[Civ4] 2nd Succession game - Page 6

narri

United States55 Posts

April 26 2010 14:16 GMT

#101

On April 26 2010 12:55 Fen wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

On April 26 2010 05:32 narri wrote:
I had this very nice report written up...and then my comp unexpectedly shut down

. Next time I'm saving text documents....

Anyway, I made a bunch of trebs then began the BEATDOWN of Mansa Musa. I lost Horsetown to a mid-size stack of Horse Archers and Chariots, but eventually took it back. 21 turns and we have a bunch more cities and tech. My suggestion is to go acquire the silver city up north and the one to the immediate east of the army, then raze the last city and eliminate Mansa altogether (as Timbuktu has 5 unhappies from Motherland)! Then cottage cheese everything while waiting for an opportunity to kill someone else at a later tech level. Note that Curriassers are out for many of our rivals.

Oh, and we have a great scientist at Utrecht. Maybe Academy him there?

Save: [url blocked]

Images:
+ Show Spoiler +

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/5339/tlpic1.jpg
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6704/tlpic2.jpg
http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9428/tlpic3.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3559/tlpic4.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9884/tlpic5.jpg
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8015/tlpic6.jpg
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/8517/tlpic7.jpg
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5082/tlpic8.jpg
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/333/tlpic9.jpg

While I know computers can be a bitch, this type of post really isn't in the nature of the game. The game is supposed to read like a story, so those who arent playing can follow it along turn by turn. When you just say, 'I killed a bunch of stuff' and then throw in the link to 9 random pictures, it doesn't read like a story at all. Please put more effort into your reports.

Also did you PM the next player?

Ok, I apologize for my rashness and brashness and arrogance. Give me a hour or two and this post will have a reconstructed turn report from the logs and what I remember.

And I did PM Mystlord already.

EDIT: New Report
Inherited Turn 1250 AD:
Taking a look, we're a bit behind here. Though we have many friends, our tech is lagging a bit much for my taste, and we don't have enough land to power our way back. Therefore my goal is to build a bunch of trebs and smash Mansa Musa's cities before other AI take them.

I start by begging Compass off of Boudica. That's the third tech I've begged off an AI this game, wow! That usually doesn't happen.

The target techs I want in a little bit are Theology and Feudalism to get some military civics going. The fact that Education is due in 3 turns and a couple of AI don't have it is a good sign we can trade our way back into a smaller tech hole. But I won't have long. And Liberalism is a pipe dream at this point.

The first trades:

[image loading]

Note the map I get in trade. And it's a complete map of the world. What was that about scouting?

Looking at the map, Timbuktu is pretty good, but the cities get worse as we go North.

1255 AD:
I see an opportunity to micro Education down to 1 turn by hiring a scientist somewhere, and I take that opportunity. Plans are starting to form.

Lesson 1: Irrigation and the chain
+ Show Spoiler +

This screenshot is from the initial save of the turnset:
[image loading]

Note how the rice is pretty bad. That's because it isn't irrigated! I need to chain irrigation (because we have Civil Service), so that Rice tile beomes a lot better. It is very important to have high food tiles like Rice,Corn,Pig,Fish,etc. because fast city growth is power!

1260 AD:
Education is in. The holy grail of mid-game tech (as it is uniquely expensive for a tech in this area of the game!). Here, many players value Edu because of the extremely powerful Oxford University (+100% research in one city). But it requires 6 Universities first for this map size. And we have all of 7 cities. Oxford isn't happening for a while (I believe Utrecht is the best bet).

Anyway I scout what trades I'm going to do, but I hold off this turn since I don't like the prices.

1265 AD:
I cash in:
[image loading]

And now in only 3 turns from the start of the turnset I can revolt to this configuration:
[image loading]

Our costs went down quite a bit because of the free units of Vassalage and the lower upkeep of Theocracy. I timed the Trebuchet builds to finish after the 2-turn anarchy period, so they will have a minimum of 4 XP (because some of our cities don't have Barracks) up to 7 XP (which allows 2 promotions).

I've been moving the stack to a better strike position (from 1250 AD save):
[image loading]

Note how starting from here means I reach Timbuktu sooner and without crossing the river.

Lesson 2: Great Generals love Scouts/Explorers
+ Show Spoiler +

I notice we have a spare GG in the stack (huh?). This is an excellent opportunity to show lower-level players one of the secrets of effective warfare:
[image loading]

Yes, this humble explorer will help immensely in the war. Why? Because by attaching a General to him (make sure it's only the GG and the explorer):
[image loading]

He becomes a super Medic (Combat I,Medic I,II,III), healing stacks at or adjacent to his spot +25% a turn, even in enemy territory. Faster healing = faster conquest and less units lost. And because this is an Explorer, it is very unlikely that he is the defender if a counterattack happens. And if you're the hasty type who likes to rapidly right click attacks, you can do that in comfort as Explorers only defend (and thus can't accidentaly attack!).

Gripe:
+ Show Spoiler +

Halfway through moving the units, I noticed that new units weren't under my command and were going to the suboptimal gathering spot. That's when I found that someone had put RALLY POINTS from some of our cities to the suboptimal spot. Rally points are a good tool for playing faster, especially when you're mass producing an army from a ton of cities. But seriously, we (had) all of 7 cities. And it's bad practice to leave rally points there in a Succession Game because people (like me) can get confused easily as their worker goes off to the other side of the world automatically.

Anyway, we wait out the two turns of anarchy while the workers road and farm.

1270 AD:
Anarchy ends, and trebs get to 1 turn left on build. I start whipping trebs left and right, as our short term tech rate is no longer a concern. The only concern at this point is LAND LAND LAND. I think I whipped the Hague too much, because it still can't flip the two food tiles back from Gilgamesh. Sorry about that. (Note, with those two food tiles, the Hague can easily become a power commerce city, maybe even Oxford though there are no rivers).

1275 AD:
As a further sign that we are behind, Suleiman builds the Taj Mahal. Gosh.
But there is hope. It's called Tokugawa.

Tokugawa (+vassal Asoka) is declared upon by Gilgamesh (+ recent vassal Napoleon). That should keep people busy.

1280 AD:
And the next AP resolution is......"stop the war against Gilgamesh"???? He was the one who declared war and he wants to END it?!?! Civ V better have better AI in terms of diplomacy, because this just reeks of silliness! I abstain, wanting nothing of it.

A few more turns is all I need to get going. Something like 7-8 Trebs I think.

1285 AD:
AP resolution passes, and peace is declared. Shortest. War. Ever. Gah!

1295 AD:
Time to die Mansa!
[image loading]

Timbuktu is dead in a few turns. Nothing stops that kind of stack with Mansa's weak empire.

1300 AD:
I get the Guilds technology. Time to build Knights maybe? Let's see:
1) Open Horse Town City Screen
2) Look at tile assignments
3) Notice big red circle on the horses.
4) ????
~~5) Anti-profit!!!~~
Uh oh:
[image loading]

Maybe some scouting would have been good. Luckily there are catapults in the stack (and not many of them). Thus it will take a while for the AI to actually take the city. The AI are dumb in terms of bombardment. Any human in this situation would just attack next turn with the Horse Archers and raze my city. As it stands, it will take 3-4 turns to bombard the defense down and then attack, allowing me to whip a longbow and a Pikeman. I may end up losing this city in the end, but by then Mansa's cities will be broken. The AI, as I said before, are dumb tactically.

1310 AD:
2 turns later, Timbuktu falls with the loss of a couple of trebs. And what a sweet city it is. 2 Food resources, a couple of water tiles (for Dike), and 3 SETTLED GG'S! A keeper for sure.

1315 AD:
Fresh off a victory, I'm handed defeat on many fronts.
1) I lose Horsetown (finally), but there are only a few Horse Archers left. I start gathering a mini-strike force to take it back.
2) Suleiman signs a Defensive Pact with Gilgamesh.
You say: "Huh?"
Answer: There are only 2 techs in the game that allow Defensive Pacts: Commumism (thankfully they aren't THAT far ahead) and Military Tradition. Which implies at least one of those two guys are running around with Curiassers. Oh boy.

Meanwhile, I'm in a race for the next city, as Boudica is converging on Djenne with some forces. Run run run!

1320 AD:
I told you Liberalism was a pipe dream. Zara gets it (I hope it wasn't something awesome like Steel...).

1335 AD:
As we learn how to write Epics (Literature tech), we capture Djenne. Now Agra is a much better city due to relief from cultural pressure. The force moves on to the final target of this turnset, Gao. I decide that I will take one extra turn to take that city before passing on to the next player.

1355 AD:
I take back Horsetown as well as Gao.

Summary:

[image loading]

Mansa is BROKEN at this point. Take the stack and get the rest of his cities. I would keep everything except the city of Tademekka. Please keep the Silver city, as we need to happy now.

And make sure Mansa is ELIMINATED. Capitulation is too leinient a punishment for settling too close to us! More practically, Timbuktu has 5 unhappies coming from "We yearn to join our Motherland" as it still has a lot of Mansa culture. Only way to get rid of that is to eliminate Mansa from the game. Thankfully, Tokugawa looks like he is both behind and hated.

I popped a Great Scientist sitting in Utrecht. I leave it to the next person to decide what to do. If we want Oxford eventually in Utrecht (which I suggest after converting those farms to cottages!), I guess an Academy should go there.

I'm halfway through Printing Press, which will help a LOT with all the cottages we have (and could possibly be more trading bait

). Feel free to trade liberally, as we have three Friendly AI (with no fear of "You are too advanced" difficulties).

I don't think you want to make any more medieval war after Mansa, as everyone either has too much tech, too many units (Boudica, Tokugawa), or under vassal protection (Asoka). If Asoka (stupidly) breaks free, please gather the army there then kill him. But it will probably have to wait until the era of Cannon.

I suggest trying to get Democracy, Economics, Liberalism, and Printing Press (either directly or more likely through trade of military tech). We will cottage cheese our new lands and then adopt Universal Suffrage/Free Speech/Emancipation and show the true power of the Town! On the religious end, maybe go back to Organized Religion and build infrastructure/spread more Hinduism.

I want Heroic Epic in Timbuktu. Those settled GG's call for it!

Shivaz

Canada1783 Posts

April 26 2010 17:14 GMT

#102

You researched paper/education route but traded both before getting liberalism for ourselves?

Now the AI is going to get liberalism most likely.. and our tech rate is really slow 1355AD and still no liberalism. We fighting too many small wars with not a lot of rewards. (Bullying Mansa mostly lol)

edit: well since we are on monarch we still might get liberalism lol..

narri

United States55 Posts

April 26 2010 17:22 GMT

#103

On April 27 2010 02:14 Shivaz wrote:
You researched paper/education route but traded both before getting liberalism for ourselves?

FYI: Liberalism went DURING my turnset. We had no shot at all, as too many AI had Edu and Phil before we had either. Anyway, Liberalism isn't the biggest loss in the world because we have so many trading partners. Just get Mansa's land and improve it better than the AI can. (Smart) cottage spam leads to a very powerful endgame tech speed.

Badjas

Netherlands2038 Posts

April 26 2010 19:13 GMT

#104

Thanks for the report narri

excess1ve

United States359 Posts

April 26 2010 22:21 GMT

#105

loved the report narri, very insightful for a beginner like me, hope you take another turn

Mystlord

United States10264 Posts

April 27 2010 01:13 GMT

#106

I got the save. I might find the time to play tonight, who knows

Mystlord

United States10264 Posts

April 27 2010 05:56 GMT

#107

Ok, played my turns. Boring, boring, boring... I'm pretty sure that the next person could just pick up where I left off without a report and play just fine....

Whatever.

Anyway, as my turn starts, everyone decides to get buddy buddy!

[image loading]

Gilgamesh wins the Apostolic Palace Elections... Whatever. But the big thing is that defensive pact with Zara. That generally means that the AI will never attack or be attacked at any point during the game from here on out. This can be both good or bad for us, but it'd be even better if we were part of that defensive pact! Unfortunately we lack the required tech... Oh well.

Ok.... Waiting for Printing Press to pop and taking Mansa Musa's remaining cities while I wait... And then....

[image loading]

Defensive Pact! Free Market! UGH we're so far behind tech wise. And Zara is only #3. We can't even get a proper gauge of how far ahead Suleiman and Gilgamesh are because we lack the prerequisites... In any case, the establishment of a defensive pact with France means that the AI is definitely getting buddy buddy here.... No more wars for a while I guess.

At three turns from Printing Press I look up at the top bar and realize that we're going to be short by just a littttle bit. So it's time to do some rearranging of priorities! First find the city that's growing...

[image loading]

Target sighted. Now let's rearrange everything around...

[image loading]

Perfect. I switched this back when Printing Press popped so you don't have to worry about that. Two turns later...

[image loading]

Huzzah! That's tons of extra income that'll be awesome! What to research next? I chose Liberalism. Economics would be nice, but we'll have to waste time on Banking, and that'll just be wasted time since our top infrastructure priority is certainly not Banks right now... All of our cities are lacking a lot of basic infrastructure, so we can always go back for Banking after we grab Liberalism. Free Speech and Free Religion will do wonders for our economy... Although we might want to hold off on Free Religion until later since religion bonuses work wonders for diplomatic relations....

ANYWAY! I chose Liberalism, so deal with it

. We do have time to change techs though. I never devoted anything to Liberalism, so if the next person feels that Banking (or another tech) is more important, go ahead and change it.

It's at this point that I realized that I forgot about the Great Scientist in Utrecht that was put to sleep... And I smack myself for forgetting about him. I immediately build an Academy in Utrecht. That city will be a literal POWERHOUSE. It has so many flood plains + river tires, and once we get Dikes... *Shudder*.

[image loading]

I can already imagine it....

Anyway, the rest of my turn is basically babysitting cities and workers... I had some action with the campaign in the north, but it was just rolling over Mansa's last few units...

A view of our kingdom (and world) at turn 300:

[image loading]

Unfortunately Mansa still owns those last two cities in the middle of nowhere.... So the next person will have to go up and grab those. Mansa has no more useful techs to donate to our cause (he has Music... If we want that for like Military Tradition.... I'd say we skip Cavalry and go straight to Infantry. The only person we can really declare on is Tokugawa + Asoka (Boudica is rather well-liked by everyone else), and we're nowhere near equipped for that. By the time Mansa's cities are properly integrated, we'll definitely be at Industrialism. Wow this was a long side note).

And the last important thing... A map of current diplomatic relations in the world:

[image loading]

Basically Gilgamesh is friends with everyone, Tokugawa is friends with no one, every other important leader is friends with everyone. Mansa and Asoka pretty much hate everyone. In any case, the presence of the defensive pact means that we're guaranteed peace for a while.... Infrastructure time!

[url blocked]

Biochemist has been PMed.

Fen

Australia1848 Posts

April 27 2010 10:44 GMT

#108

On April 26 2010 23:16 narri wrote:
Lesson 2: Great Generals love Scouts/Explorers
+ Show Spoiler +

I notice we have a spare GG in the stack (huh?). This is an excellent opportunity to show lower-level players one of the secrets of effective warfare:
[image loading]

Yes, this humble explorer will help immensely in the war. Why? Because by attaching a General to him (make sure it's only the GG and the explorer):
[image loading]

Wow, that is a really awesome tactic. Im dying to use that in a game now. Thanks for rewriting the report narri.

Spenguin

Australia3316 Posts

April 27 2010 11:46 GMT

#109

Wow having never played any of the civilisation games before this looks extremely challenging and extremely fun, is Civ 4 expensive and is it hard to learn the basics?

Biochemist

United States1008 Posts

April 27 2010 16:04 GMT

#110

Will play as soon as I get a chance. Probably tomorrow.

narri

United States55 Posts

April 27 2010 18:24 GMT

#111

Get Liberalism ASAP (even through trading) and revolt to Free Speech + Organized Religion. Don't take Mercantilism because those trade routes are lucrative. And spread Hinduism to the old Mansa cities. In fact I'm tempted to eat the turn of anarchy and revolt to OR right now because we're in infrastructure (=buildings) mode, and the hammer bonus is nice.

Shivaz

Canada1783 Posts

April 27 2010 19:06 GMT

#112

Just checked the save quickly myself, and just notice some small things. We don't really need to build forges in all our cities that are being built right now since we are running mostly cottage. This will probably turn into a kremlin(if we get it) rushbuy game so we only need money multipliers such as banks and markets. Napoleon and Boudica are in plotting war mode ( we have enough on our hands right now) and their target is almost certainly mansa. We can also bribe Suleiman/Zara Yaqob into declaring on toku. We need to do something such as bribing them into war so that the current score leaders don't run away with their tech lead. Also Gilgamesh with 3 defense pack

edit: oh yeah also no point in going free speech until we have democracy, we have like no towns at all. This will save 1 anarchy turn.

narri

United States55 Posts

April 27 2010 19:25 GMT

#113

On April 28 2010 04:06 Shivaz wrote:
Just checked the save quickly myself, and just notice some small things. We don't really need to build forges in all our cities that are being built right now since we are running mostly cottage. This will probably turn into a kremlin(if we get it) rushbuy game so we only need money multipliers such as banks and markets. Napoleon and Boudica are in plotting war mode ( we have enough on our hands right now) and their target is almost certainly mansa. We can also bribe Suleiman/Zara Yaqob into declaring on toku. We need to do something such as bribing them into war so that the current score leaders don't run away with their tech lead. Also Gilgamesh with 3 defense pack

Even if you don't want the hammer power of Forges, realize that they give +1 extra happy for each of Gold,Silver,and Gems. And we have Gold and Gems already. And Mansa has a source of Silver that will soon be ours. So +3 happy is worth the forge as well. And when we go to Universal Suffrage, those town hammers need multiplication from somewhere....

Markets are useless (usually). Grocers are marginally better (because most late-game issues are health related, and they unlock Supermarkets). Banks are fairly good, especially if you want Corporations + Wall Street. Though I think we will eventually adopt State Property and workshop any unworked cottages on plains.

What do we want to do for winning?
I think AP or UN diplo is out, as the AI's love each other too much (though they like us too, luckily

). Don't make me laugh about getting cultural (though it might be possible with one or two more religions getting into our empire).

We don't have the tech power (or the hammer power) to fight a war of conquest or domination, especially since we would have to take on the entire Hindu world.

Time victory. What is that

?

So that leaves space. Cottage spam on green tiles go! Gives us the most time to trade tech back up. Grow like mad while working cottages, and get some power to our civ. Having a bunch of Friendly AI's makes this a lot easier.

Biochemist

United States1008 Posts

April 27 2010 22:41 GMT

#114

Gilgamesh is a master of diplomacy.

So I start out by building cottages on greens and workshops on the few remaining unbuilt plains. I find a few hills here and there to build mines on. I do a lot of whipping to get forges/courthouses/grocers up in cities that don't have them. A few of our cities are absolutely hopeless when it comes to production capacity, so thank God for slavery.

[image loading]

A few turns in I get presented with this. Since I'm already open borders with almost everyone anyway, I figure what can it hurt?

[image loading]

First city down, we sack it and keep moving. A great general is born. Having nothing productive he can do back on the homefront, I sent him north and he eventually gets merged with a maceman.

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/5855/civ4screenshot0034.jpg

Revolution! I take organized religion for the building bonus (not sure how much it helps given the amount of whipping we can do), and free speech.

[image loading]

Open borders succeeds. I guess that gives us access to Asoka...

[image loading]

As I approach the final city, I find a large stack of Japanese waiting. I attacked so I could sack it (and get some extra small change) rather than let them capture it.

Success! I lost four >75% fights in a row which is always annoying, but we got it anyway. Captured two workers, although we don't really need them right now since there's not much left to improve at this point.

[image loading]

Tokugawa wants us to cancel our deals with the Ethiopians. I turned him down, which gave us an additional -2 and crossed the threshold to Cautious. It doesn't matter though, since he is way behind technologically and doesn't have anything we could possibly want.

[image loading]

Gilgamesh declares war on Tokugawa, resulting in the above chain reaction.

[image loading]

He then asks us for our help, which I sadly had to decline. We only have one small stack and aren't anywhere near ready for war with anyone.

[image loading]

He gets Napoleon to join in on the fun instead, and then uses the AP to get everyone to declare peace with him!

[image loading]

Asoka, Tokugawa, and we all voted no, but everyone else voted yes. It was close, but Gilgamesh managed to start a world war and then pull out completely clean =\

[image loading]

This is the mess he left behind. Boudica/Napoleon/Zara vs Tokugawa/Asoka. If we switched to Nationalism we could have an army up and running pretty soon to take advantage of this, or we could continue on towards whatever peaceful victory condition my successor thinks is most appropriate. We're way ahead in tech of both Tokugawa and Napoleon, and now that they're all warring I think it might be totally possible for us to use that advantage to vassalize one of them. I started researching Chemistry on my last turn because science is awesome, but of course whoever comes next can change it to whatever they want.

Edit: Here's the save
PM'd Shivaz

Shivaz

Canada1783 Posts

April 28 2010 00:05 GMT

#115

Ok first hope you guys don't mind I went over by couple turns cause I was really close to a tech and wanted to get democracy first before I finish my turns. I went there because I looked at the trade situation and we weren't really in it. We have no monopoly tech and I saw democracy is what we needed and it would be a monopoly if we get it first and we probably could get 2-3 techs for it. But unfortunately almost all the AIs we want to trade with partial researched it so I could only get replaceable parts from trade, the others value it very little at all.. Anyways onto the pictures.

Start off with some resource trades

So Gilga gets dragged into some wars.

I said no don't be confused by the image

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I started automating workers with leaving old improvement options on, next player can micro the workers if they want but there is not much for the workers to do now. Should probably try to get 1 monopoly tech and get some tech trades going. Ottomans still going for culture but he is still very far away and I dunno about Gilga I am worried he is going to get a UN win he has a lot of votes...

Here is the save : [url blocked]
pmed next player.

oh yeah also i guess targeting napoleon is out of question for now cause he became a peace vassal, arg i fucking hate peace vassals

edit2: also i finished my turn revolting into universal suffrage and emancipation (fuck yah cottage growth) it will take 2 turns of anarchy.

Eben

United States769 Posts

April 28 2010 00:20 GMT

#116

I just spent the last 20 minutes reading this thread, so much fun to just read it!

Not so much fun for the paper i'm "writing".

Think I might need to install and get in on this soon... Very awesome turn write-ups! keep them coming.

Mystlord

United States10264 Posts

April 28 2010 01:08 GMT

#117

... And when all those defensive pacts popped up during my turn I thought that it was a sure sign that the AI was going to stay quiet for a while.

Ha Gilgamesh... Ha the AI... Sigh.

I think we're heading towards a Space victory no matter how we dice it, unless Boudica + Tokugawa + Asoka gives us enough for Domination.

Biochemist

United States1008 Posts

April 28 2010 02:24 GMT

#118

On April 28 2010 10:08 Mystlord wrote:
... And when all those defensive pacts popped up during my turn I thought that it was a sure sign that the AI was going to stay quiet for a while.

Ha Gilgamesh... Ha the AI... Sigh.

I think we're heading towards a Space victory no matter how we dice it, unless Boudica + Tokugawa + Asoka gives us enough for Domination.

I doubt we'll get enough for domation just from those three, but will conquering all of them give us the strength to take on one of the big three (zara/gilg/sully)?

I'm all for a space race, but we need to figure out how to make up the tech gap. We're probably the largest country now, if we can streamline our economy shouldn't we just be able to produce more beakers than anyone else?

Mystlord

United States10264 Posts

April 28 2010 03:33 GMT

#119

On April 28 2010 11:24 Biochemist wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think going to war with Boudica + Tokugawa + Asoka excludes us from having a proper war with any other power... Although it depends on how much land more we need to get a domination victory.

We might be able to squeak out a Space victory, but it'll be close. We're on Monarch, so the AI gets a slight bonus, plus they're already ahead of us... It'll depend on how long they end up being embroiled in war.

miseiler

United States1389 Posts

April 28 2010 04:20 GMT

#120

Got the PM, I will play this tomorrow night, probably

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[Civ4] 2nd Succession game - Page 6

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