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On January 11 2012 02:09 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 02:01 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious... and not that hard to understand. I'm a fan of both BW(played since SC1 - Season 1) and SC2.... it is possible to enjoy and support both games.
But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. Why is it surprising that players that do well in BW would do well in SC2? If we assume that BW players are some of the best RTS players in the world, I'll go ahead and assume they can play any RTS well and won't be surprised when they do.
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play. Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none. I see SC2/BW more like fencing/kendo than baseball/basketball, where a lot of things translate but not all, and being amazing at one definitely doesn't mean you'll be amazing at the other (but you'll be good at least!). War3's like aikido or something in that comparison, rofl. Anyways, prepare for Hype Train #2 if Hyun takes even one game off Taeja.
Not every example of athlete/sport always works. Problem on this board is sometimes everyone takes everything so literal. The idea though is that if you are one of those select people in the world that have the combination of incredible work ethic with natural ability in a certain field, I'd expect that person to be able to master anything remotely close to that field of work.
Music would be similar. I'd expect a great guitar player with amazing natural ability(dexterity) and work ethic to be able to play a variety of instruments if they wanted. It isn't an insult to the difficulty of those other instruments, like if a great guitar player all the sudden picked up a base guitar and rocked out that it means all base players are less skilled.
The whole point of this thread just again, seems obvious. To the point where I don't get how there can be 200 pages worth of talk about something like this.
I mean can I basically TL;DR this entire thread with :
Players that are great at RTS games and work hard will be great at other RTS games. Ok...? Duh?
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On January 11 2012 01:49 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:57 Sawry wrote:
I know you tried to troll, but there is actually a legitimate argument in there.
As time passes, the young talent that enters SC2 that would've entered BW had SC2 not existed is an opportunity cost weakening of the BW scene. I've hardly seen this mentioned, but assume BW and SC2 stay separate for awhile.
If the best new SC2 players are younger talents without previous progamer experience, let's just randomly say Leenock, Maru, and Creator definitively become the zerg, terran, and protoss in a year from now, then it's less likely for top BW to overtake those players, then if Nestea, MVP, and MC are the respective best.
Understanding this is a basic exercise in logic. I'm pretty sure that a weakening of the BW scene is going to weaken korean SC2 players. BW is just so much harder to play than SC2. I feel like a player that grows up on BW competition might be a stronger player (definitely a faster player) than one who grows up on SC2.
How will we ever know that? And second, isn't this also based on the idea that top BW players all switch to SC2? Why shouldn't they "lead the way" just as in BW, where a younger generation will emulate and eventually surpass them as SC2 players? It's kind of ironic that players who exceeded, among other things, the severe limitations of Starcraft 1 are expected to be limited by a skill ceiling in Starcraft 2. Maybe they'll just prove the skill ceiling is much higher than we thought. It's almost insulting to the very players held in such high regard, thinking that our own limitations should define theirs--or worse, the next generation's.
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On January 11 2012 02:17 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 02:09 babylon wrote:On January 11 2012 02:01 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious... and not that hard to understand. I'm a fan of both BW(played since SC1 - Season 1) and SC2.... it is possible to enjoy and support both games.
But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. Why is it surprising that players that do well in BW would do well in SC2? If we assume that BW players are some of the best RTS players in the world, I'll go ahead and assume they can play any RTS well and won't be surprised when they do.
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play. Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none. I see SC2/BW more like fencing/kendo than baseball/basketball, where a lot of things translate but not all, and being amazing at one definitely doesn't mean you'll be amazing at the other (but you'll be good at least!). War3's like aikido or something in that comparison, rofl. Anyways, prepare for Hype Train #2 if Hyun takes even one game off Taeja. Not every example of athlete/sport always works. Problem on this board is sometimes everyone takes everything so literal. The idea though is that if you are one of those select people in the world that have the combination of incredible work ethic with natural ability in a certain field, I'd expect that person to be able to master anything remotely close to that field of work. Music would be similar. I'd expect a great guitar player with amazing natural ability(dexterity) and work ethic to be able to play a variety of instruments if they wanted. It isn't an insult to the difficulty of those other instruments, like if a great guitar player all the sudden picked up a base guitar and rocked out that it means all base players are less skilled. The whole point of this thread just again, seems obvious. To the point where I don't get how there can be 200 pages worth of talk about something like this. I mean can I basically TL;DR this entire thread with : Players that are great at RTS games and work hard will be great at other RTS games. Ok...? Duh?
I'll give you a serious reply. You're making a common flaw.
But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar.
This is the key quote in your statement, you don't know how similar these games are.
Assume someone is #1 at one thing. You're assuming that person will be comparably great at another field that has a high, but not high enough percentage of similarities. You used Jim Brown, saying he could play any mainstream sport (you using a specific example, probably causes you receiving specifically literal replies). I took Michael Jordan, a basketball player, the #3 sport in the USA, and said he sarcastically he'd be a great baseball player, #2 sport in the USA. Obviously, he tried and failed.
Now let's say BW and SC2 overlap at a very high percentage, in terms of required variables to be great. The key is how high does that number have to be? Words like "these games are similar" or "these games are less similar" don't mean much of anything. Is it quantifiable, and does it have to be 100%, 99%, 97%, 95%, 70%, etc? Once you get below a hypothetical number which is likely to skew towards the high 90-some percentile, then it's quite possible that your supposed Flash-type BW player, no longer has enough to be a top player in the second suppposed game. He may end up #10 in SC2! Who's #10 right now in SC2? Who really cares, because he hasn't won a GSL probably, and there's another 10 guys just as good as him.
It's less likely the more similar the games, and the greater the talent (i.e. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu), however you simply don't know the composite of variables required. You are making assertions, arguing with others doing the same.
A scenario like the following could play out:
Take the #7 player in BW, he could have skills that aren't useful in BW, but useful in SC2. He may become the greatest SC2 player. Meanwhile, the #1-6 players in BW, maybe only wind up spread amongst the top 32 Code S players, but nothing that really puts them head and shoulders above the field, because what them that great in BW is no longer applicable in SC2.
Compare apples to apples. It's ridiculous for you to assume Kobe Bryant could be a top soccer pro. He's not competing against some good college players, he's competing against the hungriest, most talented people at what they do. It's unlikely he has a work ethic edge over the very best ones. Now how much of his innate basketball talent needs to transfer over to be comparably great at soccer? It should be obvious that the number has to be pretty high.
All the pro BW players are going to be better than 99.99% of people who touch the game. They'll literally be Korean Grandmasters. However, they're competing with a select few great players who have excelled at SC2. These people have proven they have the characteristics that make them great SC2 players. The more time SC2 has to introduce and develop it's own non-pro-BW background talent (e.g. Leenock, Maru, Creator, etc.), the less likely it is for top BW to completely dominate the top SC2.
You don't know, so saying things like
I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious
followed by
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar?
is ridiculous. You just don't know. If you actually could predict things like this with such certainty, you could easily make tens of millions of dollars over the next ten years, and eventually venture into hundreds of millions in another field.
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I like how everyone still ignores the fact that leenock was very good at BW...
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Oh my god when will this thread just diiiiiiiiie -.-
We just need to let it go, the arguments are barely even related to the OP at this point lol
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On January 11 2012 03:02 Megaliskuu wrote:
I like how everyone still ignores the fact that leenock was very good at BW...
Just wondering, what race did Leenock play in BW? It just seems that a lot of big name zergs in SC2 were terrans in BW lol...
losira, drg, idra come to mind.
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Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur.
The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible.
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On January 11 2012 03:00 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 02:17 FLuE wrote:On January 11 2012 02:09 babylon wrote:On January 11 2012 02:01 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play. Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none. I see SC2/BW more like fencing/kendo than baseball/basketball, where a lot of things translate but not all, and being amazing at one definitely doesn't mean you'll be amazing at the other (but you'll be good at least!). War3's like aikido or something in that comparison, rofl. Anyways, prepare for Hype Train #2 if Hyun takes even one game off Taeja. Not every example of athlete/sport always works. Problem on this board is sometimes everyone takes everything so literal. The idea though is that if you are one of those select people in the world that have the combination of incredible work ethic with natural ability in a certain field, I'd expect that person to be able to master anything remotely close to that field of work. Music would be similar. I'd expect a great guitar player with amazing natural ability(dexterity) and work ethic to be able to play a variety of instruments if they wanted. It isn't an insult to the difficulty of those other instruments, like if a great guitar player all the sudden picked up a base guitar and rocked out that it means all base players are less skilled. The whole point of this thread just again, seems obvious. To the point where I don't get how there can be 200 pages worth of talk about something like this. I mean can I basically TL;DR this entire thread with : Players that are great at RTS games and work hard will be great at other RTS games. Ok...? Duh? I'll give you a serious reply. You're making a common flaw. Show nested quote +But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. This is the key quote in your statement, you don't know how similar these games are. Assume someone is #1 at one thing. You're assuming that person will be comparably great at another field that has a high, but not high enough percentage of similarities. You used Jim Brown, saying he could play any mainstream sport (you using a specific example, probably causes you receiving specifically literal replies). I took Michael Jordan, a basketball player, the #3 sport in the USA, and said he sarcastically he'd be a great baseball player, #2 sport in the USA. Obviously, he tried and failed. Now let's say BW and SC2 overlap at a very high percentage, in terms of required variables to be great. The key is how high does that number have to be? Words like "these games are similar" or "these games are less similar" don't mean much of anything. Is it quantifiable, and does it have to be 100%, 99%, 97%, 95%, 70%, etc? Once you get below a hypothetical number which is likely to skew towards the high 90-some percentile, then it's quite possible that your supposed Flash-type BW player, no longer has enough to be a top player in the second suppposed game. He may end up #10 in SC2! Who's #10 right now in SC2? Who really cares, because he hasn't won a GSL probably, and there's another 10 guys just as good as him. It's less likely the more similar the games, and the greater the talent (i.e. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu), however you simply don't know the composite of variables required. You are making assertions, arguing with others doing the same. A scenario like the following could play out: Take the #7 player in BW, he could have skills that aren't useful in BW, but useful in SC2. He may become the greatest SC2 player. Meanwhile, the #1-6 players in BW, maybe only wind up spread amongst the top 32 Code S players, but nothing that really puts them head and shoulders above the field, because what them that great in BW is no longer applicable in SC2. Compare apples to apples. It's ridiculous for you to assume Kobe Bryant could be a top soccer pro. He's not competing against some good college players, he's competing against the hungriest, most talented people at what they do. It's unlikely he has a work ethic edge over the very best ones. Now how much of his innate basketball talent needs to transfer over to be comparably great at soccer? It should be obvious that the number has to be pretty high. All the pro BW players are going to be better than 99.99% of people who touch the game. They'll literally be Korean Grandmasters. However, they're competing with a select few great players who have excelled at SC2. These people have proven they have the characteristics that make them great SC2 players. The more time SC2 has to introduce and develop it's own non-pro-BW background talent (e.g. Leenock, Maru, Creator, etc.), the less likely it is for top BW to completely dominate the top SC2. You don't know, so saying things like Show nested quote +I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious followed by Show nested quote +So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? is ridiculous. You just don't know. If you actually could predict things like this with such certainty, you could easily make tens of millions of dollars over the next ten years, and eventually venture into hundreds of millions in another field.
You can't compare the difference between Basketball and Baseball to the difference of SC1/SC2.
Basketball and Baseball have completely different skill sets.
The skill sets that will make you good at SC1 (Multitasking, strategic thinking, APM, poise under pressure) are directly transferrable to SC2.
And, for the record, if Michael Jordan has taken all his natural talent + competitive drive and trained at Baseball since highschool is probably would be the GOAT for Baseball.
I'd love to see Lebron James play tight-end in the NFL....
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On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible.
Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense?
+ Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice.
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He wasn't pro, he was A level (on iccup) which is very solid, considering kid was like 13.
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On January 11 2012 03:02 Megaliskuu wrote:
I like how everyone still ignores the fact that leenock was very good at BW...
According to the OP he was absolute garbage at BW, remember? And would get completely crushed by hundreds of players that were better than him at BW if they switched to SC2 and gave it enough time? One of these players being ForGG. Who in fact did switch, and did not in fact crush players that were worse than him at BW.
To everyone in the thread: Just because you think that BW success is a reasonable predictor of SC2 success does not mean you agree with the OP. The OP took it way way way further than that, and that is what people are salty about. No one is offended by the belief that Flash might do pretty good at SC2. They are offended by the OP. Re-read it if you have forgotten what it says.
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I'm probably the 100th person to say this, but I don't understand this argument. Will BW pro's do well in SC2 if they swap? Yes. Will they obliterate all the competition? No. Is there a chance they will be be GSL champions? Sure.
Why does this thread insist on dealing in absolutes? THEY WILL BE BEST/THEY WILL SUCK!!!1111 go go internet
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On January 11 2012 03:37 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:02 Megaliskuu wrote:
I like how everyone still ignores the fact that leenock was very good at BW... According to the OP he was absolute garbage at BW, remember? And would get completely crushed by hundreds of players that were better than him at BW if they switched to SC2 and gave it enough time? One of these players being ForGG. Who in fact did switch, and did not in fact crush players that were worse than him at BW. To everyone in the thread: Just because you think that BW success is a reasonable predictor of SC2 success does not mean you agree with the OP. The OP took it way way way further than that, and that is what people are salty about. No one is offended by the belief that Flash might do pretty good at SC2. They are offended by the OP. Re-read it if you have forgotten what it says.
He was 13 years old. Even Flash wasn't a god at age 13. The fact that he was A/A- on iccup (at age 13) as someone said shows he definetely had a tremendous amount of promise.
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On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice.
You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs.
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On January 11 2012 03:37 Alacast wrote:
I'm probably the 100th person to say this, but I don't understand this argument. Will BW pro's do well in SC2 if they swap? Yes. Will they obliterate all the competition? No. Is there a chance they will be be GSL champions? Sure.
Why does this thread insist on dealing in absolutes? THEY WILL BE BEST/THEY WILL SUCK!!!1111 go go internet
No one has said they will suck. The OP made it sound like they will be the best, people are arguing that this has been disproven while others claim that it hasn't.
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We're still bumping this every time forGG plays?
I mean, this should be obvious to everyone by now. If you are mechanically good at BW you will be mechanically good at SC2. If you are used to a BW practice environment then you are likely to continue that practice in SC2. Therefore many BW players would do very very well in SC2.
The problem was that the OP decided that this meant because we don't have all the top pros from BW, that every competition in SC2 is half as good as it could be and is comparable to an amateur league next to to the real professional competition of BW. This doesn't logically follow for several reasons, including that it's a different game so just because say, Calm was better than Zergbong doesn't mean that Nestea wouldn't still be better at SC2 if Calm switched (avoiding using Flash/JD/Bisu as examples because as Hot_Bid says in the OP these guys are outliers). Also SC2 is probably going to attract all the up and coming talent so in 5 years time we may well have the next Flash who could've dominated BW if SC2 had never come out.
At the time of this articles writing, the competition in SC2 was not fantastic because it's a new game, not because of a dearth of talent. But it gets better every GSL these days, we see great play from nearly all the Ro32 players. Saying it's a farce because JD/Flash aren't in it is as dumb as saying no SC2 tournament win is a victory unless you beat MVP on the way.
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On January 11 2012 03:40 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:32 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 03:30 1Eris1 wrote:Right because there is going to be a liquipedia page for every up and coming amateur. The guy switched before he really started playing professionally. It's impossible to know if he would have been a god or terrible. Am I being trolled at a ridiculously high level, or are you dense? + Show Spoiler +I've left you an out, I'm being nice. You linked me a page showing Leenock doesn't have a liquidpedia page in BW and are trying to use that to argue he's bad. I'm saying that he was an good amateur and up and coming, but there usually aren't pages made for amateurs.
You are dense. I wasn't making that argument. I was pointing out that he was an amateur. Then you proceed to make the point I made, assuming I was making a different point, because you are dense.
The proper response to my question would've been,
On January 11 2012 03:34 Megaliskuu wrote:
He wasn't pro, he was A level (on iccup) which is very solid, considering kid was like 13.
continuing with absurdly high level trolling, which to be fair to you, Megaliskuu isn't actually trolling either.
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On January 11 2012 03:31 RinconH wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 03:00 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 02:17 FLuE wrote:On January 11 2012 02:09 babylon wrote:On January 11 2012 02:01 Sawry wrote:On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play. Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none. I see SC2/BW more like fencing/kendo than baseball/basketball, where a lot of things translate but not all, and being amazing at one definitely doesn't mean you'll be amazing at the other (but you'll be good at least!). War3's like aikido or something in that comparison, rofl. Anyways, prepare for Hype Train #2 if Hyun takes even one game off Taeja. Not every example of athlete/sport always works. Problem on this board is sometimes everyone takes everything so literal. The idea though is that if you are one of those select people in the world that have the combination of incredible work ethic with natural ability in a certain field, I'd expect that person to be able to master anything remotely close to that field of work. Music would be similar. I'd expect a great guitar player with amazing natural ability(dexterity) and work ethic to be able to play a variety of instruments if they wanted. It isn't an insult to the difficulty of those other instruments, like if a great guitar player all the sudden picked up a base guitar and rocked out that it means all base players are less skilled. The whole point of this thread just again, seems obvious. To the point where I don't get how there can be 200 pages worth of talk about something like this. I mean can I basically TL;DR this entire thread with : Players that are great at RTS games and work hard will be great at other RTS games. Ok...? Duh? I'll give you a serious reply. You're making a common flaw. But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. This is the key quote in your statement, you don't know how similar these games are. Assume someone is #1 at one thing. You're assuming that person will be comparably great at another field that has a high, but not high enough percentage of similarities. You used Jim Brown, saying he could play any mainstream sport (you using a specific example, probably causes you receiving specifically literal replies). I took Michael Jordan, a basketball player, the #3 sport in the USA, and said he sarcastically he'd be a great baseball player, #2 sport in the USA. Obviously, he tried and failed. Now let's say BW and SC2 overlap at a very high percentage, in terms of required variables to be great. The key is how high does that number have to be? Words like "these games are similar" or "these games are less similar" don't mean much of anything. Is it quantifiable, and does it have to be 100%, 99%, 97%, 95%, 70%, etc? Once you get below a hypothetical number which is likely to skew towards the high 90-some percentile, then it's quite possible that your supposed Flash-type BW player, no longer has enough to be a top player in the second suppposed game. He may end up #10 in SC2! Who's #10 right now in SC2? Who really cares, because he hasn't won a GSL probably, and there's another 10 guys just as good as him. It's less likely the more similar the games, and the greater the talent (i.e. Flash, Jaedong, Bisu), however you simply don't know the composite of variables required. You are making assertions, arguing with others doing the same. A scenario like the following could play out: Take the #7 player in BW, he could have skills that aren't useful in BW, but useful in SC2. He may become the greatest SC2 player. Meanwhile, the #1-6 players in BW, maybe only wind up spread amongst the top 32 Code S players, but nothing that really puts them head and shoulders above the field, because what them that great in BW is no longer applicable in SC2. Compare apples to apples. It's ridiculous for you to assume Kobe Bryant could be a top soccer pro. He's not competing against some good college players, he's competing against the hungriest, most talented people at what they do. It's unlikely he has a work ethic edge over the very best ones. Now how much of his innate basketball talent needs to transfer over to be comparably great at soccer? It should be obvious that the number has to be pretty high. All the pro BW players are going to be better than 99.99% of people who touch the game. They'll literally be Korean Grandmasters. However, they're competing with a select few great players who have excelled at SC2. These people have proven they have the characteristics that make them great SC2 players. The more time SC2 has to introduce and develop it's own non-pro-BW background talent (e.g. Leenock, Maru, Creator, etc.), the less likely it is for top BW to completely dominate the top SC2. You don't know, so saying things like I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious followed by So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? is ridiculous. You just don't know. If you actually could predict things like this with such certainty, you could easily make tens of millions of dollars over the next ten years, and eventually venture into hundreds of millions in another field. You can't compare the difference between Basketball and Baseball to the difference of SC1/SC2. Basketball and Baseball have completely different skill sets. The skill sets that will make you good at SC1 (Multitasking, strategic thinking, APM, poise under pressure) are directly transferrable to SC2. And, for the record, if Michael Jordan has taken all his natural talent + competitive drive and trained at Baseball since highschool is probably would be the GOAT for Baseball. I'd love to see Lebron James play tight-end in the NFL....
You failed to understand my post. Thank to guy who PM'd me, for pointing out this flaw in critical thinking that people who read my post, are continuing to make. Hope some of you don't continue to follow this absurd logic flaw. If I were some of you, I'd worry about using my brain in ways that differentiate me from an elephant, rather than the "Elephant in the Room".
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IgJo1.png)
