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On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
ultimately, it doesn't even matter at all what happens from this point on - the skill level of the scene has already increased so massively since this article that i already feel completely vindicated. if you don't think the games 1 year ago were, well... (you know the f word) then i don't know what to say to you! people don't even mention foreigners anymore in this article haha, that's how much things have changed! have a great day citizens
Why do you feel vindicated? That wasn't the point. I don't think that anybody expected the skill of the scene to stagnate on the level of one year ago. Players improve in every competitive game if you look one year ahead, especially if it's only 1-2 years after the release.
I don't think that anybody argued against that.
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Looks like fins amazing code S run that all the SC2 haters were telling us about is....finished.
Sorry I just had to do that. He did play quite well though, but was just way overhyped. Though the overhype happens to many players, not just ex BW ones, seems almost anyone who does comes out of nowhere and does well gets overhyped to a point where unless they win a GSL they will not live up to the hype.
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On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
just wanted to drop by and say that i am totally unfazed! and honestly really perplexed that people still have the shamelessness to jump in here for 'revenge'. how many times have you guys done that and gotten proven wrong all over again? never learn
when was anyone ever proven wrong that said that the top 300 bw pros would not dominate? They havent even switched, so it is impossible to be proven wrong if you said they won't dominate...
On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
favorite nitpicky quote in last few pages: "Intrigue is not, at least entirely correct"
notes:
- forgg was approximately MVP-level in bw. quite good, but there are better. i expect a similar level of performance, probably a bit better.
- losing to leenock isn't bad at all. i wish sc2 players had some metric to understand what a monumental feat reaching iccup A during korean hours at age 13 is. i could try to explain but i don't really feel like it. takeaway point: the kid is good. i mean yeah he was past gsl finalist.
- you do not understand starcraft at all if you think "dominating" means never dropping games. MC obviously stepped up his game today by taking out leenock too despite my low opinion of him. good for him! it would be too boring if he faded to mediocrity as quickly as i expected.
ultimately, it doesn't even matter at all what happens from this point on - the skill level of the scene has already increased so massively since this article that i already feel completely vindicated. if you don't think the games 1 year ago were, well... (you know the f word) then i don't know what to say to you! people don't even mention foreigners anymore in this article haha, that's how much things have changed! have a great day citizens
has the skilllevel increased or has the game developed? The OP implies that players like MC, MVP or NesTea (or Nada or Boxer... all the guys that have been named) already came into SC2 with their maximum RTS skill... So from the OPs point of view only the game could have developed, but not the players.
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On January 11 2012 04:37 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:31 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:49 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs. You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense. The proper response to my question would've been, On January 11 2012 03:34 Megaliskuu wrote:
He wasn't pro, he was A level (on iccup) which is very solid, considering kid was like 13. continuing with absurdly high level trolling, which to be fair to you, Megaliskuu isn't actually trolling either. Here's what you said In response to I like how everyone still ignores the fact that leenock was very good at BW... Only an idiot would assume that you are actually defending Leenock in this case because if you really were supporting that guys point then your just a hypocrite, because you are accusing me of saying the same thing as you, when in reality by your reasoning you were actually doing the same thing I did, except to that guy. If you want to make the point that I'm dense, then you're only proving that you're the denser one. Of course if you weren't actually defending Leenock's BW potential/skill...then I was correct. So either way, you're an idiot. God damn it, you're right! I am an idiot. Why didn't I realize that's where the train of thought started? FML, I'm the dense, ME! Seriously though, I think I to search for a place that serves octopus, I'm starving.
Well, at least he realizes that his Leenock response was completely illogical. He might be sidestepping this fact by spouting inane dumbasseries left and right in this latest response to which I'm replying, but at least deep down he knows he isn't as rational as his ego pushes him to believe. My advice: less time on 4chan, more time outside. Enjoy your lunch
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On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
just wanted to drop by and say that i am totally unfazed! and honestly really perplexed that people still have the shamelessness to jump in here for 'revenge'. how many times have you guys done that and gotten proven wrong all over again? never learn
favorite nitpicky quote in last few pages: "Intrigue is not, at least entirely correct"
notes:
- forgg was approximately MVP-level in bw. quite good, but there are better. i expect a similar level of performance, probably a bit better.
- losing to leenock isn't bad at all. i wish sc2 players had some metric to understand what a monumental feat reaching iccup A during korean hours at age 13 is. i could try to explain but i don't really feel like it. takeaway point: the kid is good. i mean yeah he was past gsl finalist.
- you do not understand starcraft at all if you think "dominating" means never dropping games. MC obviously stepped up his game today by taking out leenock too despite my low opinion of him. good for him! it would be too boring if he faded to mediocrity as quickly as i expected.
ultimately, it doesn't even matter at all what happens from this point on - the skill level of the scene has already increased so massively since this article that i already feel completely vindicated. if you don't think the games 1 year ago were, well... (you know the f word) then i don't know what to say to you! people don't even mention foreigners anymore in this article haha, that's how much things have changed! have a great day citizens
Yeah people keep misunderstanding the article because all you meant to say was actually the most frivolous and trivial thing possible and it's almost impossible for you to not feel vindicated. People should just let this thread die.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
it's "frivolous and trivial" if you're informed, and "sc2-bashing" if you're not.
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On January 11 2012 04:56 intrigue wrote:
it's "frivolous and trivial" if you're informed, and "sc2-bashing" if you're not.
Perhaps it's frivolous and trivial due to the fact that what you presented is largely impenetrable to cogent criticism. It's a fun read, but there is no possible way to constructively debate any points given the fact that not a single top BW player is currently competing in SC2 (I'm talking Flash, not fOrGG)
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On January 11 2012 04:33 Snowen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:00 figq wrote:One more thing, we could use the current GSL ranking top 10. It's not the best ranking, but it will do. 7 BW progamers, 3 others. 1 Mvp BW
2 NesTea BW
3 MC BW
4 MMA BW
5 Polt ---
6 MKP BW
7 July BW
8 TOP ---
9 NaDa BW
10 Jjakji --- This post is pointless in the thread.. the thread isnt about BW players as a whole, its arguing that "modern" BW players are so much better than everyone else, they can literally switch to SC2 this week, and win Code S without losing a match within a month. Face it, even as good as Jaedong or Flash is, if they suddenly started playing SC2 next week, they still wont win Code S until 3-4 tries. Its a whole new game. Posts exist in context, and not all respond to the OP directly. People were trying to claim BW progamers have generally failed in SC2 which is untrue.
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On January 11 2012 00:57 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done!  <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys. I know you tried to troll, but there is actually a legitimate argument in there. As time passes, the young talent that enters SC2 that would've entered BW had SC2 not existed is an opportunity cost weakening of the BW scene. I've hardly seen this mentioned, but assume BW and SC2 stay separate for awhile. If the best new SC2 players are younger talents without previous progamer experience, let's just randomly say Leenock, Maru, and Creator definitively become the zerg, terran, and protoss in a year from now, then it's less likely for top BW to overtake those players, then if Nestea, MVP, and MC are the respective best. Understanding this is a basic exercise in logic.
What does young talent even mean? Jjakji is about as old as Flash.
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On January 11 2012 05:17 StarVe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:57 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done! <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys. I know you tried to troll, but there is actually a legitimate argument in there. As time passes, the young talent that enters SC2 that would've entered BW had SC2 not existed is an opportunity cost weakening of the BW scene. I've hardly seen this mentioned, but assume BW and SC2 stay separate for awhile. If the best new SC2 players are younger talents without previous progamer experience, let's just randomly say Leenock, Maru, and Creator definitively become the zerg, terran, and protoss in a year from now, then it's less likely for top BW to overtake those players, then if Nestea, MVP, and MC are the respective best. Understanding this is a basic exercise in logic. What does young talent even mean? Jjakji is about as old as Flash.
jjakji I believe is 15, I'm pretty sure flash is not 15.
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On January 11 2012 05:21 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 05:17 StarVe wrote:On January 11 2012 00:57 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done! <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys. I know you tried to troll, but there is actually a legitimate argument in there. As time passes, the young talent that enters SC2 that would've entered BW had SC2 not existed is an opportunity cost weakening of the BW scene. I've hardly seen this mentioned, but assume BW and SC2 stay separate for awhile. If the best new SC2 players are younger talents without previous progamer experience, let's just randomly say Leenock, Maru, and Creator definitively become the zerg, terran, and protoss in a year from now, then it's less likely for top BW to overtake those players, then if Nestea, MVP, and MC are the respective best. Understanding this is a basic exercise in logic. What does young talent even mean? Jjakji is about as old as Flash. jjakji I believe is 15, I'm pretty sure flash is not 15.
He is 17, 18 in two months.
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Birth Date: 1994-04-16
@hunts Please check your facts before hitting the "post" button
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of course this thread is bumped the day after forgg's out. too expected lol.
The human capabilities of BW pros is not higher than that of Starcraft II pros.
-Mr. Chae @GSL
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On January 11 2012 05:21 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 05:17 StarVe wrote:On January 11 2012 00:57 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done! <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys. I know you tried to troll, but there is actually a legitimate argument in there. As time passes, the young talent that enters SC2 that would've entered BW had SC2 not existed is an opportunity cost weakening of the BW scene. I've hardly seen this mentioned, but assume BW and SC2 stay separate for awhile. If the best new SC2 players are younger talents without previous progamer experience, let's just randomly say Leenock, Maru, and Creator definitively become the zerg, terran, and protoss in a year from now, then it's less likely for top BW to overtake those players, then if Nestea, MVP, and MC are the respective best. Understanding this is a basic exercise in logic. What does young talent even mean? Jjakji is about as old as Flash. jjakji I believe is 15, I'm pretty sure flash is not 15.  BaBy is younger than Jjakji though, and already 110-99 in BW. All teams keep adding young players in BW, so the (self-described as) troll argument for a counter-article doesn't seem to hold, for now.
edit: One funny thing about this thread is that it could go forever - here's why. Basically at a theoretical point in time when Jaedong, Flash and Bisu all turn to SC2, they could already be replaced by currently better BW players in the current BW scene. Then again people will say that there's an elephant and the SC2 scene is a farce of unsuccessful and post-peak BW players. They will still doubt the SC2 players, considering that much better new BW heroes will be speculated to be better.
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On January 11 2012 04:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
just wanted to drop by and say that i am totally unfazed! and honestly really perplexed that people still have the shamelessness to jump in here for 'revenge'. how many times have you guys done that and gotten proven wrong all over again? never learn when was anyone ever proven wrong that said that the top 300 bw pros would not dominate? They havent even switched, so it is impossible to be proven wrong if you said they won't dominate... Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
favorite nitpicky quote in last few pages: "Intrigue is not, at least entirely correct"
notes:
- forgg was approximately MVP-level in bw. quite good, but there are better. i expect a similar level of performance, probably a bit better.
- losing to leenock isn't bad at all. i wish sc2 players had some metric to understand what a monumental feat reaching iccup A during korean hours at age 13 is. i could try to explain but i don't really feel like it. takeaway point: the kid is good. i mean yeah he was past gsl finalist.
- you do not understand starcraft at all if you think "dominating" means never dropping games. MC obviously stepped up his game today by taking out leenock too despite my low opinion of him. good for him! it would be too boring if he faded to mediocrity as quickly as i expected.
ultimately, it doesn't even matter at all what happens from this point on - the skill level of the scene has already increased so massively since this article that i already feel completely vindicated. if you don't think the games 1 year ago were, well... (you know the f word) then i don't know what to say to you! people don't even mention foreigners anymore in this article haha, that's how much things have changed! have a great day citizens has the skilllevel increased or has the game developed? The OP implies that players like MC, MVP or NesTea (or Nada or Boxer... all the guys that have been named) already came into SC2 with their maximum RTS skill... So from the OPs point of view only the game could have developed, but not the players.
"The OP implies..." - is this a joke? You should read the article again.
You also try to convince people about stuff that is not even in the article - that MC, MVP and NesTea came in with their maximum RTS skill is mentioned nowhere... Ofc the players have developed, and ofc the game has developed but they came in with a better skillset than most other players that play SC2 and that has translated into GSL championships, and again they were borderline BAD players in BW (except for MVP). If that isnt indicative of what the really good players from BW could do with this game, I don't know what is.
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On January 11 2012 05:24 justsayinbro wrote:
of course this thread is bumped the day after forgg's out. too expected lol.
The human capabilities of BW pros is not higher than that of Starcraft II pros.
-Mr. Chae @GSL
This doesnt mean anything - it's a great quote because it actually doesnt mean anything and people will intepret that as "bw players doesnt have a edge over anyone else!" while it only means that the potential of a human beeing doesnt care what game you play. I.e we're all humans and can do similar things. It completely forgoes the fact that those who played BW before have reached a higher level than those that didnt because of extremly good workethics which is why they _have_ an edge.
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despite reading the entire post, i don't quite understand the argument thats being made here. could someone sum it up in a sentence or two for the layman? thanks 
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On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
just wanted to drop by and say that i am totally unfazed! and honestly really perplexed that people still have the shamelessness to jump in here for 'revenge'. how many times have you guys done that and gotten proven wrong all over again?
You really shouldn't be surprised that the Starcraft 2 fans would act this way. This thread is only one small example of the general opinion of Brood War players and fans that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft 2, and by extension all Brood War players and fans are better than their Starcraft 2 equivalents. I suppose it could be said however, that this thread is the central focus of them based on the way it is constantly being brought up by both sides.
I, for one, have grown so tired of hearing about the "good old days" of Brood War that I cannot watch the Day9 Daily, I mute the commentary of the GSL, and I find it difficult to watch State of the Game.
No one denies that the level of play during the GSL open seasons was not what it is today, and I doubt anyone would even think to argue that the level of play will not continue to improve in the future. What Starcraft 2 fans, and I lump myself into the group at this point, are sick of is hearing that what they enjoy is not worth enjoying compared to what has happened in Brood War.
Would you like me to compare Fruit Dealer, NesTea, and MC to people like Freemura, Grrrr..., and H.O.T-Forever? It's easy for you to look back at those players and laugh about how terrible they were compared to Brood War players today, but I bet if you watched them play back then, or at least heard about them play back then, you were just as excited about them as we were about our first champions.
You, Brood War fans, opened this by becoming upset about our joy at a new found passion. I doubt any of us have talked poorly about your players, and many of us have actually gotten back into Brood War, or picked it up for the first time out of curiosity about the game that pioneered our newly acquired passion. The vast majority of Starcraft 2 fans have deep respect for the players and fans of Brood War, as well as for the game itself. We would appreciate it if you could show a little respect and encouragement to us, rather than shutting us down at every opportunity.
I apologize for any disrespect shown in the responses of the Starcraft 2 fans, and I assure you it is fleeting. We just sometimes need to let off some steam after all the tension that is built up from these occasions. So please, try not to be offended by our cries of passion and more than that, try not to trivialize them.
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I will say mission accomplished to the OP, you managed to create drama and a good deal of trolling/fighting by saying in a rather harsh and trollish manner that when people that are really good at an RTS start playing this game they will be really good at it.
Just too bad it was presented in a "class warfare" fashion. Although I think you are a smart guy and you wanted a lot of hits, so good job.
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On January 11 2012 05:46 iplayBANJO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 04:29 intrigue wrote:
just wanted to drop by and say that i am totally unfazed! and honestly really perplexed that people still have the shamelessness to jump in here for 'revenge'. how many times have you guys done that and gotten proven wrong all over again? You really shouldn't be surprised that the Starcraft 2 fans would act this way. This thread is only one small example of the general opinion of Brood War players and fans that Brood War is a better game than Starcraft 2, and by extension all Brood War players and fans are better than their Starcraft 2 equivalents. I suppose it could be said however, that this thread is the central focus of them based on the way it is constantly being brought up by both sides. I, for one, have grown so tired of hearing about the "good old days" of Brood War that I cannot watch the Day9 Daily, I mute the commentary of the GSL, and I find it difficult to watch State of the Game. No one denies that the level of play during the GSL open seasons was not what it is today, and I doubt anyone would even think to argue that the level of play will not continue to improve in the future. What Starcraft 2 fans, and I lump myself into the group at this point, are sick of is hearing that what they enjoy is not worth enjoying compared to what has happened in Brood War. Would you like me to compare Fruit Dealer, NesTea, and MC to people like Freemura, Grrrr..., and H.O.T-Forever? It's easy for you to look back at those players and laugh about how terrible they were compared to Brood War players today, but I bet if you watched them play back then, or at least heard about them play back then, you were just as excited about them as we were about our first champions. You, Brood War fans, opened this by becoming upset about our joy at a new found passion. I doubt any of us have talked poorly about your players, and many of us have actually gotten back into Brood War, or picked it up for the first time out of curiosity about the game that pioneered our newly acquired passion. The vast majority of Starcraft 2 fans have deep respect for the players and fans of Brood War, as well as for the game itself. We would appreciate it if you could show a little respect and encouragement to us, rather than shutting us down at every opportunity. I apologize for any disrespect shown in the responses of the Starcraft 2 fans, and I assure you it is fleeting. We just sometimes need to let off some steam after all the tension that is built up from these occasions. So please, try not to be offended by our cries of passion and more than that, try not to trivialize them.
Good post but save your angst.
BW fans are depressed they are attached to a diminishing game and need to lash out to feel better about themselves.
Let them have their catharsis if it makes them feel any better.
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EPT
