My only concern with rushing Hannibal is that he might have Numidian Cavalry by the time we get there... Which would rape our Praetorians pretty hard. The safer choice then would be Churchill, and without his Redcoats in the equation, we might be able to do a Rifling rush or something against Hannibal later. At the same time though, I feel that taking those Barbarian cities near Hannibal is a priority for us.
After a bit more exploring:
![[image loading]](http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5633/civ4screenshot0020.jpg)
Huh another oddly placed Barb city. Makes me wonder if the Barbs captured some cities of some civvies
Our civilization at the end of my 22 turns:
![[image loading]](http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1796/civ4screenshot0010j.jpg)
Oh and about the Pre-Chopped forests, in Civ 4 you can pull your worker away from chopping a forest one turn before so that when the worker next returns to chop, the forests will get chopped in just one turn. Doing it in preparation for our Praet rush so we can get as many out as possible.
We just need Iron Working damn it!!!
Save - [url blocked]
PMd catabowl!
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nice set of turns.
That pre-chopping forest thing is new to me, really cool info! Thanks
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I've got it! I'll get to it Sunday around 8:00 p.m. EST though. (business)
But it will be done! Lets get to Iron working!!!
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On June 06 2010 05:47 Eben wrote:
nice set of turns.
That pre-chopping forest thing is new to me, really cool info! Thanks
woah really thanks mystlord, gotta try that out soon!
Nice turns there, I always was wondering how to do well against barbarians. I guess you may not over expand (you said you wanted to have just 2 citys Oo); although I have to add that I sometimes load when I lose a city due to badluck or an unexpectedly horrible barbarian attack. I feel like it's lost when losing a city that such early stage (although i didn't even try playing on yet)! It's basically the only time where i sometimes need to load cause sometimes (not often but it happens) 4-5 barbarians pop and surprise me xD... maybe cause i didn't build enough defense, would that make them spawn less often? or is it just bad luck?
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Barbarians will never enter your cultural borders until there are n x 2 number of cities on the continent (n = number of civvies on that continent). So basically when all the civs have 2 cities, barbarians will start to enter your cultural borders. Generally after the first few waves, Barbarian attack will taper off.
The reason why I only wanted 2 cities in this case is because we're doing a really fast rush against an enemy civ. If we're going for a more economic opening, then our build would still be equivalent to something like a Rax CC. We're cutting it awfully close for the difficulty that we're playing on. I'd actually favor playing it much safer and grabbing Archery before Bronze Working so that I can settle my second city safely near a copper source if there's none in the immediate area. Archery is really vital early game to hold cities. I think you can get away with skipping it on Prince and below though.
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On June 06 2010 09:08 Mystlord wrote:
Barbarians will never enter your cultural borders until there are n x 2 number of cities on the continent (n = number of civvies on that continent). So basically when all the civs have 2 cities, barbarians will start to enter your cultural borders. Generally after the first few waves, Barbarian attack will taper off.
The reason why I only wanted 2 cities in this case is because we're doing a really fast rush against an enemy civ. If we're going for a more economic opening, then our build would still be equivalent to something like a Rax CC. We're cutting it awfully close for the difficulty that we're playing on. I'd actually favor playing it much safer and grabbing Archery before Bronze Working so that I can settle my second city safely near a copper source if there's none in the immediate area. Archery is really vital early game to hold cities. I think you can get away with skipping it on Prince and below though.
That's right, barbarian spawns are linked to the cities:civs on the continent. It goes animals (which will not spawn if you move your settler around and the only AI have only 1 city), barbarians, then barbarian cities. Once barbarian cities spawn, free roaming barbarians will no longer spawn.
This goes by continent, so if you had vision of the new world on a terra map, it would be barbarian free until you land, and after a few cities they'll be swarming with waves of barbs and cities.
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yeah it's ok to scrap the split, i mean, i said all along - expand and then pyramids. Other people say expand and then praetorians. No huge ideological difference.
Mystlord, I'm a little confused. Why do you want to do a 2 (3 now) city rush with praetorians on a large map? Won't any cities we take be miles away, and with no road network connecting us? Why not expand peacefully as much as possible to take advantage of our cheaper settlers, then wage an early war with an army of mainly praets?
Also yes, omg we need archery if we want to expand -_-
and why are you saving gold instead of getting research beakers?
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On June 06 2010 13:14 Keilah wrote:
yeah it's ok to scrap the split, i mean, i said all along - expand and then pyramids. Other people say expand and then praetorians. No huge ideological difference.
Mystlord, I'm a little confused. Why do you want to do a 2 (3 now) city rush with praetorians on a large map? Won't any cities we take be miles away, and with no road network connecting us? Why not expand peacefully as much as possible to take advantage of our cheaper settlers, then wage an early war with an army of mainly praets?
Also yes, omg we need archery if we want to expand -_-
and why are you saving gold instead of getting research beakers?
What sealed the deal for me in terms of going for early Praets was seeing those Barb cities to our west. Those cities are in prime location next to Hannibal, and they are also actually placed in good locations. Those cities would save us two settlers. From there, we have an easy launch point into Carthaginian territory. I realized that there's no need to be overly fearful of Numidian Cavalry, especially since Spearmen still > Numidian Cavalry. Those Barb cities will give us EXP anyway, which means better Praets for later.
And I'm saving gold to pump out Iron Working in one burst. I forgot how the game handles 1/10 of a commerce, so I'm taking the safe route and going 100% or 0%
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Uploading now... This should be fun to explain!
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Okay, so first, I had to adjust the Science so we at least got freaking Iron Working done in my turns (I took 21 I believe). Had to change up a bit on the production. We needed more archers with the Barbs around so I delayed settler for about 7 turns to get 2 archers out. (Would eventually help) Of course, this also cut into our money b/c of the support for more units.
![[image loading]](http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8076/citylocation4.jpg)
So I first started out thinking where would be the best place for a 4th city. We're going to need a place with lots of food and the ability to make lots of Hamlets for Gold and stuff once we go into war. So I picked this box right here. Flood plains all around that can be made into Hamlet's and eventually Cities and of course that nice food just above it. So I immediately began training an archer in Cumae so the timings evened out I believe.
![[image loading]](http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4552/gandhiwantsbordersandha.jpg)
So, after a few turns of chopping wood down to 1 turn, defending from a Barbarian Warrior, and scouting. Hannibal and Gandhi both offer Open borders and I accept both. Especially with my scout right next to Gandhi's cultural area. So I start the Scouting of India! Oh yeah, Sitting Bull offers peace.
![[image loading]](http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/2734/saladinclose.jpg)
What do my eyes see? Saladin and Baghdad are really close. This looks to be our first target for war. India is to the east and I think someone else too, but whatever. Saladin is to our west and LOTS OF Barbarian cities North West and one East near India. I say we hit Saladin hard early!
![[image loading]](http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4695/trush.jpg)
And then, the Pyramids get built. So, even if we decided to try and rush, we would have failed. So, no biggie in our minds. At this point, basically all of the woods near Rome are down to 1 chop left. So I start having the workers connect the cities. Just hoping Iron pops up soon! :D
![[image loading]](http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/4128/chinalm.jpg)
China offers peace. I screwed up the screen shot too. We had a barbarian warrior come into our culture and before I could get the archer to the pigs. He destroyed it. I quickly got revenge and sent our worker back to repair the damage. Cost us 6 turns with 1 worker b/c I was slow to react. (Don't kill me! :D)
![[image loading]](http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2384/whereweare925.jpg)
Okay, this is important for the next guy. First, Iron working finishes and 2 Spots of Iron near our cultural borders pop up. One in the Northwest and one in the Southeast. We have a SETTLER AND ARCHER in the North (in the red box where I originally wanted the city). I would recommend back tracking to get the iron now. We're not going to get culture to get the iron in time to do real dmg. I say move to the west iron and get it asap.
ALSO!!! I just picked a random tech (you can switch it over, no turns have gone by since)
The Workers are currently getting the horses and cows for our 2nd city and I believe we are almost completely roaded for the extra commerce.
Game Download: I have PM'D NOSLIW
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4KTV4I34
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Oh, and I turned off the Icons for the "resources" for that last screen shot. Just so it made it easier to see.
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uhh I can't load the save... What might be the problem?
I have v3.19
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: O how can you create those markers? like the 'pre chopped forest' thing?
Good stuff, nice to see we get lots of iron nearby, bit of a shame it spanwed in the middle of a desert though.
nosliw : latest version? update it through the game.
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On June 07 2010 11:20 nosliw wrote:
uhh I can't load the save... What might be the problem?
I can load it so the problem is on your side, not with the save file. Check for updates
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On June 05 2010 17:52 Fen wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Wall of Text] +Well I think the biggest worry was that the players who arent as skilled felt like they would mess up the game. No-one really wants to be the person who reports in his post, "oh yeah I lost three cities this turn". And its intimidating when someone posts out the maths behind their decision or something. (Im not saying this shouldnt be done of course)
This thinking results in games being very skewed towards the better players. People will abstain from playing rather than play a turn where they feel they might let the team down. Its this thinking that needs to be abolished because all it results in is a game where only the best players on Teamliquid play.
The reason I dont think the noble game will work is because noble mode will result in a landslide victory. So people will decide they should up the difficulty next game, which results in people fearing they will mess it up and not playing etc. and it spirals back into the same situation we have now.
People need to lose that fear of losing or letting the team down. The stronger players should be holding the weaker players up, not playing a game by themselves. This game is about learning as well as fun. If the stronger players explain their choices well, the weaker players can learn an enormous amount. If people are worried about being scrutinised, they should just clarify their skill level before they make their post. And if anyone has a problem with someone elses turn, then they can GTFO and play by themselves.
Now with that wall of text out the way.
It looks as though no-one wants to build wonders anymore. As a result the split isnt really going to work. Therefore I feel we should just continue with the game. When it finishes we can start another and then worry about large rosters and multiple games etc. Any objections?
Also, just to clarify, I have no problems with a noble game being played as well. I was planning on making a thread myself, but i've been a little busy recently so im glad So no fek went ahead and did it. I do feel however that we shouldn't be segregating people based on their skill and that a game with differing skill levels between players is much more interesting than a game with all pros or all noobs. [/my 2 cents] No reason for quoting this post specifically, but I just felt like mentioning that when I made the first succession game, I was hoping for an epic boatmurdered style failure (although I realize that was impossible just about considering it was a fairly easy difficulty) and after every post I just prayed that someone would get bored and post at the end of their report "oh, and before I finished this turn, I declared war on every single Civ, good luck to the next guy!" or something like that...
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I have 3.19 Final build... It says something about "asset protected to ensure things in the mod folder doesn't change"
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Wow I have no idea what that means,
I can't check it now because I'm at work : x
Yeah Falcynn I'm hoping that this new difficulty level will create some messed up situations : D
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I can open your save under linux (wine) so it's not on your end.
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Marshall Islands104 Posts
On June 07 2010 11:34 nosliw wrote:
I have 3.19 Final build... It says something about "asset protected to ensure things in the mod folder doesn't change"
I'm somewhat curious as to what operating system you are using.
I also have 3.19 (latest) but it is for mac and I can't seem to open the saves. I could try again though...
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i really feel like the bases are waaay farther apart than i usually have them... am i alone in this or what? its very rare for me to have a city that doesn't overlap at least one square with another. i also usually end up winning emperor games if i get a decent start, but deity is straight up impossible for me
still it's very interesting to see such different play styles, i'd love if we could play a LAN simultaneous turns game some time some how; i regularly play 2v2v2v2's with my friend against multiple computers, and it's probably the most fun thing in the world
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I noticed that you guys didn't really bother with corporations at all in the first two games, are they not worth the effort in general or was it just the circumstances in those games that made them go unused?
Anyway, this is great entertainment, got me playing again even though I swore I would never play Civ IV again after Civ V was announced. I picked up some nice tips from you guys.
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I'm running windows 7 also, and my files are NTFS. I guess you can pass it down to the next person while I figure out what might be the problem.
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Well, I gues J4S is next.
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On June 08 2010 09:03 Eben wrote:
anyone PM J4s?
I did.
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On June 07 2010 11:27 Falcynn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 17:52 Fen wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Wall of Text] +Well I think the biggest worry was that the players who arent as skilled felt like they would mess up the game. No-one really wants to be the person who reports in his post, "oh yeah I lost three cities this turn". And its intimidating when someone posts out the maths behind their decision or something. (Im not saying this shouldnt be done of course)
This thinking results in games being very skewed towards the better players. People will abstain from playing rather than play a turn where they feel they might let the team down. Its this thinking that needs to be abolished because all it results in is a game where only the best players on Teamliquid play.
The reason I dont think the noble game will work is because noble mode will result in a landslide victory. So people will decide they should up the difficulty next game, which results in people fearing they will mess it up and not playing etc. and it spirals back into the same situation we have now.
People need to lose that fear of losing or letting the team down. The stronger players should be holding the weaker players up, not playing a game by themselves. This game is about learning as well as fun. If the stronger players explain their choices well, the weaker players can learn an enormous amount. If people are worried about being scrutinised, they should just clarify their skill level before they make their post. And if anyone has a problem with someone elses turn, then they can GTFO and play by themselves.
Now with that wall of text out the way.
It looks as though no-one wants to build wonders anymore. As a result the split isnt really going to work. Therefore I feel we should just continue with the game. When it finishes we can start another and then worry about large rosters and multiple games etc. Any objections?
Also, just to clarify, I have no problems with a noble game being played as well. I was planning on making a thread myself, but i've been a little busy recently so im glad So no fek went ahead and did it. I do feel however that we shouldn't be segregating people based on their skill and that a game with differing skill levels between players is much more interesting than a game with all pros or all noobs. [/my 2 cents] No reason for quoting this post specifically, but I just felt like mentioning that when I made the first succession game, I was hoping for an epic boatmurdered style failure (although I realize that was impossible just about considering it was a fairly easy difficulty) and after every post I just prayed that someone would get bored and post at the end of their report "oh, and before I finished this turn, I declared war on every single Civ, good luck to the next guy!" or something like that...
Teamliquid plays = Teamliquid wins.
May this be a lesson for you
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Manit0u, you're saying that as if you'd be a sore loser
(next time I'm gonna fire up my old trusty civ4win I shouldn't be a pussy running on ezmode, actually)
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On June 08 2010 03:53 Pangolin wrote:
I noticed that you guys didn't really bother with corporations at all in the first two games, are they not worth the effort in general or was it just the circumstances in those games that made them go unused?
Anyway, this is great entertainment, got me playing again even though I swore I would never play Civ IV again after Civ V was announced. I picked up some nice tips from you guys.
I think it depends on the game really. If you have no oil in your culture, standard Ethanol is a must. B/c without oil, you have no shot in the late game. Same thing if you lack aluminum. You need the aluminum company or else you lose in the end.
Basically, the corporations are a "fix" for not having the resources. Although, personally, I like mining inc for the extra Production. Of course, you lose like 12 gold per city. So, you better have some nice cities. But, if you have some vassals or strong allies. You send them some corporations and YOU GET gold per turn but they get the production bonus too. So, it's all up to your situation.
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got it, will play when i get home from work today
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I've never created a corporation, ever, because by the time they're available the game is already decided and it's time to just acknowledge the win/loss and start a new game.
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Alright, things went okay, tried to fix the economy and then decided we were too far behind already and went for the iron for the next person; here's my report!
Loaded up the save and started researching towards masonry, to make use of the stone + marble we conviniently have at both our capital and first city... seconldy I had to decide where to build the 4th city which my lovely predicessor supplied the settler / archer for. After a lot of deliberation i decided to plonk it here:
![[image loading]](http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1579/firstv.png)
since a) we need the copper as we wont be getting iron for at least a little while, and b) it will be an amazing economic city due to the 7 excelent cottage squares combined with low distance to capital. the one square overlap on the ivory is nice too as it alows us to swap the hammers when we need it to build libraries etc.
end the first turn after all that servaying and whats this!
![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5815/secondo.png)
our super sneaky spying warrior is attacked by archers as he wanders through a forest... bad move by the archers, our warrior wins and gets the forest defence upgrade – soon the barbarian city shall be ours! We also survive a barbarian warrior attacking Cumae, and i swap our spying to be only on Saladin, as he is our most obvious war target / friendly neighbour
on the third turn i realise just how bad our economy is... -7.14 a turn in Cumae! crazy. so, being the ruthless capitalist I am I tell our researchers to stop what they are doing with masonry and get cracking on working out exactly what pottery is and why its better for building cottages than masonry. 11 turns untill pottery, hopefully the cache will last long enough.
Ghandi gives us a phone call, asking for iron working~ after some hard bargaining we get the following from him:
sweet, time to get our workers on exploiting that stone and marble, and building cottages along the river for our people.
![[image loading]](http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3259/fourthg.png)
Oh dear, a barbarian assaulting our new city. Should be fine, he has to cross a river because attila never took the time to explain how to attack to his men...
not only that, but the damn french took our barbarian city right from under our noses, attacking from out of the fog while our warrior looked on... oh well. In other news apparantly, we're selling pets!
![[image loading]](http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3615/fifth.png)
the oracle gets built in a far away land... buddhism spreads in Antrim so it's a good time to convert, as the majority of the world is going that way. Naepolis survives more barbarians running across the rivers under fire by our archers and then this happens! I make a few chariots to stop the barbarians stomping all over our improvements as we dont yet have the copper or iron to make axemen / prets, and continue bolstering the economy.
![[image loading]](http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/7905/sixth.png)
the temple gets built we're pretty far behind in tech, and the mainenence costs of our leftmost cities seem intent on keeping it that way until courthouses. Laughing at Londons misfortune was short lived, as churchill discovers a way to keep his peasants happy though intimidation... genius.
We lose a 90% fight vs an archer in the open with a chariot, we then procceed to be informed confucionism was founded by the chinese. Crap. Our window to preat someone to death is closing, so its time to get that iron and crush saladin. Unfortunatly that means building a below optimal city, but drastic times...
![[image loading]](http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6613/seventh.png)
![[image loading]](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9135/eigth.png)
well, you get the picture.
The mine is completed and connected in our new city, and now both rome and antrim are barracksed up and ready to chop out a lot a lot of preats. With that I hand you over to our general for the campaign; RisingTide? I think. I also suggest a few axemen, just in case they have axemen too
glgl, here's the land as i leave it, sorry for going over my turns, wanted to get the mine done :<
PM'd RisingTide.
![[image loading]](http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3784/nineth.png)
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ACQBIIQO
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Did you not even read Catabowl's report? You could have had iron hooked up within the first half-dozen of your turns, and praet's invading before you handed it over. Instead, with that initial settler you build a cottage city that will be near useless until after the praetorian window has closed.
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On June 09 2010 09:17 JustAnotherKnave wrote:
Did you not even read Catabowl's report? You could have had iron hooked up within the first half-dozen of your turns, and praet's invading before you handed it over. Instead, with that initial settler you build a cottage city that will be near useless until after the praetorian window has closed.
Yeah, the cottage city should have been second seeing how we didn't even have pottery yet. If you notice, Leptis is taking that Iron I suggested sooner. We can still get about 10 praet's over the next 20 turns with all the forest chopped down to 1 turn left. I still think we can be aggressive and be fine. The problem is, we're not going to be able to afford some stuff soon. Hopefully those cottages were started early enough to grow and gives us the extra econ.
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On June 09 2010 09:17 JustAnotherKnave wrote:
Did you not even read Catabowl's report? You could have had iron hooked up within the first half-dozen of your turns, and praet's invading before you handed it over. Instead, with that initial settler you build a cottage city that will be near useless until after the praetorian window has closed.
did you see our economy? and how far the others were ahead?
spamming prets is well and good but it would have left us crippled if i had gone straight for that imo. units disbanding while we're at war is never a good thing.
besides everyone plays differently, i thought that was the fun of a succession game! sign up yourself if u want things done your way
and happy birthday
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Not to mention that 2 cities are stealing tiles from the capital now...
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On June 09 2010 10:16 Manit0u wrote:
Not to mention that 2 cities are stealing tiles from the capital now...
yep this will be a valid complaint if someone wanted the capital at level 16+ or whatever with absolutely no specialists, but i doubt anyone does
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Yeah, I don't mind the closeness to the capital. I don't even mind the city placement. Just who is next actually?
Expansionists
ShloobeR
Mystlord
catabowl
nosliw
j4s
Pyramidists
Keilah
Others
RisingTide
Energizer (will go with either)
mcneebs
miseiler
h3r1n6
duckett
Dobrev
Soda
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On June 09 2010 10:16 j4s wrote:did you see our economy? and how far the others were ahead? spamming prets is well and good but it would have left us crippled if i had gone straight for that imo. units disbanding while we're at war is never a good thing. besides everyone plays differently, i thought that was the fun of a succession game! sign up yourself if u want things done your way and happy birthday
Cottages could have been placed where the forests were chopped to praetorians. Sure they might be a few turns behind yours, but the size of the other city/capital would have been able to put them to good use.
Anyways, you're totally entitled to play differently (as you did and i'm not asking you to re-do your turns) but it seemed to me that you were jeopardizing the primary strength of the civ (medieval praet destruction) for a little money in the next era when the fast courthouses (Organized civ) could have been online before disbanding was close to a necessary option.
Am I not allowed to critique?
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On June 09 2010 10:38 catabowl wrote:
Yeah, I don't mind the closeness to the capital. I don't even mind the city placement. Just who is next actually?
The game is running via the roster at the first post. Or should be doing so if it isnt
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It seems possible that I'm next... could someone with a clue please tell me if so?
Could we get a final roster up with everyone's names and the order to play in? I joined late, and so did a few others iirc.
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I guess you're up Keilah! Good luck!
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The roster is the one that is posted on the first page of the thread, Ive been keeping it updated so it will always be correct. Seeing as the split never took place, the order hasnt changed since the start.
As j4s was last to play, it should be RisingTide's turn now. However going back over the thread, catabowl PM'ed the wrong person and skipped Keilah and Dobrev. To fix this, I've reordered the roster and moved Keilah and Dobrev so they dont miss out on this round of turns.
Please stick to the roster on the front page
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ok, then I've 'got it'.
from a quick survey of where we stand, i notice:
a)we suck in points
b)we suck in economy
c)we're ready to build a big army fast
d)saladin doesn't seem to have more than 2-3 units/town, so it should be easy to take him out
e)our units will go on strike if I build more/take cities/don't build up our economy
f)????
g)profit
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Ok, firstly, I can't play this round. I have exams starting in 2 days, so I'll probably be indisposed until ~the 23rd. Sorry, I'll PM the next guy.
Looked through the thread though and I've got a few points to make.
We can't rush someone. For the love of god, our cities are too far apart and maintenance is already killing us, even if we managed to take a bunch of cities, we wouldn't be able to support them.
Also, our two closest neighbors are Sally and Church. Both are protective. Sure Praets are all sorts of imba, but we aren't going to be getting good enough odds to make it work.
Also also, I REAAAAAALLLLLLLLYYYYY should have brought this up earlier, but this is an Emperor Large Inland Sea map with no additional civs. I'm not sure what the sea level is, but it seems to be on the Low side. You can see it on the mini-map, there is soooo much empty space, even if we take another civs sites, other civs are just going to expand into the gaps and fuck us up in the long run. In this sense it's better to have two relative lightweights on either side of us than to inadvertently let Hannibal get 45 cities.
As much as I'm sure everyone would like to see the legions stomping all over everything, it isn't going to happen on Emperor on this map.
My suggestions:
-Put cottages on every workable green tile around. We'll need every ounce of commerce to keep afloat.
-Get alpha ASAP, use it to build research to currency. Once we have that, we should be able to avert any massive financial breakdown
-During this time we spam settlers and workers to carve out by blocking, enough room for 10 or so cities which will allow us to keep up with the AI, we can decide what to do then
-We need to decide on a vague unified plan. Do we want to chase Lib? Are we going for a peaceful culture/space win? Are we going to mass cannons or go on a good 'ol fashioned cavalry romp? The sooner we figure all this out the sooner we can optimise city sites and improvements.
So, I guess Energizer is next from the roster, but what's this thing with Keilah? I'll put of the PMing until I know who to talk to.
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On June 10 2010 14:29 RisingTide wrote:
Ok, firstly, I can't play this round. I have exams starting in 2 days, so I'll probably be indisposed until ~the 23rd. Sorry, I'll PM the next guy.
Looked through the thread though and I've got a few points to make.
We can't rush someone. For the love of god, our cities are too far apart and maintenance is already killing us, even if we managed to take a bunch of cities, we wouldn't be able to support them.
Also, our two closest neighbors are Sally and Church. Both are protective. Sure Praets are all sorts of imba, but we aren't going to be getting good enough odds to make it work.
Also also, I REAAAAAALLLLLLLLYYYYY should have brought this up earlier, but this is an Emperor Large Inland Sea map with no additional civs. I'm not sure what the sea level is, but it seems to be on the Low side. You can see it on the mini-map, there is soooo much empty space, even if we take another civs sites, other civs are just going to expand into the gaps and fuck us up in the long run. In this sense it's better to have two relative lightweights on either side of us than to inadvertently let Hannibal get 45 cities.
As much as I'm sure everyone would like to see the legions stomping all over everything, it isn't going to happen on Emperor on this map.
My suggestions:
-Put cottages on every workable green tile around. We'll need every ounce of commerce to keep afloat.
-Get alpha ASAP, use it to build research to currency. Once we have that, we should be able to avert any massive financial breakdown
-During this time we spam settlers and workers to carve out by blocking, enough room for 10 or so cities which will allow us to keep up with the AI, we can decide what to do then
-We need to decide on a vague unified plan. Do we want to chase Lib? Are we going for a peaceful culture/space win? Are we going to mass cannons or go on a good 'ol fashioned cavalry romp? The sooner we figure all this out the sooner we can optimise city sites and improvements.
So, I guess Energizer is next from the roster, but what's this thing with Keilah? I'll put of the PMing until I know who to talk to.
Keilah and Dobrev missed their turns because catabowl PM'ed the wrong person. I reorganised the Roster so that Keileh and Dobrev get their turns before the roster goes for another cycle. So it's not your turn until theyve had their turns, and therefore you don't need to PM anyone. I'll put a pass note on the roster for your next turn so play skips you.
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uuggghhhhhh i am hating this game so far... it's so disorganized and crap.
Expansion was messed up because we took some crap city locations, including expanding too far away. Now I can't build any new cities until the current ones get the cash flowing.
War was messed up because of the too many cities thing, plus we have way too many useless units that are just costing us gold in supply. Do we REALLY need 2 archers in every city, plus 2 spare warriors, PLUS some chariots, just to defend against barbarians?
And our cities are messed up, like for example I see some libraries being built before granaries and I'm wondering what could possibly be the purpose of that...
Anyways, I see two possibilites - 1)do as the guy above suggested and cottage up, hope for the best.
2)cottage up a little slower, use excess population and the prechopped forests to build as many praetorians as we can, then use them to take a few cities from Saladin. The gold from looting will keep us afloat until the cottages are up, and we should be able to get alphabet from him in exchange for peace after we own him really hard.
Personally I like 2)
anything to say?
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Personally i don't think 1) will work given this start, but i'm not that good ^^.
2) could be a lifesafer but if it doesn't work it's lost, but i'd do that too. Anyway, it's not your fault if you guys lose this game, do what you think. As you said people just did what they thought and really didn't follow a strategy (which is not wrong, but i don't see this working on emperor ^^)! good luck guys anyway, really wanting to see you win this. I doubt it though! :p
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On June 10 2010 19:24 Keilah wrote:
uuggghhhhhh i am hating this game so far... it's so disorganized and crap.
Expansion was messed up because we took some crap city locations, including expanding too far away. Now I can't build any new cities until the current ones get the cash flowing.
War was messed up because of the too many cities thing, plus we have way too many useless units that are just costing us gold in supply. Do we REALLY need 2 archers in every city, plus 2 spare warriors, PLUS some chariots, just to defend against barbarians?
And our cities are messed up, like for example I see some libraries being built before granaries and I'm wondering what could possibly be the purpose of that...
Anyways, I see two possibilites - 1)do as the guy above suggested and cottage up, hope for the best.
2)cottage up a little slower, use excess population and the prechopped forests to build as many praetorians as we can, then use them to take a few cities from Saladin. The gold from looting will keep us afloat until the cottages are up, and we should be able to get alphabet from him in exchange for peace after we own him really hard.
Personally I like 2)
anything to say?
I say go for 2 and if we don't win we've learned a few things about how not to be a jack-of-all-trades and still try to praetorian rush in an emperor game.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
T_T my Praets...
Well, that means it's time to switch plans.
Cottaging up as of now is useless. We spent far too many turns acquiring Iron Working, and we're now behind because we didn't pump the praets and demolish a nearby civvie. We won't have a chance to catch up if we cottage up, military is our only answer. If I was to outline a plan, I'd have to favor using our Praets to wipe out a civ, possibly Saladin, and start setting up a Specialist economy. We have a lot of cities on river tiles, so let's farm them now and get some semblance of an economy up and running before we switch over to cottaging everything.
I don't want any cottaging to occur until Emancipation else we risk straight out losing the technological battle. Our only power at this point in the game are our Praets and city placement, which I think we have to abuse to squeak out a victory.
That's the third option from my perspective. But it's ultimately up to the next guy to see what he'll want to do.
Edit: As soon as I pressed "post", I realized that I forgot to say some things:
-Why are any of our cities unhappy? We should be whipping them down to size!
-Since we have pottery, we should be putting Granaries in all of our cities to abuse the whip. That's the other thing that we need to abuse. We'll use the excess food that we get from whipping to run specialists.
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specialist economy sounds prudent to me. I'll give it my best shot...
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btw, I fixed my problem. It turns out I modded the XML files to increase random event/quest chance, but I didn't make a backup. Now I replaced the folder with the original XML settings and I can play!
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What game factors influence the decision to pursue a specialist economy vs the traditional cottage economy? Do some civs/leadertraits lend themselves more to one than the other, or is geography like terrain/resources a big consideration?
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
On June 12 2010 05:07 Biochemist wrote:
What game factors influence the decision to pursue a specialist economy vs the traditional cottage economy? Do some civs/leadertraits lend themselves more to one than the other, or is geography like terrain/resources a big consideration?
There's been a lot of discussion over these two, and in my opinion, the Specialist economy works best pre-emancipation/bureaucracy/commerce and science national wonders. It's extremely powerful in the early stages of the game, especially on higher difficulties. It's very customizable, and if you have semi-decent land, you'll save yourself a lot of trouble early on because you aren't vulnerable to pillaging.
The reason why, I believe, the specialist economy is so powerful early game and perhaps even favored in Emperor+ games is because it lends itself to military expansion + a warmongerer early game. You don't need to babysit cottages, and your science slider will be sitting at 0% most of the time, but that's good because you'll be expanding your empire like no tomorrow, pillaging stuff, and getting GREAT PEOPLE. That last part is vital to a Specialist economy, because you can pretty much control the type of great people that you get. Rome is good for the SE because of both its traits and also its UB, which grants +25% GP points. Not to mention that our UU allows us to basically skip Machinery on a beeline for Liberalism! (We might be able to get it!)
The two major techs that we need to grab are Alphabet to trade for techs and Code of Laws for Caste System, Courthouses, and also opening up tech lines to CS and Philosophy. But for now we should focus on war, and setting up farms and specialists where we can.
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On June 12 2010 05:07 Biochemist wrote:
What game factors influence the decision to pursue a specialist economy vs the traditional cottage economy? Do some civs/leadertraits lend themselves more to one than the other, or is geography like terrain/resources a big consideration?
Yes to all.
If leader is financial vs philosophical
If your territory yields lot of food (people farming) vs lots of coasts, rivers or other rich in gold spot.
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OK, finally finished the turns. I went several over, sorry =[
The screenshots are on a different computer, but cliffs:
-I invaded Saladin
-I pillaged a lot, took two cities and gave one back
-I got alphabet from Saladin and have some semblance of an economy started
For the next guy:
-We've got scientists running in most of our cities, and one of them is not too far from a great scientist popping. IMO the only reasonable thing to do here is to use use every GS to bulb, and trade the bulbed techs to backfill. That should quickly get us up to pace in the tech race.
-I did a lot of whipping, and cities will be slowly working their way out of unhappiness. Keep an eye on our cities and grow them as unhappiness wears off.
-We are still costing ourselves a lot in unit costs. We may need to consider deleting our warriors and some archers, or maybe the distant scouts. I leave that to you.
-There is a great general taking a nap in Rome (or Antium, I forget).
-I don't even know what I clicked to research, make sure you choose something appropriate.
The save (why are these always in spoilers?)
+ Show Spoiler +
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The reign of the mighty despot Keilah (that's me) began less than spectacularly. Surveying the land (and the history chart), I saw that we... basically... sucked. Something needed to be done, and I was going to have to do it. With the help of my trusty advisors, I decided our best chance would be to use our totally imba praetorians to beat the infidel Saladin into submission, and hopefully force him to give us the crucial alphabet technology. Along with that, we need to build farms to support the scientists we need to bolster our rather sad economy.
Being desparate as I am for cash, I decided to put our chariots to good use and plunder the barbarians.
+ Show Spoiler +
After a few turns of chopping every pre-chopped forest and whipping every second turn, we've got ourselves a workable army of 9-ish praets and a few chariots, which the history graph says brings us... almost... up to par with our victim. It's ok though, the AI doesn't recognize the awesomeness of praetorians, plus it is terrrribad at tactics. Plus we're not gonna get a bigger army any time soon, so it's time!
+ Show Spoiler +
A bit behind the enemy front lines is this little plum, ripe for the picking. A weakly defended city with loads of juicy cottage tiles to plunder; just what we need to give our economy a temporary boost.
+ Show Spoiler +
It appears the slaves of Rome are unhappy with me whipping half of them to death over the last several turns, and with the army on the march, they decided to make their move =( Not exactly what we need, but you get what you get. I threw them some cash and they calmed down.
+ Show Spoiler +
We also got this interesting quest while en route to Saladin. Not sure what the reward is, and probably not going to do it, but if we happen to be considering cavalry units in the near-ish future, it'll be nice to remember this.
+ Show Spoiler +
Ummm... unfortunately I messed up and lost the screensaves for the rest, but here's what happened:
We declared on Saladin and took one of his border towns two turns later with no losses, and then he apparently convinced Hammurabi to declare on us. Not a big deal as he's so far away I don't even know where his civ is.
I split the army after that, sending a few units northwest to plunder the cottages I saw earlier, and a few praetorians southward to take out the Southern border city. Since we wouldn't be finishing Saladin in this war, I decided that instead of razing, I'd attack the city down to one defender and then surround it, picking off reinforcements one by one and waiting until I finished pillaging the North before capturing the city. I unfortunately didn't have the manpower to capture a third city, but I get around 200 gold from pillaging Saladins villages and towns.
In the end, it was a fairly successful war, resulting in one new city for us, several hundred gold from city captures and pillaging, and Saladin eventually giving us alphabet in exchange for peace. We only lost ONE CHARIOT, but just building those military units did cost us a fair amount. Oh and, I gifted Saladin back the southern city because it's total garbage and I figure the +1 relations is better than a -2 or whatever for razing it.
While off at war, I finished the granaries/libraries and built a load of farms back home, in preparation for launching a specialist economy. I admit I was a little sloppy, just building farms on whatever grassland would allow it, but if someone wants to micro that later, they're welcome to do it.
and that's about that! Please excuse the fact that the pictures aren't up yet - they're supposed to be in the spoiler slots, but for some reason I'm having trouble uploading them. I'll try again tomorrow.
PS really sorry, I ended up going well over my turn limit - I got a little caught up in it while pillaging Saladin, and by the time I realized my mistake, the war was 2-3 turns from ending. I thought it'd be better for the next person to pick up at the start of peacetime, rather than running just a couple turns of war. I won't do it again ^^
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+ Show Spoiler +none of your screenshots work for me lol XD
just empty spoilers ;(
oh shit didn't read everything ^^ sorry
anyway, seems you were pretty successful, not that much of a surprise since praets own
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Most people in this thread use imageshack for their images, so if you're having trouble with them, try that.
Also, did you PM dobrev? If so, please put a little note at the end of your post so everyone knows.
Also, its fine to go over the 20 turn limit if it makes sense guys, so don't worry bout it.
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Dobrev has been PMed
yeah i was using imageshack but the upload was frozen/super slow. Probably the fault of my internet, I live in Thailand and it's really spotty here.
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Tips for easy screenshots
Printscreen on your keyboard will automatically save screenshots to my documents/my game/beyond the sword/single/screenshots.
Download the imageshack toolbar. Now you can drag images from your screenshot folder onto a document/reply screen, and if you fiddle with the imageshack options (I believe it's forum(1) or forum(2), and make sure it resizes properly), it will automatically upload the picture and paste the embedded img link.
Google gears also used to do this, but they discontinued support.
No more manually uploading and typing long urls!
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I got the save. Will be playing later tonight after the football.
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My reign follows the peace time after the war with the Arabs. The discovery of currency and beginning the build-up of forums was the focal point in my rule.
I find the empire with 6 cities all researching Currency like mad. Borders are calm so the troops can take deserved rest. There are still some resources to develop and a barbarian city in the near north is worth exploring.
+ Show Spoiler +
After killing a wandering Mongolian scout I hurry to sign peace treaty with them. The Goths get pissed somewhere and make massive uprising somewhere. All in the name of the Heavy Metal Gods.
At this point Nabu-rimanni, the nation's great scientist is born. He gives me the option to discover mathematics. But at this point most advanced civilizations already have it researched so I opt for him establishing an academy in Rome.
+ Show Spoiler +
Capturing an enemy spy is the only notable event as half my reign time has passed. At this point I finally develop the second elephants and immediately make a sweat deal to the English. By the start of next player the 10 turns should have passed so you can try to renegotiate it for more gold. But for now the cities can start to grow again.
+ Show Spoiler +
All is calm until the 400AD when the key events of my rule all happen at once.
Currency is discovered and all cities begin building forums. The north barbarian city is raised.
+ Show Spoiler +
The historians issue update on the most advanced civilizations. As expected we are not in, but
+ Show Spoiler +
Only done reading their report I am approached by Churchill with a surprise offer.
+ Show Spoiler +
You are welcome my friend. Only then I realize he is actually colonizing on the northern border.
In the last few years I am regrouping the army. Researching towards Monarchy and Feudalism when I should have grabbed Sailing fast to expand the trade routs. In the meantime the Arabs become Vassals of the French.
At the end I leave you the empire with steady economy, growing cities, and army ready for a quick skirmish (before it becomes obsolete). Expand by force or settlers, grow up the economy or something else is now up to you.
+ Show Spoiler +
Save file:
+ Show Spoiler +
PMed Energiser. You are next buddy.
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given that point difference.. is it still possible to win at all? i quite wonder about it! :D well i shall be patient and wait.
finally some new pictures, from what i see you did keep that barbarian city, yes? seems to be in a very bad position now ^^
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Got it, will play later tonight.
As for HolydaKing : It doesn't really matter about point difference. All that matters is either 1) Do we have a good amount of cities and 2) Are we able to at least maintain a 40% research rate?
If you got those two things, one could easily win a domination victory. Of course we could always try to win via diplomacy, but I'm not to good at making friends
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Ok I lied, finished up my turn now as I have some free time
I opened my newly downloaded game as my eyes widened, How far have we expanded? How close are we to the lib race? How many vassals are under our control? Ohhhh the amount of sacrifices could- Wait.. what the hell? This cant be right...
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/Techscreen0000.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/Thebeginingaa-10000.jpg)
Oh heaven lordy...We're behind in tech, researching meditation of all things, barley maintain a 30% tech rate, and our cities comprise of a few huts. Oh my.... Ok... we need coffee, gambling pits, and a hell of a lot of duct tape.
Alright.. to whoever thought it was a good idea to have more than 1 unit per city.. SHAME ON YOU! I quickly disposed of those useless infidels who we're doing nothing but gawking at the girls. They found their place cleaning up the sewers. Doing that alone brought us to breaking even.
I then turned my attention to spamming cottages in most of the cities who reached their happiness cap. Now, this is by no means a permanent move. In fact most of those cottages are on plains but I had no choice as I needed to fix the econ asap. Besides, it was better then letting those workers build roads... In the tundra... Seriously who put them on auto? Ughhh! Angry face!
I then put neoplois into starvation mode as I put in 2 scientists while I waited for the forum to finish to raise its happiness cap by 1 (btw, whoever is next, wait two turns, then bump up the scientists, and replace farms with cottages as the happiness cap will be met there until we get monarchy)
Ok.. Good... infrastructure is going to keep us afloat, but we still needed some much needed cash so I opted to start trading away;
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/tradeaa-20000.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/trade-aa30000.jpg)
I was tempted to trade our ivory to Napoleon for 10 gold/turn, but an old wise man once told me; Dont give your enemy a gun.
While this was going on, All of a sudden I hear the war trumpets and drums. It made me go SSSSSSSSSSHHHHHYYYYYTTTTTT
until I saw this;
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/waraa-50000.jpg)
YYYYYYYEEEEESSSSSS, ok, good, let them fight each other. May they both cause much blood between them!!!
Once our econ was in order, I started looking around for cities to loot, now we wernt ready for a war with any neighbor quite yet, so I sent about 4 prats and our lvl 3 chariot medic to the upskirts to take a very valuable barb city
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/cityaa-60000.jpg)
Those spices will do just fine once we get calendar ^^
I then sent away that budda guy away to teach to some far off land. Who opt to get him in the first place? Bah, no matter. He made his usefulness as a entertainer in exchange for some jolly fellow.
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/tradeaa90000.jpg)
Hey, You member that war between the natives and hammy? Well it must not be going so well as he stopped by for a cup of sugar and nickles and dimes.
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/tribaa-70000.jpg)
I sparta kicked him and haven't heard from him since. Though should be weary as he might go after us next.
Meantime, I was preping myself to attack the arabs. The juicy mountains and flood plains are all to good to pass up! Now, so long as he doesnt-
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/FFFFFF0000.jpg)
DAMNIT!!!! They have longbowmen. Shyt. Our prats just went obsolete until we have cats. On the bright side, that isn't to far away, and our econ is doing very well now so that we can support our cities and the newly acquired arab states.
And I must say our luck never ceases to end, as Napoleaon, being the little general, heads off to war
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/waraa100000.jpg)
That should make our war with the arabs that much easier as cats and war elephants are right around the corner.
And... Thats it.
Sadly, I wasn't able to catch up to... anyone really in the tech race.
![[image loading]](http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z174/RaK-_-1992/TL%20Civi/techafter0000.jpg)
On the bright side however, we're at a perfect spot to gain a lot of land for ourselves and still have a chance to win the game. Whoever is next has to prep a war with the arabs as we would have not only the cats, but our war beasts as well! (Will have to research HBR though, not that much of a stretch as our tech is now doing well)
Save below, and next person has been PM'd
+ Show Spoiler +
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let's not forget that Saladin is a vassal of Napoleon
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On June 15 2010 13:06 Keilah wrote:
let's not forget that Saladin is a vassal of Napoleon
We'll its either that, or fight much tougher opponents, or attempt to snag a culture victory.
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Praetorians with military instructors don't do badly against longbows, but you guys are last in score, so you may not have enough production to overwhelm.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I sense some mixed goals here. Now guys... It's no use going for a specialist economy if we don't pick up prime real estate! And by picking up prime real estate I mean going to war war war! We could have bullied a lot of civs with our Praets and forced them to give us more and more stuff like techs we never acquired! Since we went through ~40 turns of peace, we missed out on the best time for our Praets to dominate.
If Hannibal still doesn't have Longbowmen (unlikely situation looking at the tech chart above), we can pressure him a bit and perhaps save our stranded city. If not... Time for a new plan.
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yeah this whole game has been horribly disjointed. I think this was what some people had in mind when starting a succession game =p
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I'm loving the bleakness of our situation : )
it will make the eventual victory sweeter.
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Damn it damn it damn it. I have to pass my turn that I've been waiting for for so long. Have 2 client jobs for a world cup promotion and getting ready for the shanghai expo, plus doing a project for Randomko_Orean. Sorry guys. Keep up the good fight.
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We're in trouble
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On June 16 2010 00:45 mcneebs wrote:
Damn it damn it damn it. I have to pass my turn that I've been waiting for for so long. Have 2 client jobs for a world cup promotion and getting ready for the shanghai expo, plus doing a project for Randomko_Orean. Sorry guys. Keep up the good fight.
Did you PM shloober telling him he's up?
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yup
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Aha
just got the PM
I'll play in an hour or so!
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Ok Here we go! Let's see what TeamLiquid can do!
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820 AD -
![[image loading]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/5313/85707386.jpg)
OH SHIT WE'RE DEAD IT'S ALL OVER
Ok actually they're pretty far away so I guess it's not the end of the world, he moved into our top city with like, two horse archers, pillaged some stuff and isnt really doing anything.
I asked churchill to help us but he didn't because he's a jerk.
Construction finishes and I start tasking some cities to build catapults.
820 AD -
![[image loading]](http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/1718/82879103.jpg)
Ahahaha...
no
By killing those two Babylonian troops we got ROBERT E. LEE, I'll park him in the capital until we actually start the war, let whoever that is figure it out.
860 AD
![[image loading]](http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/9243/47826067.jpg)
War??!? do you mean the glorious slaughter of babylonian raiders?
yes, ok
![[image loading]](http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/3664/27377864.jpg)
My city!
Ze Great wall, it does NOTHING!
My predecessor seemed pretty bent on going for Mansa Musa, the spies are telling us his cities are not too well defended, and I haven't come across any kind of 'army' yet.
So I'm moving the new catapults and praets to Mali.
870 AD
The great war is over, Religion has settled our differences
Everyone votes for peace except Saladin and Hammurabi : )
880 AD
![[image loading]](http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/3118/77223973.jpg)
Ok, well...
There goes that idea...
China has lost the war with Napoleon and capitulated.
To the east we have A vassal of our extremely powerful ally,
To the west we have a vassal of the most powerful nation, who owns two vassals.
We have a big outdated army.
This is not going well.
I think we have no choice now but to launch a war on Hannibal and hope that he doesnt bring in too many buddies. I won't actually do this but I'll get it ready.
900 AD
Took a map from Churchill for a little gold, it's annoying to lose the gold but we really need to see hammurabi's position, and the new french empire.
Churchill, Being an AI, has explored every inch of the planet, so it's a good deal.
940 AD
![[image loading]](http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1687/55787307.jpg)
Our army is looking big enough to seriously worry someone now, we should get going as soon as possible... we've totally missed our praet window, but with the catapults we should still be able to beat through a couple of hannibal's cities.
They're being defended by Macemen and longbowmen though... I'm waiting on the next round of catapults to finish then I'll end my turn.
Calender finishes, I Took it because we are starting to have big unhappiness problems and the whipping is starting to get less effective. I've set our research path for Monarchy -> feudalism now though.
970 AD
The ten turn peace period from the Apostollic palace wears off and we are immediately warred upon by...
![[image loading]](http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7513/72164889.jpg)
What?? We have no friends : (
He sneaked two soldiers down to the bottom of our territory... pushed them out to near our weakest city with the declaration of war, and then wants to get a sneaky capture in,
unfortunately for him we have a big fuckoff army.
990 AD
![[image loading]](http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2410/28163743.jpg)
FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT
1010 AD
![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8990/28809709a.jpg)
Had to sacrifice a fair amount of catapults, but we got them! WE BEAT THEM DOWN.
Here comes wave 2!
To celebrate our great victory, our bottom left Pret proceeds to lose an 84% combat in a crucial fight
1020 AD
![[image loading]](http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5462/32112331.jpg)
Here is our situation... two groups of soldiers in our lands, none of them posing a big threat, but dealing with them whilst not taking casualties is the priority...
We lost a bunch of catapults in defending, but our Praet count is still high.
Good luck to whoever goes next, I have a feeling a 3rd civ is about to declare on us.
Here's the save:
Here!
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wow ouch, this is looking very very painful :x
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Indeed. I for one don't really mind seeing no unified plan for once, but it is apparent some people are not quite at the difficulty level.
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Given the obvious lead our glorious nation holds amongst these other foolish world-dwellers, expectations are no doubt very high that I will carry the Teamliquid banner to rightful victory.
The world as I knew it in 1020 AD:
![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/6595/201006181620491920x1080.png)
There are ENEMIES IN OUR LANDS?! KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL
![[image loading]](http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7931/201006181635291920x1080.png)
I begin mining bananas and wine, which our workers had previously refused to do because they did not know what day it was.
I pester our friends Ghandi and Churchill for technologies, but it is to no avail.
The Indians forcibly removed from our lands, I am confident our powerful army will overcome my pitiful opponents, and move boldly into Hannibal's territory.
![[image loading]](http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6735/201006181657481920x1080.png)
My scouts are trying to tell me something...not now, trying to sneak up on Hannibal's Tacape city just now...what's th...elephants? RETREAT OH GOD RETREAT
![[image loading]](http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5769/201006181702561920x1080.png)
A precious 2 turns are wasted dealing with the beasts. We do not suffer casualties.
Feudalism finishes, which gives us access to a few interesting civics. The people will need to rule themselves for several turns, but I am confident in their abilities. We are Roman, after all.
![[image loading]](http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/7442/201006181721011920x1080.png)
As we seize control of the government, our praetorians move into position around Hannibal's cities, and move to protect Ghuzz, situated precariously in the middle of his territory. As we prepare to strike, Sitting Bull sends a small stack of elephants to the west country, where conveniently we have no defenses.
A treaty is evidently out of the question.
![[image loading]](http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3960/201006181733161920x1080.png)
I did the only sensible thing. I decided the situation was irrelephant and declared war on Hannibal.
Which caused Hammurabi to declare war on us.
![[image loading]](http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9806/201006181743171920x1080.png)
Which caused Ghandi to give us Philosophy. Evidently he was impressed with my logical actions, and wanted to encourage such thinking in the future.
![[image loading]](http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1695/201006181745451920x1080.png)
A turn later, Tacape is mine. Our Praetorians courageously stormed the longbowman-infested city and won without losing a single unit (!!) We are given the great general Isorouku Yamamoto.
![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4297/201006181755101920x1080.png)
Ah. They have knights. That could be...problematic.
![[image loading]](http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9350/201006181808281920x1080.png)
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
![[image loading]](http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2001/201006181811461920x1080.png)
PRAETORIANS >>>>>>> KNIGHTS
![[image loading]](http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6369/201006181815061920x1080.png)
YOU WILL NOT DIE IN VAIN
![[image loading]](http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1707/201006181819091920x1080.png)
We suffer heavy casualties, but the city holds and Hannibal is forced to retreat.
We are still at war with three civs, but stable. However, it does not seem like we will need to worry overmuch about the Indians, for their leader chooses to do something very, very stupid: convert to Buddhism.
![[image loading]](http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7880/201006181827331920x1080.png)
....and this is where my turn ends.
We have a very large standing army, however they are VERY spread out, due to constantly keeping the various civs off our backs. However, Sitting Bull is distracted now, and a concerted effort slash stack of death could let us push further into Hannibal's territory.
Megaupload refuses to work, so here's a dropbox link:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/467624/Teamliquid AD-1220.CivBeyondSwordSave
EDIT: PMed h3r1n6!
EDIT2: Fixed the last image
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Got it, will play it after I got some sleep. I took a quick look at the situation, the war against hannibal should grant some results.
There is a small stack of horse archers and a knight east of our capital from Mansa, I am afraid of the possibility of him declaring war during my turns. Mansa is not much of a war monger though (is he? I am not good at keeping track of ai personalities, except for Shaka, Monty and Genghis Khan ofc :D)
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On June 19 2010 08:47 h3r1n6 wrote:
Got it, will play it after I got some sleep. I took a quick look at the situation, the war against hannibal should grant some results.
There is a small stack of horse archers and a knight east of our capital from Mansa, I am afraid of the possibility of him declaring war during my turns. Mansa is not much of a war monger though (is he? I am not good at keeping track of ai personalities, except for Shaka, Monty and Genghis Khan ofc :D)
Aye, mansa is more of the turtling-as-long-as-I-have-my-spaceship-I-cant-lose type of folk. However, seeing as how low we are in the power ranking, it can make even the more..... sensible civies turn around and stab us. Put a couple war elephants there just to keep safe.
Now regardless of what happens with the war... What do we do afterwords? Maintain our aggression until our units run into infantry as we get the most land we can, go for culture, or just pray to w/e religion leader we're worshiping that we get a monopoly tech to put us slightly back in the lead?
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It is 1220 in the Roman empire. With the emperor miseiler stepping down from duty, Rome needed someone else stepping up. Miseilers last action was sending a letter to the next person on the holy list of emperors, which is senator hering. The formerly quiet senator stands up and makes his way through the room. He is heading right for the throne, with the letter in his hand and all eyes on him, he reaches the throne in the middle of the room and sits down confidently. His eyes are lit with fire, he wants honor and glory on the battlefield.
The first step for the young senator on the throne are asking his advisors, he spends a great deal of time talking with his military advisor. The military advisor speaks: "A decent number of praetorians and some catapults is all we really have." The senator speaks: "Against our enemies riding warriors the praetorians seem to have a disadvantage, but they will have to do for now. Gather our forces in the northwest!"
![[image loading]](http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/5876/tl3101.jpg)
20 years of gathering forces at hannibals border along with a few successfull clashes with the vile native americans pass, when suddenly a scientist storms into the room: "We have discovered, what we call 'civil service', we could run this empire differently, making the capitol the center of wealth and production". The emperor screams "That would weaken our military units training, NEVER!".
They proceed to talks about the research orientation in the future. The scientist speaks about a new way of believing. Emperor hering is thinking about it. Soldiers that believe they are marching under god fight better, that would certainly be useful. However, he comes up with a better idea, new weaponry to counter the opponents riding soldiers. Those would need a new kind of metal forming first, so he tells the scientist to do the following:
![[image loading]](http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3999/tl3102.jpg)
The year 1250, the emperor is just enjoying a song his bard wrote about him, when one of his generals storms into the room and reports the sighting of a large army under the banner of Hammurabi marching in from the northwest. Concerns spread in the senat, but the emperor seems to stay calm. He speaks up "Their soldiers are trained to attack cities. We will punish them for marshing through the desert. Position our soldiers in the forest in the south and on the hills in the east."
![[image loading]](http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/2294/tl3103.jpg)
The soldiers of Hammurabi act as expected and were crushed in the following battle, which puts a light smile on the troubled emperor.
1255, a messenger from Mansa Musa disturbs as the battle with Hammurabis forces is still going on. "Convert to christianity? GET OUT OF MY PALACE". The possibilty of a war against Mansa is troubling the emperors thoughts, he asks his friends to keep Mansa, Hammurabi or Hannibal busy with a war, but no one wants to go to war. Let alone by his allies, the increasingly stressed emperor just focusses on the current war, hoping for the best.
![[image loading]](http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6310/tl3104.jpg)
With a few units under the banner of Sitting Bull still in the north of his territory, there is a slight relief when a messenger enters the senate in order to get the opinion on a vote on stopping the war against Sitting Bull.
![[image loading]](http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/2023/tl3106.jpg)
The same messenger enters the senate again 5 years later, declaring the war over.
![[image loading]](http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7439/tl3107.jpg)
1285, diplomacy. "The strongest nation in the world, who likes us decently, wants us to stop trading with the second strongest nation, who dislikes us." his advisor said. The emperor decides, that while he should keep his allies as friends, he can't risk a war against the french. Diplomacy has never been the aging mans strong suit.
![[image loading]](http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/8842/tl3108.jpg)
After receiving a letter without a sender that reads "Ghandi has researched liberalism", whatever that means, an English scientist enters the throne room. "Churchill send me, I should teach you how to manifacture paper". The emperor gladly accepts the offer.
![[image loading]](http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/7820/tl3110.jpg)
In the old days of the emperor, Sitting Bull himself suddenly enters the throne room with a big peace pipe. What is he doing here, thinks the emperor, awaiting the native american to speak. Sitting Bull offers to open borders again. Being a Buddhist nation too, hering decides to accept the deal.
![[image loading]](http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5495/tl3111.jpg)
At the same time as Sitting Bulls offer, the clashes against Hannibal at his border are still going on, leaving the roman empire no chance to ever get an army together strong enough to really go on the offensive. Troubled by his inability to get into Hannibals land and get his goals done, the now old emperor sits down in his throne with a loud sigh. He mumbles some advice into the ear of the general standing next to him, which proved decent success against the advanced warriors of Hannibal, but the emperor seems broken.
![[image loading]](http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9117/tl3112.jpg)
1325, feeling his time has come, the emperor stands up wordless and leaves the room, not to be seen again for at least a couple of years.
![[image loading]](http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4894/tl313.jpg)
Well, I teched towards engineering, held of a few units from sitting bull, the stack from Hammurabi and crap from Hannibal in the northwest without losing too much. It was luckily the only battlefront I had to worry about, but praets vs macemen and knights is not really fun, imagine we weren't rome and had to fight with swordsmen. Got out a few war elephants to help against the knights. I lost a medic 3 praet, but we still have a medic 3 chariot and 2 great generals. We also have a few forges out now. And I suck at diplomacy (and at everything else, but diplomacy the most :D).
Save here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2361111/Teamliquid AD-1325.CivBeyondSwordSave
PM'ing next person now.
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I am shocked at our success. I probably would have restarted by now! nice!
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LOVED the write up that h3r1n6 did.
Very enjoyable to read and something that makes these games really fun to keep track of even without playing.
Appreciated it
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Yeah we're screwed. Move on to next game please XD
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Pangea-type map is a lot of hurt with this many civs. And I think that pretty soon a new threat will arise, in form of mass spies everywhere, destroying improvements, poisoning the water and stirring unrest (god, I hate spies).
You guys need to catch up in military tech, and fast!
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The next person should declare against every civ and go down in a blaze of glory
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On June 20 2010 12:34 Eben wrote:
LOVED the write up that h3r1n6 did.
Very enjoyable to read and something that makes these games really fun to keep track of even without playing.
Appreciated it
Thanks, writing took far longer than playing the turns, glad to see it's enjoyable.
And yes we're screwed.
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i lol'd so many times reading that last report
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On June 20 2010 22:04 h3r1n6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2010 12:34 Eben wrote:
LOVED the write up that h3r1n6 did.
Very enjoyable to read and something that makes these games really fun to keep track of even without playing.
Appreciated it Thanks, writing took far longer than playing the turns, glad to see it's enjoyable. And yes we're screwed.
It is appreciated
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Netherlands19135 Posts
Haha yeah I don't even play Civ and never really have and I always enjoy reading these threads .
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:O we're not dead! I mean... there's still a culture victory. Just have to tech drama and lib and we're golden.
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On June 23 2010 02:02 Energizer wrote:
:O we're not dead! I mean... there's still a culture victory. Just have to tech drama and lib and we're golden. Really? In my experience it's hard as hell getting a culture victory unless you plan on it from the start.
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i'm enjoying following these succession games and started playing a little civ 4 myself. Quick question for you guys.. have you ever tried out the improved AI MOD to make these succession games more fun / challenging? I'm not sure exaclty how the AI MOD works.. can you use it and still play on easier difficulty settings, or is there only one setting for the MOD?(in which case I'm assuming it'd be as hard, if not harder than immortal?) I'm not even sure how good the MOD is, I know they just released a fairly new one for BTS... just trying to determine how much of a difference it actually makes. Sorry to post in your succesion game thread, but I didn't want to start another Civ 4 thread. Thanks in advance for any input.
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havent been following x.x looks hard and havent played civ in a while =/ thought i would have time for civ + succession game but i havent >.>
take me off the list =(
pmed mystlord
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Oh crap... I'm next after Myst. Need to read what's been going on... lol
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Uhhhh nailed me at a bad time... I have stuff to do for the next few days, so it's probably better if catabowl just takes his turns now. PMed him.
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IMO, given how far behind we are in tech and how tiny is the chance that we'll ever have ANY monopoly tech, we ought to switch to 100% EP instead of beakers.
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Downloaded and will play today sometime later. Gotta watch the MSL selection first :D
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I have been lurking TL for years, finally setup an account a few months back, now getting brave enough to post. I just had to for this one.
I just want to thank Sen for putting this all together. Today was the first I've heard of this going on here and after reading through the first game you guys had, I was totally entertained. I mean, I was consumed reading about your Civ4 game for hours! Native Americans FTW. Great reports from the players, hilarious situations when people would pick up the game and play against their better judgments (I LOL'd at "well if the religious leaders want me to take the holy city, I just have to"), the evolution of the empire through multiple rulers....
I am horrible at Civ but easily dump 30+ hours into it every time I start a game, so I'm learning as you guys play as well. I can barely win a Prince game.
Well enough of my ramble... I'm going to catch up on game two then read up on where game three is headed.
Oh since it's my first post I also want to thank Team Liquid as a whole for always supplying me with plenty of wonderful SC and SC2 news/tournaments/forum posts/kitten videos/etc to keep the inner geek alive!!!
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Just finished my turns... Going to get all the stuff soon. Give me a few
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I start my 20 turns attack Leptis. My goal here is to take Leptis and move forward. I was full of confidence with everything looking good. Picture below!
![[image loading]](http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6568/civ4screenshot0003ed.jpg)
Right when I feel it's okay to move forward. Hammurabi shows up. Ugh!
![[image loading]](http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7397/wellcraphammurabicoming.jpg)
Right before I take the city, Hammurabi shows up and starts pillaging us. Ewwwwwwww
![[image loading]](http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/3455/hammurabiravagingus0000.jpg)
I take Leptis while losing one catapult. Victory for us but then I make an executive decision. I make peace with Hannibal. Don't worry, it only lasts 10 turns. I want to clean up the hammurabi forces before advancing more against Hannibal. Might be an unpopular decision, but I think it is best right now.
![[image loading]](http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9166/leptisisours0000.jpg)
Hammurabi takes our city of Ghuzz. This hurts my feelings A LOT. But then, a surprising turn of events happens. Apparently, Napoleon does not approve of Hammurabi picking on poor Teamliquid and decides to launch an assault with his 2 vassals. A breather finally! Napoleon can stop anymore reinforcements. Once we cleanup these forces, we can redeclare on Hannibal!!!
![[image loading]](http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1782/helpatlastbutlostacity0.jpg)
Once I get my units healed, I try to head to Cumae as fast as I can, but Hammurabi strikes first and takes our city. This is a devasting blow to our economy because if we get this city back we will have lost most of the buildings we spent valuable time building! I will get revenge for this you worthless piece of sh--
![[image loading]](http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/9890/cumaefalls0000.jpg)
The attack to retake Cumae begins! I sacrifice one Catapult to deal some damage to his forces and the next attack was a 67% LOSS! (Feels like Flash losing to Hyvaa in OSL or any of his current ace match losing streak) After that, we WON back-to-back 67% (I lol'ed at the law of averages) The rest of the battles were about winning with the right attacking team at the right moment to keep the winning % above 90 and we retake Cumae!
![[image loading]](http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/5351/onlylost1elephant0000.jpg)
Teamliquid's hidden agenda to eventually backstab Napolean starts with voting for the French to LOSE a city and it passed!
![[image loading]](http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4472/frenchloseacity0000.jpg)
I have moved the army back to retake Ghuzz. And what do I see? Saladin's army right there as well. Saladin attacks first with his catapults and devastates the army of Hammurabi. Saladin's generals look at us and say, "Have at the beasts!!!" Our generals, four now I believe, finish off Hammurabi's forces and retake the city of Ghuzz!!! We're back in business!!! hahahaha! You can't beat us Hammurabi! We are TEAMLIQUID!!!
![[image loading]](http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3048/thankyousaladin0000.jpg)
On my 20th turn, we get Guilds. This should allow some cities to build grocers for gold! Up to the next player I guess. I started researching GUNPOWDER, but no turns have passed, so you can decide where to go from there. Saladin discovers Democracy and converts to Emancipation which will HURT US BIG TIME!!! We might need to pray and hope we can get Democracy quickly before our workers revolt on us for not having emancipation. All and all, I think I did alright just surviving. We, with Saladin, took out 16 curassier, 6 catapults, 6 pikemen, and 2 macemen. We lost 3 elephants, 2 praets, 2 longbowmen, and an archer.
![[image loading]](http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/5523/20thturnemancipationeep.jpg)
Recommendations: I didn't check to see if we had all the prerequests to start building KNIGHTS. Our cities have units still producing and I have Workers cutting lumber and 2 workers to rebuild a road that was destroyed to reconnect our cities/warriors for quicker transportation. I would suggest declaring war on Hannibal ASAP. I have a couple Trebuchets mixed with Catapults that should help with the cities. I suggest more. We didn't lose any generals and actually GAINED 2 more!!! We can still pull this off! With Napoleon and his allies preventing Hammurabi from getting to us, We can peacefully declare on Hannibal until those 2 countries make peace.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.megaupload.com/?d=4AQREO90
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got the PM and will play tonight. Things are getting exciting!
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Great report full of excitement
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Ok so it was good that I refused to stop trade with napoleon 3 times .
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[url blocked]
Report coming later today
I took 3 cities from Hannibal!
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On June 23 2010 04:48 stk01001 wrote:
i'm enjoying following these succession games and started playing a little civ 4 myself. Quick question for you guys.. have you ever tried out the improved AI MOD to make these succession games more fun / challenging? I'm not sure exaclty how the AI MOD works.. can you use it and still play on easier difficulty settings, or is there only one setting for the MOD?(in which case I'm assuming it'd be as hard, if not harder than immortal?) I'm not even sure how good the MOD is, I know they just released a fairly new one for BTS... just trying to determine how much of a difference it actually makes. Sorry to post in your succesion game thread, but I didn't want to start another Civ 4 thread. Thanks in advance for any input.
I can't really imagine a situation where you would need better AI in Civ... Perhaps when you can beat the game consecutively on Deity with all random settings each time...
Unless this mod changes it so that AI is actually smarter and not getting huge bonuses while you're handicapped.
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Still waiting to see what you did nosliw :D
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Hey I was just playing some civ4, and wondering... why do people generally love universities? They're so expensive. Is it just for Oxford? Banks and observatories, the closest parallels to universities, seem to be better.
And what about wall street? Do people build that? It's quite the hammer investment, and it requires a lot of expensive banks in other cities as well.
Kinda seems to me like the best way to run an economy is to have a lot of cities doing science with one city running specialists for gold, or vice versa. Needing a lot of universities/banks to get the +100% building seems to make that idea suck =[
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I see that our citizens are too happy, and they have forgotten our cruel oppression, which made me an unhappy king. So I immediately switched all productions to trebuchets.
![[image loading]](http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/27/civ4screenshot0011g.jpg)
I waited a turn and whipped them all!
Seeing how we have no money to upgrade units, I decided to use our Great Generals as unit free upgraders. We ends up with 4 free maceman + other CR3 melee units. Good thing CR3 give bonus vs Gunpowder, otherwise I would have no good counter to all the Musketman defending the cities.
Next I declared WAR!!! And we see the first dead city
Before:
![[image loading]](http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9231/civ4screenshot0012b.jpg)
After:
![[image loading]](http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2196/civ4screenshot0009b.jpg)
He has a puny counter stack that basically did nothing besides pillaging some improvements.
Unfortunately, Napoleon made peace with Hammurabi, so I had to speed up my beat down of Hannibal. (Why are we at war with all the H's?)
Surprise! A third city that is weakly defended
![[image loading]](http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/5061/civ4screenshot0013.jpg)
And the result at 1500AD
![[image loading]](http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6883/civ4screenshot0010c.jpg)
Conclusion: Took 3 cities with minimal loses (Trebuchets/Cats/War Elephants)
Napoleon is everyone's worst enemy for some reason, and he is bullying us (poor TL).
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
What's the save and have you PM'ed the next person...friendly reminder from a non-player
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On June 26 2010 12:27 Keilah wrote:
Hey I was just playing some civ4, and wondering... why do people generally love universities? They're so expensive. Is it just for Oxford? Banks and observatories, the closest parallels to universities, seem to be better.
And what about wall street? Do people build that? It's quite the hammer investment, and it requires a lot of expensive banks in other cities as well.
Kinda seems to me like the best way to run an economy is to have a lot of cities doing science with one city running specialists for gold, or vice versa. Needing a lot of universities/banks to get the +100% building seems to make that idea suck =[
City specialization is a big deal. Holy city of well spread and shrined religion+wall street pays for half your empire. Same thing with a science city, great library+oxford makes up half your tech rate.
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On June 25 2010 22:50 nosliw wrote:
[url blocked]
Report coming later today
I took 3 cities from Hannibal!
Did you PM the next guy?
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Yeah I PMed hte next person, save is here:
[url blocked]
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Yeah, I agree. Seeing how behind we are in tech makes me feel like we aren't going to have a late game...
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On June 28 2010 22:18 Pakje wrote:
beeline the internet =P
Hahahahaha
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Okay, should we move on to the next guy now?
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On June 28 2010 19:41 Mystlord wrote:Good sets of turns. I'm surprised we're doing so well militarily despite our tech disadvantage. But military is always easy. We'll just have to see how we handle our post-war economy, and I have a feeling that we're still going to lose spectacularly
My best bet is that you'll be pumping out riflemen when some AI is going to hit you with modern armour and what not while the other one will be finishing the spaceship.
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I PMed the next guy 3 days ago... How long do we wait for a response?
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On June 28 2010 19:41 Mystlord wrote:
But military is always easy. We'll just have to see how we handle our post-war economy,
ALL ESPIONAGE
srsly look at the numbers, it's sooooooooooo efficient compared to self-researching and there's no way we're ever gonna take the lead
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On June 30 2010 11:36 nosliw wrote:
I PMed the next guy 3 days ago... How long do we wait for a response?
Yeah, his time is up
j4s has forfeited his move and it is now Keilah's turn
Ive PM'ed Keilah
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got the save, but we're so ridiculously crushed the only reason to continue playing is as a gag, just to see how we end up losing... but I'm not the type of guy to do that. Really sorry if this is unsporting of me, but I'm going to have to pass my turn and vote that we go ahead and end the game.
Perhaps someone so inclined could declare war on every civ and do a writeup of him trying to survive his 20 turns =]
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I guess you know your stuff Keilah, so I can't argue with that. Still, you paint yourself as a quiter there. Perhaps others are ignorant of the winning chances, but you should do it for + Show Spoiler +. Also, I am very curious of the possibilities that heavy espionage could bring (as a spectator).
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Osaka27149 Posts
If people think it is basically over, why don't all the regular players pick up the save from now, play the next 50 turns or so, and see how well they did. It might show some different thought processes while not tying everyone down into a dead game for the next 3 weeks.
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On July 02 2010 08:13 Manifesto7 wrote:
If people think it is basically over, why don't all the regular players pick up the save from now, play the next 50 turns or so, and see how well they did. It might show some different thought processes while not tying everyone down into a dead game for the next 3 weeks.
This is a great idea! I'd try, but I'm only somewhere around prince (doubt I could solo monarch) so if anyone has a chance of not coming in last, it's not me.
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Ok, well looks like this game has died.
I guess that means we admit defeat
If anyone wants to do a post where they finish off the game, please go ahead. You can declare on the entire world or something and see our whole civ go down in flames, or if you think you can beat this game still, I'd love to see a report of that.
Poll: Admit defeat and go onto next game?Never, la resistance will live on (8) 62% Aye, we be defeated :( (5) 38% 13 total votes Your vote: Admit defeat and go onto next game? (Vote): Aye, we be defeated :(
(Vote): Never, la resistance will live on
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Without blaming anyone in particular, I'd be curious to know the opinion of experienced players concerning what went wrong this game, what could have been done better?
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I think it was because we were unclear on which economic route to take (cottage everything or farming/specialist). We also missed our rush window.
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Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).
Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest.
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One way or another, the main reason for our loss was a complete lack of focus. We could praet rush, we could fast expand, we could cottage whore, we could have a specialist economy, but we sure as hell can't do all of it at once. Some of our early cities were placed very poorly. Also, a lot of the crucial early game production was completely wasted on too many weak city defenders (2 archers per city, PLUS some chariots, is a massive waste, it's comparable to building 6 cannons in your main before expanding in BW). Next time we'll do better =]
I vote we run either Sumeria for the fast ziggurats (courthouse available with priesthood) or a philosophical civ + build the great wall for the fast great spy. That way we can show off the awesomeness of a warmonger + espionage strategy.
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I voted to concede. When we found the iron, we didn't get it for another 30 turns when we had a settler to build right next to it. That killed our Praet rush.
Also, if we do inland sea again... lets not make it circular map. I always found it more fun that way.
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sorry i missed my turn, was out of the country for a few days
enjoyed reading the updates
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Oh man can i sign up for the next game? I love civ i kinda suck at it tho but i love playing it! how often do you guys play?
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Can someone now go do Game 4? Been avidly watching this, and I pity the fact I can't run Civ 4 here.
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On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).
Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest.
Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything.
Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game.
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Ok, If no-one wants to play, then we will start a new game. The poll ended up in favour of continuing, but no-one actually seems to be keen.
If you are playing, and you wish to complete this game, please post a "got it" message in this thread, or just play out the rest of the game and post. If there are no responses, I will just start the new game.
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I started playing:
1. Was doing a good job carving up hannibal with my awesome hero elephant/knight/maceman army.
2. Captured Carthage, another city on the coast, and then the city the capital relocated to when I took carthage.
3. Saladin declared war, and within two turns had four cities captured.
4. Reloaded a few turns back, switched to Buddhism so Saladin wouldn't declare.
5. Mansa declares, invades with fucking infantry. Longbows aren't going to do much here.
Seriously, can you guys not leave the bottom-of-the-scoreboard team alone so we can actually focus our efforts somewhere useful?
Now I don't have the energy to keep going, and it's late. I'm going to bed.
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Osaka27149 Posts
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On July 05 2010 01:43 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).
Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest. Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything. Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game.
Blaming it on Rapid Expansion is highly inaccurate. If you're last in score midgame below deity, you're not expanding correctly.
I think the biggest problem was when one guy built a bunch of units, then the next guy deleted them.
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Hey, lovin' this thread.. If there ever is another game going let me know I'll be up for it.. But I pretty much suck (playing at "normal" difficulty usually). Also don't have the game installed at this very moment but could easily be rectified
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Maybe we should draw back to Monarch level for the next. We kinda just skipped to emperor and I think a lot of players (not all) are not ready for this level. I've got a good 90% win rate on Monarch mode and I'm around 40% now on Emperor from some helpful info. We can all improve somewhere along the line.
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Let's do another one, I just got the game of the steam sale!
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On July 06 2010 16:19 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:43 Manit0u wrote:On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).
Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest. Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything. Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game. Blaming it on Rapid Expansion is highly inaccurate. If you're last in score midgame below deity, you're not expanding correctly. I think the biggest problem was when one guy built a bunch of units, then the next guy deleted them.
I'm pretty sure the best way to "expand" with the romans isn't building 5 cities early game.
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After some lurkerage, I'd say your biggest problem was not forming a longer term game plan for the succession. In SGs it's so critical to identify the key points in the game when the team needs to discuss in length what the long-term game plan is and have everyone stick to that all the way, instead of the current turn player just doing whatever and the next guy going in another direction.
Wrapped Inland Sea, like any wrapped map that has land all the way to the edges, is also a very tough script due to the big number of land target AIs bordering you.
My 2c, nice to see some Civ on these forums
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This looks pretty sick, I don't have Civ 4 myself but I used to play 1 a loooong time ago, then played a hell of a lot of 2.
Played 3 but couldn't stick to it for long.
If I had the time I would like to be part of this, but for now I'll keep up to date with the thread.
Just reading up on some reports from previous pages, shit is interesting. May have to get a hold of it.
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Ok, I think this is over.
When I sober up, I'll make the new thread. (this doesn't mean people cant finish the game and report)
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United States2186 Posts
I took over the game from the last save and were it not for the terrible vassal system being used, the game would've been easily winnable. The problems were twofold: first Hannibal always vassaled out to someone before he could be conquered more fully, and can't be vassalized because our score was too low. I managed to conquer 4 cities before Churchill picked him up. Even though he only had 4 cities left his culture presence was so dominating that the new cities could barely be used and they had homeland penalties since he wasn't wiped out.
That in itself is not gamebreaking, but the problem was the Gandhi, vassal of Churchill. Gandhi was going culture and a.i culture will always be faster than space and requires nukes/attacking to stop unlike space which can be indefinitely delayed via espionage. Churchill was the strongest a.i by far from the start and only got stronger due to more vassals. The only way to stop Gandhi was to enter a war with Churchill (or have someone else cripple him, which didn't happen). Civ has apparently been patched frequently so I can't believe they never fixed the problem that an a.i would assure itself of a loss by vassaling a civ going culture, if not remodel the vassal system to prevent that from occurring.
After much time spent rebuilding from the horrible early position I managed to jump from the Renaissance to the Future in a few turns after saving up lots of EP thanks to Mansa Musa and espionage cost reduction. It wouldn't have been too hard keeping Mansa (had all techs) and Saladin (needed some time to tech) off of space victory with espionage (Churchill was behind having spent most of the game warring, Napoleon was defeated in war), but stopping Gandhi's culture seems impossible since either nukes or capturing means having to declare on Churchill. By the time that was remotely possible Gandhi was about to win, so I called it quits.
So far as I can see the only way to win is for Napoleon + allies to beat Churchill + allies so Gandhi doesn't have the most powerful empire in the game covering his victory. Unfortunately I don't see how that could really be arranged other than RNG or Saladin (liked Churchill) somehow joining in on Napoleon's side. I was virtually a bystander for most of the game as the tech deficit severely limited diplo options until Churchill was too big to matter anyways.
Summary: Vassals are cool in theory but implemented very poorly.
Would certainly be curious to see if anyone had success with another approach since it was hard to decide things at several points and I'm certain my playthrough could be optimized a fair bit more. Not sure if it would matter though given the situation unless there's a way to get the world vs Churchill fairly early on.
On July 06 2010 14:58 Biochemist wrote:
I started playing:
1. Was doing a good job carving up hannibal with my awesome hero elephant/knight/maceman army.
2. Captured Carthage, another city on the coast, and then the city the capital relocated to when I took carthage.
3. Saladin declared war, and within two turns had four cities captured.
4. Reloaded a few turns back, switched to Buddhism so Saladin wouldn't declare.
5. Mansa declares, invades with fucking infantry. Longbows aren't going to do much here.
Seriously, can you guys not leave the bottom-of-the-scoreboard team alone so we can actually focus our efforts somewhere useful?
Now I don't have the energy to keep going, and it's late. I'm going to bed.
I managed to avoid Saladin's DOW (he was WHEOOHRN with troops at our border) same as you with switching religions, and when Mansa was doing the same I begged him to avoid any issue there. Wasn't sure whether it was needed as it's Mansa but I seems it might have been!
On July 07 2010 19:18 Monsen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 16:19 igotmyown wrote:On July 05 2010 01:43 Manit0u wrote:On July 03 2010 20:09 Monsen wrote:
Wasted waaaaaaaaaaaay too much time on the "mass expansion" idea (which isn't a smart move anyway- maintainance will kill you) instead of Pret rushing the hell out of 3-4 neighbours and securing their lands for later expansion (when you can actually afford to have more than 3-4 cities).
Get Iron ASAP. ignore everything else. Pump prets from 2 cities (preferably with baracks) conquer the good (and close !!!) shit (pyramids are sweeeeeeet), sack the rest. Basically, that's what should be done and wasn't. By rolling JC you are BOUND to use the biggest advantage you can get in the early to mid game, which is Praetorians, and use it to eliminate at least one opponent pre-medieval era (before longbowmen kick in for good) and grab his lands. It's best done with 2-3 cities. What we got was 4-5 cities with sub-optimal (or rather, very bad) placement and didn't rush for Praets, missing our window of opportunity and losing at least 40-50 turns during which we would steamroll everything. Consider it a timing attack that sets you up into a better position for later stages of the game. Blaming it on Rapid Expansion is highly inaccurate. If you're last in score midgame below deity, you're not expanding correctly. I think the biggest problem was when one guy built a bunch of units, then the next guy deleted them. I'm pretty sure the best way to "expand" with the romans isn't building 5 cities early game.
Actually Caesar's traits complement that perfectly: org covers additional expansion and imperialistic saves time and lets you get better city placement with faster settlers. It's hardly like maintenance costs are killer on Emperor anyways. The one disadvantage with early rexing on a map like this is the inability to block due to it being almost solely land, so it's not nearly as good as on other maps. I would have praet rushed this game because of that factor, but in general there's nothing blasphemous about not praet rushing. Either way you don't want to come into the game with a set plan of 'praet rush' or 'rex early,' but adapt to the map and circumstances.
I didn't read any of the reports but so far as I could tell from taking over from the last save, it seemed like a lot of factors that resulted from poor and disjointed play. The bad diplo situation (our religion was definitely the wrong one and fighting Hannibal and Hammurabi when Hammurabi can easily be bribed is crazy) is pretty obvious. The city management was the main sore spot, as happiness was poorly kept in check and there were some very problematic decisions like the severe lack of workers (7!) and awful tile allocations (way too many random cottages).
The one bright spot was the military: someone was handling that well enough and thus conquering Hannibal from the start position is quite easy.
Yup civfanatics is incredibly helpful. Reading a bunch of games made learning very easy and was way more useful than just playing a lot with no sense of strategy.
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It's heartening to see someone much better than me couldn't beat it either! I guess I won't go back and try again, lol.
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On July 08 2010 02:54 Ver wrote:
I took over the game from the last save and were it not for the terrible vassal system being used, the game would've been easily winnable. The problems were twofold: first Hannibal always vassaled out to someone before he could be conquered more fully, and can't be vassalized because our score was too low. I managed to conquer 4 cities before Churchill picked him up. Even though he only had 4 cities left his culture presence was so dominating that the new cities could barely be used and they had homeland penalties since he wasn't wiped out.
That in itself is not gamebreaking, but the problem was the Gandhi, vassal of Churchill. Gandhi was going culture and a.i culture will always be faster than space and requires nukes/attacking to stop unlike space which can be indefinitely delayed via espionage. Churchill was the strongest a.i by far from the start and only got stronger due to more vassals. The only way to stop Gandhi was to enter a war with Churchill (or have someone else cripple him, which didn't happen). Civ has apparently been patched frequently so I can't believe they never fixed the problem that an a.i would assure itself of a loss by vassaling a civ going culture, if not remodel the vassal system to prevent that from occurring.
After much time spent rebuilding from the horrible early position I managed to jump from the Renaissance to the Future in a few turns after saving up lots of EP thanks to Mansa Musa and espionage cost reduction. It wouldn't have been too hard keeping Mansa (had all techs) and Saladin (needed some time to tech) off of space victory with espionage (Churchill was behind having spent most of the game warring, Napoleon was defeated in war), but stopping Gandhi's culture seems impossible since either nukes or capturing means having to declare on Churchill. By the time that was remotely possible Gandhi was about to win, so I called it quits.
So far as I can see the only way to win is for Napoleon + allies to beat Churchill + allies so Gandhi doesn't have the most powerful empire in the game covering his victory. Unfortunately I don't see how that could really be arranged other than RNG or Saladin (liked Churchill) somehow joining in on Napoleon's side. I was virtually a bystander for most of the game as the tech deficit severely limited diplo options until Churchill was too big to matter anyways.
Summary: Vassals are cool in theory but implemented very poorly.
Would certainly be curious to see if anyone had success with another approach since it was hard to decide things at several points and I'm certain my playthrough could be optimized a fair bit more. Not sure if it would matter though given the situation unless there's a way to get the world vs Churchill fairly early on.
Yea vassals can be pretty annoying at times.. they seem to add more frustration than fun to the game. I might start playing with vassal states off. I think they should have made it so civilizations can't become vassals while they are at war, this might have made it less of a frustrating feature.
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civ's becoming vassal states while at war has killed me on multiple occasions, its so annoying x.x
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On July 08 2010 05:05 Alventenie wrote:
civ's becoming vassal states while at war has killed me on multiple occasions, its so annoying x.x
Learned it the hard way. Nowadays I remember to turn vassal states to OFF at all times.
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That's a cool report Ver, thanks
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*cough* i was one of the 4 that voted vassal states OFF *cough*
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As a Prince player, I love vassal states because it's the quickest way to a domination victory. Sack a few cities, vassal. Sack a few cities, vassal. You can go from the middle of the scoreboard to a victory in like 40 turns. Probably doesn't tend to work past monarch, though
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