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On January 10 2012 23:59 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:37 FunnyPicture wrote:On January 10 2012 23:15 Tobberoth wrote:
I think it's important to also note that this article is old now and is just being needlessly bumped. It was written in may 2011, that's more than half a year ago. The scene has changed a lot since then and there's definitely a more serious feel now to the pros. When this article was written, the memory of Fruitdealer being really strong without practicing seriously was still fresh in memory, now, the same thing seems quite ridiculous, at least in the korean scene. Players ARE investing a lot of time to be good. While it's different from BW, I'd say that the time since this article was written has proven that the seriousness of training regimen etc is raised automatically with time as players get better. If Flash or Jaedong switched over, yeah, they would probably become top code S very quickly. But as they did, other players would be forced to work harder to stay competitive, and it wouldn't be such an obvious domination. I disagree. Most of his points still hold true. Starcraft fans are still anxiously awaiting the most prominent BW stars switch to sc2. ForGG made the switch with almost immediate results. I still feel like even the most worshipped stars underperform and collect wins even when playing sloppy. He has been playing it for a really long time. ForGG was awesome at BW, played SC2 for many months, and was able to get to Code S. Yeah, it's impressive. Then again, he didn't dominate when Leenoch handed him his butt. I doubt ForGG would claim Code S is a farce after his games.
Not sure I understand your point.
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On January 11 2012 00:00 figq wrote:One more thing, we could use the current GSL ranking top 10. It's not the best ranking, but it will do. 7 BW progamers, 3 others. 1 Mvp BW
2 NesTea BW
3 MC BW
4 MMA BW
5 Polt ---
6 MKP BW
7 July BW
8 TOP ---
9 NaDa BW
10 Jjakji ---
Curious to see what background jjakji, top, and polt have. WC3? Anything?
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Polt was a non-pro WC3 gamer. He played Human.
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On January 11 2012 00:02 Keone wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:59 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:53 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 22:52 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:44 deadmau wrote:On January 10 2012 22:25 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 10 2012 22:20 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 22:11 Kyuki wrote:
Ugh, so tired of all the people with practically no BW experience coming here with ForGG as a argument as to why this thread is trash... Also one series... When he left the BW scene he was at best mediocre, sadly. After his MSL victory in 08, he was short of 50% winrate, and in the end he was closer to 40% winrate and didnt make anything happen in the individual leagues either. Sure, still one of the "best" at the time of the switch, but still not great by any means. Timing attacks was his game, and alot of his games was very all-in oriented.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's a great player and I'm sure he'll do great in code A and climb on no doubt, but using him as a argument is stupid. He's just one of many players that will eventually switch and those that are at the highest level of broodwar right now Will smash this game undoubtly.
People still forget that almost all of the top players in Code S are former BW players.. The point is that when the BETTER BW players switch over, it wont take that long before there will be a major swing in the top besides a few players that are really strong.
T_T Actually no, the point of this article, as stated by the OP himself, is that a player like ForGG and some hundred players worse than him would dominate the SC2 scene within months of switching. Well after 11 months of practice, ForGG proved that this was inaccurate. The point was never that the great BW pros would do great and probably dominate, claiming that now is a cowardly cop out. Actually that's exactly what I said in the article if you read my part. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Relephant quote: Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. ForGG, despite all the fun hype we've been giving him, is not even on the level of Sea Kal Calm etc. What Hot_Bid claims is obvious, just bunch of SC2-only generation of players bitching in here atm. Yeah. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. So they'll do good... except they might not. That's not a prediction at all. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Now there's a prediction. Except it only applies to the top 2 players in the world. The OP cast a much wider net though, I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. 300 players that can be instantly better at SC2 than the current players. I guess fOrGG was 301? Potential is the keyword And is a huge copout in my opinion because it doesn't predict anything. Any BW pro that comes to SC2 and fails and you can say 'well he didn't live up to his potential'. Any BW pro that comes and dominates you can point to and say 'see I was right!'. Hypothesis can't be disproven. So in your opinion, ForGG getting to this point was a "failure"? ... may I remind you that this is GSL Code S Ro32? AKA the top 32 players in the world?
It's certainly a failure by the standards of the initial post. If Intrigue was correct, ForGG should be the best SC2 player, or at least top 3. Intrigue is not, at least entirely, correct. SC2 clearly takes some different skills than BW. BW fans might not like this or appreciate the skills needed in SC2, but they are there.
While it is not surprising that BW pros have a leg-up in RTS experience and training that applies to SC2, their skill in SC:BW clearly does not directly transfer 100%. Otherwise Nestea would not have done so well, and ForGG would be godly RIGHT NOW.
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On January 11 2012 00:14 bbm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:00 figq wrote:One more thing, we could use the current GSL ranking top 10. It's not the best ranking, but it will do. 7 BW progamers, 3 others. 1 Mvp BW
2 NesTea BW
3 MC BW
4 MMA BW
5 Polt ---
6 MKP BW
7 July BW
8 TOP ---
9 NaDa BW
10 Jjakji --- Curious to see what background jjakji, top, and polt have. WC3? Anything?
What does that list has to do with this thread? These are the players that the thread called a farce and that would be gone when BW came.
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In ForGGs case it was the amount of time it took him to get to code S rather than him actually being in it.
Leenock did beat him pretty convincingly in game two, but game one was pretty close and the manner in which ForGG lost was more game sense and bad decision making than anything else. His mechanics were as good as most Code S players, and as Keone pointed out, the 32 Code S players are some of the best 32 players in the world, so just him being there was impressive enough.
If anything, the way the matches went today support this article. Leenock has been in GSL since long ago, and is a GSL runner-up/MLG champion. ForGG practiced a couple of months and went undefeated in GSL until today, where he gave the arguably best zerg and toss a good run for their money. For a guy who made the switch to SC2 relatively late, his gameplay was damn good, and if he keeps practicing and more like him make the switch then current SC2 progamers are in for a nightmare.
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On January 10 2012 22:50 aderum wrote:
The problem now with people saying forGG shouldnt count is that the same people have been comming here/linking here every time that he have won something. Its quite stupid actually.
I for one have never written in this thread prior to when ForGG just lost today, so it's just not true.
I just think that people dont understand the article, which is both good and bad. It clearly spurs debate and that's fine and dandy, but there are some people (like always) who jump a train to tjuu tjuu whatever is on their mind and project it into, or from, a topic that could be missread and missunderstood.
When Intrigue said that 300 semi-pros could come over and dominate he also never said that the current top players would get stomped (which seems to be coming back again and again in this thread). Point is clearly made in Hot_Bids paragraph that when more people like MVP transitions over, the lesser Code S players will be phased out (be it now, or when heart of the swarm hits) and that's when the "real" best of the best competition will begin.
The words farce and whatnot are there, and used, as a mean to invoke feelings which I think has been very succesful. It's a word that, while it holds some truth, also just makes people angry because it bashes on their feelings and their worldview (or SC2 worldview rather) and that's not strange at all.
People who understand how much the BW pros practice and how good the current top players are will easily see that they will do insanely good. What I heared on some twitter was that Hydra was doing quite well on the korean ladder and he didnt even know how to spread creep or whatever. Some other pro that started playing made masters without knowing that queens could inject larvae... I think that's pretty telling. Dont quote me on the names and the exact happening, because I can't find the scource, so take it for what it is.
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On January 11 2012 00:13 FunnyPicture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:59 Tobberoth wrote:On January 10 2012 23:37 FunnyPicture wrote:On January 10 2012 23:15 Tobberoth wrote:
I think it's important to also note that this article is old now and is just being needlessly bumped. It was written in may 2011, that's more than half a year ago. The scene has changed a lot since then and there's definitely a more serious feel now to the pros. When this article was written, the memory of Fruitdealer being really strong without practicing seriously was still fresh in memory, now, the same thing seems quite ridiculous, at least in the korean scene. Players ARE investing a lot of time to be good. While it's different from BW, I'd say that the time since this article was written has proven that the seriousness of training regimen etc is raised automatically with time as players get better. If Flash or Jaedong switched over, yeah, they would probably become top code S very quickly. But as they did, other players would be forced to work harder to stay competitive, and it wouldn't be such an obvious domination. I disagree. Most of his points still hold true. Starcraft fans are still anxiously awaiting the most prominent BW stars switch to sc2. ForGG made the switch with almost immediate results. I still feel like even the most worshipped stars underperform and collect wins even when playing sloppy. He has been playing it for a really long time. ForGG was awesome at BW, played SC2 for many months, and was able to get to Code S. Yeah, it's impressive. Then again, he didn't dominate when Leenoch handed him his butt. I doubt ForGG would claim Code S is a farce after his games. Not sure I understand your point.
To your first point we know it wasnt immediate because we know he had been playing for several months before he even officially announced his return. I had stated before that I didnt expect much of ForGG since the net gross of our experience with him was beating an unproven sage, being part of a game where Polt folded to 2 banshees, and playing some ugly games against Julyzerg. However his games in Code S show that he will have no problem at least returning to the up/down matches and will be a likely candidate for Code S next season and could even be a potential ro8 automatic.
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On January 11 2012 00:21 chillswithhippos wrote:
ForGG practiced a couple of months and went undefeated in GSL until today, where he gave the arguably best zerg and toss a good run for their money. For a guy who made the switch to SC2 relatively late, his gameplay was damn good, and if he keeps practicing and more like him make the switch then current SC2 progamers are in for a nightmare.
But that's wrong, forGG has had ladder accounts in GM since January last year or so
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On January 10 2012 20:12 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 19:07 Waxangel wrote:On January 10 2012 19:05 StarStruck wrote:
Are you guys going to bump this everytime a ex BW Pro gets beaten? ._.
Impending 1000 pages. well, the TL staff bumps it whenever an ex BW pro wins, so I guess it's only fair D:  <3 I personally hated almost everything about the article in question, but it does result in good discussion, and exBW vs SC2 makes for amazing games (Which Leenock won like a boss my I add)
Of course you did. Everyone on the internet seems to find things more offensive than they actually are.
Leenock was an ex-BW player as well fyi. Given he was only a BaBy at the time. I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone say he isn't really good.
It's much easier to give you accurate predictions at events like MLG because of the format. Its very easy to see when a player's on a total tear and not letting up. By early Saturday I knew he would probably win the whole thing. No bones about it.
So yeaaaaaah boy!
What I find more surprising about today's results is
+ Show Spoiler +MC finding a way to inch out of the group of death. Didn't really he would make it, but he did by a game.
P.S. Anyone want to start a Shriners club? :D
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Can't wait for Flash to come over and crush the futile dreams of people who is even concidering the possibility of him, God, beaten by someone like MVP or Nestea. LOL. This kid is a wonder, miles and miles ahead.
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Will this thread never die? -_-'
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On January 11 2012 00:40 Icky wrote:
Will this thread never die? -_-'
Never ever
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So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room?
How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world.
I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done!
 <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys.
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On January 11 2012 00:41 Linwelin wrote:Never ever
ever ever?
On the oak tree, I hope we feel like this forever
Forever, forever, ever, forever, ever?
Forever never seems that long until you're grown
And notice that the day by day rule can't be too long
;o
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On January 11 2012 00:17 trias_e wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:02 Keone wrote:On January 10 2012 22:59 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:53 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 22:52 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:44 deadmau wrote:On January 10 2012 22:25 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 10 2012 22:20 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 22:11 Kyuki wrote:
Ugh, so tired of all the people with practically no BW experience coming here with ForGG as a argument as to why this thread is trash... Also one series... When he left the BW scene he was at best mediocre, sadly. After his MSL victory in 08, he was short of 50% winrate, and in the end he was closer to 40% winrate and didnt make anything happen in the individual leagues either. Sure, still one of the "best" at the time of the switch, but still not great by any means. Timing attacks was his game, and alot of his games was very all-in oriented.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's a great player and I'm sure he'll do great in code A and climb on no doubt, but using him as a argument is stupid. He's just one of many players that will eventually switch and those that are at the highest level of broodwar right now Will smash this game undoubtly.
People still forget that almost all of the top players in Code S are former BW players.. The point is that when the BETTER BW players switch over, it wont take that long before there will be a major swing in the top besides a few players that are really strong.
T_T Actually no, the point of this article, as stated by the OP himself, is that a player like ForGG and some hundred players worse than him would dominate the SC2 scene within months of switching. Well after 11 months of practice, ForGG proved that this was inaccurate. The point was never that the great BW pros would do great and probably dominate, claiming that now is a cowardly cop out. Actually that's exactly what I said in the article if you read my part. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Relephant quote: Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. ForGG, despite all the fun hype we've been giving him, is not even on the level of Sea Kal Calm etc. What Hot_Bid claims is obvious, just bunch of SC2-only generation of players bitching in here atm. Yeah. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. So they'll do good... except they might not. That's not a prediction at all. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Now there's a prediction. Except it only applies to the top 2 players in the world. The OP cast a much wider net though, I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. 300 players that can be instantly better at SC2 than the current players. I guess fOrGG was 301? Potential is the keyword And is a huge copout in my opinion because it doesn't predict anything. Any BW pro that comes to SC2 and fails and you can say 'well he didn't live up to his potential'. Any BW pro that comes and dominates you can point to and say 'see I was right!'. Hypothesis can't be disproven. So in your opinion, ForGG getting to this point was a "failure"? ... may I remind you that this is GSL Code S Ro32? AKA the top 32 players in the world? It's certainly a failure by the standards of the initial post. If Intrigue was correct, ForGG should be the best SC2 player, or at least top 3. Intrigue is not, at least entirely, correct. SC2 clearly takes some different skills than BW. BW fans might not like this or appreciate the skills needed in SC2, but they are there. While it is not surprising that BW pros have a leg-up in RTS experience and training that applies to SC2, their skill in SC:BW clearly does not directly transfer 100%. Otherwise Nestea would not have done so well, and ForGG would be godly RIGHT NOW.
Forgg is godly right now. And anyone doubting he has the ability to win a GSL is mistaken. Intrigue might just be wrong about how long it takes.
On January 11 2012 00:40 Icky wrote:
Will this thread never die? -_-'
Nope because people will always be provocative and more annoyingly people will always be provoked.
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On January 11 2012 00:00 figq wrote:One more thing, we could use the current GSL ranking top 10. It's not the best ranking, but it will do. 7 BW progamers, 3 others. 1 Mvp BW
2 NesTea BW
3 MC BW
4 MMA BW
5 Polt ---
6 MKP BW
7 July BW
8 TOP ---
9 NaDa BW
10 Jjakji ---
What does this prove?
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On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done! <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys.
Not sure if trolling...
or right.
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On January 11 2012 00:40 Icky wrote:
Will this thread never die? -_-'
My thoughts exactly. I see no rational discussion to be had from this, let alone nearly a full year later. The article isn't thought provoking, it should never have been printed, and people should never have payed any attention to it. Its not like its a surprise that a lot of the current best BW gamers will most likely be good at sc2 also.
Its like stating that Fifa 12 is a farce because a lot of the best people still using Fifa 11 are most likely going to be good at ff12 as well *shock*
You could insert any game above as well. Dota 2 vs Hon/LoL could be interesting. Fighting games like Tekken. Cs 1.6 vs CSS.. I could go on forever. Its retarded to pay any mind to it whatsoever. They are different games, and no one is better at anything until they prove themselves otherwise.
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On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done! <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys.
There are plenty of new up and coming players in the BW scene and 90 % of the ones that switched could not compete with the fierce competition and thus tried their luck in SC2. If anything, SC2 is the retirement home of old BW players that have seen their best days in the BW scene. In the future, when SC2 have developed enough there wont be any influx of BW players and the new stars will be young players without a BW background, but that is not case just yet.
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EPT
