EPTAlso, don't forget how it took time for Mvp and Nestea to rise to their dominant forms only to start declining once again. People are saying things like, oh gotta wait till HOTS. We'll just look at it this way, even if Kespa does not take GSL or another major tournament, you still have to give them another 3 months after HOTS to see reach a conclusion. After that, this topic will finally die.
The Elephant in the Room - Page 293
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Avs
Korea (North)857 Posts
Also, don't forget how it took time for Mvp and Nestea to rise to their dominant forms only to start declining once again. People are saying things like, oh gotta wait till HOTS. We'll just look at it this way, even if Kespa does not take GSL or another major tournament, you still have to give them another 3 months after HOTS to see reach a conclusion. After that, this topic will finally die. | ||
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SolidHaze
Canada44 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On December 22 2012 02:57 SolidHaze wrote: Then how do you explain that Life and Parting both won 3 major tournaments in half the little time the KeSPA players arrived at the scene?The hasn't is still in its infancy and there are still huge holes in its balance to make it a level playing field. I don't think I'm the only one who is getting tired of seeing two blobs collide in a fancy light show and one player is deemed the victor because he got his expo thirty second earlier. This game is driving me up the wall with the late game micro amounting to little more than prolonging am inevitable defeat. The reason we're seeing these top tier BW players not own the scene is that the skill cap is so low. Where is a player supposed to improve when major elements and units are being needed and tweaked monthly? You say supposedly the skill ceiling is so low that the former BW pros can't differentiate themselves, this 15 year old kid seems to have no trouble differentiating himself. Loses 0-2 to Flash because his keyboard drivers were wrong and he had no refresh rate, gets it fixed and 4-0's Flash making it seem so one sided it's not even funny any more. Edit: Also, to say that WoL is less balanced than BW is downright ridiculous, you can say BW has a lot that WoL hasn't, but balance isn't one of them. Snapshot of WoL winrates Snapshot of BW winrates Numbers say it all, the most balanced BW matchup (TvP) is less balanced than the least balanced WoL matchup (ZvP) | ||
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Azzur
Australia6253 Posts
On December 24 2012 22:42 SiskosGoatee wrote: Then how do you explain that Life and Parting both won 3 major tournaments in half the little time the KeSPA players arrived at the scene? You say supposedly the skill ceiling is so low that the former BW pros can't differentiate themselves, this 15 year old kid seems to have no trouble differentiating himself. Loses 0-2 to Flash because his keyboard drivers were wrong and he had no refresh rate, gets it fixed and 4-0's Flash making it seem so one sided it's not even funny any more. This is the BW-elitist style of thinking: - If the elephants dominate, SC2 is a weak game! - If not, SC2 has a low skill cap! | ||
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1raxexpand
United States165 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On December 29 2012 03:05 1raxexpand wrote: Please, the 'Zerg problem' is relatively minor compared to the 'Terran problem' in BW. WoL is a paradigm of balance if you compare it to BW.It is also unfortunate that the Kespa transition happened at the height of the Zerg problem. Bogus could of won the last GSL we'll never know. Funny part is, the guy who beat Bogus, Hyun, is a an elephant, he was touted as showing the validity of this hypothesis when he first qualified for code A, and then he was dropped off by the elephantists faster than you can say ForGG when the failed to meet the expectations, now that he finally made a finals, people have completely forgotten that he's still an elephant. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
On December 24 2012 22:42 SiskosGoatee wrote: Then how do you explain that Life and Parting both won 3 major tournaments in half the little time the KeSPA players arrived at the scene? You say supposedly the skill ceiling is so low that the former BW pros can't differentiate themselves, this 15 year old kid seems to have no trouble differentiating himself. Loses 0-2 to Flash because his keyboard drivers were wrong and he had no refresh rate, gets it fixed and 4-0's Flash making it seem so one sided it's not even funny any more. Edit: Also, to say that WoL is less balanced than BW is downright ridiculous, you can say BW has a lot that WoL hasn't, but balance isn't one of them. Snapshot of WoL winrates Snapshot of BW winrates Numbers say it all, the most balanced BW matchup (TvP) is less balanced than the least balanced WoL matchup (ZvP) Numbers do say it all. In the first graph Snapshot of WoL winrates we see one race consistently at the bottom and another race consistently at the top. The short term changes are direct results of changes made to the game. In the other graph you posted, Snapshot of BW winrates, we see every race taking turns at the top and bottom with no changes made to the game. IMO, WOL was thoughtlessly balanced around overall win rates. BW has much better balance with regards to the early, mid, and late game. Which produces more exiting and interesting game play, as well as superior overall balance. In the last few weeks we've seen KESPA players crush the best non-kespa players, in dominant fashion. They are simply out macro'd, out micro'd, out thought, and overall..... out-played. Kespa players have been playing WOL 1/3 of the time as the people they are rolling over. I think this article was spot on, current events were forecasted with amazing clarity in the OP. It's only going to swing more into the KESPA players favor as things continue. All but a handful of non-kespa players will be swept from major competitions. They are truly on an entirely higher skill level than any player that has come from outside. | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On January 07 2013 09:00 Reborn8u wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 24 2012 22:42 SiskosGoatee wrote: Then how do you explain that Life and Parting both won 3 major tournaments in half the little time the KeSPA players arrived at the scene? You say supposedly the skill ceiling is so low that the former BW pros can't differentiate themselves, this 15 year old kid seems to have no trouble differentiating himself. Loses 0-2 to Flash because his keyboard drivers were wrong and he had no refresh rate, gets it fixed and 4-0's Flash making it seem so one sided it's not even funny any more. Edit: Also, to say that WoL is less balanced than BW is downright ridiculous, you can say BW has a lot that WoL hasn't, but balance isn't one of them. Snapshot of WoL winrates Snapshot of BW winrates Numbers say it all, the most balanced BW matchup (TvP) is less balanced than the least balanced WoL matchup (ZvP) Numbers do say it all. In the first graph Snapshot of WoL winrates we see one race consistently at the bottom and another race consistently at the top. The short term changes are direct results of changes made to the game. In the other graph you posted, Snapshot of BW winrates, we see every race taking turns at the top and bottom with no changes made to the game. IMO, WOL was thoughtlessly balanced around overall win rates. BW has much better balance with regards to the early, mid, and late game. Which produces more exiting and interesting game play, as well as superior overall balance. In the last few weeks we've seen KESPA players crush the best non-kespa players, in dominant fashion. They are simply out macro'd, out micro'd, out thought, and overall..... out-played. Kespa players have been playing WOL 1/3 of the time as the people they are rolling over. I think this article was spot on, current events were forecasted with amazing clarity in the OP. It's only going to swing more into the KESPA players favor as things continue. All but a handful of non-kespa players will be swept from major competitions. They are truly on an entirely higher skill level than any player that has come from outside. Where exactly? | ||
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dailybargainshop840
United States5 Posts
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Azzur
Australia6253 Posts
In the imaginary room with the imaginary elephant! | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
In the U/D's where none out of 7 advanced of course. I also saw a pink unicorn in that room, as I recall she created the entire universe, remarkable woman, did you know that she knows a man with noodly appendages? | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 11 2013 15:05 Emzeeshady wrote: Chillax romeo, they're just blow even footing and with time they will no doubt reach even footing or maybe even get better. But the articles expections imply that within 'the latency of a few months' all top SC2 players would be former-BW KeSPA players. That flat out did not happen and won't happen.I like to look at this article every once and awhile to make me laugh at how hilariously inaccurate it was. I can't believe anyone actually thought that BW pros would dominate SC2. I wonder if they will continue playing SC2 if they keep getting beat down like this. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On January 11 2013 18:46 SiskosGoatee wrote: Chillax romeo, they're just blow even footing and with time they will no doubt reach even footing or maybe even get better. But the articles expections imply that within 'the latency of a few months' all top SC2 players would be former-BW KeSPA players. That flat out did not happen and won't happen. I think people are just gloating now because there were some absolutely insufferable BW elitists incessantly plaguing the LR threads with talk of a Kespa revolution at the top level of SC2, how all the established ESF players that SC2 fans have come to know and love are all essentially dirt beneath the boots of the Kespa elite. With that said, I agree that with a significant amount of time, the skill distinction between Kespa and ESF players will disappear. It's just sad how many people actually bought into this silly article. | ||
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HanSomPa
United States87 Posts
On January 12 2013 06:57 HolyArrow wrote: I think people are just gloating now because there were some absolutely insufferable BW elitists incessantly plaguing the LR threads with talk of a Kespa revolution at the top level of SC2, how all the established ESF players that SC2 fans have come to know and love are all essentially dirt beneath the boots of the Kespa elite. With that said, I agree that with a significant amount of time, the skill distinction between Kespa and ESF players will disappear. It's just sad how many people actually bought into this silly article. Well I bought into it because it made sense. At the same time I was still very skeptical since SCII mechanics mitigate many advantages that BW pros would have over GSL pros. Fact is, SCII is a bit of a joke at this point. Not only is HotS is coming out to screw with WoL, but the metagame has remained essentially the same for almost a year now. I stopped watching GSL because it's the same old thing over and over nowadays. HotS will provide a fresh sta for everyone and that's really what I'm looking at to prove whether this article will prove true or not. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 13 2013 05:00 HanSomPa wrote: No, the article is categorically false and inaccurate. You claim advantages are mitigated, skill ceiling is lower. Again, then how do you explain Leenock being in the finals of two premier tournaments in a row? And this isn't an OSL where you get seeded into the Ro16 if you get to the finals once, this was a 72 player elimination bracket. The mechanics of WoL allow for this 17 year old to differentiate himself just fine.Well I bought into it because it made sense. At the same time I was still very skeptical since SCII mechanics mitigate many advantages that BW pros would have over GSL pros. Fact is, SCII is a bit of a joke at this point. Not only is HotS is coming out to screw with WoL, but the metagame has remained essentially the same for almost a year now. I stopped watching GSL because it's the same old thing over and over nowadays. HotS will provide a fresh sta for everyone and that's really what I'm looking at to prove whether this article will prove true or not. Leenock is just better at this game than these vaunted BW pros, as is Parting, Life, ViOLet and most of the elite players before the switch. Maybe Flash will get there in time, but that's not what the article said, it said 'latency of a few months', a few months have past. And let's face it, BW pros aren't getting a lot better at the moment since the 'lower bracket' incident. The amount of KeSPA pros in code S is declining, not rising. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On January 13 2013 05:00 HanSomPa wrote: Well I bought into it because it made sense. At the same time I was still very skeptical since SCII mechanics mitigate many advantages that BW pros would have over GSL pros. Fact is, SCII is a bit of a joke at this point. Not only is HotS is coming out to screw with WoL, but the metagame has remained essentially the same for almost a year now. I stopped watching GSL because it's the same old thing over and over nowadays. HotS will provide a fresh sta for everyone and that's really what I'm looking at to prove whether this article will prove true or not. I strongly disagree that it made any sense, any sense that it seemed to make was probably confirmation bias or something. My personal opinion was that BW and SC2 were different games, and BW fans were putting too much emphasis on the idea that BW players are somehow so mechanically adept that they can just dominate a different game in a few months. Just because the games are in the same genre doesn't mean that one can just assume that players from one game will dominate established veterans of another game just because the former game is considered more mechanically demanding. They are different games, and though they have their similarities, there are differences in the skills that they emphasize. I am completely unsurprised seeing the way things are playing out. You say that HotS will really show if the article will be proven true or not, but the article has already been proven false. It's been a few months and the BW elite are far from stomping on the "farcical" competition that this article spoke of. Obviously, I don't know what the future has in store. Maybe the BW pros will suddenly blossom when HotS provides a more fresh start for everyone, and they'll start looking extremely strong against even the top ESF players. The point here is that the statements this article made were so bold, audacious, and ridiculous, it set such a laughably unattainable standard for Kespa performance in the SC2 scene that it's been extremely easy to prove wrong. Now, we're seeing people fall back on saying "just wait longer, it'll happen", and maybe it will (though I have my doubts), but the claims this article made were borderline delusional. | ||
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HanSomPa
United States87 Posts
Again, then how do you explain Leenock being in the finals of two premier tournaments in a row? No, the article is categorically false and inaccurate. You claim advantages are mitigated, skill ceiling is lower. That's how I would explain it mate. Now let's not get testy about it either. I'm not biased or have a side, but I look at everything with a fair amount of skepticism. Tell me, what kind of revolutionary play did Leenock or Life introduce? Exactly, nothing. They have simply exploited the strength of the Zerg race to the fullest. Now, I'm not saying they are bad players, they are great players. Amazing players, but we do not see the sort of innovation we do in Brood War. In Brood War, the meta developed without constant Blizzard interference. Nowadays, the meta develops because of Blizzard interference. Now, I don't believe that BW pros are any better at the moment. However, I do think that this article has nailed a few things down and that is that BW pros have a lot more experience and better mindset about being a progamer. This is why the article makes sense to me. Because those things do impact your level of play. And this isn't an OSL where you get seeded into the Ro16 if you get to the finals once, this was a 72 player elimination bracket. The mechanics of WoL allow for this 17 year old to differentiate himself just fine. How is Life or Leenock any different from any other Zerg out there? The only difference is age. To me, that doesn't say much. That's like telling me that some 17 year old rapper who made millions is just as great if not greater than Tupac or Rakim. No, Tupac and Rakim were pioneers, revolutionaries. Just because someone new is young and makes lots of money doesn't make them great. Sure, they have talent, but they do not leave the same impression in my mind. Leenock is just better at this game than these vaunted BW pros, as is Parting, Life, ViOLet and most of the elite players before the switch. This is the problem with the masses. Not just you or me, but so many others on this thread and forum jump to conclusions so fast. And you wonder what's wrong with the media and the internet today? Maybe Flash will get there in time, but that's not what the article said, it said 'latency of a few months', a few months have past. And let's face it, BW pros aren't getting a lot better at the moment since the 'lower bracket' incident. The amount of KeSPA pros in code S is declining, not rising. Statistics need time, you and everyone else need to stop jumping bandwagons. Like I said, the article may have been off in their estimates but they made a very good point. There were 300 top level competitors who basically played a harder version of SCII. Yeah, I would make the same comment as well. Some good analogies for this are,Sports.Rugby and Football. Similar, but not the same. Top tier rugby players are not automatically top tier football players. On the other hand, Business. A top level accountant can definitely go into economics, finance, or business management and expect to do just as well there. The fields are just too similar on the highest level of business. So yes, this article does make sense. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen. I strongly disagree that it made any sense, any sense that it seemed to make was probably confirmation bias or something. My personal opinion was that BW and SC2 were different games, and BW fans were putting too much emphasis on the idea that BW players are somehow so mechanically adept that they can just dominate a different game in a few months. They are not completely different games and they are not just in the same genre. They are literally the same game with many different adjustments. It's not like CoD and CS. It's more like CS 1.6 CSS and CS:GO. All three iterations are very different but focus on the same skills. Just because the games are in the same genre doesn't mean that one can just assume that players from one game will dominate established veterans of another game just because the former game is considered more mechanically demanding. I bet any KeSPA veteran will absolutely crush you 1v1 in SCII. The fact that they are already Code B, Code A players means that they are on the very top level of the game. By that merit alone the article is already at least partially true. The games are similar enough that Top tier BW players will be top tier SCII players. What is the main problem with this article? The claim that top tier BW players will dominate SCII in a laughable fashion. Yes, it is a bit of an outrageous claim, but there's literally been only about half a year... too soon to make any conclusions. They are different games, and though they have their similarities, there are differences in the skills that they emphasize. I am completely unsurprised seeing the way things are playing out. In that case you shouldn't be bashing this article. It's funny how people are so quick to dish out "exceptions to the rule." We all know how much work BW pros put to keep themselves competitive. There are dozens of different strategies because of the maps, builds, meta/anti-meta builds. On top of that, the constant Blizzard meddling isn't helping anyone. Way too many people are making assumptions and excuses for this or that. Fact is, we need a controlled environment to prove whether this article is true or not. Either a few more months to a year in order to get reliable statistics, or a fresh new start for everyone on HotS. That's as close to a controlled environment as we can get. Like I said before, I don't necesserily agree with this article. I for on did not believe that KeSPA pros would overtake the GSL by the storm. But, I did take this article seriously because it made a very good point. BW pros will be good at SCII. Ring ding ding, they are good. I for one believe that many of them are easily GM level which is already enough to prove that BW and SCII are similar enough that much of the skill transfers over. So yes, KeSPA will probably become at least a significant force in the next 1-2 years. How is that conclusion not reasonable and logical enough to claim? | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On January 13 2013 08:39 HanSomPa wrote: They've got better macro, better decisions, better micro, why can't KeSPA players have all that?That's how I would explain it mate. Now let's not get testy about it either. I'm not biased or have a side, but I look at everything with a fair amount of skepticism. Tell me, what kind of revolutionary play did Leenock or Life introduce? Exactly, nothing. They have simply exploited the strength of the Zerg race to the fullest. Now, I'm not saying they are bad players, they are great players. Amazing players, but we do not see the sort of innovation we do in Brood War. In Brood War, the meta developed without constant Blizzard interference. Nowadays, the meta develops because of Blizzard interference. Simple, leenock and life are better players. And to say that both haven't innovated highly is ludicrous, both are very stylistic players with a style that is instantly recognisable. Life basically goes 10pool 80% of his ZvZ's almost at a time where 15p or 15h in ZvZ was standard and showed how he can make 10p not fall behind against 15h. Life's high use of zergling counter attacks in ZvT was also innovative. Leenock has been pioneering a couple of very creative cheeses as well as innovating the double spire double upgraded mutalisk ZvT style. Now, I don't believe that BW pros are any better at the moment. However, I do think that this article has nailed a few things down and that is that BW pros have a lot more experience and better mindset about being a progamer. This is why the article makes sense to me. Because those things do impact your level of play. Well, then why didn't it happen? If they have a better mindset, why aren't they dominating, why aren't they even breaking even at the moment? Flash' GSL record has been sub average I have to say.How is Life or Leenock any different from any other Zerg out there? The only difference is age. To me, that doesn't say much. That's like telling me that some 17 year old rapper who made millions is just as great if not greater than Tupac or Rakim. No, Tupac and Rakim were pioneers, revolutionaries. Just because someone new is young and makes lots of money doesn't make them great. Sure, they have talent, but they do not leave the same impression in my mind. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Look at this, at the actual Korean stacked tournaments. You got these guys: Life, Leenock, Parting, Taeja, HerO, achieving finals after finals. You seem to live in the impression that every Zerg achieves finals after finals, this isn't about race, Parting also achieves finals after finals, so does Taeja, Flash does not however. This is the problem with the masses. Not just you or me, but so many others on this thread and forum jump to conclusions so fast. And you wonder what's wrong with the media and the internet today? Statistics need time, you and everyone else need to stop jumping bandwagons. Like I said, the article may have been off in their estimates but they made a very good point. There were 300 top level competitors who basically played a harder version of SCII. Yeah, I would make the same comment as well. Some good analogies for this are,Sports.Rugby and Football. Similar, but not the same. Top tier rugby players are not automatically top tier football players. You don't honestly believe you can use analogies of finance and rugby to argue for or against this article do you?On the other hand, Business. A top level accountant can definitely go into economics, finance, or business management and expect to do just as well there. The fields are just too similar on the highest level of business. So yes, this article does make sense. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen No, that it is not true has already been seen. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On January 13 2013 08:39 HanSomPa wrote: They are not completely different games and they are not just in the same genre. They are literally the same game with many different adjustments. It's not like CoD and CS. It's more like CS 1.6 CSS and CS:GO. All three iterations are very different but focus on the same skills. . "literally the same game" is a very bold claim to make, and I disagree. They're the same genre but a completely different game. The adjustments that you speak of are exactly what make them so different. If X and Y are initially identical, then you proceed to change Y in many profound ways, they are no longer identical at all. I bet any KeSPA veteran will absolutely crush you 1v1 in SCII. The fact that they are already Code B, Code A players means that they are on the very top level of the game. By that merit alone the article is already at least partially true. The games are similar enough that Top tier BW players will be top tier SCII players. What is the main problem with this article? The claim that top tier BW players will dominate SCII in a laughable fashion. Yes, it is a bit of an outrageous claim, but there's literally been only about half a year... too soon to make any conclusions. I fail to see what my personal SC2 ability has to do with anything... when I say "established veteran" I don't mean an average joe player like me (I'm not even good, I hardly play, I stopped laddering around low Diamond). I was solely referring to the ESF players. The article is not partially true at all. It doesn't claim that Kespa players will be Code B/Code A players thanks to their prodigious skill in BW. It claims that Kespa players will destroy the ESF elite after a few months of practice, and that has not happened. There is no "partially true" here. It has already been proven false. You keep ignoring how the crux of the article is the claim that ESF players are simply so outclassed in pure ability and work ethic by the Kespa players that they'll be getting dominated by them in a few months. That has already not happened. In that case you shouldn't be bashing this article. It's funny how people are so quick to dish out "exceptions to the rule." We all know how much work BW pros put to keep themselves competitive. There are dozens of different strategies because of the maps, builds, meta/anti-meta builds. On top of that, the constant Blizzard meddling isn't helping anyone. Way too many people are making assumptions and excuses for this or that. Fact is, we need a controlled environment to prove whether this article is true or not. Either a few more months to a year in order to get reliable statistics, or a fresh new start for everyone on HotS. That's as close to a controlled environment as we can get. Like I said before, I don't necesserily agree with this article. I for on did not believe that KeSPA pros would overtake the GSL by the storm. But, I did take this article seriously because it made a very good point. BW pros will be good at SCII. Ring ding ding, they are good. I for one believe that many of them are easily GM level which is already enough to prove that BW and SCII are similar enough that much of the skill transfers over. So yes, KeSPA will probably become at least a significant force in the next 1-2 years. How is that conclusion not reasonable and logical enough to claim? The funny part is that I'm agreeing with you for most of these two paragraphs. I said myself: "Obviously, I don't know what the future has in store. Maybe the BW pros will suddenly blossom when HotS provides a more fresh start for everyone, and they'll start looking extremely strong against even the top ESF players... Now, we're seeing people fall back on saying "just wait longer, it'll happen", and maybe it will (though I have my doubts), but the claims this article made were borderline delusional." So yes, I think that it's very reasonable to expect that Kespa will become a significant force in the future. In fact, I'd even say that you'd be stupid to think otherwise. However, I'm confused as to why you think I shouldn't be bashing the article. I'm not following the points that you're making about how BW pros put tons of work into keeping themselves competitive. If anything, the fact that zero Kespa players made it through the Up/Downs despite their work ethic tells me that ESF players work just as hard, which contradicts this article's claim about how Kespa players' work ethics are what will allow them to shoot ahead of ESF players in skill in a short amount of time. | ||
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