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Sorry guys, I'm a bit tired after work today. I skimmed your replies but I can't address every point you make right now.
Anyway, let me explain to you why it's wrong to bash this article. For one thing, while it may rub many people in the wrong way... I really don't see how you can claim that this "article" doesn't make any sense. In terms of logic, it is perfectly fine. He made a claim and explained it. Why should I bash his content for that? Like I said, I didn't even really agree with him, I simply thought he made a very good argument and brought up some valid points. Just because this is the Internet, doesn't mean we can't act civilly. I know, I know, that all civility goes out the window when you have the perfect safety of anonymity. I still try to act like a decent human being despite that. So no, I don't think that this article. Yes, all of you put up some very good points. BW pros didn't come and dominate like intrigue predicted they would, in a space of only around half a year. This does not give you the right to call everything int his article as "false and inaccurate." Are you arguing against the idea or just trying to insult everything about it?
SiskosGoatee, I don't find these builds very "revolutionary." I mean, yes they are innovative and I watched Leenock's debut in the MLG. However, the meta is essentially the same back then as it was now but... I do concede that I am not the most knowledgeable theorycrafter out there though. In fact, I'm probably a really bad one. Bomber's TvP made a much more lasting impression on me than anything Leenock or Life did and my favorite matchup happens to be TvZ.
Holy Arrow, I honestly didn't mean to jab at your personal skill at SCII. I am strictly keeping personal insults out of arguments. My point was that SCII and BW are similar enough that any KeSPA pro will, for the most part be able to play at, at least High Masters level. That was the only point I was trying to make. Obviously I don't proofread my work that much on Forums and if you took that as an insult I apologize.
EDIT:
About the "identical game" tidbit, I don't mean that SCII and BW are exactly the same. Only extremely similar. Almost to a point like CSS and CSGO. Different games, but almost the same with many heavy or light adjustments here and there. I.E. the recoil on SMGs when comparing CSS SMGs and CSGO SMGs. Almost completely different.
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On January 13 2013 18:07 HanSomPa wrote:
Anyway, let me explain to you why it's wrong to bash this article. For one thing, while it may rub many people in the wrong way... I really don't see how you can claim that this "article" doesn't make any sense. In terms of logic, it is perfectly fine. He made a claim and explained it. Why should I bash his content for that? Like I said, I didn't even really agree with him, I simply thought he made a very good argument and brought up some valid points. Just because this is the Internet, doesn't mean we can't act civilly. I know, I know, that all civility goes out the window when you have the perfect safety of anonymity. I still try to act like a decent human being despite that. So no, I don't think that this article. Yes, all of you put up some very good points. BW pros didn't come and dominate like intrigue predicted they would, in a space of only around half a year. This does not give you the right to call everything int his article as "false and inaccurate." Are you arguing against the idea or just trying to insult everything about it? I'm not saying it didn't make sense, I'm saying it didn't end up being true.
At the time of the article's writing, of course everyone agreed, and everyone still does, that any BW pro can switch to SC2 and become an SC2 pro and that the moment KeSPA switched they would be at least on even footing, that's not a controversial claim, the controversial part of the article and it's very raison d'être is that they would trample the competition and put the eSF pros out of business.
In any case, the major flaw in the article's logic is the assumption that bad proleague results means bad player without talent. The majority of great SC2 players who were so-so in BW were basically practice monsters in BW. People who could beat the best of the best in practice but just couldn't replicate it in the booth. I mean, MC was sent out 11 times in proleague in his short tenure and went 1-10. One would assume they kept sending him out because they knew he was very good, but he just couldn't do it in the booth. There are more people like that. Pokju was also known as a practice monster and rumour has it that Luxury was better than Jaedong in practice.
SiskosGoatee, I don't find these builds very "revolutionary." I mean, yes they are innovative and I watched Leenock's debut in the MLG. However, the meta is essentially the same back then as it was now but... I do concede that I am not the most knowledgeable theorycrafter out there though. In fact, I'm probably a really bad one. Bomber's TvP made a much more lasting impression on me than anything Leenock or Life did and my favorite matchup happens to be TvZ. Bomber has pretty standard TvP doesn't he?
In any sense, revolutionary or not, the fact of the matter is that Leenock and Life win games. Jaedong does so to a far lesser extend so I don't buy this thing that Jaedong hasn't dominated SC2 yet because the game doesn't allow him with its lower skill ceiling. He doesn't allow himself because he's not as good as Leenock.
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On January 13 2013 18:07 HanSomPa wrote:
Sorry guys, I'm a bit tired after work today. I skimmed your replies but I can't address every point you make right now.
Anyway, let me explain to you why it's wrong to bash this article. For one thing, while it may rub many people in the wrong way... I really don't see how you can claim that this "article" doesn't make any sense. In terms of logic, it is perfectly fine. He made a claim and explained it. Why should I bash his content for that? Like I said, I didn't even really agree with him, I simply thought he made a very good argument and brought up some valid points. Just because this is the Internet, doesn't mean we can't act civilly. I know, I know, that all civility goes out the window when you have the perfect safety of anonymity. I still try to act like a decent human being despite that. So no, I don't think that this article. Yes, all of you put up some very good points. BW pros didn't come and dominate like intrigue predicted they would, in a space of only around half a year. This does not give you the right to call everything int his article as "false and inaccurate." Are you arguing against the idea or just trying to insult everything about it?
SiskosGoatee, I don't find these builds very "revolutionary." I mean, yes they are innovative and I watched Leenock's debut in the MLG. However, the meta is essentially the same back then as it was now but... I do concede that I am not the most knowledgeable theorycrafter out there though. In fact, I'm probably a really bad one. Bomber's TvP made a much more lasting impression on me than anything Leenock or Life did and my favorite matchup happens to be TvZ.
Holy Arrow, I honestly didn't mean to jab at your personal skill at SCII. I am strictly keeping personal insults out of arguments. My point was that SCII and BW are similar enough that any KeSPA pro will, for the most part be able to play at, at least High Masters level. That was the only point I was trying to make. Obviously I don't proofread my work that much on Forums and if you took that as an insult I apologize.
EDIT:
About the "identical game" tidbit, I don't mean that SCII and BW are exactly the same. Only extremely similar. Almost to a point like CSS and CSGO. Different games, but almost the same with many heavy or light adjustments here and there. I.E. the recoil on SMGs when comparing CSS SMGs and CSGO SMGs. Almost completely different.
I didn't take it as an insult, I was just confused. Anyway, I agree that not literally everything in the article is false and inaccurate. When I made that blanket statement I was more referring to the overall message of the article, not the statements of fact within that message. Obviously, BW pros have the talent and work ethic that the article describes. Obviously, some of the top SC2 players were indeed quite bad or mediocre in BW, just as the article says. The main problem is how the article treats the ESF players in their transition from BW to SC2. It essentially states that if you were bad in BW, you're still bad in SC2, and since many of the top SC2 players were bad/mediocre in BW, SC2 competition must be a "farce" due to how "bad" all of the top players in SC2 are. I find that line of reasoning to be illogical due to how much of a gross oversimplification it is. There could be many reasons why someone might not have found success in BW but did find success in SC2 besides "everyone's bad so that's the only reason he (MVP/Nestea/MC/etc) is winning stuff". One example: Maybe a fresh start for the players in a different game actually makes a huge difference in mentality, work ethic, etc. The bottom line is that the article makes a lot of assumptions and oversimplfications that sound reasonable, but actually aren't (in my eyes, at least).
I must disagree that the article is perfectly fine in terms of logic. It definitely makes a coherent argument, but that doesn't mean that the argument is logical. For example, if I stated "violent video games contribute to violence in society due to how it desensitizes our youth", that's a coherent argument. I lay out a cause and an effect, and many people successfully (and unfortunately) sell that argument. However, that doesn't make the argument logical. But I digress, we might just be nitpicking over semantics.
Now, HanSomPa, this next part has little to do with what you said, I just want to include it to lay it out there.
Here's the Hot_Bid quote from the article that I strongly disagree with:
"The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. "
This quote excellently illustrates the idea that some BW fans seem to buy into - that some BW players (like Flash or Jaedong) are just so damn good, have such good work ethics, are such brilliant players, that they can attain being at the top in any game. I personally find it extremely arrogant (not sure if that's the right word, but I don't think it detracts from my overall point) that anyone would think that the game that they're a fan of is so deep that top players of that game would be able to be top players in any other game. Any other game? Really? Do certain BW fans actually think that with enough time, Flash will become the next Kasparov if he for some reason switched to chess? I find that highly unlikely.
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The hot bit quote is ridiculously ludicrous. Neither Flash or Jaedong will be chess grandmasters most likely, Kasparov will also probably not even break master league. Note that Kasparov is far more special to chess than Flash ever was to BW. Kasparov has been the classical chess world champion for longer than BW's competitive existence, there's your Bonjwa. Your move God Young Ho. If you honestly believe that Jaedong and Flash could be at the top in any game you're delusional.
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You can't bash the article too much cause the current state of the game is shit. Terran is the only race that the player can benefit from having the "Kespa edge" : micro, multitasking. That's why you see the Kespa terrans showing strong potential (flash/baby/bogus/fantasy) whereas their z/p are really meh. But Terran can't win anything atm. Even MvP lost to some no name NA master zergs on his stream. The game is that imbalance.
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On January 14 2013 00:23 1raxexpand wrote:
You can't bash the article too much cause the current state of the game is shit. Terran is the only race that the player can benefit from having the "Kespa edge" : micro, multitasking. That's why you see the Kespa terrans showing strong potential (flash/baby/bogus/fantasy) whereas their z/p are really meh. But Terran can't win anything atm. Even MvP lost to some no name NA master zergs on his stream. The game is that imbalance. You know that Protoss is performing the best in proleague by a vast margin don't you?
Protoss is pretty much laughable in the GSL but in proleague protoss is tearing it up, seems to me that prima facie the 'KeSPA edge', whatever it means, is most satisfied by Protoss.
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On January 13 2013 22:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The hot bit quote is ridiculously ludicrous. Neither Flash or Jaedong will be chess grandmasters most likely, Kasparov will also probably not even break master league. Note that Kasparov is far more special to chess than Flash ever was to BW. Kasparov has been the classical chess world champion for longer than BW's competitive existence, there's your Bonjwa. Your move God Young Ho. If you honestly believe that Jaedong and Flash could be at the top in any game you're delusional.
Sc2 and Bw are very similar, so you would expect people being hugely talented at one to be hugely talented at the other.
Chess has nothing to do with either BW or SC2 so the analogy is plain bad, and i do think intrigue wouldn't have said anything stupid like suggesting that Flash would be a supertalented chess player. You can similarly expect a chess player to be good at checkers, probably not so much at tennis.
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On January 15 2013 08:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2013 22:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The hot bit quote is ridiculously ludicrous. Neither Flash or Jaedong will be chess grandmasters most likely, Kasparov will also probably not even break master league. Note that Kasparov is far more special to chess than Flash ever was to BW. Kasparov has been the classical chess world champion for longer than BW's competitive existence, there's your Bonjwa. Your move God Young Ho. If you honestly believe that Jaedong and Flash could be at the top in any game you're delusional. Sc2 and Bw are very similar, so you would expect people being hugely talented at one to be hugely talented at the other. Chess has nothing to do with either BW or SC2 so the analogy is plain bad, and i do think intrigue wouldn't have said anything stupid like suggesting that Flash would be a supertalented chess player. You can similarly expect a chess player to be good at checkers, probably not so much at tennis.
Yes, intrigue didn't personally suggest that Flash would be a supertalented chess player, but he had no problem including the section from Hot_Bid that did indeed imply that.
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On January 15 2013 12:15 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 08:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 13 2013 22:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The hot bit quote is ridiculously ludicrous. Neither Flash or Jaedong will be chess grandmasters most likely, Kasparov will also probably not even break master league. Note that Kasparov is far more special to chess than Flash ever was to BW. Kasparov has been the classical chess world champion for longer than BW's competitive existence, there's your Bonjwa. Your move God Young Ho. If you honestly believe that Jaedong and Flash could be at the top in any game you're delusional. Sc2 and Bw are very similar, so you would expect people being hugely talented at one to be hugely talented at the other. Chess has nothing to do with either BW or SC2 so the analogy is plain bad, and i do think intrigue wouldn't have said anything stupid like suggesting that Flash would be a supertalented chess player. You can similarly expect a chess player to be good at checkers, probably not so much at tennis. Yes, intrigue didn't personally suggest that Flash would be a supertalented chess player, but he had no problem including the section from Hot_Bid that did indeed imply that.
Fine there is one sentence from HotBid (who started saying that skills transfered because the games were very similar) that is plain wrong. You don't become a chess genius with Sc abilities since you need an ungodly memory, sense of logic, spacial representation ability and capacity to follow extremely long reasoning to be a chess genius, all qualities that are not remotely needed in sc. That's one sentence in the whole article that is really exagerated.
Sc 2 and Bw skill transfer just as chess and checkers skills do. Kasparov or Carlsen would be exterminating any checker champion if they had five years to put into the game.
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On January 15 2013 17:52 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2013 12:15 HolyArrow wrote:On January 15 2013 08:49 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 13 2013 22:33 SiskosGoatee wrote:
The hot bit quote is ridiculously ludicrous. Neither Flash or Jaedong will be chess grandmasters most likely, Kasparov will also probably not even break master league. Note that Kasparov is far more special to chess than Flash ever was to BW. Kasparov has been the classical chess world champion for longer than BW's competitive existence, there's your Bonjwa. Your move God Young Ho. If you honestly believe that Jaedong and Flash could be at the top in any game you're delusional. Sc2 and Bw are very similar, so you would expect people being hugely talented at one to be hugely talented at the other. Chess has nothing to do with either BW or SC2 so the analogy is plain bad, and i do think intrigue wouldn't have said anything stupid like suggesting that Flash would be a supertalented chess player. You can similarly expect a chess player to be good at checkers, probably not so much at tennis. Yes, intrigue didn't personally suggest that Flash would be a supertalented chess player, but he had no problem including the section from Hot_Bid that did indeed imply that. Fine there is one sentence from HotBid (who started saying that skills transfered because the games were very similar) that is plain wrong. You don't become a chess genius with Sc abilities since you need an ungodly memory, sense of logic, spacial representation ability and capacity to follow extremely long reasoning to be a chess genius, all qualities that are not remotely needed in sc. That's one sentence in the whole article that is really exagerated. Sc 2 and Bw skill transfer just as chess and checkers skills do. Kasparov or Carlsen would be exterminating any checker champion if they had five years to put into the game. People aren't criticising the entire article because of that quote, they are criticising that quote because of that quote.
Apart from that they are criticising the entire article because it didn't turn out to be true.
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This has probably already been said, but I think this is clearly a case of these mediocre BW players not being as good mechanically once the builds and counter builds etc are all figured out for each race and MU. Conversely, we see this exact case with the top BW players over the years, having similar records in sc2 as the top SC2 players had then. What the top sc2 players are good at, is learning fast and adapting, quick/critical thinking, and creative ingenuity style play. The problem with this, like anything, is that it is short lived until the mechanically sound macro oriented players absorb all that information and start to take over the field.
I can personally relate to this line of reasoning (biased?) because I am of this style of player. Which is why I did very well in the beta and early stages of SC2 and now (even though I don't really play or practice anymore) I tapered off in the ranks and rating. The same held true with BW for me though even when I was a young teenager. I remember holding my own vs top level players and winning very consistantly until about 2002-2003 when pros were more established and everything became about mechanics and macro and repetitive, tedious, practicing that is unreasonable.
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On November 06 2012 08:33 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote:
Compare the skill of KESPA pros now to the first year of SC2. Compare GSL 1 to the first KESPA tournament at MLG.
Yeah, I would imagine that he feels just fine.
Your an idiot if you think that even makes sense .
When kespa came onto the scene the game was almost out for 3 years or getting close . The kespa players had thousands upon thousands of replays and other information to help them with the game . These didnt exist when the first GSL was on, when sc2 was out people were bad , I am mid master now and I watch first open seasons and i think I could win . The author of this article should be ashamed at how much flame and anger he out into the community .
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Why can't we just accept that this article was wrong and move on people -_- Why still arguing about it? It was obviously grossly exaggerating the near-instant sc2 skill of Kespa players, and was also way way way too early, being released when sc2 had barely just come into the scene tbh. It of course raised some good points about practice regimes from Kespa and the sheer larger player pool, but the assumptions overall were wrong and we see that now. The article itself says it's just one person's opinion/prediction nearly 2 years ago, it's not a shock that it was wrong, we can let it go now lol
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I just need to remind people of one very important fact here, because the argument I'm reading is way off centre. The article doesn't claim that players who switch to StarCraft II alongside KeSPA's official transition will do better than players who switched earlier or were never affiliated with KeSPA, it claims that players will maintain the same differential according to inter-KeSPA rankings. It claims that players like Nestea, MC and MVP had no results in Brood War, and that players who were good at Brood War would be as far above them in SC2 as they were in Brood War. This article isn't saying that "KeSPA players" will dominate SC2 when they switch over, it's saying that TaekBangLeeSsang will dominate SC2 when they switch over. And so on down the Brood War food chain until players like MVP are dominated by Light[Alive] or Zero and MC gets dominated by pretty much anyone including Frozean/CuteAngel
The proof of this article's blatant error is not found in comparing KeSPA players to the likes of Life, the proof is in comparing KeSPA players among each other and seeing if they still correspond to their Brood War hierarchy. The evidence is not Life, it's Bogus, by.Sun and Roro. And Bisu, Stork and Jaedong.
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On March 08 2013 07:00 ffadicted wrote:
Why can't we just accept that this article was wrong and move on people -_- Why still arguing about it? It was obviously grossly exaggerating the near-instant sc2 skill of Kespa players, and was also way way way too early, being released when sc2 had barely just come into the scene tbh. It of course raised some good points about practice regimes from Kespa and the sheer larger player pool, but the assumptions overall were wrong and we see that now. The article itself says it's just one person's opinion/prediction nearly 2 years ago, it's not a shock that it was wrong, we can let it go now lol
Why? Because for some reason this dam thread is still not locked. As long as its open TL is basically ok with the whole ESF vs Kespa nonsense.
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On March 09 2013 11:21 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I just need to remind people of one very important fact here, because the argument I'm reading is way off centre. The article doesn't claim that players who switch to StarCraft II alongside KeSPA's official transition will do better than players who switched earlier or were never affiliated with KeSPA, it claims that players will maintain the same differential according to inter-KeSPA rankings. It claims that players like Nestea, MC and MVP had no results in Brood War, and that players who were good at Brood War would be as far above them in SC2 as they were in Brood War. This article isn't saying that "KeSPA players" will dominate SC2 when they switch over, it's saying that TaekBangLeeSsang will dominate SC2 when they switch over. And so on down the Brood War food chain until players like MVP are dominated by Light[Alive] or Zero and MC gets dominated by pretty much anyone including Frozean/CuteAngel
The proof of this article's blatant error is not found in comparing KeSPA players to the likes of Life, the proof is in comparing KeSPA players among each other and seeing if they still correspond to their Brood War hierarchy. The evidence is not Life, it's Bogus, by.Sun and Roro. And Bisu, Stork and Jaedong.
Sorry but you and some more people here are just wrong.
You guys are trying to make so much interpretation and fail to do the basics, which is read the article.
No, i don´t have any oppinion about the article, i do prefer to wait some years to see whats going on.
Just read and you will find the op doing a TL/DR
On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch.
No need to interpret anything.
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On March 11 2013 09:41 Taipoka wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 11:21 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
I just need to remind people of one very important fact here, because the argument I'm reading is way off centre. The article doesn't claim that players who switch to StarCraft II alongside KeSPA's official transition will do better than players who switched earlier or were never affiliated with KeSPA, it claims that players will maintain the same differential according to inter-KeSPA rankings. It claims that players like Nestea, MC and MVP had no results in Brood War, and that players who were good at Brood War would be as far above them in SC2 as they were in Brood War. This article isn't saying that "KeSPA players" will dominate SC2 when they switch over, it's saying that TaekBangLeeSsang will dominate SC2 when they switch over. And so on down the Brood War food chain until players like MVP are dominated by Light[Alive] or Zero and MC gets dominated by pretty much anyone including Frozean/CuteAngel
The proof of this article's blatant error is not found in comparing KeSPA players to the likes of Life, the proof is in comparing KeSPA players among each other and seeing if they still correspond to their Brood War hierarchy. The evidence is not Life, it's Bogus, by.Sun and Roro. And Bisu, Stork and Jaedong. Sorry but you and some more people here are just wrong. You guys are trying to make so much interpretation and fail to do the basics, which is read the article. No, i don´t have any oppinion about the article, i do prefer to wait some years to see whats going on. Just read and you will find the op doing a TL/DR Show nested quote +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:
What’s your point?
I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. No need to interpret anything.
Indeed? Let's read the article then. You can come along and correct me when I inevitably start 'failing' due to my interpretations and lack of basics.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:Note: This is an editorial. The opinions expressed by this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff (other than intrigue).
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/ElephantintheRoom.jpg) Graphics by SilverskYThis is not an article that will make me popular. This is not an article that will start negative but end with eloquent, poignant hope. But we have been skirting around this topic ever since Beta now, so I’ll just f**king say it: The competition in SC2 thus far has been a farce.The three GSL winners,  FruitDealer, NesTea, and  MC - objectively, they are remarkable players. FruitDealer is always a joy to behold, with his schizophrenic tech paths and compulsive risk-taking. Detective NesTea seems to find every sneaky probe red-handed and guilty-faced with its stupid little proxy pylon, like an Easter bunny that hides turds instead of eggs. The Kratoss MC just dispassionately stomps kids all day. All have shown themselves to be capable under pressure, and all have posted great results. We see the clear Brood War Advantage© in action here. Their mechanics are honed and their instincts unerringly accurate. If we are to believe Tasteless and Artosis, these ex-Brood War pros were all “sick good” at that game, and imported it over to SC2. They certainly were, compared to non-Koreans. But if we look at the actual numbers behind their Brood War careers, it immediately becomes obvious that they were nobodies in their own scene. Their records (source TLPD) from their Brood War days: - FruitDealer - 13-20 (39.39%) Mar 2006 - Feb 2008
- NesTea - 11-21 (34.38%) July 2007 - May 2009
- MC - 1-9 (10.00%) July 2008 - May 2010
These guys weren’t average. They weren’t almost average. They were bad. MC, the fearsome God of War "Kratoss", was instead known as “Flounder” and the “Suicide Toss”. And now this former fish Protoss is one of the dominating Korean StarCraft 2 players, allegedly the untouchable elite for our fledgling game. NesTea was the best of the bunch, making it to Brood War's equivalent of Code A a few times, though never making it through to "Code S". Between the three of them, there's about two dozen failed attempts to make it through "Code A" qualifiers. “But intrigue, that’s such a small sampl-” - TesteR, Code S, beta monster - 45-69 (39.47%) Nov 2003 - Jan 2010
 Bomber, ST ace, as well as #1 SC2 TLPD ELO - 1-2 (33.33%) Aug 2007 - June 2010
- SangHo, Code S - 43-63 (40.57%) Mar 2006 - Mar 2010
- TheWinD, Code S - 49-70 (41.18%) Oct 2000 - Aug 2007
- SuperNoVa, Code S – 13-22 (37.14%) Mar 2007 to Nov 2010
These guys were Brood War progamers for a long time and never shone. TesteR perhaps earned a bit of respect - the kind that sports fans have for their aging third string cornerback. His determination at being the perennial punching bag for better players in tournaments was actually pretty admirable, albeit in a sad way. His rare moments of solid play were celebrated, but it was no great loss to the competition when he left. More: - MMA, SlayerS ace - 2-3 (40.00%) Sept 2008 - May 2009
- Mvp, IM ace, GSLWC winner - 30-46 (39.47%) Apr 2008 - Aug 2010
- TheStC - 8-12 (40.00%) Mar 2007 - Apr 2008
MarineKing (Code S, two-time GSL finalist) Sept 2009 - June 2010
- LosirA (Code S, ro8) Apr 2009 - June 2010, Clide (Code S) Mar 2007- Dec 2008
With the exception of MVP, these players never made it to their respective teams’ A-teams. They are listed separately because their careers in Brood War were all pretty short for one reason or another, and it would be unfair to list them with the others. For some of these guys, the reason for quitting was StarCraft II. In any case, every player listed so far proved nothing in Brood War and are now tearing up SC2 one year later. Only two ex-BW pros have the distinction of being above average in their past careers:
Well, that's an awfully long list of ex-KeSPA players and their Brood War accomplishments for an article that is not about comparing players based on their internal KeSPA Brood War performances.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:"I don't know if it's okay to say this, but in the end pros play to make money."- MVPLow level players in Brood War make little or nothing on proteams. They help more successful players practice, and otherwise spend their time desperately clawing their way up in-house rankings for a shot at Proleague. There is no respect or fame, only the daily grind to maybe get better, maybe move up to A-team, and maybe maybe play a televised game. When GSL first came out and announced its 100,000,000 won prize, many of these struggling progamers found themselves making a business decision. MVP, on his move to SC2: Show nested quote +This is the first time I've mentioned it, but I come from a very poor family. The 100,000,000 won prize GSL came out with had a big influence on my switch. I wanted to win, and I wanted to make money. I wanted to help my family out with my winnings. With the establishment of SC2 proteams in Korea, high tier progamers are actually making a salary now. The TSL team house announced an annual salary of $31k for Fruitdealer, and $27k for Tester. Combined with prize winnings and fame, this isn't shabby at all. It's an improvement from their BW life nobody can blame them for taking. But: Money is the same reason S-class and even A-class Brood War pros don't switch.Celebrity Brood War players enjoy lucrative contracts with their sponsors, often telecom mega-corporations with money to spend. For example, STX's A-class powerhouses Calm 189-158 (54.47%) and Kal 235-182 (56.35%) make an annual salary of up to $80k-90k range if all incentives are met. CJ Entus's Terran ace Leta 170-120 (58.62%) earns a similar $85k. At the top, the earnings are downright disgusting. Flash 394-153 (72%) the Ultimate Weapon makes a staggering base salary of $200,000 yearly, not including tournament winnings. If he hits his incentive options, this figure can go up to $250,000. Why would he ever leave? Our own Jinro states that if Flash could be persuaded to switch to SC2, he "could probably take games from anyone within a week, for TvT at least.” And it wouldn't be surprising to anyone who knows anything about Brood War: as an amateur playing for fun, a 15 year old Flash one day decided to go pro (itself a tremendous feat, involving playing tests and trials) and win a title within a year. That's why seeing MC say that Flash would do well in SC2 is such a facepalm moment. KT Rolster’s HoeJJa 37-57 (39.36%) (comparable to the better players that have switched) complains during the progaming show Old Boy: “If you play 10 games in a day with Flash, you forget how to win a game. You forget how to win!! You can’t win! He’s that good.” Flash's fellow S-class players (this term actually means something in Brood War - SC2 tosses it around like candy) such as Jaedong 428-196 (68.59%) and Bisu 335-179 (65.18%) also inspire such remarks. They enjoy prime salaries playing a game where they won't suddenly be informed that barracks now require depots, or that spellcasters have lost their energy upgrades. There is arguably less luck involved too, since build order wins and easy-to-control-and-make 1a deathballs exist on a much smaller and more understood scale.
Here we have a passage about players making money. What's interesting to me is that long passage about Flash, followed by mention of Jaedong and Bisu, along with their winrates in KeSPA's Brood War matches. I say this is interesting, of course, because I labour under the confused 'basically failed' 'interpretation' that this is an article about internal KeSPA Brood War rankings.
I realise of course that this is merely a massive coincidence, and that these were random examples that could easily have been exchanged for Roro, Bogus and by.Sun. These were also S-class players when the term actually meant something, right? It's just silly pareidolia on my part, seeing patterns where there were none.
Although I wonder why he's comparing Hoejja to non-KeSPA players? I thought it was a reference to similar win records (KeSPA Brood War records are peppered throughout this article that has nothing to do with KeSPA's Brood War hierarchy, for some unfathomable reason) but since that has nothing to do with this article, maybe you can explain? Is Hoejja secretly performing ESF training behind the KT coaches' backs?
+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:Why do these specific players do so well?A Woongjin Stars coach states: Show nested quote +The gamer that possesses everything a coach wants is JD. Not only he has an amazing record, his mindset and attitude and everything else is flawless. For example, when a coach asks a gamer to practice over 100 games to win a game, many gamers complain. However. JD takes such a demand for granted - a natural way to improve himself. That's the difference of mindset. Compare this to GuemChi's 61-70 (46%) experience at an SC2 pro house: Show nested quote +I couldn’t get used to the practice atmosphere at Startale. I guess I was really used to practice during my time at Woongjin. I don’t mean that Startale’s style of practicing is bad. I just prefer a more defined, even strict, practice system but at Startale, it was pretty much on your own and everyone did what they wanted to do. Yeah, he's saying that Startale's style of practicing is bad. It seems to be a matter of effort - not only is Jaedong talented, but he puts in the work. Former BW pros in SC2 have the mechanics and game sense that they gained through practice, and this is their advantage. But unless they can keep it up in the less structured environment of SC2 houses, they will certainly fall behind when high-level BW pros bring over their work ethic and determination. In fact, the standards have already lowered for some big names: In his TSL interview, MVP states that he'd "rather play Starcraft 2 for fun, instead of [focus] on achievements". TesteR and FruitDealer left their first team oGs (where they were known as oGsSKS and oGsCool, respectively) only a couple months after beta to "enjoy SC2 as freely as possible." What does it say about the scene then, when a bottom-tier burnout from Brood War on a relaxed practice regimen still wins the GSL? Min of SlayerS talks about the team's practice schedule leading up to their Cinderella win in a recent interview: Show nested quote +Our team practices far longer than the other teams and we were very confident in our skills. Players were assigned a map and we would play 30-40 games a day on the maps. All members of the team also analyzed each of the opponent’s team members style and favorite strategies. 30-40 games is about the workload of an average Brood War pro, and this (along with BoxeR's eye for talent) is already enough for SlayerS to rock the scene. Do you want to know why S-class Brood War pros have to practice so much? Just think about what they are practicing for: matchup-specific "snipers" on other teams that have build orders (based on analysis from coaching staff) specifically to counter them all the time, a myriad of cheesy builds from inferior players intended to make the game as much of a dice roll as possible, or other high level pros. Imagine, facing another progamer who spends all his practice time in his best matchup on the one map you are expected to play on, analyzing all your games and replays – and you don’t even know what race he’s going to be playing. In Flash's case, he just rolls people sent out to snipe him, sometimes up to four of them in a row. It’s mind-boggling. Former bonjwa Oov 228-144 (61%) on Flash: Show nested quote +I think he has the ideal mindset as a progamer that I've been thinking about. There aren't many players who set strategic moves, and in the case of Flash, I think he's looking about 10 games ahead. He's different from players who receive quite a shock after losing one match... I like that part about Flash and I think his focus and adaptability is extremely good.
Ah, here's the passage about practice regimen, where we get quotes about StarCraft 2 champions like MVP having fun and Brood War legends like Stork being unrelenting training machines. Hey, this actually isn't about correlating players based on their KeSPA Brood War records (except the passages like "bottom-tiered burnout from Brood War"). Except of course that it has still chosen as examples Flash and Jaedong. I wonder why? I mean, if this is an article about KeSPA training regimen, surely any KeSPA player could have been used? Are Flash and Jaedong more KeSPA than other KeSPA players? Are Flash and Jaedong dominating SC2 more than other KeSPA players who switched over at the same time and are still on KeSPA teams? (Actually, now that Jaedong is on Evil Geniuses, I guess he isn't an elephant anymore, according to your reasoning, right? And Parting is?)
+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:The LegendsI know there's been a conspicuous omission of a few special ex-Brood War players. We have to treat them separately because: a. I can't bear listing their names alongside some of the ones earlier on, and b. It's important to see just how poorly they were doing at the twilight of their careers. Here are their career stats, which for someone as old-school as BoxeR goes back to 2000. - BoxeR – 353-275 (56.21%)
- NaDa - 439-290 (60.22%)
- July - 267-202 (56.93%)
Here are their stats starting from the beginning of last year (2010): Perhaps motivation flagged after they won too many tournaments, or maybe the prize money was too distracting. Perhaps they were simply out-skilled by those who had built their games upon the templates these three established. Excuses aside, NaDa was the only one of the three to still somewhat regularly participate in Proleague. BoxeR and July were relegated to playing MST and OSL preliminaries and getting eliminated. Also note the number of games BoxeR played over this time period - 12. That is basically inactive status for a progamer. For comparison, let's look at, say, MVP's stats over that period: Even still, these three guys certainly had no salary problems. NaDa for instance was known to command one of the highest salaries in all of progaming during his prime. Even without directly contributing to Proleague, their influence and wisdom within a team was likely worth the money. A prime example would be  SKT1's investment in mentors such as BoxeR and Oov to cultivate talents like Fantasy. For these guys, I would even go as far as saying that Artosis hype for them is justified. They are the Real Deal, and even Flash must acknowledge them as among the select few who shaped the game into what it is today. For them, SC2 is a new frontier to explore. It is their chance to once again play in front of their fans - a reason BoxeR has explicitly cited for his switch. These are guys who want to recapture the old glory of assembling a team of oxen and pioneering, in an age where their home is now dominated by supersoldiers.
It's a passage about old Brood War legends! I'm not sure why they spend all that time explaining how good they were in KeSPA's internal Brood War ranking since that has nothing to do with this article, and don't just say "these are no longer pros/semi-pros on KeSPA teams and have therefore lost the magic" but hey, you're the guy who isn't interpreting and hasn't basically failed, so I'm sure you'll enlighten us.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 12 2011 13:32 intrigue wrote:What’s your point?I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. Among this group there are a notable few that CRUSH any other players in terms of raw talent and/or work ethic and/or ability to learn. This knowledge cheapens any form of competition I see right now, no matter how much I try to enjoy the games. "But intrigue, BW stats are not everything! This information is all irrelevant!" I'll save my arguing energy for responding to your comments. A friend of mine wanted to take this part: <div class="bigbox"> Hot_Bid writes:I know what you're going to say. "It's a different game." I agree with you, somewhat. Look at the WarCraft 3 guys that are doing so well in the international scene, or at the Brood War careers of the guys winning the GSLs. There hasn't been a huge correlation between Brood War ability and SC2 ability among top tier SC2 pros right now. You see IM.Mvp and think he's the best Terran. But he's the only legitimate A-team pro (and a mediocre one at that) to transfer over. Nobody else has. Imagine there are hundreds of guys like him, with the same raw ability and mindset. They could be worse, or better, or exactly the same. Now imagine there are two, maybe three, that are just flat out better than Mvp at speed, precision, multitasking, and raw ability. Not just "a little better" but way better. But that's not what separates them from him. Flash and Jaedong, when motivated, have a mindset and work ethic that is unmatched by any other RTS professional. Their ability to focus and practice is not just "way better" than what Mvp is capable of, but orders of magnitudes better. Think the difference between Kobe and "average starter" on an NBA team. Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when. The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. </div> Was ThorZaIN vs oGsMC awesome? Fuck yeah! I loved watching those two play, the games were fantastic. But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too? Sorting by ELO, the only non-ex-Brood War players in the top 10 are Polt (#6), Alicia (#8) (who is going to be big, by the way), and sC (#10). Can you name other SC2 players you'd put money on? InCa? Maka? Rain (the only non-ex-BW pro to make it to a GSL finals)? My prediction: there will be another influx of MVP-level (A-class) pros into SC2 after deals fall through during the next August free agency. With the announcement of Heart of the Swarm for Spring 2012, it's likely they will decide to get a head start. Last year at MLG DC, I asked IdrA if he felt a sense of urgency to win a GSL before the top tier Brood War players switched. I was not sober enough to remember what he said. He sounded confident though, and I’m glad of it – foreigners are going to desperately need confidence if they are to keep up. Brood War's drawing power for live audiences has waned since the golden days, and I do not believe that the entire top tier of Brood War players will stay in that strange parallel world. They'll be here, a few at a time. Oh man, they’re coming.
Kids! Even Elly the ESPORTS Elephant says: ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/HawaiianPig/ellyESPORTS.png) by HawaiianPigNotes: Players are obviously not 100% defined by their career stats; there are ups and downs and extenuating circumstances. MC made it into the Bacchus 2009 OSL, TesteR was the guy that made it into a bunch of OSLs only to get eliminated early. NesTea was part of a strong 2v2 team with Reach. These are undeniably decent performances. TheWinD and RainBOw at the peaks of their careers were in their fair share of individual tourneys too, while players such as Lotze and MarineKing didn't get to play in that many qualifiers. Fact of the matter is that altogether these players have literally dozens and dozens of failed qualifications and prelims between them. Given enough time, perhaps their Brood War careers would have taken off. Generously speaking, I believe this to be very unlikely. Keep this in mind when considering these career stats. The opinions expressed in this article do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its (other) staff.
Hey, it's that passage you quoted at me! I wonder who 'the notable few who will CRUSH any other player.' meant? I'm sure it could be any KeSPA player, and the fact that the article is always explicitly referencing Flash and Jaedong (and occasionally Bisu) is just a massive coincidence!
Notes: Players are obviously not 100% defined by their career stats
I wonder why this was included, since obviously this article has nothing to do with comparing the players' Brood War careers.
Seriously though, this article is always talking about how bad the SC2 champions were at Brood War or how awesome Flash and Jaedong (specifically) are. They are not talking about KeSPA players in general. Look:
Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers.
Search/replace "Jaedong" for "Roro" and "Flash" for "Bogus" in this article if you still think you're right. It won't make sense at all.
This article is entirely about internal KeSPA Brood War rankings. It barely takes a breath to mention foreigners, WarCraft III players and players without Brood War experience, but it never rants against them like they do the ex-KeSPA players. This article is always comparing Brood War career stats and always measuring players by their Brood War achievements. It always assures us that Flash and Jaedong, specifically will be dominating SC2, along with other KeSPA players in general (because most other KeSPA players were better than Iron[kal] or Zergbong). Because that's what this article is about.
Before accusing people of not reading the article, give it some thought.
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^...Except the top players from BW haven't been CRUSHing people in a few short months like the article says. Only Flash and Fantasy has look like they had the potential thus far.
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nvm itll only go to a circular argumentation.
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EPT
. But at least some of them are doing well (go flash!)![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/TLFE/Kratos1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/GSL/FruitChequeTearyEyed.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/CodeS.jpg)
