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This thread really amuses me, can't wait for the next forGG or Hyun games
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On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense.
First off, stay away from the ad hominem attacks.
Now, I must be "dense" too, because you did NOT point out that he was an amateur. You implied that he was bad at BW, and hence did not have a liquipedia page. Nowhere did you mention that he was an amateur, or anything of the sort. Making an ambiguous statement and then calling somebody "dense" for misinterpreting it is really illogical.
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On January 11 2012 04:02 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense. First off, stay away from the ad hominem attacks. Now, I must be "dense" too, because you did NOT point out that he was an amateur. You implied that he was bad at BW, and hence did not have a liquipedia page. Nowhere did you mention that he was an amateur, or anything of the sort. Making an ambiguous statement and then calling somebody "dense" for misinterpreting it is really illogical.
You're a clever fellow and a great white knight. Thank you conjuring up the error of my ways.
+ Show Spoiler +Ingredients to white knight. Be smarter than fellow you're defending. Do not follow conversation of posts, or mistakenly forget an earlier point. Jump in out of context, therefore missing the point yourself. Be enraged, defend the dense one (or actually yourself)!
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Why is this garbage article being topped? Because forgg got SMASHED? lol. I love pro sc2, so entertaining. Please bring on some more 'bw' pros.
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On January 11 2012 04:10 stratmatt wrote:
Why is this garbage article being topped? Because forgg got SMASHED? lol. I love pro sc2, so entertaining. Please bring on some more 'bw' pros.
yeah... it was being revived when fin entered the scene because "he would just roflstomp everyone", and now a lot fo people are taking their revenge 
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Haha, dwelling into this thread is always something amusing.
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One player not immediately performing optimally does not disprove the rule
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On January 11 2012 04:16 Ikonn wrote:
One player not immediately performing optimally does not disprove the rule
+1, its not like Flash is a lot better than fOrGG right?
oh wait...
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On January 11 2012 04:16 Ikonn wrote:
One player not immediately performing optimally does not disprove the rule
He's right. This thread is still young, give it some time to evolve.
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ForGG disappointed today, to me it looked like a lack of SC2 experience catching up to him. There was still some flashes of brilliance, notably in g1 of him vs leenock.
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On January 11 2012 04:10 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:02 SeaSwift wrote:On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense. First off, stay away from the ad hominem attacks. Now, I must be "dense" too, because you did NOT point out that he was an amateur. You implied that he was bad at BW, and hence did not have a liquipedia page. Nowhere did you mention that he was an amateur, or anything of the sort. Making an ambiguous statement and then calling somebody "dense" for misinterpreting it is really illogical. You're a clever fellow and a great white knight. Thank you conjuring up the error of my ways. + Show Spoiler +Ingredients to white knight. Be smarter than fellow you're defending. Do not follow conversation of posts, or mistakenly forget an earlier point. Jump in out of context, therefore missing the point yourself. Be enraged, defend the dense one (or actually yourself)!
13 posts and throwing insults left and right? I like where this is going.
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On January 11 2012 04:18 SabreUK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:16 Ikonn wrote:
One player not immediately performing optimally does not disprove the rule +1, its not like Flash is a lot better than fOrGG right? oh wait...
That time Flash went 80-1 versus Forgg in practice was a farce!
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On January 11 2012 04:10 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:02 SeaSwift wrote:On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense. First off, stay away from the ad hominem attacks. Now, I must be "dense" too, because you did NOT point out that he was an amateur. You implied that he was bad at BW, and hence did not have a liquipedia page. Nowhere did you mention that he was an amateur, or anything of the sort. Making an ambiguous statement and then calling somebody "dense" for misinterpreting it is really illogical. You're a clever fellow and a great white knight. Thank you conjuring up the error of my ways. + Show Spoiler +Ingredients to white knight. Be smarter than fellow you're defending. Do not follow conversation of posts, or mistakenly forget an earlier point. Jump in out of context, therefore missing the point yourself. Be enraged, defend the dense one (or actually yourself)!
I have no idea what you are saying here. If I mistakenly forgot an earlier point you made, repeat it. I could not find it in your post history.
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So uh... at this point who cares. Starcraft BW is a very fun game to watch. Starcraft 2 is a very fun game to watch. Enjoy as you see fit.
Peace.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 11 2012 03:54 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:31 RinconH wrote:On January 11 2012 03:00 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 02:17 FLuE wrote:On January 11 2012 02:09 babylon wrote:On January 11 2012 02:01 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play. Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none. I see SC2/BW more like fencing/kendo than baseball/basketball, where a lot of things translate but not all, and being amazing at one definitely doesn't mean you'll be amazing at the other (but you'll be good at least!). War3's like aikido or something in that comparison, rofl. Anyways, prepare for Hype Train #2 if Hyun takes even one game off Taeja. Not every example of athlete/sport always works. Problem on this board is sometimes everyone takes everything so literal. The idea though is that if you are one of those select people in the world that have the combination of incredible work ethic with natural ability in a certain field, I'd expect that person to be able to master anything remotely close to that field of work. Music would be similar. I'd expect a great guitar player with amazing natural ability(dexterity) and work ethic to be able to play a variety of instruments if they wanted. It isn't an insult to the difficulty of those other instruments, like if a great guitar player all the sudden picked up a base guitar and rocked out that it means all base players are less skilled. The whole point of this thread just again, seems obvious. To the point where I don't get how there can be 200 pages worth of talk about something like this. I mean can I basically TL;DR this entire thread with : Players that are great at RTS games and work hard will be great at other RTS games. Ok...? Duh? I'll give you a serious reply. You're making a common flaw. But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. This is the key quote in your statement, you don't know how similar these games are. Assume someone is #1 at one thing. You're assuming that person will be comparably great at another field that has a high, but not high enough percentage of similarities. You used Jim Brown, saying he could play any mainstream sport (you using a specific example, probably causes you receiving specifically literal replies). I took Michael Jordan, a basketball player, the #3 sport in the USA, and said he sarcastically he'd be a great baseball player, #2 sport in the USA. Obviously, he tried and failed. Now let's say BW and SC2 overlap at a very high percentage, in terms of required variables to be great. The key is how high does that number have to be? Words like "these games are similar" or "these games are less similar" don't mean much of anything. Is it quantifiable, and does it have to be 100%, 99%, 97%, 95%, 70%, etc? Once you get below a hypothetical number which is likely to skew towards the high 90-some percentile, then it's quite possible that your supposed Flash-type BW player, no longer has enough to be a top player in the second suppposed game. He may end up #10 in SC2! Who's #10 right now in SC2? Who really cares, because he hasn't won a GSL probably, and there's another 10 guys just as good as him. It's less likely the more similar the games, and the greater the talent (i.e. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu), however you simply don't know the composite of variables required. You are making assertions, arguing with others doing the same. A scenario like the following could play out: Take the #7 player in BW, he could have skills that aren't useful in BW, but useful in SC2. He may become the greatest SC2 player. Meanwhile, the #1-6 players in BW, maybe only wind up spread amongst the top 32 Code S players, but nothing that really puts them head and shoulders above the field, because what them that great in BW is no longer applicable in SC2. Compare apples to apples. It's ridiculous for you to assume Kobe Bryant could be a top soccer pro. He's not competing against some good college players, he's competing against the hungriest, most talented people at what they do. It's unlikely he has a work ethic edge over the very best ones. Now how much of his innate basketball talent needs to transfer over to be comparably great at soccer? It should be obvious that the number has to be pretty high. All the pro BW players are going to be better than 99.99% of people who touch the game. They'll literally be Korean Grandmasters. However, they're competing with a select few great players who have excelled at SC2. These people have proven they have the characteristics that make them great SC2 players. The more time SC2 has to introduce and develop it's own non-pro-BW background talent (e.g. Leenock, Maru, Creator, etc.), the less likely it is for top BW to completely dominate the top SC2. You don't know, so saying things like I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious followed by So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? is ridiculous. You just don't know. If you actually could predict things like this with such certainty, you could easily make tens of millions of dollars over the next ten years, and eventually venture into hundreds of millions in another field. You can't compare the difference between Basketball and Baseball to the difference of SC1/SC2. Basketball and Baseball have completely different skill sets. The skill sets that will make you good at SC1 (Multitasking, strategic thinking, APM, poise under pressure) are directly transferrable to SC2. And, for the record, if Michael Jordan has taken all his natural talent + competitive drive and trained at Baseball since highschool is probably would be the GOAT for Baseball. I'd love to see Lebron James play tight-end in the NFL.... You failed to understand my post. Thank to guy who PM'd me, for pointing out this flaw in critical thinking that people who read my post, are continuing to make. Hope some of you don't continue to follow this absurd logic flaw. If I were some of you, I'd worry about using my brain in ways that differentiate me from an elephant, rather than the "Elephant in the Room".
That is seriously the best post that I have ever read on Teamliquid or any other forum site, and I have visited many. The way it perfectly fits into this thread, man... Thank you, you just made my day <3
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
just wanted to drop by and say that i am totally unfazed! and honestly really perplexed that people still have the shamelessness to jump in here for 'revenge'. how many times have you guys done that and gotten proven wrong all over again? never learn
favorite nitpicky quote in last few pages: "Intrigue is not, at least entirely correct"
notes:
- forgg was approximately MVP-level in bw. quite good, but there are better. i expect a similar level of performance, probably a bit better.
- losing to leenock isn't bad at all. i wish sc2 players had some metric to understand what a monumental feat reaching iccup A during korean hours at age 13 is. i could try to explain but i don't really feel like it. takeaway point: the kid is good. i mean yeah he was past gsl finalist.
- you do not understand starcraft at all if you think "dominating" means never dropping games. MC obviously stepped up his game today by taking out leenock too despite my low opinion of him. good for him! it would be too boring if he faded to mediocrity as quickly as i expected.
ultimately, it doesn't even matter at all what happens from this point on - the skill level of the scene has already increased so massively since this article that i already feel completely vindicated. if you don't think the games 1 year ago were, well... (you know the f word) then i don't know what to say to you! people don't even mention foreigners anymore in this article haha, that's how much things have changed! have a great day citizens
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On January 11 2012 04:26 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:10 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 04:02 SeaSwift wrote:On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense. First off, stay away from the ad hominem attacks. Now, I must be "dense" too, because you did NOT point out that he was an amateur. You implied that he was bad at BW, and hence did not have a liquipedia page. Nowhere did you mention that he was an amateur, or anything of the sort. Making an ambiguous statement and then calling somebody "dense" for misinterpreting it is really illogical. You're a clever fellow and a great white knight. Thank you conjuring up the error of my ways. + Show Spoiler +Ingredients to white knight. Be smarter than fellow you're defending. Do not follow conversation of posts, or mistakenly forget an earlier point. Jump in out of context, therefore missing the point yourself. Be enraged, defend the dense one (or actually yourself)! I have no idea what you are saying here. If I mistakenly forgot an earlier point you made, repeat it. I could not find it in your post history.
It's not in post #14.
For lunch, I'm in the mood for octopus. Peace.
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On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense. The proper response to my question would've been, Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:34 Megaliskuu wrote:
He wasn't pro, he was A level (on iccup) which is very solid, considering kid was like 13. continuing with absurdly high level trolling, which to be fair to you, Megaliskuu isn't actually trolling either.
Here's what you said
In response to
I like how everyone still ignores the fact that leenock was very good at BW...
Only an idiot would assume that you are actually defending Leenock in this case because if you really were supporting that guys point then your just a hypocrite, because you are accusing me of saying the same thing as you, when in reality by your reasoning you were actually doing the same thing I did, except to that guy.
If you want to make the point that I'm dense, then you're only proving that you're the denser one.
Of course if you weren't actually defending Leenock's BW potential/skill...then I was correct.
So either way, you're an idiot.
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On January 11 2012 00:00 figq wrote:One more thing, we could use the current GSL ranking top 10. It's not the best ranking, but it will do. 7 BW progamers, 3 others. 1 Mvp BW
2 NesTea BW
3 MC BW
4 MMA BW
5 Polt ---
6 MKP BW
7 July BW
8 TOP ---
9 NaDa BW
10 Jjakji ---
This post is pointless in the thread.. the thread isnt about BW players as a whole, its arguing that "modern" BW players are so much better than everyone else, they can literally switch to SC2 this week, and win Code S without losing a match within a month.
Face it, even as good as Jaedong or Flash is, if they suddenly started playing SC2 next week, they still wont win Code S until 3-4 tries. Its a whole new game.
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On January 11 2012 04:31 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense. The proper response to my question would've been, On January 11 2012 03:34 Megaliskuu wrote:
He wasn't pro, he was A level (on iccup) which is very solid, considering kid was like 13. continuing with absurdly high level trolling, which to be fair to you, Megaliskuu isn't actually trolling either. Here's what you said In response to Show nested quote +I like how everyone still ignores the fact that leenock was very good at BW... Only an idiot would assume that you are actually defending Leenock in this case because if you really were supporting that guys point then your just a hypocrite, because you are accusing me of saying the same thing as you, when in reality by your reasoning you were actually doing the same thing I did, except to that guy. If you want to make the point that I'm dense, then you're only proving that you're the denser one. Of course if you weren't actually defending Leenock's BW potential/skill...then I was correct. So either way, you're an idiot.
God damn it, you're right! I am an idiot. Why didn't I realize that's where the train of thought started? FML, I'm the dense, ME! Seriously though, I think I to search for a place that serves octopus, I'm starving.
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EPT
